P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

Isos wrote:Is there some news about Brahmos NG ? It's supposed to be 5m long and 50 cm diameter, can we expect an integration in the redut cells ?

Why the Redut Cells?

chicken wrote:

Isos wrote:Is there some news about Brahmos NG ? It's supposed to be 5m long and 50 cm diameter, can we expect an integration in the redut cells ?

Why the Redut Cells?

So you can free space in UKSK for cruise missiles and torpedo missiles or add more Brahmos for anti ship attacks. Now gorshkov can have 16 Anti ship missiles max and less if they put cruise missiles and torpedo missiles but it has 32 cells of Redut type. So you can put 4 more Brahmos Ng in redut and fit Cruise and torpedo missiles in UKSK.

@Garry you didn't read carrefully, I was not aking about UKSK but redut.

So you can free space in UKSK for cruise missiles and torpedo missiles or add more Brahmos for anti ship attacks. Now gorshkov can have 16 Anti ship missiles max and less if they put cruise missiles and torpedo missiles but it has 32 cells of Redut type. So you can put 4 more Brahmos Ng in redut and fit Cruise and torpedo missiles in UKSK.

@Garry you didn't read carrefully, I was not aking about UKSK but redut.

Redut is a SAM system and does not include cruise missiles.

The universal cruise missile carrier (UKSK) is designed to carry cruise missiles like land attack, anti ship, and anti sub missiles.

Correction... Gorshkov will be able to carry 16 of the most capable hypersonic anti ship missiles available anywhere in the world... why substitute a small light anti ship missile with less speed, and less range...

Onyx would outrange Brahmos by a significant margin... why carry a reduced weight brahmos?

Moskit engine is 3D-80 supersonic ramjet type with later variant ( 3D-81,82,82 ) upgrading on its capability introducing combustion stabilisation and dual position nozzle, it was developed by another design bureau in 70's i.e Zvezda Machine-Building Design Bureau

Brahmos/Onyx/Yakhont engine is 3D-55 developed by NPO Mashinostroyeniya , the key difference is t generational difference between the two engine , 3D-55 ramjet engine is fully-regulated movable nozzle duruing flight it can be throttled back to minimal thrust at optimum flight altitude then commanded to resume normal operation depending on the altitude its flying to conserve/optimise energy management.

I believe this wasn't posted in RDF yet but already discussed in Bharat forums. Nevertheless congratulations Austin and fellow Indian friends. I also read that they are preparing for 800 km ranged Brahmos, right?

One important bit however India is now party to MTCR so does that mean India can have better ranged Russian weapons if the Ru MoD allowed it?

No cap on range, supersonic cruise missile Brahmos hits 450 km target in test

By Hemant Kumar Rout  |  Express News Service  |   Published: 11th March 2017 01:29 PM  |  Last Updated: 12th March 2017 07:35 AM  |

BHUBANESWAR: India on Saturday successfully conducted maiden test of extended-range supersonic cruise missile BrahMos from a defence base off Odisha coast.

The technology upgrade comes after India’s full membership to the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) which removed caps on the strike range of BrahMos. The range has been now enhanced from 290 km to 450 km.

Defence sources said the missile was fired from a mobile autonomous launcher (MAL) deployed in full configuration at Chandipur-based launching complex-III of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at about 11.30 am.

The missile took off successfully and hit the designated target meeting all mission parameters. All telemetry and tracking stations including naval ships near terminal point have tracked the trajectory.  

Confirming that the mission was successful, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of Brahmos Aerospace Limited Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra, who witnessed the launch, described it as a ‘text book launch’ executed with high precision.

“In a historical first, the formidable missile system once again proved its mettle to precisely hit enemy targets at much higher range. The land-attack version of the supersonic cruise system met its mission parameters in a copybook manner,” he said.

The unique weapon system has empowered all three wings of the Indian armed forces with impeccable anti-ship and land attack capability.

“With the successful test firing, the armed forces will be empowered to knock down enemy targets far beyond 400 km. BrahMos has proved its prowess once again as the best supersonic cruise missile system in the world,” Dr Mishra claimed.

DRDO Chairman Dr S Christopher congratulated the BrahMos team, DRDO and scientists of Russia’s NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM) involved in the successful mission.

The nine-meter-long missile can travel at thrice the speed of sound and carry a conventional warhead weighing upto 300 kg.

The missile can be fired on three different targets or in a variety of other combinations near simultaneously. The land-based version is also equipped with inertial navigation system and global positioning system.

“The strike range was enhanced only with better internal systems including fuel management. There was no change in other dimensions,” informed an official associated with the project.

The missile, which derives its name from the Brahmaputra and Moskova rivers, was developed by an Indo-Russian joint venture after the two countries signed an agreement in February 1998.

The Indian army is the first army in the World to have a regiment of supersonic cruise missile with advanced capabilities.

LINK : http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/11/no-cap-on-range-supersonic-cruise-missile-brahmos-hits-450-km-target-in-test-1580308--2.html

"Onyx": 800 km - reality

The assumption that the launch range of the anti-ship cruise missile 3M55 of the Onyx complex could reach 800 km, expressed by the author of the blog about a year ago (ref. 1), was confirmed by our Indian colleagues and a source in the Russian space-rocket industry. Moreover, there is reason to believe that the range of "Onyx" has already reached or is close to 1000 km.


"Onyx" ("Yakhont")

On 20.01.2018, the Hindustan Times newspaper (New Delhi) published a report that by the end of the year India is going to test the Brahmos SCR with a range of more than 800 km (more than 800 km - reference 2), and a week later (26.01) the competent anonymous source of Interfax-AVN confirmed: "India's decision to increase the BraMos's flight range to 800 km is technically feasible" (ref. 3).

The progress of Indian rocketry after the country's accession to the Missile Technology Control Regime is impressive. Until June 27, 2016 (the date of joining the MTCR), the range of Brahmos did not exceed 300 km (290 km), on March 11, 2013, the launch was launched to a range of over 400 km, and at the end of 2018, an already impressive result was planned. At the same time, we should not forget that BrahMos Aerospace is a joint Russian-Indian company, of which the engineering industry is a participant, and the missile itself (analogous to 3M55) is nothing but a gift that fell to the heads of Indians in critical for the Russian OPK 1990's.

In military-technical cooperation, there is one unshakable rule: the TTX of weapons and military equipment supplied abroad must be known to be lower than the WME of its own armed forces. No matter how warm and friendly the relationship with the buyer country is at the time of the deal, there is no guarantee that sooner or later the weapons sold by us will not be turned against ourselves. As for the possibilities of science and industry of India (or the same China) to create new recipes for rocket fuel (factor No. 1 for increasing range), with all due respect to partners, we have to state our undisputed advantage (for years, if not for tens of years ), because neither the Hindus nor the Chinese participated in the arms race during the first cold war, which required extreme strain of forces and all intellectual resources.

Most likely, the 800-km range of the new version of "Brahmos" is another gift from Moscow, caused, on the one hand, by the persistence of the Indian negotiators, who sometimes make unrealistic requests (for example, about the leasing of "Ash") in order to get something more accessible, with another - the opportunity to make a generous gift without sacrificing the country's defense capability. In other words, if Russia provided India with a recipe for liquid and solid fuel, which allows Brahmos to fly 800 km, then we already have new, more energy-intensive recipes on which the Onyx flies, say, 1000 km.

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/183116.html

George1 wrote:"Onyx": 800 km - reality

 The assumption that the launch range of the anti-ship cruise missile 3M55 of the Onyx complex could reach 800 km, expressed by the author of the blog about a year ago (ref. 1), was confirmed by our Indian colleagues and a source in the Russian space-rocket industry. Moreover, there is reason to believe that the range of "Onyx" has already reached or is close to 1000 km.


"Onyx" ("Yakhont")

 On 20.01.2018, the Hindustan Times newspaper (New Delhi) published a report that by the end of the year India is going to test the Brahmos SCR with a range of more than 800 km (more than 800 km - reference 2), and a week later (26.01) the competent anonymous source of Interfax-AVN confirmed: "India's decision to increase the BraMos's flight range to 800 km is technically feasible" (ref. 3).

 The progress of Indian rocketry after the country's accession to the Missile Technology Control Regime is impressive. Until June 27, 2016 (the date of joining the MTCR), the range of Brahmos did not exceed 300 km (290 km), on March 11, 2013, the launch was launched to a range of over 400 km, and at the end of 2018, an already impressive result was planned. At the same time, we should not forget that BrahMos Aerospace is a joint Russian-Indian company, of which the engineering industry is a participant, and the missile itself (analogous to 3M55) is nothing but a gift that fell to the heads of Indians in critical for the Russian OPK 1990's.

 In military-technical cooperation, there is one unshakable rule: the TTX of weapons and military equipment supplied abroad must be known to be lower than the WME of its own armed forces. No matter how warm and friendly the relationship with the buyer country is at the time of the deal, there is no guarantee that sooner or later the weapons sold by us will not be turned against ourselves. As for the possibilities of science and industry of India (or the same China) to create new recipes for rocket fuel (factor No. 1 for increasing range), with all due respect to partners, we have to state our undisputed advantage (for years, if not for tens of years ), because neither the Hindus nor the Chinese participated in the arms race during the first cold war, which required extreme strain of forces and all intellectual resources.

 Most likely, the 800-km range of the new version of "Brahmos" is another gift from Moscow, caused, on the one hand, by the persistence of the Indian negotiators, who sometimes make unrealistic requests (for example, about the leasing of "Ash") in order to get something more accessible, with another - the opportunity to make a generous gift without sacrificing the country's defense capability. In other words, if Russia provided India with a recipe for liquid and solid fuel, which allows Brahmos to fly 800 km, then we already have new, more energy-intensive recipes on which the Onyx flies, say, 1000 km.

https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/183116.html

This is probably theorical max range for high altitude attack.

It would be more interesting to know what are the ranges for low altitude Attack and High-low attack for such a new missile ?

It's definitely saying 800km will require modifications to the standard config -> doesn't constitute a INF breach.

Then how long is the range of the p-800 ?

: )

1000-1200?

Just under 500km.

Edit: I should say that would be the max range for the land based version.

The maximum range of "Bastion" - up to 500 km. If the target is “light,” then a rocket can fly to it along a high-altitude trajectory. But if it is “heavy,” that is, protected by air defense, then a combined trajectory with a 40-kilometer stretch of flight is necessary. However, in this case, the range of the missile is reduced to 300 km.
https://armystandard.ru/news/t/20181081658-Sl4Fd.html

hoom wrote:It's definitely saying 800km will require modifications to the standard config -> doesn't constitute a INF breach.

Naval missiles are not part of INF treaty.

Onyx having been fired from land at land targets in Syria means its gotta be INF compliant -> sub 500km.

kumbor wrote:

hoom wrote:It's definitely saying 800km will require modifications to the standard config -> doesn't constitute a INF breach.

Naval missiles are not part of INF treaty.

But export missiles are limited to 300km.

No export missile. BrahMos is build in India. And India signed an international agreement against proliferaton so Russia can now deliver the know how for missiles with longer ranges.

I think they are talking of brahmos II. There is no upgrade just a new missile. Keeping the same name is probably confusing.

Yeah, think they are confusing the Brahmos II for an upgrade of the Brahmos.

Brahmos is an upgraded and modified Onyx... limited by export treaty to 300km range.

Brahmos II is export model of Zircon.

Improvement from 500km Onyx to 800km Onyx is likely due to improved fuel, but also likely improved ramjet motor.

Improvement from Onyx to Zircon will be improvement from ramjet to scramjet... being able to fly much faster and probably for longer will greatly improve range.

Only other Brahmos I have heard of is the smaller lighter Brahmos-M that is faster at mach 3 and is intended to be carried in greater numbers and also by smaller aircraft. MiG-29/35 can carry four of them and Flanker series aircraft like Su-30MKI and Su-35 can carry 5 of them.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:Yeah, think they are confusing the Brahmos II for an upgrade of the Brahmos.

Hypersonic is Brahmos II not Brahmos AFAIK

As a result of the modernization, the Russian-Indian cruise missile BrahMos will receive a maximum speed of five sound speeds and become hypersonic.
TASS was informed by the head of the joint venture BrahMos Aerospace from the Russian side - managing co-director of the company Alexander Maxichev at the LIMA 2019 exhibition in Malaysia
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6268823


best is to wait till LIMA 2019 report by Vitaly Kuzmin  

Andrei Martyanov suggests it's an upgrade of the existing BrahMos and not BrahMos II:

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2019/03/a-very-interesting-moment-with-brahmos.html

They're saying it's a 'modification', an upgrade, where as BrahMos II is brand new from scratch design.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Andrei Martyanov suggests it's an upgrade of the existing BrahMos and not BrahMos II:

http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2019/03/a-very-interesting-moment-with-brahmos.html

They're saying it's a 'modification', an upgrade, where as BrahMos II is brand new from scratch design.

co-director of Brahmos said the same. Such an upgrade would be the real ass-kick. Imagine now salvo of Kazan and on CSG  becomes a fraternal-bed-of-honor

Also further evidence that is in fact an 'upgrade' is that the max speed is locked out at Mach 5, which is the absolute limit of ramjets such as Onyx, otherwise if it was a wave-rider design it wouldn't necessarily max at the speed. So from the former reports the new high energy propellant upgrade pushes the max range to 800-1000km with a max speed of Mach 4.5-5.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:
Also further evidence that is in fact an 'upgrade' is that the max speed is locked out at Mach 5, which is the absolute limit of ramjets such as Onyx, otherwise if it was a wave-rider design it wouldn't necessarily max at the speed. So from the former reports the new high energy propellant upgrade pushes the max range to 800-1000km with a max speed of Mach 4.5-5.

perhaps your optimism with increased range might too  early.  Nonetheless   that upgrade of  existing missiles will have  great impact for ASh warfare.
Imagine in 2 years Iran can officially buy such Onyx he he CSG will keep 600kms form Iranian shores.

Check the top of the page. IMF+MTCR acted like a ball and chain on it's capability.