P-800 Oniks and BrahMos

A source or citation on Russians using jamming on anti ship missile exercises would be appreciated. I've never read about them use jamming equipment for anti ship trainings.

There isn't but during their ground exercices they always use jammers that affect even neighbour countries.

It's just that both missiles seem to miss the target which would be weired for such important missile that was in service since long time ago and tested many time. It shouldn't have problem hiting such target that is not even stealthy.

The way they miss makes me believe that jammers were used because they clearly have issues of distance measurment to the target. The second one doing better than the first one but still seems to miss and explode before touching it.

They don't launch real missiles that often so when they decide to test them they make many scenarios IMO. Trying to shot a target in a jamming environment must be one of them. The first video as you say is a vulkan and a moskit so they test a salvo attack composed of two differznt missiles to see how that would work and you can see the missiles are very well coordinated.

But no I have no proof about that just my opinion.

Firebird wrote: I can't really believe that India is enjoying tech sharing with Russia on this.
Ofcourse Modi and co might want to convey that to their own population to justify the expense.
But frankly I don't believe Russia will hand over anything of note.
There's even a suggestion India might turn to the US in coming years eg over 15/20 years.

I think a Ru-India alliance can be terrific. But ultimately Russia is about military (and other) tech. India is about economic growth in a highly populous emerging market.

India will likely surpass USA by size of economy in next 20years. It has already roughly half size of it.  Tech sharing in multinational cooperation is always limited as to mutually acceptable size and benefits.  So nobody is loosing, neither Russia nor India.

This improvement of Onix is made by Russian company which designed Zircon how much of it is from mutual cooperation in Brahmos nobody can be be sure but why not?.

Austin wrote:It has been known for some time , Existing Ramjet is being improved and with a modified fuel will give it a speed of Mach 4.5 plus

This is different from Scramjet BRahmos which is Zircon variant

what is good because upgrading plain Onix/Brahmos gives ultimately hypersonic or close to hypersonic missile with long range. It is likely cheaper then building Zircon/Brahmos missiles. Ok they are faster 8-9Ma but so far US AAD had problems with 2,5 Ma not 4,5-5Ma.

Vulkan misses

First is a miss 2nd is a hit and very dead tug even though its hit/exploded short.
Whole heap of debris is passing clean through front to back and with enough momentum transfer that the tug is pushed a boatlength to side and rear.

No major ship target will have only one missile fired at it anyway... a carrier will be attacked by quite a few missiles at once...

In Russia, developed a new KR "Onyx-M" with an increased firing range

Onyx sea-based cruise missile received a new version. The Onyx-M cruise missile with an increased firing range was developed by NPO Mashinostroeniya. This was reported by TASS with reference to two sources in the Russian defense industry.




According to the agency, the NPO Mashinostroeniya based on the Kyrgyz Onyx, which is in service, has developed a new sea-based cruise missile Onyx-M with a maximum firing range of 800 km and increased accuracy of destruction. The missile is equipped with an advanced control system that allows you to hit targets with great accuracy, and it also has increased protection against electronic warfare. Tests of the new CD will begin soon.

Based on the Onyx cruise missile in service, a new version was developed - Onyx-M, which received a maximum range of 800 km

- the agency cites the words of one of the sources.

According to available information, the tests of the new rocket were supposed to begin in the first ten days of September at one of the ranges of the Northern Fleet, however, they were postponed due to the need for additional verification of prototype rockets. According to the interlocutor of the agency, flight tests will begin within one to two months.

It is specified that the mass and overall characteristics of the Onyx-M cruise missile remained the same as that of the Onyx, which is in service, it can also carry both a conventional and a nuclear warhead.

It was previously reported that the maximum firing range of the Onyx (Yakhont) is 300 km. The maximum speed of the rocket is 2.5 speeds of sound at high altitude, the mass of a conventional warhead is 250 kg.



https://topwar.ru/162850-v-rossii-razrabotali-novuju-kr-oniks-m-s-uvelichennoj-dalnostju-strelby.html

Great news..

But if the dimensions are the same how do they achieve the extended range?...new type of fuel?

Cyberspec wrote:Great news..

But if the dimensions are the same how do they achieve the extended range?...new type of fuel?

This news came shortly after inf treaty end.
Or oniks already had 800km range( and they only improved the navigation system), or a better fuel, I doubt they developed a new engine.
I think they will "just" test the same oniks with software improvements. Which it's great.

Expert: onyx-M missile tests with a range of 800 km have already been carried out

According to the chief editor of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine Viktor Murakhovsky, the range has been increased due to the new fuel composition, as well as a lighter and more compact onboard radio electronics

The Onyx-M sea-based cruise missile with an increased range of up to 800 km has passed throw tests, before taking into service it is necessary to conduct flight tests at the declared range. About this TASS told a military expert, chief editor of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky.

"As far as I know, the throw tests have already passed, a series of real launches is needed to confirm the characteristics, and after that a decision will be made on putting into service," Murakhovsky said, answering the question about the timing of the appearance of a new missile in the fleet.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6925991

dino00 wrote:Expert: onyx-M missile tests with a range of 800 km have already been carried out

According to the chief editor of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine Viktor Murakhovsky, the range has been increased due to the new fuel composition, as well as a lighter and more compact onboard radio electronics

The Onyx-M sea-based cruise missile with an increased range of up to 800 km has passed throw tests, before taking into service it is necessary to conduct flight tests at the declared range. About this TASS told a military expert, chief editor of the magazine "Arsenal of the Fatherland" Viktor Murakhovsky.

"As far as I know, the throw tests have already passed, a series of real launches is needed to confirm the characteristics, and after that a decision will be made on putting into service," Murakhovsky said, answering the question about the timing of the appearance of a new missile in the fleet.

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6925991

also modernized version has the same dimension meaning modernization can be applied to existing Onix models which was the idea of the modernization.

https://vpk-news.ru/news/52655

Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
But you knew all this, you're just trolling.

dino00 wrote:

Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
But you knew all this, you're just trolling.

They still need to answer officially to the ability of UKSK to use Zirkon. It may end up that only UKSK-M can use it and all the ship being constructed won't use zirkon.

Oniks is the best antiship missiles today. Mach 2.8 and interacting btw them. It was designed to destroy new ships being designed in the 90s (so most of the nato ships in service right now). It also has a land attack version which no nato air defence can really intercept. System may intercept it but the AIDS most have can't deal with such low observable and very fast missile.

Isos wrote:

dino00 wrote:

Arrow wrote:Why develop old Oniks, apparently they have Cirkon with a range of over 1000km and a speed of 9M. Or Cirkon is in trouble. Onyks flight only 2.8M

Because they have hundreds or thousands of them...Zirkon is fine don't worry, not in production so low numbers,.
But you knew all this, you're just trolling.

They still need to answer officially to the ability of UKSK to use Zirkon. It may end up that only UKSK-M can use it and all the ship being constructed won't use zirkon.

Oniks is the best antiship missiles today. Mach 2.8 and interacting btw them. It was designed to destroy new ships being designed in the 90s (so most of the nato ships in service right now). It also has a land attack version which no nato air defence can really intercept. System may intercept it but the AIDS most have can't deal with such low observable and very fast missile.

They already stated that the smaller modified Zircon will go to standard UKSK. The smaller modification could even be quadpacked (although probably not) in the UKSK-M cell, and it also explains why the original range specifications for Zircon were significantly smaller...MOD wanted more range so they made a larger cell, which allows Kalibr to be modified to a version with 4,500km range.

Sooo..

How's about that Onyx with Mach 4.5 speeds?

I suspect they also realised that having 200 UKSK launch tubes on big ships sounds fantastic but would actually be rather expensive to fill.

Having a bigger launch tube means bigger missiles can be developed and used... the INF treaty did not apply to ship launched missiles... the American Navy insisted on that, and the US Air Force also insisted that air launched missiles are not included either.


Having a bigger tube could mean the UKSK-M could use S-500 long range SAMs/ABM missiles, but would also mean that if they want to fit SAMs in it then it needs to be able to stack, and of course a larger tube is always better for stacking than a smaller tube.

Onyx is in production and use today, so any upgrades can immediately improve performance across the fleet... interesting that they probably limited its speed because their is a land based shore battery version of the Onyx... the downgraded Yakhont is for export and has a range of about 300km, but the Russian Onyx probably can reach further... perhaps 400-450km while complying with the INF treaty.

Whether ship or land launched range performance will be similar so an 800km range shore launched anti ship missile... with lighter electronics, probably lighter stronger materials in its design, improved fuel, and likely improved motor design, though probably still a ramjet rather than a scramjet, should significantly improve performance.

How's about that Onyx with Mach 4.5 speeds?

The increased power fuel should increase thrust so while the new Onyx might only have its engine running half as long, the extra thrust might give it a higher speed and therefore longer range.

Say for instance it weighs 3 tons at launch, with 750kgs being payload and electronics and surface controls etc, and perhaps 750kgs of solid rocket fuel to lift the missile into the air and get it accelerating and climbing, that would be 1.5 tons left for fuel, so moving at mach 2.5 for say 350km, that is an 800m/s moving object flying 350km which should take 437 seconds, or about 7.2 minutes... the solid rocket motor would burn out very rapidly and speed should increase as it travels because it will be getting lighter as it flys.

A new fuel, with perhaps both more energy and more volume might take up 1.8 tons of the weight of the original missile, but at mach 4.5, which means it is moving at about 1,440m/s, so 800km would take 555 seconds with 9.2 minutes of burn time with higher thrust.

Defense Ministry concludes contract for purchasing cruise missiles Onix at Army-2020 forum

https://tass.com/defense/1193591

Does know if the Oniks is sea skimming or if it just flies at normal altitude?

The-thing-next-door wrote:Does know if the Oniks is sea skimming or if it just flies  at normal altitude?

It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

Generally very low altitude is for the last 15-20km. Before that all the missiles travel at higher altitudes (tebs of meter for subsonic ones or very high 15km for Oniks) and they go straight, evasive manoeuvres happen also in the last 20km.

That's why it is good to have a AD with ~50km range so that you can destroy them when they are cruising straight and at altitudes where radar won't have issues tracking them.

Longer range air defences (>50Km) are useless against them as they stay bellow radar horizon and are ttinny targets hard to spot at long distances unless you have an awacs and data link to guide the missiles.

It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

You might be confusing Sunburn (Moskit 3M80)... SS-N-22. It was a 120km range low all the way missile which in later models had 250km range with a climb to altitude and diving attack on the target.

The Yakhont/Brahmos has a range of 290km... with a low altitude flight profile... the Russian Onyx probably reaches 400km at low altitude and perhaps 600km with a mixed flight profile...

GarryB wrote:

It needs to be programmed before launch. You can choose a combination of altitudes and can go sea skimming all the way but it reduces its range to 120km.

You might be confusing Sunburn (Moskit 3M80)... SS-N-22. It was a 120km range low all the way missile which in later models had 250km range with a climb to altitude and diving attack on the target.

The Yakhont/Brahmos has a range of 290km... with a low altitude flight profile... the Russian Onyx probably reaches 400km at low altitude and perhaps 600km with a mixed flight profile...

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/yakhont/

The 120km range is for export Yakhont in a low-low profile. High-low trajectory is 300km. Terminal attack at ~10m.


http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/moskit-mve/

New export Moskit 140km in low-low trajectory and 240km in high-low trajectory.


Russian versions are secret but the figure given is 660km for the oniks for a high-low trajectory (low-low shoukd be around 300km). I wouldn't be surprised if it is more because it's the missile that comes after the p-500/700 which had 550/600km ranges so the follow on has better range.

Nice video of the launch and terminal approach of the Oniks/ Bastion coastal defence system:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQl-fftC28Q

Apparently India is working on an extended range version of Brahmos.

...modified for Air-to-Air    presumably as AWACS killer.
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2020/09/wtf-wtf.html

You are quite late Hoom .

Actually thanks for posting Hoom... did you guys read it?

In the first part is says this:

Recently, India tested Brahmos to 800-kilometer range and that may give us some clue on what is going on here. 400 kilometer range air-to-air missiles are nothing new such as Russian KS-172 which is in serial production and is called anti-AWACS missile for a reason.

Who else knew the KS-172 was in serial production?

Look forward to the next American AWACS replacement and inflight refuelling aircraft costing quite a lot more with their new stealth designs...