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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:58 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:with 2 pilots & all its missiles, the Ka-52M is now an attack helo, just like the naval Ka-29.
    Time wil tell if Mi-28NM will be as popular as the AH-64 Apache.

    When US oblige its dogs to buy it, it doesn't make it popular.

    Mi-28 has a good export success.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:58 am

    with 2 pilots & all its missiles, the Ka-52M is now an attack helo, just like the naval Ka-29.

    Ka-29 is primarily a troop transport helo... the army equivalent would be the Mi-17.

    The Ka-52 is a scout attack helicopter, while the Mi-28 replaces the Hind in the assault roles.

    A bit like the Huey Cobra and the Apache... one is slightly cheaper but as they both get upgrades with new technology neither are actually cheap.

    They are still using Hinds simply because of their useful troop transport capacity.

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    Werewolf
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    Post  Werewolf Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:09 am

    The Ka-52 like the Ka-50 also has a wider weapons variety compared to Mi-28NM.
    Due to their intended usage on naval vessels it was equipped with the necessary electronics to launch ASMs and AShMs, while the Mi-28NM at least was never said nor seen with such capability.
    The flight characteristics for Ka-52 is also superior compared to Mi-28NM based on the co-axial design as well as the aerodynamics.
    I had somewhere a rough comparison chart regarding their characteristics on this forum and on my home computer.
    Most of the other aspects have been already said by others and one more additional thing that has been proven to exist since Ka-50 is the automated scanning and image recognition system Okhotnik which I haven't seen on Mi-28N, yet. But I might also be wrong on this point, absence of information does not mean absence of the technology, which becomes more common nowadays.

    The AH-1Z also has some of the more favorable weapons variety compared to the AH-64E since it also was destined to serve for the marines from vessels.
    It can use AShMs while the Apache never was intended and most probably never will.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:34 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:with 2 pilots & all its missiles, the Ka-52M is now an attack helo, just like the naval Ka-29.
    Time wil tell if Mi-28NM will be as popular as the AH-64 Apache.
    When US oblige its dogs to buy it, it doesn't make it popular.
    Mi-28 has a good export success.
    only 3 nations so far imported them, & India chose AH-64 instead: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8-28#%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%B8_%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%8B
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-28

    EW with helos: https://youtu.be/rI6UC5Qrzaw
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 07, 2023 5:37 pm

    India is full of corrupted generals that push to buy western stuff for decades.

    That's why they sell to indian expensive stuff at an even higher price than normally. Just look at the rafale price.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Sep 07, 2023 5:45 pm

    The Mi-28 was still deficient by 20 points, so they had a good excuse to reject it.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 07, 2023 6:02 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The Mi-28 was still deficient by 20 points, so they had a good excuse to reject it.

    Which mi-28 ?

    First version is for day time tank hunting without radar. N version is with night capability. NM is for the last version with a top radar. Last version has the new 20km missiles that is sending nato tank in orbit.

    Apache is an expebsive toy. Indians paid 150 million per unit. Nothing justifies such price. Even less now we see how nato junk is burning in ukraine.

    https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/us-india-sign-contract-for-6-more-ah-64e-attack-helicopters/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20State%20Department%20approved,%24930%20million%20in%20June%202018.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:34 pm

    I guess they didn't want to wait for the NM version & back then it wasn't combat proven anyway. India saves $Bs on cheap oil from Russia & has huge trade surplus to afford buying superexpencive arms, just like the Gulf States.
    I doubt they'd have easy time keeping Mi-28s as their Russian support would be crippled by US financial sanctions now &/ the conflict in Ukraine.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:19 pm

    Apache is still not combat proven. I want to see it in an area full of manpads.

    Indians don't have surplus of money since 90% of their people eat and live in their own shit. They live in corruption. Golf state are gold compare to india.

    To use US weapons you need US contractors and US green light. Once a war start the contractors leave and they don't allow you to fly the helicopter in dabgerous area to keep its invincibility.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:44 pm

    Apache is still not combat proven. I want to see it in an area full of manpads.
    Iraqis & Afghans had many of them since the early 1990s!
    Indians don't have surplus of money since 90% of their people eat and live in their own shit.
    but their gov. does, & has enough to build NP subs & buy/build aircraft carriers, not to mention sending a mission to the Moon.
    To use US weapons you need US contractors and US green light. Once a war start the contractors leave and they don't allow you to fly the helicopter in dabgerous area to keep its invincibility.
    the US won't object their use vs. PRC/Pakistan, as to them they r also hostile states allied with each other. To prove themselves more & to keep them up to date, they must be sent to fight.
    I recall how the USAF was keeping its new EW planes from being used in Vietnam but soon had to send them there, risking their secret gear capture.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:43 am

    The Indians didn't make a bad choice choosing the Apache, it is a mature design even if it is maintenance intensive.

    During Desert Storm they got acceptable operational rates by tripling the support budget and maintenance for the aircraft.

    It is no wonder machine... those enormous side windows are just plexiglass... a .22lr would penetrate it.

    At the time they decided the Mi-28 was probably not good enough, though it would be much cheaper and certainly not maintenance intensive... in fact designed to be easy to operate and maintain in the field like most Russian kit.

    They made their choice, which is fine, but I rather suspect that over time they are going to realise waiting for improved models might have been a much better solution for them.

    India saves $Bs on cheap oil from Russia & has huge trade surplus to afford buying superexpencive arms, just like the Gulf States.

    So you are claiming the reverse of reality... India is importing Russian energy and it is also buying Russian weapons too, but is not exporting very much at all to Russia... which is totally different from the gulf states that are exporting energy for large amounts of western money and then buying lots of stuff from the west like overpriced weapons and pretty much everything else they use because they really don't make anything (a situation the west has encouraged BTW).

    Regarding the performance and weapons options for the Mi-28 it is pretty clear its anti armour weapons can cope with western armour and those weapons are a fraction of the price of US missiles.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:01 am

    So you are claiming the reverse of reality... India is importing Russian energy and it is also buying Russian weapons too, but is not exporting very much at all to Russia...
    they do export some tropical products to Russia & many other things to other countries, otherwise India would be w/o her trade surplus.
    They r deversifying their arms sources, like some others; as a result, less Russian arms r being bought.
    Later, they may decide to sell their Apaches (with US approval, of course), if suitable replacements r found, domestic or foreghn.
    By then, hopefully, the Mi-28NM will be mature & proven, so they may buy some of them. Better late than never!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total
    George1
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    Post  George1 Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Apache is still not combat proven. I want to see it in an area full of manpads.
    Iraqis & Afghans had many of them since the early 1990s!
    Indians don't have surplus of money since 90% of their people eat and live in their own shit.
    but their gov. does, & has enough to build NP subs & buy/build aircraft carriers, not to mention sending a mission to the Moon.
    To use US weapons you need US contractors and US green light. Once a war start the contractors leave and they don't allow you to fly the helicopter in dabgerous area to keep its invincibility.
    the US won't object their use vs. PRC/Pakistan, as to them they r also hostile states allied with each other. To prove themselves more & to keep them up to date, they must be sent to fight.
    I recall how the USAF was keeping its new EW planes from being used in Vietnam but soon had to send them there, risking their secret gear capture.


    stay on topic because for one more time you drive discussion out of subject

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 08, 2023 10:46 am

    they do export some tropical products to Russia & many other things to other countries, otherwise India would be w/o her trade surplus.

    The biggest trade problem between India and Russia is that India buys Russian weapons but does not sell a lot  back to Russia... they didn't used to buy much energy from Russia but now they do which actually makes it a lot worse.

    India uses rupees to buy Russian weapons and energy, and Russia ends up with all these rupees with nothing to spend them on... it has been mentioned multiple times in the thread on trade between the two countries.

    The US might have sold several different weapon systems to India and I would think it would be unlikely that the US will rock the boat enough for them to want to get rid of all their American equipment because America wants to use India as a blunt weapon to try to damage China with, but how long can India lead the US on for?

    How long will India continue to use such inferior equipment that costs them so much?

    The US wont allow them to sell their Apaches if they know they will be replacing them with Russian helicopters.

    It is all political and really not a reflection on the Mi-28 in any way.

    It is still being developed and improved and getting better all the time with new weapons and equipment.

    India has a trade surplus... but not with Russia.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:46 am

    Russia could use those roopies to buy ships. Deliver the plans for a simple 150m destroyer and let them build it. Put russian hardware in russian shipyards.

    Indians have mastered quite well ship construction. Maybe not design and equipement but for the structure they can do a very good work.

    It would be a quick and easy way to increase their navy instead of finding ways to convert their roopie and loose money.

    They could even attract more indian navy as a customer.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:28 pm

    Isos wrote:Russia could use those roopies to buy ships. []

    It would be a quick and easy way to increase their navy instead of finding ways to convert their roopie and loose money.

    They could even attract more indian navy as a customer.

    anything requiring human skills and labor intensive work would work well l in that exchange Very Happy

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    ludovicense
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    Post  ludovicense Fri Sep 08, 2023 2:41 pm

    It is not corruption that made India choose the Apache, but rather because Russian helicopters were not as improved and proven in combat as they are today, as Garry mentioned. Corruption is ingrained in the arms industry all over the world. Political factors and broad economic agreements also collaborate when choosing a certain equipment. In summary, the purchase of weapons is not simply based on technical criteria. It involves many more factors.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:48 pm

    Older Mi-28s vs. UAVs now: https://ura.news/news/1052683396

    Let's hope the Mi-28NMs stay on a par with the improved AH-64s!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 08, 2023 7:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, link)
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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 09, 2023 6:32 am

    Russia could use those roopies to buy ships. Deliver the plans for a simple 150m destroyer and let them build it. Put russian hardware in russian shipyards.

    Indians have mastered quite well ship construction. Maybe not design and equipement but for the structure they can do a very good work.

    They could get the Indians to build some of their commercial ships to free up Russian yards to build military vessels.

    There are lots of things they would need made that are not military related that India would be excellent at providing, but they could also use the money to set up a Russian lending bank to promote small businesses in India that could be run at a tiny profit where the profit could be given to orphanages and other charities in India.

    The companies they help build could be encouraged to trade with Russia to benefit Russia with this Russian money in this Indian currency.

    It would be a quick and easy way to increase their navy instead of finding ways to convert their roopie and loose money.

    Russia needs lots of ships built... civilian and military... there would be plenty of civilian ships and projects they could give to India.

    I would think it would make sense for Russia to start a few joint venture projects with India to perhaps design some military ships for export that India but also other navies might be interested in that could be made in India with Indian and Russian funds... using Russian funds would allow Russia to decide who can or cannot buy the final product of course, but a good opportunity for cooperation too.

    Maybe they could design and make naval drones for export?


    anything requiring human skills and labor intensive work would work well l in that exchange

    They have plenty of skilled craftsmen with a lot of talent which is not being properly exploited.

    (exploited in a good way... for their own good as well as the greater good...)

    It is not corruption that made India choose the Apache, but rather because Russian helicopters were not as improved and proven in combat as they are today, as Garry mentioned.

    Sadly corruption is always a factor, but in this case I would say they probably chose the best aircraft at the time despite the enormous price.

    Even at the time I was saying that the Mi-28 has enormous potential and will be funded and improved over time and will get better, but that the Apache is already good.... ironically it needs improvements in areas that are not happening... ie maintenance and cost issues are not really being addressed... because the US military expects to pay top dollar so the corruption continues.

    Corruption is ingrained in the arms industry all over the world.

    There is a huge difference between individual examples of petty theft or bribes and institutionalised corruption that we see in the western MIC.

    As we have seen in the Ukraine and even in Syria western weapons are not superior at all, in fact in many areas they are inferior because of their enormous cost and fragility and high maintenance needs in a combat zone where such support might not be easy to supply.

    So the old questions remain... why is western stuff so damn expensive because the answer that it is super stuff that will walk all over the cheap stuff the Russians and Chinese use does not hold water any more.

    As Lsos points out... decades of no competition because Soviet/Russian stuff is not allowed in HATO means western weapon makers just had to beat each other so the bar was not set high... and fighting tribesmen and tiny forces they could overwhelm with numbers at least locally with their mobility meant they weren't really tested.

    Now they are being tested and are failing.

    In summary, the purchase of weapons is not simply based on technical criteria. It involves many more factors.

    You can be more honest than that... there is our team and their team and if you are in the G-7 or HATO then you buy our shit and if you are on their side then you can't have our stuff, but if you are a neutral and we want your oil or gold or lithium or in the case of India... we want the blood of your young men to kill Chinese young men then we will push for you to buy our shit too and we will make all sorts of promises if you buy our stuff and get moody and nasty if you don't buy our stuff.

    Older Mi-28s vs. UAVs now: https://ura.news/news/1052683396

    Let's hope the Mi-28NMs stay on a par with the improved AH-64s!

    The older Mi-28s would be excellent for hunting drones... their optics would be fine to detect drones out to a couple of kms but even the best radars wont do much better than that, and their laser range finders and optics and 30mm cannon with airburst cannon shells would be excellent for shooting down light aircraft like drones.

    Flight speed is pretty good and they can work in teams...

    The article on the Apaches says they have added the capacity to control drones rather than shoot them down. The equipment they are talking about putting on the mast position of the Apache seems to be similar to the stuff fitted to the wingtips of the Ka-52 for controlling and communicating with drones... but then it is a scout helicopter and is more likely to be operating drones than the Havoc is.
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    Post  Tolstoy Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:46 am

    Isos wrote:Indians have mastered quite well ship construction. Maybe not design and equipement but for the structure they can do a very good work.
    They can't even design a turbine and imports that from Ukraine. Anyone can design a ship, even North Korea can.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 09, 2023 9:50 am

    Tolstoy wrote:
    Isos wrote:Indians have mastered quite well ship construction. Maybe not design and equipement but for the structure they can do a very good work.
    They can't even design a turbine and imports that from Ukraine. Anyone can design a ship, even North Korea can.

    I was talking about building the structure with russian plans.

    Russia will design it for its needs and adapt it for its weapons.

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    Post  Tolstoy Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:53 am

    Isos wrote:I was talking about building the structure with russian plans.

    Russia will design it for its needs and adapt it for its weapons.
    Then it should be China, not India.

    Because China is an ally of Russia and won't back stab Russia like India. They are also more professional and will stick to a deadline and build ships at a far more affordable price than India.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 09, 2023 3:11 pm

    Tolstoy wrote:
    Isos wrote:I was talking about building the structure with russian plans.

    Russia will design it for its needs and adapt it for its weapons.
    Then it should be China, not India.

    Because China is an ally of Russia and won't back stab Russia like India. They are also more professional and will stick to a deadline and build ships at a far more affordable price than India.

    lol1

    Yeah.. no. China isn't an ally. They don't even provide weapons right now when everyone knows that taking Ukraine is done by NATO to destabilize Russia and destroys it to finnally put bases all over China.

    Yet China licks US boots.

    In terms of militaro-industrial point of view, China copied everything russians sold them and do n't even buy russian stuff anymore.

    At least India is still buying russian stuff and isn't as afriad as China to say no to the US.

    The only real allies right now of Russia are North Korea, Syria and Iran.

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Sep 09, 2023 11:18 pm

    Isos wrote:

    lol1

    Yeah.. no. China isn't an ally. They don't even provide weapons right now when everyone knows that taking Ukraine is done by NATO to destabilize Russia and destroys it to finnally put bases all over China.

    no actually is an ally, who is delivering all electronics? and stuff on civilian market? who is buying Russian stuff en masse? Chine ois no way licking US boots,


    []

    In terms of militaro-industrial point of view, China copied everything russians sold them and do n't even buy russian stuff anymore.

    some, not all some licenses were sold. Russian stuff they buy S-400 or Su-35. Russia doesnt have much of industrial capcity to sell more rn durign war.



    At least India is still buying Russian stuff and isn't as afriad as China to say no to the US.

    booth are saying not o the USA when it is in their interests of course.


    The only real allies right now of Russia are North Korea, Syria and Iran.
    Surely their national interests are very close to Russian ones

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    Post  George1 Sun Sep 10, 2023 12:01 am

    stay on topic pls

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