Home
Latest images
Register
Log in
lyle6And China actually needs these ships, badly. They are one of the if not the most dependent on ocean going trade but are without a globe spanning network of bases and fleets. Judging by current trends, while the navy they are building in conjunction with land-based IADS and IRBMs might be enough to protect their coasts, they don't have nearly enough ships to build a fleet that can contest the USN and her allies if they decide to blockade the Chinese. They are growing fast sure, but that's a disadvantage in of itself - it takes years to create competent crews, and decades to create capable institutions even if you don't dilute the cadre to accommodate inexperienced recruits or mass promote officers to jobs they are unripe for. Contrast this to the USN and her allies, who have a deep enough talent pool to absorb their more modest personnel growth without compromising capability as much.GarryB wrote:And honestly, the more ships this size China has the better in my opinion... they are a country of 1.5 billion people... they should have more say in international affairs.
+26
AlfaT8
Bob Bollusc
Mir
ALAMO
lancelot
magnumcromagnon
bren_tann
yommiesan
LMFS
Tai Hai Chen
lyle6
The-thing-next-door
ultimatewarrior
flamming_python
Isos
PapaDragon
GarryB
Arrow
Rodion_Romanovic
ATLASCUB
Hole
walle83
Hannibal Barca
miketheterrible
KiloGolf
George1
30 posters
Type-055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread
lyle6- Posts : 2296
Points : 2290
Join date : 2020-09-14
Location : Philippines
GarryB- Posts : 39672
Points : 40168
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Russia and China can not rely on the west to protect free trade and the sea lines of communication... they have to sort out their own means of doing so anywhere in the world.
That does not mean they have to build 10 carrier groups and invade countries... it means they need to be able to exert force anywhere on the planet without resorting to nukes.
China and Russia have a lot to learn about naval operations far away from their own shores, but there is no rush, they are both making progress... sometimes too much progress hides other problems... it is not just about building ships, it is about support ships and even just manning the vessels you have an having berth place to keep all these vessels...
Expanding international relations and port visits are important too, and increased trade comes with that as well.
That does not mean they have to build 10 carrier groups and invade countries... it means they need to be able to exert force anywhere on the planet without resorting to nukes.
China and Russia have a lot to learn about naval operations far away from their own shores, but there is no rush, they are both making progress... sometimes too much progress hides other problems... it is not just about building ships, it is about support ships and even just manning the vessels you have an having berth place to keep all these vessels...
Expanding international relations and port visits are important too, and increased trade comes with that as well.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
The-thing-next-door wrote:How viable would it be for Russia to order five or so Type 055s with Russian missiles and radars?
I would imagine it would be quite convenient to have about five "medium" destroyers that could be assigned to fleets that operate Atlant class vessels in order to secure Russian territorial waters.
Obviously such ships would be quite inferior to the nuclear destroyers that will make up the Russian navy's ocean going battelgroups, but as interim vessels to be used with the Atlants they could be rather useful.
Russia doesn't have money to order anything bigger than Admiral Gorshkov class frigates in terms of surface combatants.
lyle6- Posts : 2296
Points : 2290
Join date : 2020-09-14
Location : Philippines
Tai Hai Chen wrote:
Russia doesn't have money to order anything bigger than Admiral Gorshkov class frigates in terms of surface combatants.
Hole- Posts : 10982
Points : 10962
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 48
Location : Scholzistan
When the chinese credit bubble bursts Russia can buy the chinese rust buckets for change.
miketheterrible likes this post
Isos- Posts : 11379
Points : 11347
Join date : 2015-11-06
They ordered 2 helicopter carriers and Gorshkov M 
.
.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
Russia used to have a large massive ship fleet
Issue is, it's pointless. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. While yes, the bigger ships can pack more heat, they are still a huge easy target for something like a Khinzal.
The days of Yamamoto style ships are long over. It's better to have a rather decently strong sized fleet that carries heavy hand, and gorshkov is an example of that. Neither expensive nor lacking in firepower or defense. An all round good vessel.
Should just build more of them tbh.
Frigates make sense. Cruisers do not.
And while China makes decent sized vessels, they are questionable in terms of firepower or quality.
And yes, China is very reliant on foreign entities to buy their junk, and with a growing bubble thanks to the construction industry, China shouldn't act too cocky.
Issue is, it's pointless. The bigger the target, the easier it is to hit. While yes, the bigger ships can pack more heat, they are still a huge easy target for something like a Khinzal.
The days of Yamamoto style ships are long over. It's better to have a rather decently strong sized fleet that carries heavy hand, and gorshkov is an example of that. Neither expensive nor lacking in firepower or defense. An all round good vessel.
Should just build more of them tbh.
Frigates make sense. Cruisers do not.
And while China makes decent sized vessels, they are questionable in terms of firepower or quality.
And yes, China is very reliant on foreign entities to buy their junk, and with a growing bubble thanks to the construction industry, China shouldn't act too cocky.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
Isos wrote:They ordered 2 helicopter carriers and Gorshkov M
There is no Gorshkov M. The 2 helicopter carriers are only possible because regaining the Kerch shipyard which can build larger ships. As I stated, Gorshkov class frigates about the size of Type 054A is the largest surface combatant Russian navy can afford. Russia is no China which has far more funding and resource.
LMFS- Posts : 5111
Points : 5107
Join date : 2018-03-03
Tai Hai Chen wrote:There is no Gorshkov M. The 2 helicopter carriers are only possible because regaining the Kerch shipyard which can build larger ships. As I stated, Gorshkov class frigates about the size of Type 054A is the largest surface combatant Russian navy can afford. Russia is no China which has far more funding and resource.
You have convinced me, just show us the VMF budget allocations where you saw that please...
miketheterrible likes this post
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
After the first batch of 8 Type 055, the next batch called Type 055L will be larger, about 15,000 tons.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
Yes, a big piece of metal shit with crappy missiles and old air defense.
Congrats.
I rather be on a Grigorovich as it has better weapons.
PS
I think this is Arrows second account. The style of writing and claim is exactly the same.
Congrats.
I rather be on a Grigorovich as it has better weapons.
PS
I think this is Arrows second account. The style of writing and claim is exactly the same.
GarryB- Posts : 39672
Points : 40168
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Frigates make sense. Cruisers do not.
Frigates have not persistance or range and are essentially capable of defending themselves and not anything else.
To survive they would need to operate within range of land based air power.
Two or three dozen make sense to have half a dozen in each of the fleets except probably the Caspian Sea Fleet which could have one or two perhaps plus Corvettes.
The Russian Navy will also need Destroyers and Cruisers to attend to business elsewhere around the world.
Aircraft carriers will make them a more effective force, and will actually make them safer away from ground based air support.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
What?
Frigates job is the same as Cruisers. A cruiser is just a bigger frigate with the frigate not supposed to have the number of missiles. That is also slowly changing too.
A frigate will strike then what? It's like how US launched all those tomahawks at Syria and even with a cruiser or two launches, it didn't do squat. At that point if a ship wanted to strike it, it would have little to nothing to defend itself.
Frigates job is the same as Cruisers. A cruiser is just a bigger frigate with the frigate not supposed to have the number of missiles. That is also slowly changing too.
A frigate will strike then what? It's like how US launched all those tomahawks at Syria and even with a cruiser or two launches, it didn't do squat. At that point if a ship wanted to strike it, it would have little to nothing to defend itself.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
GarryB wrote:Frigates make sense. Cruisers do not.
Frigates have not persistance or range and are essentially capable of defending themselves and not anything else.
To survive they would need to operate within range of land based air power.
Two or three dozen make sense to have half a dozen in each of the fleets except probably the Caspian Sea Fleet which could have one or two perhaps plus Corvettes.
The Russian Navy will also need Destroyers and Cruisers to attend to business elsewhere around the world.
Aircraft carriers will make them a more effective force, and will actually make them safer away from ground based air support.
If you are gonna have carriers, you are gonna need destroyers to escort them. China actually built up its destroyers and frigates before building up carriers. Right now China is sitting on 30 Type 054A frigates. That's significantly more than 5 Admiral Gorshkov and Admiral Grigorivich frigates. You need at least 6 frigates to escort a single carrier. On top of that, China built up 26 modern destroyers consisting of Type 052D and Type 055. You need at least 6 destroyers to escort a single carrier. This is mainly the reason Russia is retiring Admiral Kuznetsov and not building any large carrier, mainly due to lack of modern destroyers and frigates to escort large carriers, namely Russia has 0 modern destroyer and the 5 aforementioned modern frigates. As for weather Admiral Kuznetsov will be sold to China and refurbished in the next few years, time will tell.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
Points : 7341
Join date : 2016-11-06
And Chinese New ships are worst than Russian old ships, so who cares?
Oh, and I see you are ultimate warrior.
Mods?
Fyi, Kuznetsov was escorted by Grigorovich, gorshkovs and Russia's submarines. So no, it doesn't need a destroyer. That is blatantly false and isn't backed up by facts. No one sets those standards.
OK ultimate Warrior?
Oh, and I see you are ultimate warrior.
Mods?
Fyi, Kuznetsov was escorted by Grigorovich, gorshkovs and Russia's submarines. So no, it doesn't need a destroyer. That is blatantly false and isn't backed up by facts. No one sets those standards.
OK ultimate Warrior?
LMFS- Posts : 5111
Points : 5107
Join date : 2018-03-03
miketheterrible wrote:Mods?
I don't know who he is and I don't care one bit, but that above was indeed as crappy a trolling as it gets...
"China this and China that and Russia will retire the Kuznetsov... we'll see whether we buy it to turn it into a hotel and casino, we will buy the original sailors and some Russian admirals as decoration too..." f*ck off!
Arrow- Posts : 2978
Points : 2970
Join date : 2012-02-12
Russia has 0 modern destroyer wrote:
The proj 22350 frigate is better armed than the Chinese destroyer 052D.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
Arrow wrote:
The proj 22350 frigate is better armed than the Chinese destroyer 052D.
Doubt it. Type 052D has 64 VLS cells compared to Admiral Gorshkov's 16 VLS cells. That's 4 times as many. Also, Admiral Gorshkov is armed with medium range SAM whereas Type 052D is armed with long range SAM. Destroyers are necessary for escorting carriers. That's why China can build new carriers whereas Russia can't due to lack of modern destroyers.
Last edited by Tai Hai Chen on Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Begome dislikes this post
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
Probably the 30th ship under construction.
walle83 likes this post
Arrow- Posts : 2978
Points : 2970
Join date : 2012-02-12
Type 052D has 64 VLS cells compared to Admiral Gorshkov's 16 VLS cells. That's 4 times as many. Als wrote:
The new 22350 frigates have the 56VLS. So a little less than 052D. But the Russian ship will be equipped with much better rockets. For example 3M22 Calibr etc. Gorshkov has a redut SAM missile with missile range obout 150 km.
Tai Hai Chen- Posts : 305
Points : 305
Join date : 2020-09-21
Location : China
Arrow wrote:
The new 22350 frigates have the 56VLS. So a little less than 052D. But the Russian ship will be equipped with much better rockets. For example 3M22 Calibr etc. Gorshkov has a redut SAM missile with missile range obout 150 km.
56 VLS is far short of Type 055's 112 VLS. Chinese destroyers have CJ-10 which is said to be superior to Kalibr in performance. Whereas Redut has a max range of 120 km, HQ-9 has a range of 250 km. The biggest gap however is while the new Gorshkov is a decade away, Type 055 is already operational.
Begome dislikes this post
walle83- Posts : 973
Points : 983
Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
miketheterrible wrote:And Chinese New ships are worst than Russian old ships, so who cares?
So you honestly belive that an old russian Krivak frigate is "better " then a brand new Type-055 destroyer?
And since when are you an expert on chinese warships? I doubt you know anything about chinese missiles or sensors.
walle83- Posts : 973
Points : 983
Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
The 55 is not a small ship thats for sure.
GarryB- Posts : 39672
Points : 40168
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
So from the look of that, it has a single barrel 130mm gun up front, then some vertical launch cells, then a 30mm gatling gun for self defence, and a couple of rocket launchers... I assume their version of the RBU family of anti sub artillery rockets.
Not bad certainly, but also not amazing.
It makes it pretty clear to me that Russia really does need a newer larger calibre gun for its cruisers...
It is a copy of the Kh-55 from the 1980s... said to be superior in what ways exactly.... and by whom?
Not bad certainly, but also not amazing.
It makes it pretty clear to me that Russia really does need a newer larger calibre gun for its cruisers...
Chinese destroyers have CJ-10 which is said to be superior to Kalibr in performance.
It is a copy of the Kh-55 from the 1980s... said to be superior in what ways exactly.... and by whom?
walle83- Posts : 973
Points : 983
Join date : 2016-11-13
Location : Sweden
GarryB wrote:So from the look of that, it has a single barrel 130mm gun up front, then some vertical launch cells, then a 30mm gatling gun for self defence, and a couple of rocket launchers... I assume their version of the RBU family of anti sub artillery rockets.
Not bad certainly, but also not amazing.
It makes it pretty clear to me that Russia really does need a newer larger calibre gun for its cruisers...
What more does the Arleigh Burke class have?
The big question is what kind of missiles it will fill those 112 vls with.
|
|
|