Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+45
Krepost
Big_Gazza
Broski
lyle6
Dima
lancelot
owais.usmani
ALAMO
The-thing-next-door
flamming_python
Firebird
LMFS
GarryB
dino00
GunshipDemocracy
Hole
kumbor
Tsavo Lion
Singular_Transform
Enera
chicken
gaurav
hoom
medo
Isos
max steel
Arrow
George1
Werewolf
navyfield
magnumcromagnon
Cyberspec
Mike E
Viktor
Deep Throat
TR1
Vann7
TheArmenian
ricky123
Austin
IronsightSniper
SerbNationalist
Admin
nightcrawler
Russian Patriot
49 posters

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Podlodka77 Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:51 pm

    LENTA.RU

    3K55 "Bastion" will be rearmed on hypersonic missiles THIS YEAR... And RANGE you ask ? More than 1000 kilometers..
    Original text and some translation

    БРАВ ВМФ России перевооружат комплексы «Бастион» на новые гиперзвуковые ракеты в 2022 году
    В 2021 году береговые ракетные-артиллерийские войска (БРАВ) ВМФ России укрепили свои позиции. Министерство обороны страны решило расширить их возможности в этом году, пишут «Известия».
    Информаторы в Минобороны рассказали, что в составе БРАВ ВМФ России появятся дополнительные подразделения. На данный момент в БРАВ включены около восьми дивизионов комплекса «Бал». Планируется, что в скором времени начнется их перевооружение на новые ракеты. Первыми оснастят бригады Северного и Черноморских флотов.
    Кроме того, ведомство перевооружит береговые ракетные комплексы (БРК) «Бастион» на новые гиперзвуковые ракеты в 2022 году. Это поможет увеличить дальность действия комплексов до 1-1,5 тысячи километров.


    Coastal troops of the Russian navy will be REARMED to new hypersonic missiles.
    In 2021 coastal missile-artilery troops of Russian navy have had reinforced their positions. Russian MOD has decided to spread capabilities of missile-artilery troops. Informants in the Ministry of Defense have said that additional units will appear in the BRAV of the Russian Navy. At the moment, BRAV includes about eight divisions of the "Ball" complex. It is planned that their rearmament with new missiles will soon begin. The first will equipped the brigades of the Northern and Black Sea fleets.

    In addition, the department will re-equip the Bastion coastal missile systems (BRK) with new hypersonic missiles in 2022. This will help to increase the range of the complexes to 1-1.5 thousand kilometers.


    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total

    LMFS likes this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2626
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Arrow Sun Jan 09, 2022 11:59 pm

    Bastion systems will be equipped with Cirkon missiles.

    Broski likes this post

    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:11 am

    Arrow wrote:Bastion systems will be equipped with Cirkon missiles.

    Yes, so it seems.
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6279
    Points : 6371
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  ALAMO Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:15 am

    Will look very nice, parked on some random Kuril island Very Happy

    LMFS likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38473
    Points : 38973
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:28 am

    Which has interesting implications for countries near Russian borders and coastal areas...

    For instance coastal batteries near St Petersberg or Kaliningrad need to appreciate that these mach 10 1,000km range plus missiles are fully multirole and can be used against ground as well as sea targets... that is going to shift the balance... wonder how many kms from Russian territory they will be basing those F-35s they all seem to want to get...
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2626
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Arrow Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:35 am

    Coastal defense system with Cirkon is a completely new quality. Even without a fleet, these complexes can control entire bodies of water such as the Black Sea, the Baltic Sea, the Okhotsk Sea,Part of the Mediterranean Sea and the Barents Sea. Part of the Arctic, in fact. All this apart from the fleet. As Garry writes about the possibility of attacks by ground targets. I think the US will want to return to the INF soon Laughing

    GarryB likes this post

    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:41 am

    GarryB wrote:Which has interesting implications for countries near Russian borders and coastal areas...

    For instance coastal batteries near St Petersberg or Kaliningrad need to appreciate that these mach 10 1,000km range plus missiles are fully multirole and can be used against ground as well as sea targets... that is going to shift the balance... wonder how many kms from Russian territory they will be basing those F-35s they all seem to want to get...

    Distance between Kaliningrad and Warsaw is 277 km
    Distance between Kaliningrad and Berlin is 527,32 km
    Distance between Kaliningrad and Stockholm is 535 km
    Distance between Kaliningrad and London is 1417,36 km. If the range of those missiles is up to 1500 km.
    Distance between Kaliningrad and Paris is 1403 kilometers.
    Distance between Kaliningrad and Vilnius is 306 km.

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2554
    Points : 2552
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  lancelot Mon Jan 10, 2022 11:43 am

    The INF Treaty only happened because at the time there was an European anti-nuclear political protest movement and the Soviets could put weapons in Cuba.
    With the mollified European population nowadays the protests are highly unlikely to happen in the first place and the US itself couldn't care less about how many  Europeans would die in such a conflict.

    The ones who would typically do such protests, like Germany's Green Party, seem to have switched to a position where military nuclear weapons are ok, but civilian nuclear power is not.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, LMFS, Broski and Krepost like this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik


    Posts : 1611
    Points : 1613
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  thegopnik Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:37 pm

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, LMFS, gc3762 and Broski like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11233
    Points : 11203
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Isos Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:47 pm

    **** that shit they have the Zirkon now.

    Just like they can't stop su-30 production for the much better su-35/57 they will risk keep buying a less powerful missile while they have the Zirkon to replace it. Reason : none.

    owais.usmani likes this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2626
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:02 pm

    lsos not every target requires circon or even onyx. Onyx is cheaper meant for easier purposes.

    Hole, owais.usmani and Broski like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11233
    Points : 11203
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Isos Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:05 pm

    What makes you think it's cheaper ?

    Zirkon is a scramjet, onyx a ramjet. They both have no moving parts in their engines. Size is similar and electronics also similar. Zirkon has better materials but that doesn't makes it way more expensive.

    Price is the same. Specially if we talk about an upgraded Onyx that uses every possible parts from Zirkon.

    We can easily conclude zirkon can totally replace Onyx.

    owais.usmani likes this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2626
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Arrow Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:17 pm

    I think that the materials for the Cirkon are much more expensive, resistant to very high temperatures, the scramjet itself is also a more advanced propulsion.  The need to properly maintain the combustion of the mixture in the supersonic chamber.  The drive itself is simple but only seemingly.  It took many years to master the scramjet drive.  There are also rumors that the Cirkon does not has a scramjet propulsion.  The Russians have not officially announced what propulsion in second stage in Cirkon.
    Electronics must also be adapted to larger overloads and temperatures.

    Big_Gazza and Broski like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2090
    Points : 2084
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  lyle6 Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:55 am

    Zircon was developed because the Russians thought they would be facing off against stealthy Aegis ships with air defenses that are as formidable as the S-400.

    They aren't. Frankly even the Onyx is overkill for the USN. Salvo sizes would have to be larger, but the results are the same. Complete total destruction of whatever poor fucker is on the other side.

    So I see no reason to complain if they want to continue using Onyx for the foreseeable future. Its not like the US is just going to spawn a brand spanking new fleet complete with ultra modern air defenses anytime soon.
    Rolling Eyes

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, zardof, LMFS, Hole, Broski and Belisarius like this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11233
    Points : 11203
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Isos Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:59 am

    Heat resistant material are long known and mastered. And they aren't that expensive.


    Last edited by Isos on Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6279
    Points : 6371
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:09 am

    Post lyle6 Today at 9:55 am

    Zircon was developed because the Russians thought they would be facing off against stealthy Aegis ships with air defenses that are as formidable as the S-400.
    They aren't. Frankly even the Onyx is overkill for the USN. Salvo sizes would have to be larger, but the results are the same. Complete total destruction of whatever poor fucker is on the other side.
    So I see no reason to complain if they want to continue using Onyx for the foreseeable future. Its not like the US is just going to spawn a brand spanking new fleet complete with ultra modern air defenses anytime soon.
    Rolling Eyes


    Don't kick the rotting body ...
    The mighty Muricans really discovered a swarm attack tactics.
    Only didn't manage to implement it yet.
    But beware, the happy seventies are coming to the US Navy step by step! They might be even as far as 1972 or something!

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, LMFS, Hole, Broski and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2634
    Points : 2626
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Arrow Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:32 pm

    Frankly even the Onyx is overkill for the USN. Salvo sizes would have to be larger, but the results are the same. Complete total destruction of whatever poor fucker is on the other side. So I see no reason to complain if they want to continue using Onyx for the foreseeable future. Its not like the US is just going to spawn a brand spanking new fleet complete with ultra modern air defenses anytime soon. Rolling Eyes wrote:

    In the case of Cirkon, you can use a much smaller swarm or even a single missile. In addition, a significant advantage in AShM increases the possibility and firepower of a smaller VMF, partially eliminating the significant advantage of the US Navy. Thanks to the Bastion systems armed with 3M22 missiles, the controlled area of seas and oceans will be significantly increased only with the use of land-based coastal defense systems. They will be able to cover part of the Arctic by placing Bastion sets on different islands, etc Smile The Arctic Ocean, thanks to new anti-ship weapons and the development of VMF, will be under the control of the Russian Navy in the future. This is an extremely important area. Northern sea route and a lot of resources.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza and Hole like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10343
    Points : 10323
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 47
    Location : Scholzistan

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Hole Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:25 pm

    Tsirkon is for AEGIS ships, after they´re sunk Onyx can cope with the carriers or amphibious ships.  Cool
    Also good enough for most land targets.  Wink

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6279
    Points : 6371
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  ALAMO Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:36 pm

    New post Hole Today at 4:25 pm
    Tsirkon is for AEGIS ships, after they´re sunk Onyx can cope with the carriers or amphibious ships. Cool
    Also good enough for most land targets. Wink


    Considering the fact, that AEGIS was not effective against the Ch-31 derivative drone target the Muricans purchased in mid-90s, I highly doubt if 3M80 or Ch-41 isn't still much overkill.
    That is a funny side of those Russkie bastards - they are getting ready for the threats they represent.
    And at the end of a day, it turns out that it is such an overkill, that 40 years later catching them is still an issue.

    GarryB and Big_Gazza like this post

    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:46 pm

    January 27, 08:45

    The developer of "Onyx" does not plan to increase the range of the rocket yet
    Alexander Leonov, General Designer of the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya, noted that the company is working on options for upgrading and improving performance

    REUTOV / Moscow region /, January 27. /TASS/. It is not planned to increase the flight range of the Onyx supersonic missile yet, Alexander Leonov, general director and general designer of the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya, told journalists on Friday.

    When asked by TASS whether the company is working to increase the range of the Onyx missile to 1,000 kilometers, he replied: "We are not working to increase the range [of Onyx] to 1,000 kilometers, I say right away."

    “Of course, we are working on options for upgrading and improving performance, including range, everything will depend on what requirements the customer will have,” he said.

    The Bastion coastal missile system with the Oniks supersonic missile developed and manufactured by the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya (part of KTRV and Soyuzmash) was originally conceived as an anti-ship missile. During the operation in Syria, it began to be used to destroy ground-based radio-contrast targets of militants, and later it was used during a special military operation in Ukraine. Onyx missiles are also in service with a number of ships and submarines of the Russian Navy.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/16899431

    GarryB, thegopnik and LMFS like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38473
    Points : 38973
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:47 am

    There are lots of aspects of a missiles performance other than range that are important, the fact that they continue to upgrade the missiles performance is the key component and operational experience in Syria and the Ukraine will allow them to improve the design and make it better.

    Their might even be changes they can make to make it cheaper and easier to mass produce, which might not impact performance but would make producing them in useful numbers much easier.

    People forget that it is not good enough to be a good system... having the best anti tank missile in the world is of little use if they are 10 million dollars a shot and you only buy 50 for your armed forces... and they end up using them against bunkers and enemy infantry positions.

    Having a weapon that is not as good but is less than $5K and you make thousands of them including specialised versions with HE Frag warheads for hitting point targets like unarmoured vehicles or sniper positions from 10km away is much much better even if it isn't fire and forget.

    I rather suspect the Russians wont want to go back to the INF treaty... the numbers listed above showing the distances to targets... once those Zircons have taken down major SAM sites they can start launching ground launched Kh-101s with 4,500km range to sneak into European countries and blow things up.

    They not only have to buy more tanks and artillery and ammo and MANPADS and ATGMs because of all they have donated to Kiev, but they are going to need to get an air defence system sorted out because their current air defence capability is pathetic.

    The 4,500km range of the Kh-101 will mostly come from the fact that they fly at medium altitude at a low throttle setting to conserve fuel till they get 1,000km from the target and then drop down and follow a sneaky indirect path to the target.

    Launched in Europe a low flight path would probably reduce its flight range to perhaps 2,500km which would be plenty to hit any target in Europe.

    Broski likes this post

    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 11233
    Points : 11203
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Isos Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:40 am

    They will quickly replace it with Zirkon. Why bither with that old missile when they have the beast Zirkon. Price tag shouldn't be that much different since both use engines with no moving parts.

    Its mach 2.5 speed at low altitude isn't a game changer. Aster, Stabdard, HQ missiles can all intercept it.

    Mach 10 Zirkon is waay better. Just go with it.

    The already produced Oniks can be used from ground launchers in ground attack mode for which it is still very good.
    Podlodka77
    Podlodka77


    Posts : 2589
    Points : 2591
    Join date : 2022-01-06
    Location : Z

    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jun 23, 2023 9:30 am

    June 23, 02:20
    Military operation in Ukraine
    The source spoke about the effectiveness of the DBK "Bastion" in the SMO against ground targets
    Initially, the coastal missile system was developed as an anti-ship

    KRONSTADT, June 23. /TASS/. The Bastion coastal missile system with the Oniks supersonic missile showed high efficiency in hitting ground targets during a special military operation in Ukraine. This was reported to TASS on the sidelines of the International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2023) by a source close to the military department.
    "At the initial stage of the special operation, several dozen Onyx missiles were used against enemy ground targets. They confirmed the high effectiveness of the complex," the source said, noting that the RF Ministry of Defense had repeatedly reported the facts of the combat use of the Bastion missile defense system.

    He recalled that for the first time "Bastion" developed by the Reutov NPO Mashinostroeniya (part of the Tactical Missiles Corporation) was used against ground targets of terrorists during the operation of Russian troops in Syria.

    DBK "Bastion" was originally conceived as an anti-ship. During the operation in Syria, it began to be used to destroy ground-based radio-contrast targets of militants.

    According to data from open sources, the range of destruction of the Bastion ballistic missile system is about 500 km, and work is also underway to increase the range of the missiles of the complex.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/18093953

    LMFS, Hole and Mir like this post


    Sponsored content


    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos - Page 9 Empty Re: P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:43 pm