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    P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:08 pm

    Great news..

    But if the dimensions are the same how do they achieve the extended range?...new type of fuel?
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:56 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Great news..

    But if the dimensions are the same how do they achieve the extended range?...new type of fuel?

    This news came shortly after inf treaty end.
    Or oniks already had 800km range( and they only improved the navigation system), or a better fuel, I doubt they developed a new engine.
    I think they will "just" test the same oniks with software improvements. Which it's great.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:03 pm

    Expert: onyx-M missile tests with a range of 800 km have already been carried out

    According to the chief editor of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine Viktor Murakhovsky, the range has been increased due to the new fuel composition, as well as a lighter and more compact onboard radio electronics

    The Onyx-M sea-based cruise missile with an increased range of up to 800 km has passed throw tests, before taking into service it is necessary to conduct flight tests at the declared range. About this TASS told a military expert, chief editor of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky.

    "As far as I know, the throw tests have already passed, a series of real launches is needed to confirm the characteristics, and after that a decision will be made on putting into service," Murakhovsky said, answering the question about the timing of the appearance of a new missile in the fleet.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6925991
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    Post  Arrow on Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:26 pm

    Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 25, 2019 5:03 pm

    dino00 wrote:Expert: onyx-M missile tests with a range of 800 km have already been carried out

    According to the chief editor of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine Viktor Murakhovsky, the range has been increased due to the new fuel composition, as well as a lighter and more compact onboard radio electronics

    The Onyx-M sea-based cruise missile with an increased range of up to 800 km has passed throw tests, before taking into service it is necessary to conduct flight tests at the declared range. About this TASS told a military expert, chief editor of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky.

    "As far as I know, the throw tests have already passed, a series of real launches is needed to confirm the characteristics, and after that a decision will be made on putting into service," Murakhovsky said, answering the question about the timing of the appearance of a new missile in the fleet.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6925991

    also modernized version has the same dimension meaning modernization can be applied to existing Onix models which was the idea of the modernization.

    https://vpk-news.ru/news/52655
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:36 pm

    Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

    Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
    But you knew all this, you're just trolling.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:48 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

    Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
    But you knew all this, you're just trolling.

    They still need to answer officially to the ability of UKSK to use Zirkon. It may end up that only UKSK-M can use it and all the ship being constructed won't use zirkon.

    Oniks is the best antiship missiles today. Mach 2.8 and interacting btw them. It was designed to destroy new ships being designed in the 90s (so most of the nato ships in service right now). It also has a land attack version which no nato air defence can really intercept. System may intercept it but the AIDS most have can't deal with such low observable and very fast missile.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:40 am

    Isos wrote:
    dino00 wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

    Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
    But you knew all this, you're just trolling.

    They still need to answer officially to the ability of UKSK to use Zirkon. It may end up that only UKSK-M can use it and all the ship being constructed won't use zirkon.

    Oniks is the best antiship missiles today. Mach 2.8 and interacting btw them. It was designed to destroy new ships being designed in the 90s (so most of the nato ships in service right now). It also has a land attack version which no nato air defence can really intercept. System may intercept it but the AIDS most have can't deal with such low observable and very fast missile.
    They already stated that the smaller modified Zircon will go to standard UKSK. The smaller modification could even be quadpacked (although probably not) in the UKSK-M cell, and it also explains why the original range specifications for Zircon were significantly smaller...MOD wanted more range so they made a larger cell, which allows Kalibr to be modified to a version with 4,500km range.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:41 am

    Sooo..

    How's about that Onyx with Mach 4.5 speeds?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:54 am

    I suspect they also realised that having 200 UKSK launch tubes on big ships sounds fantastic but would actually be rather expensive to fill.

    Having a bigger launch tube means bigger missiles can be developed and used... the INF treaty did not apply to ship launched missiles... the American Navy insisted on that, and the US Air Force also insisted that air launched missiles are not included either.


    Having a bigger tube could mean the UKSK-M could use S-500 long range SAMs/ABM missiles, but would also mean that if they want to fit SAMs in it then it needs to be able to stack, and of course a larger tube is always better for stacking than a smaller tube.

    Onyx is in production and use today, so any upgrades can immediately improve performance across the fleet... interesting that they probably limited its speed because their is a land based shore battery version of the Onyx... the downgraded Yakhont is for export and has a range of about 300km, but the Russian Onyx probably can reach further... perhaps 400-450km while complying with the INF treaty.

    Whether ship or land launched range performance will be similar so an 800km range shore launched anti ship missile... with lighter electronics, probably lighter stronger materials in its design, improved fuel, and likely improved motor design, though probably still a ramjet rather than a scramjet, should significantly improve performance.

    How's about that Onyx with Mach 4.5 speeds?

    The increased power fuel should increase thrust so while the new Onyx might only have its engine running half as long, the extra thrust might give it a higher speed and therefore longer range.

    Say for instance it weighs 3 tons at launch, with 750kgs being payload and electronics and surface controls etc, and perhaps 750kgs of solid rocket fuel to lift the missile into the air and get it accelerating and climbing, that would be 1.5 tons left for fuel, so moving at mach 2.5 for say 350km, that is an 800m/s moving object flying 350km which should take 437 seconds, or about 7.2 minutes... the solid rocket motor would burn out very rapidly and speed should increase as it travels because it will be getting lighter as it flys.

    A new fuel, with perhaps both more energy and more volume might take up 1.8 tons of the weight of the original missile, but at mach 4.5, which means it is moving at about 1,440m/s, so 800km would take 555 seconds with 9.2 minutes of burn time with higher thrust.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:34 pm

    Defense Ministry concludes contract for purchasing cruise missiles Onix at Army-2020 forum

    https://tass.com/defense/1193591
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Sep 09, 2020 8:37 am

    Does know if the Oniks is sea skimming or if it just flies at normal altitude?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:07 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Does know if the Oniks is sea skimming or if it just flies  at normal altitude?

    It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

    Generally very low altitude is for the last 15-20km. Before that all the missiles travel at higher altitudes (tebs of meter for subsonic ones or very high 15km for Oniks) and they go straight, evasive manoeuvres happen also in the last 20km.

    That's why it is good to have a AD with ~50km range so that you can destroy them when they are cruising straight and at altitudes where radar won't have issues tracking them.

    Longer range air defences (>50Km) are useless against them as they stay bellow radar horizon and are ttinny targets hard to spot at long distances unless you have an awacs and data link to guide the missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:55 pm


    It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

    You might be confusing Sunburn (Moskit 3M80)... SS-N-22. It was a 120km range low all the way missile which in later models had 250km range with a climb to altitude and diving attack on the target.

    The Yakhont/Brahmos has a range of 290km... with a low altitude flight profile... the Russian Onyx probably reaches 400km at low altitude and perhaps 600km with a mixed flight profile...

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    Post  Arrow on Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:57 pm

    Any information about new hypersonic Onyx with new fuel ?
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

    You might be confusing Sunburn (Moskit 3M80)... SS-N-22. It was a 120km range low all the way missile which in later models had 250km range with a climb to altitude and diving attack on the target.

    The Yakhont/Brahmos has a range of 290km... with a low altitude flight profile... the Russian Onyx probably reaches 400km at low altitude and perhaps 600km with a mixed flight profile...


    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/yakhont/

    The 120km range is for export Yakhont in a low-low profile. High-low trajectory is 300km. Terminal attack at ~10m.


    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/moskit-mve/

    New export Moskit 140km in low-low trajectory and 240km in high-low trajectory.


    Russian versions are secret but the figure given is 660km for the oniks for a high-low trajectory (low-low shoukd be around 300km). I wouldn't be surprised if it is more because it's the missile that comes after the p-500/700 which had 550/600km ranges so the follow on has better range.
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:58 pm

    Nice video of the launch and terminal approach of the Oniks/ Bastion coastal defence system:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQl-fftC28Q

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    Post  hoom on Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:56 am

    Apparently India is working on an extended range version of Brahmos.

    ...modified for Air-to-Air  affraid  presumably as AWACS killer.
    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2020/09/wtf-wtf.html

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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:34 pm

    You are quite late Hoom lol1 .
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:45 am

    Actually thanks for posting Hoom... did you guys read it?

    In the first part is says this:

    Recently, India tested Brahmos to 800-kilometer range and that may give us some clue on what is going on here. 400 kilometer range air-to-air missiles are nothing new such as Russian KS-172 which is in serial production and is called anti-AWACS missile for a reason.

    Who else knew the KS-172 was in serial production?

    Look forward to the next American AWACS replacement and inflight refuelling aircraft costing quite a lot more with their new stealth designs...
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:40 am

    That's a pro indian blog... no need to read it.

    The objectivity and reliability of that article is 0.
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    Post  hoom on Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:41 am

    You are quite late Hoom.
    Feel free to point me to the previous discussion of an Air-to-Air variant Suspect
    I did check the last 3 pages which takes us back to Feb 2018 so...

    That's a pro indian blog... no need to read it.
    He's pro Russian.
    He's only pro indian to the extent they buy Russian military tech.
    He's also pro chinese to the extent they buy Russian military tech.

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