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69 posters

    Project 971: Akula class

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:10 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Nerpa was sent back early this is probably the reason behind 6 years upgrade period for next one
    Akula SSN taken on lease are sent to Russia for MRO on a regular basis. The very basic maintenance is done in India.

    Six years for upgrade may therefore mean that currently Russia is not in a position to lease an Akula SSN. And the one that can be spared is probably not sea worthy right now and will take at least 6 years to upgrade.

    Most likely its a case of the available boathouses being fully engaged with new builds and upgrades/repairs.  The existing workload takes priority, and it may take 2-3 years for a slot to become available.

    The identity of the 971 slated as the future "Chakra 3" changes frequently, and currently it seems to be K-391 Bratsk, but given that they are talking about 6 years and a couple of billion USD, perhaps they have decided to complete the Iribis, currently preserved at the Amur yard (unlikely, not sure if Amur retains nuke boat capabilities after all this time)? It seems strange that if her completion isn't feasible, why has it not been broken up?  Completing Iribis would net the Indians a brand new boat, and a good number of technological upgrades one might expect (as they would finish her with modern systems, electronics and weapons rather than the originally intended 1980s vintage outfitting).

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    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:35 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Most likely its a case of the available boathouses being fully engaged with new builds and upgrades/repairs.  The existing workload takes priority, and it may take 2-3 years for a slot to become available.
    However, at least 5 Akulas are available. Not sure why one of these Akulas can’t be leased to India say within a year’s time. Even as I speak around 6 Akulas are already undergoing modernization in Russia.

    Big_Gazza wrote:The identity of the 971 slated as the future "Chakra 3" changes frequently, and currently it seems to be K-391 Bratsk, but given that they are talking about 6 years and a couple of billion USD, perhaps they have decided to complete the Iribis, currently preserved at the Amur yard (unlikely, not sure if Amur retains nuke boat capabilities after all this time)? It seems strange that if her completion isn't feasible, why has it not been broken up?  
    The deal for K-391 Bratsk or perhaps K-295 Samara has already been cleared and it will arrive here in India around 2025.
    I was referring to recent reports about another Akula SSN that India wants to lease apart from the K-391 Bratsk. This is a NEW deal.
    Big_Gazza wrote:Completing Iribis would net the Indians a brand new boat, and a good number of technological upgrades one might expect (as they would finish her with modern systems, electronics and weapons rather than the originally intended 1980s vintage outfitting).
    Torpedoes will probably remain the same, but launch tubes meant for firing Kalibr might not be able to fire BRAHMOS.
    I am not sure what are the upgrades being carried out by the Russian Navy on the Akula’s EW & decoy systems, sensors or weapons. Not much open source information is available, just some generic description about the upgrades, for example “new sensors”, “new cruise missiles” etc.
    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:14 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Nerpa was sent back early this is probably the reason behind 6 years upgrade period for next one
    Akula SSN taken on lease are sent to Russia for MRO on a regular basis. The very basic maintenance is done in India.

    Six years for upgrade may therefore mean that currently Russia is not in a position to lease an Akula SSN. And the one that can be spared is probably not sea worthy right now and will take at least 6 years to upgrade.

    Most likely its a case of the available boathouses being fully engaged with new builds and upgrades/repairs.  The existing workload takes priority, and it may take 2-3 years for a slot to become available.

    The identity of the 971 slated as the future "Chakra 3" changes frequently, and currently it seems to be K-391 Bratsk, but given that they are talking about 6 years and a couple of billion USD, perhaps they have decided to complete the Iribis, currently preserved at the Amur yard (unlikely, not sure if Amur retains nuke boat capabilities after all this time)? It seems strange that if her completion isn't feasible, why has it not been broken up?  Completing Iribis would net the Indians a brand new boat, and a good number of technological upgrades one might expect (as they would finish her with modern systems, electronics and weapons rather than the originally intended 1980s vintage outfitting).

    This is correct, the shipyards are overloaded with work, and new submarines have preference for the Russian Fleet.
    In addition, the Pacific shipyards are no longer capable of building nuclear submarines, only repairs / modernizations.

    I am not sure what happened with Irbis, India ruled out finishing it, opting for.... Bratsk?
    It is possible that the Irbis was scrapped along with the Kashalot, since she was only at 44% or slightly more,

    Now in Bolshoy Kamen the 949AM Irkutsk is modernized and after that, the Cheliabinsk also will be modernized
    Also the ex-Magadan is being repaired. This submarine could later be modernized to 971I, since it is already theoretically out of the fleet.

    Sujoy wrote:
    However, at least 5 Akulas are available. Not sure why one of these Akulas can’t be leased to India say within a year’s time. Even as I speak around 6 Akulas are already undergoing modernization in Russia.

    In no way, the Akulas of the Northern Fleet are not available for the send to India, they will return to service at the same time that the Victor III and Sierra II finish their period of work.
    The available submarines are the Samara or Bratsk (one of them), the ex-Magadan and the Nerpa
    The Pacific Fleet must retain at least three Akulas in addition to two 949AM

    There are not 6 Akuals in modernization, at the moment there is the Leopard and maybe the Samara started recently
    Bratsk and Volk await their turn after them. The shipyards are very busy building new ships and submarines
    The Tigr (at SRZ Nerpa) and the ex-Magadan (in Zvezfa) are only getting a "MLU" repair

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:02 pm

    According to the wiki page of the Akula, there were 5 uncompleted hulls in their shipyards.

    Two were used for borei submarine construction, they were the Kuguar and the Rys.

    Two other have no name and the last is called Iribis and is completed to 42% and it is written it could be finished for leasing to India.

    Are there any info about those 3 ? Could they be finished to another standard and put into service ?
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:24 am

    Isos wrote:According to the wiki page of the Akula, there were 5 uncompleted hulls in their shipyards.

    Two were used for borei submarine construction, they were the Kuguar and the Rys.

    Two other have no name and the last is called Iribis and is completed to 42% and it is written it could be finished for leasing to India.

    Are there any info about those 3 ? Could they be finished to another standard and put into service ?

    Those entries listed in wiki as K-xxx appear to be new edits, I'm certain they were not there previously. I don't believe they are real, but if they were, they were probably used for hull segments in the first 3 Borei subs?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:47 am

    Those who were used for borei contruction appears in the list. 2 were unfinished hulls and the third was a sub being scraped from which they take its hull.

    Then their are 3 other unfinished and unused hulls.

    Now that it isn't the 00s anymore, theyvmay have money to restart their construction to a yasen level standard.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:00 pm

    This are not completed hulls but segments.
    Project 971: Akula class - Page 15 Cb2ck10

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:23 pm

    Still worth finishing them Very Happy .

    India may also be interested by 3 new Akula to be build for its navy.
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    Post  RTN Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:55 pm

    Isos wrote:Still worth finishing them Very Happy .

    India may also be interested by 3 new Akula to be build for its navy.
    Will take at least 5-6 years minimum to finish them. India might buy/lease a Barracuda nuke submarine from France by then.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:37 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Isos wrote:Still worth finishing them Very Happy .

    India may also be interested by 3 new Akula to be build for its navy.
    Will take at least 5-6 years minimum to finish them. India might buy/lease a Barracuda nuke submarine from France by then.

    France lack enough sub for itself. They will nevee lease one.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:12 pm

    You can buy one for 3 billion. Very Happy
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 15, 2021 2:37 pm

    Hole wrote:You can buy one for 3 billion. Very Happy

    Yeah more like 4-5 with "ToT" that is never transferted like for the rafale.

    And french subs need 8 years to be build whike being twice smaller than russian subs.
    franco
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    Post  franco Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:28 pm

    Isos wrote:Still worth finishing them Very Happy .

    India may also be interested by 3 new Akula to be build for its navy.

    Waste of money, skilled labour and shipbuilding space.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:34 pm

    franco wrote:
    Isos wrote:Still worth finishing them Very Happy .

    India may also be interested by 3 new Akula to be build for its navy.

    Waste of money, skilled labour and shipbuilding space.

    They need more SSN so it's not a waste of anything.
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:06 pm

    Isos wrote:...They need more SSN so it's not a waste of anything.

    Keep building Yasens, problem solved

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:...They need more SSN so it's not a waste of anything.

    Keep building Yasens, problem solved

    It's a SSGN.

    Akula are smaller and more manoeuvrable when it comes to fighting enemy submarines. They are real attack SSN.

    They need those 3 subs.and would be on par with Yasen in terms of stealth.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 15, 2021 10:16 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:...They need more SSN so it's not a waste of anything.

    Keep building Yasens, problem solved

    Are you still advising the French? Laughing
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:13 am

    Isos wrote:They need those 3 subs.and would be on par with Yasen in terms of stealth.

    971s are on par with Yasens in terms of stealth? Suspect

    You seriously think that Russian sub technology hasn't made fundamental advances in the last 30-something years? 855Ms are an order of magnitude quieter than 971s. They are as quiet as Seawolf or Virginias...
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Oct 16, 2021 9:26 am

    As quiet as ...
    What kind of benchmark is that?
    Seawolf is a 40 y/o sub project.
    Virginia is a follow-on of 688, which was supposed to be a cheap, massively produced sub to answer the overwhelming numbers of the Soviet Navy.
    You are talking about a fleet created by a nation owning the world's fastest, deepest diving, biggest, and most deadly subs, constructed without a pause for 150 years.
    Russian Imperial Navy was operating serially build submarines since the 1880s. Stefan Drzewiecki, a brilliant Pole, was the father of imperial submarine fleet.
    It is simply unbelievable how much the propaganda shit loads into people's heads ... Rolling Eyes
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:26 pm

    They will have all the necessary information in front of them... I am confident they know more details than we could possibly be aware of and are making the best decisions they can... without being able to see the future, they can make educated guesses...
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    Post  Isos Sat Oct 16, 2021 1:17 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They need those 3 subs.and would be on par with Yasen in terms of stealth.

    971s are on par with Yasens in terms of stealth?  Suspect

    You seriously think that Russian sub technology hasn't made fundamental advances in the last 30-something years?  855Ms are an order of magnitude quieter than 971s. They are as quiet as Seawolf or Virginias...

    I said build them to a new standard Akula 3 with better stealth and why not a 8-cell VLS.

    Of course they will use the technologies developed for Yasen or even the ones developed for their next generation SSN making it even quiter than Yasen-M.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:51 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:They need those 3 subs.and would be on par with Yasen in terms of stealth.

    971s are on par with Yasens in terms of stealth?  Suspect

    You seriously think that Russian sub technology hasn't made fundamental advances in the last 30-something years?  855Ms are an order of magnitude quieter than 971s. They are as quiet as Seawolf or Virginias...

    I said build them to a new standard Akula 3 with better stealth and why not a 8-cell VLS.

    Of course they will use the technologies developed for Yasen or even the ones developed for their next generation SSN making it even quiter than Yasen-M.

    I hear you, but AFAIK the only incomplete hull available is Irbis. Any other hulls would have been repurposed for the initial 3x Borei builds. Resources to finish Irbis would be better spent on an extra 855M.

    Not sure about the current state of Irbis, but I expect she is still intact. She was photographed back in 2015 during some official visit by either Navy brass or some government knob, and Big Bad Vlad saw her back in 2009 before that.

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 15 Irbis_11

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 15 Irbis_10

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    RTN
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    Post  RTN Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:10 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote: 855Ms are an order of magnitude quieter than 971s.
    But 855Ms are using the same OK 650 reactors. So some reduction in noise but not much.

    Isos wrote:And french subs need 8 years to be build whike being twice smaller than russian subs.
    French SSKs like Scorpene class are roughly the size of Kilos. But french nuke boats are much smaller than Russian analogues. Not sure why the French builds such small nuke boats.

    Isos wrote:I said build them to a new standard Akula 3 with better stealth and why not a 8-cell VLS.
    Better stealth can probably be achieved by designing a reactor more advanced than Ok-650 family of reactors. Design will remain the same.

    Why not a 8-cell VLS? Probably lack of real estate.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:54 pm


    Reactors don't generate noise, pumps do

    Those have long been replaced (probably more than once)

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    Post  RTN Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:09 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Reactors don't generate noise, pumps do

    Those have long been replaced (probably more than once)
    What I meant was the reactor's system coolant pump that are an integral part of the reactor. Reduction gears, screw, propulsion turbines, generators and electrical loads are a bigger source of noise.

    Be that as it may, OK-650 family of reactors need to be replaced with more state of the art reactors. They have had a long run and probably served their purpose but new inventions should follow.

    Take SSKs for instance, just when AIPs were being touted as the holy grail of underwater warfare the Japs came up with lithium ion batteries for their SSKs.

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