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    Project 971: Akula class

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri May 31, 2019 12:14 pm

    Is it really a fact that a 636 has been given the name Madagan? We won't know until its actually laid down. In the meantime they are clearly doing something with K-331, whatever they are currently calling it.

    I wouldn't be surprised if this name business is just some good-old-fashioned maskirovka just to stir up the seppos.  Laughing


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Fri May 31, 2019 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 31, 2019 12:20 pm

    Maybe they will lease it to India ?
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri May 31, 2019 12:25 pm

    Isos wrote:Maybe they will lease it to India ?

    Maybe. She looks in better condition that Bratsk or Samara, and no-one has seen Kashalot since she vanished back into Amur yard.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 am

    Granat not Granit.

    My point stands... land attack and anti ship missile carrying subs are SSGNs as neither are ballistic nor are they considered strategic missile.

    Granat was the basis for kalibr family. It was not accurate enough for high precision strikes so it was mostly nuclear armed.

    GLONASS didn't exist when it was operational so its 250-300m CEP accuracy without terminal guidance made it a nuclear only weapon and mainly for trashing cities, which is pretty much all they wanted it for. (they didn't want a first strike potential so hitting silos is pointless because they will be empty by the time any cruise missile reaches them...)

    All Granats had nuke warheads and were therefore of very limited use.

    It is nowhere near Kalibr in terms of capabilities.

    Kalibrs accuracy means it can use conventional warheads which makes it usable.

    Its the same size and overall config of the INF-compliant 9M728 yet Murican lying shitbags insist it has 6x the range.... stupid is as stupid does...

    Claim the other guy broke the agreement so you can break it too... oldie but still works... obviously...

    and no-one has seen Kashalot since she vanished back into Amur yard.

    Name like that maybe a Saudi hit squad murdered and dismembered it by accident or for practise?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:42 pm

    GLONASS didn't exist when it was operational so its 250-300m CEP accuracy without terminal guidance made it a nuclear only weapon and mainly for trashing cities, which is pretty much all they wanted it for. (they didn't want a first strike potential so hitting silos is pointless because they will be empty by the time any cruise missile reaches them...)

    All Granats had nuke warheads and were therefore of very limited use.

    So it's kinda a strategic weapon. It's low flying caracteristics and nuclear warehead make it a nice carrier killer (at least for the carriers at port).
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:58 am

    You could describe them that way, but even with 4,500km range upgraded models they have never been counted in START or SALT agreements... only ICBMs, SLBMs and air launched cruise missiles. IRBMs and land based cruise missiles and ship based cruise missiles were not limited until the INF treaty which limited land based ballistic and cruise missiles.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:20 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Isos wrote:Maybe they will lease it to India ?

    Maybe. She looks in better condition that Bratsk or Samara, and no-one has seen Kashalot since she vanished back into Amur yard.  

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 9 79191_original

    Samara is going to be leased to India
    Kashalot seems has been removed from service
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:55 pm


    Nuclear submarine Tiger to be put back into operation by 2024

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%9D%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%B01/

    By the end of 2023, the Tiger multipurpose nuclear submarine of Project 971 (code "Shchuka-B"), which is now at the Nerpa plant, will return to combat duty. This was announced on Monday, February 3, Izvestia, citing sources in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

    After the repair and modernization are completed, the submarine will seriously increase its strike power, having received the Caliber cruise missiles. At the same time, the Tiger will maintain its main quality - noiselessness, the source said........
    ............
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:49 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Nuclear submarine Tiger to be put back into operation by 2024


    I was questioning the point of this, as the sub is now 27 years old, but since it was tied up since 2010 it may have a great deal of life left in it. I still question if such an old boat makes much sense in terms of quiet running etc. Perhaps it just needs new fuel and some sensors and it it can become a 12K ton caliber spitting machine!!!
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:54 pm

    Modernised Akulas with Kalibres/Oniks/Zircon and modern electronics & sensors will be solid boats. The 971s are superior to the Improved Los Angeles class and while noisier than modern USN Seawolf or Virginia they are still very capable.

    With the Arctic shaping up to be a key resource area and shipping route Russia needs all of its capable SSNs to ensure it can adequately guard its interests in its near abroad.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:58 pm

    Seems like they are picking up the pace on Akula recommissioning:

    https://112.international/russia/first-modernized-akula-attack-submarine-returns-to-northern-fleet-49824.html

    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:57 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Modernised Akulas with Kalibres/Oniks/Zircon and modern electronics & sensors will be solid boats.  The 971s are superior to the Improved Los Angeles class and while noisier than modern USN Seawolf or Virginia they are still very capable.  

    With the Arctic shaping up to be a key resource area and shipping route Russia needs all of its capable SSNs to ensure it can adequately guard its interests in its near abroad.

    With modern computer power it is possible to design noise cancelling hardware for the hulls of such submarines.    A large part of the noise is the moving parts including
    everything related to propulsion.   They can replace the propeller, the shaft and the turbines to reduce the noise.    So the noise "issue" is not likely to be there after
    some rational effort.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:58 am

    mnztr wrote:Seems like they are picking up the pace on Akula recommissioning:

    https://112.international/russia/first-modernized-akula-attack-submarine-returns-to-northern-fleet-49824.html

    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.

    Good to see these boats back in action. Scumbag Gorbie had a lot of them and similar scrapped as he served his NATzO masters.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:25 am

    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.

    I like the name shark too, but the problem is that the Project 971 is actually called Pike... it is the west that calls it Akula... the sub the west calls Typhoon is the sub the Soviets and Russians call Akula.... project 941...
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    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:24 pm

    mnztr wrote:Seems like they are picking up the pace on Akula recommissioning:

    https://112.international/russia/first-modernized-akula-attack-submarine-returns-to-northern-fleet-49824.html

    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.

    So it will carry Kalibr missiles? russia
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:11 pm

    George1 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Seems like they are picking up the pace on Akula recommissioning:

    https://112.international/russia/first-modernized-akula-attack-submarine-returns-to-northern-fleet-49824.html

    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.

    So it will carry Kalibr missiles? russia


    Onyx would make more sense for Akulas

    Ground targets are not exactly on their kill list

    Kalibrs are more suited for diesel electric subs, low priority targets (compared to enemy vessels) in closer proximity to Russia

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    Post  mnztr on Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:


    Onyx would make more sense for Akulas

    Ground targets are not exactly on their kill list

    Kalibrs are more suited for diesel electric subs, low priority targets (compared to enemy vessels) in closer proximity to Russia


    Kaliber also has an anti-ship missile with a very long range and supersonic terminal stage. It can also go out the torpedo tubes which is nice.
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    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:24 pm

    Kalibr with supersonic terminal phase is in some way better than oniks. It can cruise at very low altitude all the way while oniks will fly high a big part of the way and could be detected by long range L band radars or awacs.

    Moreover the acceleration would happen in the supersonic engagement zone making it a much harder target than if it has a constant speed.

    But if it can fire oniks it should be able to fire kalibr. Since they planned to use both of them from UKSK they should have unified their control computers and launch softwares. It's not very hard to do IMO.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Always thought Akula was one of the coolest names for a submarine class.

    I like the name shark too, but the problem is that the Project 971 is actually called Pike... it is the west that calls it Akula... the sub the west calls Typhoon is the sub the Soviets and Russians call Akula.... project 941...

    The pike is a pretty ferocious fresh water fish, a very real and efficient killer. Difficult to eat as well without lots of flushing with water. The Russians chose the name well, pity about NATO but then they probably really worried about it.
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    Post  x_54_u43 on Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:26 pm

    There is now way a 971 can fire Onyx barring some kind of magic. But Kalibr could probably be fired even from unupgraded 971s, all you really need is a laptop to plug in coordinates into the missile before you stick it into the tube and launch it, obviously this is a very subpar setup compared to actually having the proper control software in the new multifunction terminals Vepr is probably getting.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:57 pm

    x_54_u43 wrote:There is now way a 971 can fire Onyx barring some kind of magic. But Kalibr could probably be fired even from unupgraded 971s, all you really need is a laptop to plug in coordinates into the missile before you stick it into the tube and launch it, obviously this is a very subpar setup compared to actually having the proper control software in the new multifunction terminals Vepr is probably getting.

    So Onyx is not capable of being tube fired and requires VLS

    Thanks for​ clarification, been wondering about that

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 26, 2020 10:43 am

    So it will carry Kalibr missiles?

    The current Kalibr family (export name Club for the types available for export) are 533mm calibre and are designed to be launched from torpedo tube and from UKSK launchers.

    Newer longer ranged missiles of larger calibre are being developed to better fill out the UKSK tubes which will become standard on new and upgraded ships and subs...

    Onyx would make more sense for Akulas

    It would but too big for torpedo tubes...

    Ground targets are not exactly on their kill list

    In their original role that is true, but reintroduced they might use them for other tasks as they are no longer state of the art to face Virginias and Seawolfs.

    Kalibrs are more suited for diesel electric subs, low priority targets (compared to enemy vessels) in closer proximity to Russia

    Not really... and certainly the new Kalibrs with 5,000km flight ranges they are actually strategic missiles with a nuke warhead...

    Kaliber also has an anti-ship missile with a very long range and supersonic terminal stage. It can also go out the torpedo tubes which is nice.

    Indeed... it is in fact ironic that the export models of Club mean the subsonic/supersonic club is limited in flight range to 300km, which really does not take advantage of the range boost the subsonic turbojet powered section could give to the supersonic portion... have heard comments regarding the domestic version suggesting the subsonic portion can fly 1,500km... with the rocket portion then delivering the payload 50km to the target at very low altitude...

    Kalibr with supersonic terminal phase is in some way better than oniks. It can cruise at very low altitude all the way while oniks will fly high a big part of the way and could be detected by long range L band radars or awacs.

    To maximise flight range most subsonic missiles will fly at medium altitude at a relatively low throttle setting to maximise range and only drop low perhaps 400-500km from the target area... it would increase flight range and keep detection potential minimised. Most of their missiles will have sensors to detect enemy radar emissions so any radar scanning for them would be detected and likely cause them to dive down to near sea level...

    So Onyx is not capable of being tube fired and requires VLS

    The 0.7m calibre Onyx wont fit in a 533mm nor a 650mm torpedo tube so it would need to be operating with a Corvette or other sub equipped to launch Onyx.



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    Post  mnztr on Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:You could describe them that way, but even with 4,500km range upgraded models they have never been counted in START or SALT agreements... only ICBMs, SLBMs and air launched cruise missiles. IRBMs and land based cruise missiles and ship based cruise missiles were not limited until the INF treaty which limited land based ballistic and cruise missiles.

    The INF treaty is a great loss, people don't understand (neither does trump) why its loss makes things do dangerous. An IRBM or Hypersonic missile can hit a target in a very short time. For example #1 target for Russian forces is all the ABM sites so in times of high tension, they would nuke those to safegurad their ICBMs, its possible they can take them out with non-nuke Iksanders if they are willing to minimise tension, but if they think a first strike is being attemped by "you know who" they would nuke Poland and Romanian ABM sites. The missile flight time is so short there is no recall or chance to second guess. If you get a Russian leader that is less steely eyed then Putin ..it could be EXTEREMLY dangerous. Also command and control becomes a nightmare and accidental or renagade weapons launch becomes a huge risk. These are extremely dangerous times.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Mar 28, 2020 3:43 pm

    The ABM sites in eastern europe are easy targets. They could be taken out even by MRLS if they have enough range. Nukes are useless for that.

    Those are building size radars and the west has nothing to protect them against supersonic missiles/rockets.

    Anyone has a map with their sites ?
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:11 pm

    Isos wrote:The ABM sites in eastern europe are easy targets. They could be taken out even by MRLS if they have enough range. Nukes are useless for that.

    Those are building size radars and the west has nothing to protect them against supersonic missiles/rockets.

    Anyone has a map with their sites ?

    The will be defended by anti-missile missles, and you need a heavy missile as they are in silos

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