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62 posters

    Project 971: Akula class

    Sujoy
    Sujoy

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    Post  Sujoy Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:18 pm

    Isos wrote:Just sell them and buy more Yasen.
    Without Akula class SSNs Russian Navy won't be able to maintain numbers. So they can't sell immediately.

    Moreover, they still need 6 years to refurbish a single Akula SSN, meaning they are currently not in a good shape.
    Isos
    Isos

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    Post  Isos Sun Sep 05, 2021 3:33 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Isos wrote:Just sell them and buy more Yasen.
    Without Akula class SSNs Russian Navy won't be able to maintain numbers. So they can't sell immediately.

    Moreover, they still need 6 years to refurbish a single Akula SSN, meaning they are currently not in a good shape.

    The subs will be indians 10 years if they lease them too so that doesn't change the situation.

    Sell and use the money for a new yasen. And indians will pay for the maintenance and the destruction of the ships at the end.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:00 pm

    Isos wrote:The subs will be indians 10 years if they lease them too so that doesn't change the situation.

    Sell and use the money for a new yasen. And indians will pay for the maintenance and the destruction of the ships at the end.
    India will have to return the SSn at the end of the lease period.

    That aside, why does it take so long (5-6 years) to refurbish an SSN?
    Isos
    Isos

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    Post  Isos Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:09 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Isos wrote:The subs will be indians 10 years if they lease them too so that doesn't change the situation.

    Sell and use the money for a new yasen. And indians will pay for the maintenance and the destruction of the ships at the end.
    India will have to return the SSn at the end of the lease period.

    That aside, why does it take so long (5-6 years) to refurbish an SSN?

    In 10 years Akula will be outdated and being replaced. If it is still good indians will take it again because they need such subs.

    There is no need to keep it. Building a yasen should take 3 or 4 years now.

    Just sell it and buy a new sub.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 06, 2021 5:46 am

    A ten year lease is good money... the last one was about 3 billion dollars wasn't it?

    That is more than India paid for the conversion of the Gorshov into a flat deck carrier and a full air wing.

    Don't get me wrong... both were well worth the money, but ten years is nothing for an SSN... the Akulas are very good subs and with upgrades can be useful for quite a long period in the future too.

    AFAIK they are laying down new subs, both conventional and nuclear so they are slowly expanding their fleet quite nicely... the money they get for a 10 year lease on one sub to India will pay for probably six new conventional subs or three new SSNs so why not?

    I doubt that India would pay much more for a purchase and of course the obvious problem is that when Russia sells something it becomes the customers property... with a lease and Russia thinks they are letting too many americans on board the sub they can cancel the lease and refund the Indians for the remaining lease time.

    Not that I think India are that stupid of course.
    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:19 am

    Isos wrote:
    Sujoy wrote:
    Isos wrote:The subs will be indians 10 years if they lease them too so that doesn't change the situation.

    Sell and use the money for a new yasen. And indians will pay for the maintenance and the destruction of the ships at the end.
    India will have to return the SSn at the end of the lease period.

    That aside, why does it take so long (5-6 years) to refurbish an SSN?

    In 10 years Akula will be outdated and being replaced. If it is still good indians will take it again because they need such subs.

    There is no need to keep it. Building a yasen should take 3 or 4 years now.

    Just sell it and buy a new sub.

    Running a sub cost two magnitude less than build it.

    They needs to be used until they can't be refurbished.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:40 am

    India will lease them as much as they so probably untill the end. So Russia will never operate it again.

    That's why they should sell it and get more contracts about maintenance and disposal of the sub at the end.

    And with the money buy a sub they will operte.

    Leasing is good but at the end they will pay a lot to destroy the ship and refurbish it. Just sell it to indians for the same money as for leasing and let them pay for any extra work. And the sub won't last for more than 15 years anyway. They are like 3 generation behind since there is Yasen, yasen M and now Husky coming.
    RTN
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    Post  RTN Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:.. the Akulas are very good subs and with upgrades can be useful for quite a long period in the future too.
    Bend it like Beckham, fudge it like GarryB.

    Akulas are an obsolete class of SSNs. And that it will take 5-6 years and US$ 3 billion to refurbish before it can be leased to India clearly proves that it is in such a run down state that it will take tons of money and a huge amount of time to get it up and running (if at all).
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:57 pm

    Jesus holy fuckin' Christ, where do you all Murican dumbasses came from?!? scratch
    971 is much better than half of your rusting, single-hull pieces of crap you drive with your non-comprende crews.
    It sails faster and deeper than any of your subs, not only the first half I have mentioned.
    Uses a weapon you still can't even dream off, and that would kill you without notice other than "good by my Mexican fatherland, hasta la vista".
    How you are going to impress them? Laughing
    With your 50 y/o Tomahawks, that any Russian jamming station brigs aground in whole salvos? Laughing
    With your ancient, 50 y/o Harpoons? Laughing Laughing Laughing
    Really?
    Get sober, for instance Laughing Laughing Laughing
    For a 3bln$ they can build a 2-3 885Ms.
    Yo are fucked so hard straight up in your arse, that applying the same rapist logic to all the others.
    This is unbelievable, how dumb you can become if treated with the proper medicine.

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    Mir
    Mir

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    Post  Mir Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:03 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Akulas are an obsolete class of SSNs. And that it will take 5-6 years and US$ 3 billion to refurbish before it can be leased to India clearly proves that it is in such a run down state that it will take tons of money and a huge amount of time to get it up and running (if at all).

    Like the earlier Nerpa this Akula will have to be refurbished to operate with Indian hardware/software. They also remove a lot of sensitive systems from the refurbished Akula. It all takes a bit of time to accomplish. Most importantly it will finance a couple more Yasen subs for the Russian Navy. You should be worried.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:51 am

    Leasing is good but at the end they will pay a lot to destroy the ship and refurbish it. Just sell it to indians for the same money as for leasing and let them pay for any extra work. And the sub won't last for more than 15 years anyway. They are like 3 generation behind since there is Yasen, yasen M and now Husky coming.

    Genius.... and in ten years time when it comes time to scrap it the lowest bidder will be an American company that is offering to pay them 500 million to do the job... brilliant...


    In terms of design and performance they are better than LA class US subs, so they are comparable to Sea Wolf and that newer one... what is it called again?

    Akulas are an obsolete class of SSNs.

    Obsolete where?

    With a decent upgrade with all new sonar and electronics it could easily be better than any current western SSN and it is certainly faster and deeper diving than any western SSN already.

    If they put Zircons in it and had it sitting off the Cuban coast it would be an excellent distraction from what other newer subs were doing around the place.

    They could sail it around the UK and tie up the entire Royal Navy... how can that be obsolete?

    And that it will take 5-6 years and US$ 3 billion to refurbish before it can be leased to India clearly proves that it is in such a run down state that it will take tons of money and a huge amount of time to get it up and running (if at all).

    The 3 billion is the lease... the refurbish will be removing anything they don't want India to see or use or anyone operating with India might see, but will be a tiny fraction of the lease price otherwise they will be leasing it for free.

    This will be good income for Russian subcontractors and I suspect the 5-6 years is a chance to see how close India will get to the US in order to damage China.

    Jesus holy fuckin' Christ,

    Calm down mate, the US media has been working on these guys since birth... the fact that he comes here to find alternative voices makes him one of the smart ones...

    Being wrong does not indicate intelligence levels in any direction.

    Of course being proven wrong and doubling down on those same beliefs anyway does indicate a lack of grey matter.

    ....Mir living up to his name... Very Happy

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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:54 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Calm down mate, the US media has been working on these guys since birth... the fact that he comes here to find alternative voices makes him one of the smart ones...

    Being wrong does not indicate intelligence levels in any direction.

    Of course being proven wrong and doubling down on those same beliefs anyway does indicate a lack of grey matter.

    ....Mir living up to his name...  Very Happy

    Naaah, sure that does not apply to all Americans.
    I know how they are fed with bullshit since day 1.
    It is not their fault, but an exceptionalists ideology that spoils their country and society.
    I have tons of customers in the US, and in general, those are very honest and decent people.
    Like any others, let's say.
    Unfortunately, we have a massive overrepresentation of Muricans here. Supa dupa ones. Laughing
    How you can consider seriously a guy, who copies&pasts whole parts of another articles as own words? clown lol!
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:29 am

    GarryB wrote:With a decent upgrade with all new sonar and electronics it could easily be better than any current western SSN and it is certainly faster and deeper diving  than any western SSN already.
    Not much is known about the upgrade package offered to India. I wonder what it would be because it will take 6 years for the upgrade.

    Maybe some technologies developed for the Yasen will find its way into the Akula that will be leased to India.

    Nonetheless, it will be interesting to learn more about the upgrade package.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:08 am

    To be serious, I hardly believe an option for 6 years modernization plan.
    Why do you even bother to have a nuclear attack submarine?
    Well, for training purposes, obviously.
    To get your own tactics, operational plans etc.
    So what you really need, is some kind of consistency.
    You need a tool to train a crews for your being born boomers, right?
    The second should be ready this year I guess?
    I am already surprised that there is a huge gap existing already, as you lack any successor for the returned Nerpa.
    By the way, is there any program for attack sub you run now? Other than Arihant ?
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:50 am

    ALAMO wrote:To be serious, I hardly believe an option for 6 years modernization plan.
    Means what? You are saying it won't take 6 years to modernize a Akula class SSN?

    ALAMO wrote:Why do you even bother to have a nuclear attack submarine?
    Well, for training purposes, obviously.
    To get your own tactics, operational plans etc.
    So what you really need, is some kind of consistency.
    You need a tool to train a crews for your being born boomers, right?
    Wrong. Training, tactics etc were already fine tuned 20 years ago on the INS Chakra.

    ALAMO wrote:By the way, is there any program for attack sub you run now? Other than Arihant ?
    Arihant is not a SSN, it is a SSBN. The plan is to procure 6 SSNs.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:31 pm

    I am saying that if this modernization would take 6 years, the boat is useless for you.
    There would be a point to replace Nerpa with some other piece, while still having the trained crew on hands.
    In a 6 years time, they will be gone already, and all the training experience lost.
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:23 pm

    Isos wrote:And the sub won't last for more than 15 years anyway. They are like 3 generation behind since there is Yasen, yasen M and now Husky coming.
    Yasen and Husky are SSGNs. Akula is a SSN.

    Therefore, Yasen and Husky are probably not replacement for Akula.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:35 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Yasen and Husky are SSGNs. Akula is a SSN.

    Therefore, Yasen and Husky are probably not replacement for Akula.

    From what I can gather the Husky will be a modular design with the initial version orientated towards ASW - similar to Akula and therefor a direct replacement for the Akula. The Husky will also be developed to perform other roles like SSGN's and even SSBN's. But it is still very early times for anything concrete.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:44 pm

    Sujoy wrote:
    Yasen and Husky are SSGNs. Akula is a SSN.

    Therefore, Yasen and Husky are probably not replacement for Akula.

    Of course they are, just have a different layout due to technological progress.
    For 80s generation of Soviet subs, installing a potent anti-ship battery required a big hulk 949 style.
    Now you can handle that load in a smaller sub.
    I hardly believe that Russkies will ever build a pure "ssn" boat as you see it.
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    wilhelm

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    Post  wilhelm Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:56 pm

    RTN wrote:
    Bend it like Beckham, fudge it like GarryB.

    Akulas are an obsolete class of SSNs.

    The US Navy still operates 28 of the Los Angeles class SSN, a design dating back to the early 1970's, and 10 years older than the Akula design.

    9 Los Angeles hulls still in service are older than the Bratsk.

    Almost 50% of the Royal Navy's SSN fleet is either the same age or older than Bratsk. The Trafalgar class is another design stemming from the early 1970's, and is a refinement of the 1960's designed Swift sure class.
    50% of French SSN's are also older than Bratsk.

    But yeah....

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:43 am

    6 years sounds like a long upgrade, are they anticipating having to negotiate the finer details yet to come?

    India might have asked for technology to be included like test AIP stuff that will take a while to get right and installed.

    India is a good customer so if it is some of their better tech they want then they are more likely to get it than other customers.

    Perhaps India has some tech and equipment they want installed for testing for future application in their own SSNs of the future.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:10 am

    GarryB wrote:In the Soviet Navy there were only Submarines and four Kirov class cruisers that were nuclear powered...

    There was 1 more: Large nuclear-powered intelligence ship

    The Akulas will be upgraded, rearmed & sailor on for many more years to make up for other subs & ships that r in repair/upgrade or take long time to build. The lost Kursk SSGN was worth 2-3 SSNs in anti-ship/land attack role.

    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:50 am

    GarryB wrote:6 years sounds like a long upgrade, are they anticipating having to negotiate the finer details yet to come?

    India might have asked for technology to be included like test AIP stuff that will take a while to get right and installed.

    India is a good customer so if it is some of their better tech they want then they are more likely to get it than other customers.

    Perhaps India has some tech and equipment they want installed for testing for future application in their own SSNs of the future.

    Price has been factored in already. Upgrade package is something that Russia offers. I do not have much knowledge about the kind of upgrade that Akula class SSNs go through.

    At best India might want the option of firing BRAHMOS or any other long range cruise missile.

    I understand India is willing to accept right now any of the Akula SSN that are in service. So this 6 years modernization timeline set for the Akula to me is befuddling.

    Maybe some technologies that have matured on the Yasen or Husky is finding its way into the Akula.

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:33 pm


    Nerpa was sent back early this is probably the reason behind 6 years upgrade period for next one
    Sujoy
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    Post  Sujoy Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:17 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Nerpa was sent back early this is probably the reason behind 6 years upgrade period for next one
    Akula SSN taken on lease are sent to Russia for MRO on a regular basis. The very basic maintenance is done in India.

    Six years for upgrade may therefore mean that currently Russia is not in a position to lease a Akula SSN. And the one that can be spared is probably not sea worthy right now and will take at least 6 years to upgrade.

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