New radar on one of the pilons...its for Khrizantema missile...
Last edited by galicije83 on Thu Feb 17, 2022 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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miketheterrible wrote:The MMW radar on top won't work for those missiles?
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That's a stupid design then. You don't mount another radar on aircraft for a different missile.Isos wrote:miketheterrible wrote:The MMW radar on top won't work for those missiles?
No. If it worked they wouldn't be carrying the other radar.
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More importantly radar pierces through thermal opaque smoke screens like its not even there. Very important since most tanks nowadays carry multispectral smoke dischargers - mostly manually drawn, which limits their effectiveness to the what can be provided by human attentivity and reaction times. But they're there, and readily improvable: dedicated softkill systems with their own sensors and control loops are actually rather affordable (see T-90s rocking Shtora-1 suites as standard), at least compared to their hardkill counterparts, the contrast explained mostly by the level of precision for each task.GarryB wrote:
The radar pod we are talking about is used for the Khrisanthema only in the worst conditions of zero visibility and can be used to engage targets that will never see what hit them. In better visibility the pod is not needed and the missile can be guided via laser beam riding like the Vikhr missiles and Ataka missiles... the Khrisanthema offering better penetration over both of those weapons.
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lyle6 wrote:The Russians had several experiments done on guidance handover using laser and radio riding missiles and they were mostly successful. Its probably not a stretch to assume this Khrizanthema pod could not only provide guidance to the parent vehicle but to the wingmen as well so the loss of a pylon to a pod is not that big of a deal.More importantly radar pierces through thermal opaque smoke screens like its not even there. Very important since most tanks nowadays carry multispectral smoke dischargers - mostly manually drawn, which limits their effectiveness to the what can be provided by human attentivity and reaction times. But they're there, and readily improvable: dedicated softkill systems with their own sensors and control loops are actually rather affordable (see T-90s rocking Shtora-1 suites as standard), at least compared to their hardkill counterparts, the contrast explained mostly by the level of precision for each task.GarryB wrote:
The radar pod we are talking about is used for the Khrisanthema only in the worst conditions of zero visibility and can be used to engage targets that will never see what hit them. In better visibility the pod is not needed and the missile can be guided via laser beam riding like the Vikhr missiles and Ataka missiles... the Khrisanthema offering better penetration over both of those weapons.
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Atmosphere wrote:
Interesting to note, the T-14 adresses the issue by carrying MMW (and possibly other bands) radar screening that is launched along with the opaque IR blocker screen.
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lyle6 wrote:Atmosphere wrote:
Interesting to note, the T-14 adresses the issue by carrying MMW (and possibly other bands) radar screening that is launched along with the opaque IR blocker screen.
Probably the reason why the T-14 has the deepest magazine for countermeasures. Not only is the tank absurdly hard to crack open, but to land a hit in the first place - is a tall order. An enemy tank would have to "eyeball" his first shot - no lasers so as to not trigger the smoke curtains, which severely reduces the accuracy. If he doesn't score a golden BB the tank would put up the smoke screen and since the APS has tracked the incoming shot the defending tank has the advantage of a loaded weapon and the precise location of his opponent - a total inversion of ambush dynamics. Ditto for ATGMs and anti-tank helicopters only that theirs is a lot easier engagement, since ATGMs are so much slower compared to hitscan-esque APFSDS.
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Exactly. The T-14 is not just an MBT, but a hardened spotter for the reconnaissance fire complex. Even better, since the kind of opposition that would make a T-14 unit stop in its tracks is the juicy sort of target for artillery.Hole wrote:Add to this the "networking" capabilities. Instead of the tank firing back the target gets hit by a guided artillery shell, directed by the tank.
Actually getting closer is suicide. Closing in would expose the expensive launch platform to exponentially more threats - you would not only have to worry about SAMs, AAAs but even AFV weapons. That only leaves you to go up the sophistication ladder - go for hypersonic, stealthy or loitering munitions. And go bankruptAtmosphere wrote:
A german tanker once did infact talk about how the laser warning systems on the T-90A were considered a serious problem by the german forces because you wouldn't be able to aim at it without having it know exactly that you're doing so, from which direction, and to instantly swivel the turret.
T-14 meanwhile is as you said, very hard to hit, even for airplanes and choppers, with signature managment up, reliably aiming at it would require getting dangerously close to air defense bubbles, or inside.
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TMA1 wrote:I know this isnt the right thread and please indulge me mods but I've been dying to get an answer to this question. I always thought with laser detectors and automatic smoke screen in fierce battle couldn't the tank essentially be frequently ejecting smoke and losing situational awareness?
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The APS automatically slews the turret to the exact bearing of the threat. When the tank clears the smoke screen the gunner would be in position to quickly engage his target.TMA1 wrote:I know this isnt the right thread and please indulge me mods but I've been dying to get an answer to this question. I always thought with laser detectors and automatic smoke screen in fierce battle couldn't the tank essentially be frequently ejecting smoke and losing situational awareness?
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lyle6 wrote:The APS automatically slews the turret to the exact bearing of the threat. When the tank clears the smoke screen the gunner would be in position to quickly engage his target.TMA1 wrote:I know this isnt the right thread and please indulge me mods but I've been dying to get an answer to this question. I always thought with laser detectors and automatic smoke screen in fierce battle couldn't the tank essentially be frequently ejecting smoke and losing situational awareness?
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You can drive through or around smokescreens, make your shot, then back into concealment. There's nothing to it.Isos wrote:
Smoke take quite some time to disipate.
Israel APS is very good because it does that and instead of smoke it destroys the atgm and the gunner can fire immediatle at the launcher.
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lyle6 wrote:You can drive through or around smokescreens, make your shot, then back into concealment. There's nothing to it.Isos wrote:
Smoke take quite some time to disipate.
Israel APS is very good because it does that and instead of smoke it destroys the atgm and the gunner can fire immediatle at the launcher.
And Trophy is good, but even the best hard kill APS has a dead time of a few seconds. Enough time for a second missile to connect in closely spaced salvo like those fired by a Khrizanthema or Kornet-D. Even for multiple ATGM teams with radios (or wristwatches) could do it.
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Most LWR should have little problems detecting the laser on beam riding missiles actually. Its not really a matter of sensitivity - even disposable detectors (such as the one of the back of the missile) can detect such fine signals just fine. What really makes such missiles "stealthy" is that guidance system actually makes it a point to only converge the beam at the very last second. Otherwise the missile is actually flying to somewhere above the tank for the majority of the flight.GarryB wrote:
The point is that for the west there is another threat... laser beam riding missiles... because the missiles look back into the beam the beam strength can be tiny, so at the target the beam strength might be less than the splash reflection of a laser ranging something next to your tank... perhaps even your own laser range finder splash energy.
Or the laser dies. For every 2 shooters you are engaging there should be 1 at the back doing overwatch.GarryB wrote:
To set your laser warning system to be sensitive to laser beam riding weapons means you will never be able to stay anywhere and will constantly be popping smoke.
A laser device could be brought into the area where enemy armour is located and just scan a laser beam across the entire landscape with passive optics watching for smoke popping to locate where the targets were... and then move... keep doing that all night and they turn their systems off.
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Most LWR should have little problems detecting the laser on beam riding missiles actually. Its not really a matter of sensitivity - even disposable detectors (such as the one of the back of the missile) can detect such fine signals just fine.
What really makes such missiles "stealthy" is that guidance system actually makes it a point to only converge the beam at the very last second. Otherwise the missile is actually flying to somewhere above the tank for the majority of the flight.
Or the laser dies. For every 2 shooters you are engaging there should be 1 at the back doing overwatch.
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The situation you described has already happened - years before in the testing grounds. Part of the reason why modern stuff takes too long to enter service is the increasing proliferation of sensors and networking gear that has to slot in nicely with all other equipment sharing the same EM spectrum.GarryB wrote:
The point I am getting across is that if there was no filtering they would be tracking all sorts of shit you have no interest in and as it beeps its crazy song warning you about this or that or the other which might include the laser splash of your own laser rangefinder then after a day or two you start getting teh situation where the damn things are declared fucking useless and turned off or the sensitivity is turned down so while of course it will detect that laser energy, it will not warn the crew about it because if it did it would be constantly beeping and they would turn it off.
The beam divergence of laser target designators are typically in the nought point parts milliradians. An enormous beam would be wasting laser energy all over the place - which is not great from the POV of a portable system with minimal power requirements.GarryB wrote:
Another factor is that laser beam riding missile beams are not pencil thin streams of laser light... they are enormous... instead of a 1 or 2 degree beam angle the beam angle can be 20 degrees which means most of the enemy vehicles will likely detect the beam... but which one is the missile going for?
Losing a complement of smokescreen is far better than losing a complement of tanks. Establishing an ambush situation where your guys let off the first shot is no trivial feat. Lots of work would have to be done identifying likely routes of advance, making sure they follow that route, and of course preparing defensive positions, etc. All to lose that initiative with a couple of well-placed smokescreens.GarryB wrote:
When they all pop smoke and withdraw the missile might miss, but that whole unit just fired off some of their smoke and have revealed the formation they had adopted.
The Russians are still understandably reticent over expensive weapons with active sensors onboard. A neat alternative could be to use the Orlan-10 model: offload the sensors to a cheaper (and easily replaceable) platform that could still be reused. The Russian version of Javelin could easily be the Gran guided mortars guided by an Orlan-10 with a laser target designator. For the price of a single Jav missile you retain mass effect and precisionGarryB wrote:
I would expect over time the mast mounted radar could be upgraded to guide the missile in zero visibility too but as they don't have any other MMW radar guided weapons, it probably wasn't a requirement... the radar was a mechanism that they can use whereby they can pop up from behind cover and scan the ground in front of them very very quickly... within one to two seconds and then pop down behind cover and perhaps even move laterally while the information from the scan is processed and analysed and converted into targets and prioritised.... that information can then be shared with the rest of the unit and nearby units and decisions can be made about what needs to be attack and what first... it would then pop up from a different position and launch a missile... with no radar scan to reveal its presence it should be able to launch missiles relatively safely assuming the standoff range is sufficient.
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