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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Khepesh
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:02 pm

    Display of tanks in Gorlovka today for "Day of Tankmen"


    Edit: Note the modification to the turret protection on two of the T-72


    Last edited by Khepesh on Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Karl Haushofer

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    Post  Karl Haushofer Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:05 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Riiiiiight... and this negative reaction would be dispelled if Putin was to order a cruise missile strike on the Verkhona Rada in response to seizure of two Russian citizens?

    Putin has no choice to step softly and make the agreeable political noises as the scumbag Oligarch-controlled corporate media here in the West will jump all over Russia at ANY chance.  Israel on the other hand can deliberately target and murder hundreds of Palestinian civilians in the Gaza open-air ghetto during another round of pre-planned and orchestrated aggression, and the same scumbag media strains its collective neck in its unseemly rush to look the other way, while the bought-and-paid-for whores aka Western Politicians produce copious quantities of hot air to excuse Zionist crimes.

    You know this is true, yet you write this shit....

    No need to go this far. Just do a tit-for-tat. Send agents to Ukraine and kidnap their soldiers.
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    Post  auslander Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:20 pm

    Khepesh wrote:There was all this talk of action by pravy sektor in various places yesterday, including Odessa. Nothing happened. It was forgotten that Yarosh is still in hospital and is not going to lead any protests. It is said Yarosh is in hospital because of metal fragments in an elbow, but this article suggests it may be another reason. He is in hospital in Dnepropetrovsk, and yesterday 30 members of pravy sektor were arrested at the village of Lyubomirovka, in the article it says Lyubimovka but seems this is an error, but whichever village they are both near Dnepropetrovsk. Seems pravy sektor were attempting to steal sunflowers when they were ambushed by MVD spetsnaz. One of pravy sektor was shot in the leg. Nothing is straight forward in Ukraine, everything can be something else. http://antifashist.com/item/yarosh-eshhe-v-bolnichke-30-dnepropetrovskih-psov-uzhe-v-tyurme.html#ixzz3lbSCEEQZ

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21 - Page 23 2ee8a8870638

    A few days ago they were quite successful in harvesting some hectares of sunflowers east of Nikolievka. Seems they simply took the machines at gunpoint, posted armed guards and had at the harvest. Anarchy much? Looks like whoever owns the crops took umbrage and arranged a little get together. Never fear, the thugs will be out of jail tomorrow, just as Yarosh will have a Yulia like recovery and be out of hospital.
    ExBeobachter1987
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    Post  ExBeobachter1987 Sun Sep 13, 2015 12:56 pm

    Khepesh wrote:He is in hospital in Dnepropetrovsk, and yesterday 30 members of pravy sektor were arrested at the village of Lyubomirovka, in the article it says Lyubimovka but seems this is an error, but whichever village they are both near Dnepropetrovsk. Seems pravy sektor were attempting to steal sunflowers when they were ambushed by MVD spetsnaz. One of pravy sektor was shot in the leg. Nothing is straight forward in Ukraine, everything can be something else. http://antifashist.com/item/yarosh-eshhe-v-bolnichke-30-dnepropetrovskih-psov-uzhe-v-tyurme.html#ixzz3lbSCEEQZ

    I did not expect them to be that desperate.

    Karl Haushofer wrote:No need to go this far. Just do a tit-for-tat. Send agents to Ukraine and kidnap their soldiers.

    What would the Kremlin gain from such actions? Kiev does not care for its soldiers and would refuse any prisoner exchange.
    Unless these soldiers ends up defecting (or are responsible for crimes against Russian citizens and Russia can prove it), it would be counterproductive.
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    Post  franco Sun Sep 13, 2015 1:00 pm

    So Kiev is only prepared to negotiate with Donbas leaders after they surrender.


    Interfax

    September 13, 2015 11:59

    Klimkin: Kyiv will not conduct dialogue with Donbas leaders

    BERLIN. Sept 13 (Interfax) - Kyiv will not conduct a dialogue with the leaders of Donbas who came to power as a result of fake elections of November 2, 2014, Ukrainian Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin has said.

    "If by Donetsk and Luhansk you mean legitimate representatives of Donbas elected in fair and free elections, if you mean them as those who returned the Ukrainian legal space to Donbas, who returned Ukrainian law to Donbas, we are not only prepared for direct dialogue, we must conduct it. If by representatives of Donetsk and Luhansk you mean those who appeared as a result of fake elections of November 2 last year, then it is not a road forward," Klimkin said answering a question from a Russian reporter whether Kyiv is ready for a direct dialogue with representatives of Donetsk and Luhansk.
    Neutrality
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    Post  Neutrality Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:29 pm

    So the way I should see it is that Kiev literally sent operatives into Russian territory and kidnapped active Russian soldiers? Isn't that an act of war? If this is how it is I think maybe Churkin should hold an urgent meeting in the UNSC and demand their immediate release, explain to the clowns in Kiev that this is a blatant act of war and that they will use "any means necessary" to get their men released. Any means necessary could be either political, economical or military. Personally I'd love to see some SSO guys doing a run and gun on the facility where the guys are being held. Sends a very powerful message to Kiev as well: you don't fuck with us like that.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I would like what those clowns think they will accomplish with this? Provoking Russia into firebombing them this way will not get them desired cookie points from the EU.

    This also does wonders for Ukraine's popularity among Russian population.

    Those guys will be back home sooner rather than later otherwise ukrops risk several unintended consequences in rather unfavourable weather and in fron of increasingly disinterested EU audience.

    On the side note, I've been thinking about that Minsk thingie. If by some miracle it does work as advertised, how will Kiev justify keeping 90000 goons on demarcation line? And paying for them?

    And if they remove them, what will stop Novos from just walking over and planting a flag at real estate of their choosing without a bullet fired?

    No win situation if there ever was one... Razz

    Russia can raise this question diplomatically, including through EU channels, and get the soldiers back in no time.

    No need for a military operation.

    Afterwards it can double security on all its borders.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:37 pm

    sepheronx wrote:There is also the possibility that they were indeed walking along the border, decided to trip over or whatever, and was grabbed as soon as possible and the defence ministry is trying to cover for the idiots mistake.

    That's also a possibility, we shouldn't assume the Russian MoD is always telling the truth just because it's the Russian MoD.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:39 pm

    Neutrality wrote:So the way I should see it is that Kiev literally sent operatives into Russian territory and kidnapped active Russian soldiers? Isn't that an act of war? If this is how it is I think maybe Churkin should hold an urgent meeting in the UNSC and demand their immediate release, explain to the clowns in Kiev that this is a blatant act of war and that they will use "any means necessary" to get their men released. Any means necessary could be either political, economical or military. Personally I'd love to see some SSO guys doing a run and gun on the facility where the guys are being held. Sends a very powerful message to Kiev as well: you don't fuck with us like that.

    All depends on how the situation went down.  Judging by google earths setup of the border, they could have been crossing a backyard and ended up in Ukraine.

    That said, they should be more aggressive in demanding their guys back.  If they dont, the Russia government will look like they dont care about their citizens and will then end up voting them out, due to this.  The Gov needs to give the impression that they care about their citizens, even if they dont.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:41 pm

    Neutrality wrote:So the way I should see it is that Kiev literally sent operatives into Russian territory and kidnapped active Russian soldiers? Isn't that an act of war? If this is how it is I think maybe Churkin should hold an urgent meeting in the UNSC and demand their immediate release, explain to the clowns in Kiev that this is a blatant act of war and that they will use "any means necessary" to get their men released. Any means necessary could be either political, economical or military. Personally I'd love to see some SSO guys doing a run and gun on the facility where the guys are being held. Sends a very powerful message to Kiev as well: you don't fuck with us like that.

    War should be the last recourse.

    If its possible to solve a problem w/o violence and ensure that it doesn't happen again, then that's what should be done.

    If not, and if this story checks out, or if the soldiers were harmed in any way (the story makes it sound more like they're natives of the village or were off-duty than actually patrolling somewhere), then of course a commando raid can be cleared.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:56 pm

    Last time this happened where soldiers were nabbed near border, Ukraine released them. Who knows this time. They may very well did this to use as blackmail and to get something out of this.

    Good Russia demanded them back. But they better keep up on this rather than have it fall to obscurity.

    Happened to Iran from Pakistan side. 5 border guards kidnapped by Pakistani militants. 1 died and rest were released. Iran did threaten to go and get the guys back themselves if need be. Hopefully Russia states the same.
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    Post  Neutrality Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:04 pm

    I'm a more diplomacy guy myself however I also believe one strong and decisive action from Russia (IF it's deemed necessary) will remove this idea out of Kiev's head next time they try to pull of such shenanigans. In this case I admire what the IDF does. Operation Entebbe, immediate retaliation against Lebanon for capturing IDF soldiers and the infamous Cherbourg operation show that the IDF don't let themselves get bullied.
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    Post  Khepesh Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:54 pm

    IED explodes and causes fire at the Ukranian "cultural" center, "Ukranian World" in Warsaw, no injuries. http://www.politnavigator.net/v-varshave-vzorvali-ukrainskijj-kulturnyjj-centr.html
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    Post  higurashihougi Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:26 pm

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150913/1026938824/donetsk-polling-media-frenzy.html

    On Friday, the Donetsk News Agency published incomplete results to polling appearing show that less than a third of the population of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic actually supported the republic. Ukrainian media and their liberal Russian allies quickly jumped at the chance to stick it to the DPR. But what did polling really reveal?

    Secondly, the source of glee and amusement among the Ukrainian media and their Russian supporters appears to have been the result of an attempt by the Donetsk News Agency to stretch out their story on the poll's results, releasing them in small chunks, bit by bit, showing residents' responses from among a list of several options.

    Realizing their mistake Saturday, only after pro-Maidan crowd had already had their field day, the DNA released the more detailed results of the poll, compiling them in one place. The complete poll results clarified that the answer "I'm against the authorities that came to power as a result of the events of Maidan," which garnered 29 percent support and became the basis for the anti-DPR media's hysteria, was found to have been one of only several answers to a question about why residents "for one reason or another, expressed support for the DPR."

    Other answers included "I am a patriot of Donbass" (36 percent), "I am opposed to the oligarchs in power in Ukraine" (13 percent), and "I am a patriot of Russia" (10 percent). Only 4 percent of respondents said that they did not support the DPR, while 7 percent saying that they remained undecided.
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    Post  Regular Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:04 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Last time this happened where soldiers were nabbed near border, Ukraine released them.  Who knows this time.  They may very well did this to use as blackmail and to get something out of this.

    Good Russia demanded them back.  But they better keep up on this rather than have it fall to obscurity.

    Happened to Iran from Pakistan side.  5 border guards kidnapped by Pakistani militants.  1 died and rest were released.  Iran did threaten to go and get the guys back themselves if need be.  Hopefully Russia states the same.

    It's good that they were actually captured, not killed. But I believe they were lured in by Ukrainians. They are plenty of fake rebel recruiters on VK.
    Even if guys get 20 years in jail, I doubt they will serve full sentence Wink Hell even 5 years is a strech for Ukraine as a country.
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    Post  sepheronx Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:12 pm

    Regular wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Last time this happened where soldiers were nabbed near border, Ukraine released them.  Who knows this time.  They may very well did this to use as blackmail and to get something out of this.

    Good Russia demanded them back.  But they better keep up on this rather than have it fall to obscurity.

    Happened to Iran from Pakistan side.  5 border guards kidnapped by Pakistani militants.  1 died and rest were released.  Iran did threaten to go and get the guys back themselves if need be.  Hopefully Russia states the same.

    It's good that they were actually captured, not killed. But I believe they were lured in by Ukrainians. They are plenty of fake rebel recruiters on VK.
    Even if guys get 20 years in jail, I doubt they will serve full sentence Wink Hell even 5 years is a strech for Ukraine as a country.

    Most probable. But, last time Russia didnt shy away from saying that their troops made a mistake at border and crossed it.  This time, they are saying that the two were kidnapped wirhin the village.

    So I have reason to believe it was Kievs men who stepped over the border and nabbed them.  Seeing google earth images gives me indication there is plenty of places were both sides can make an easy mistake about location of borders.  But that doesnt mean it was correct.  We barely have enough information as to where theybwere nabbed but Kiev claims they waltzed over the border line.  So my assumption is they were at the border at around 6am.  Very early.  So maybe you are right, lured in.  Since Russian defense ministry state that they were informed by the family of this, gives me the reason that Kiev may be correct and the two did walk over the border (no reason to go in and capture a guy and his brother).

    Hopefully the guys are fine and will be released soon.  But hopefully now Russia will do a far better job at securing its borders.  Sad that an idea of a fence is a good one regarding these two nations, but let us look at reality here. Seems that people have trouble knowing where borders are and such misakes makes a lot of bad PR.
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    Post  higurashihougi Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:26 pm

    Basically Kyiv is planning to throw some of the National Guard into the battlefield.

    I don't know it is just me or probably Kyiv is facing severe problem of manpower ?

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150913/1026941822/ukraine-avakov-special-forces-brigade.html

    A new brigade of the Ukrainian special forces, which is already being formed as part of the country's National Guard, will be deployed to eastern Ukraine to take part in its so-called "anti-terrorist operation" against the breakaway Donbass region, according to Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.

    According to his Facebook page, the brigade will be trained in line with NATO standards and will only include volunteers, mostly those with combat experience.

    He also said that the brigade's chief of staff had studied military science for two years in the United States.
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    Post  franco Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:34 pm

    higurashihougi wrote:Basically Kyiv is planning to throw some of the National Guard into the battlefield.

    I don't know it is just me or probably Kyiv is facing severe problem of manpower ?

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150913/1026941822/ukraine-avakov-special-forces-brigade.html

    A new brigade of the Ukrainian special forces, which is already being formed as part of the country's National Guard, will be deployed to eastern Ukraine to take part in its so-called "anti-terrorist operation" against the breakaway Donbass region, according to Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.

    According to his Facebook page, the brigade will be trained in line with NATO standards and will only include volunteers, mostly those with combat experience.

    He also said that the brigade's chief of staff had studied military science for two years in the United States.

    The National Guard already have 2 brigades/regiments on the front line and these new guys are the ones being trained by NATO in the West right now.
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    Post  gregoire Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:43 pm

    franco wrote:
    higurashihougi wrote:Basically Kyiv is planning to throw some of the National Guard into the battlefield.

    I don't know it is just me or probably Kyiv is facing severe problem of manpower ?

    http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150913/1026941822/ukraine-avakov-special-forces-brigade.html

    A new brigade of the Ukrainian special forces, which is already being formed as part of the country's National Guard, will be deployed to eastern Ukraine to take part in its so-called "anti-terrorist operation" against the breakaway Donbass region, according to Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.

    According to his Facebook page, the brigade will be trained in line with NATO standards and will only include volunteers, mostly those with combat experience.

    He also said that the brigade's chief of staff had studied military science for two years in the United States.

    The National Guard already have 2 brigades/regiments on the front line and these new guys are the ones being trained by NATO in the West right now.  

    It seems (and I know it is) like NATO's aims are totally contrary to the EU.
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    Post  franco Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:48 pm



    KIEV, September 13. /TASS/. Large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine, Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko said in an interview with national television channels on Sunday.

    "Today, the process of large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine," he said.


    Very Interesting!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krD4hdGvGHM&index=1&list=PL2RzsTTHhhwVjSKPk3Al1tZ37D8XJDIEt
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:28 pm

    franco wrote:

    KIEV, September 13. /TASS/. Large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine, Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko said in an interview with national television channels on Sunday.

    "Today, the process of large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine," he said.


    Very Interesting!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krD4hdGvGHM&index=1&list=PL2RzsTTHhhwVjSKPk3Al1tZ37D8XJDIEt
    The whole quote. Is this the same as they did in March, demob the next batch, oldest serving, conscripts?

    KIEV, September 13. /TASS/. Large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine, Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko said in an interview with national television channels on Sunday. "Today, the process of large-scale demobilization is underway in Ukraine," he said. He said that at his order the defence ministry and the general headquarters on September began the process of demobilization. Concurrently, they are training new personnel. "It is an absolutely logical position: we have mobilized personnel, now they are being trained at mobilization centres to defend the state. And large-scale demobilization is underway - those mobilized earlier are returning home," he said.
    Poroshenko says Ukraine has financial reserve to be used to reinforce army, improve social standards

    Ukraine has set up a financial reserve that will be used to boost the country’s combat readiness and improve social standards, Ukrainian President Pyotr Poroshenko said in an interview with Ukrainian television channels.

    "A corresponding reserve has been set up," he said, adding that it would be used in "priority areas." "First, (it will be used) on security and defence of the state, since the state must emsure protection and defence," Poroshenko said. "Second - social standards.".
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    Post  JohninMK Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:37 pm

    Have not seen this explained or put so clearly before.

    The Ukrainian government is on the horns of a dilemma: although Kiev wants the Donbass region to come back into its fold, it realizes at the same time that it would be politically disastrous for the present regime, US author Eric Zuesse stresses.

    Citing Internal Minister Arsen Avakov's adviser Anton Gerashenko, US author and investigative historian Eric Zuesse points out that re-absorbing of the breakaway Donbass region would be politically disastrous for the Ukrainian government. "[Russian President] Putin will do everything to return Donbass to the Ukraine… in order to allow pro-Russian inhabitants of Donetsk and Luhansk regions to vote and change the configuration of power in our country," Gerashenko said in an interview to Ukraine's Apostrophe media outlet.

    According to Zuesse, the Ukrainian government is facing a painful dilemma: while Kiev admits the necessity to return the Donbass region to the Ukrainian fold, it realizes that the electorate of the breakaway republics may significantly change the balance of power in the government of Ukraine by voting for pro-Russian politicians.

    Indeed, it was Donbass voters who prevented "the far-right, pro-Western, pro-Gladio, rabidly anti-Russian, Tymoshenko, from being elected as Ukraine's President in 2010," the US author noted. "Donbass residents are overwhelmingly the people who placed [former Ukrainian president Viktor] Yanukovych into the Presidency; they are overwhelmingly the reason why Yulia Tymoshenko, the person that US President Obama had hoped would win the 25 May 2014, the first post-coup, election, wasn't already elected as Ukraine's President in 2010," the investigative historian remarked. Incredible as it may seem, the Ukrainian leadership wants to seize Donbass but it does not want its residents back, Zuesse pointed out referring to Gerashenko's interview.

    Meanwhile, the Kremlin together with German Chancellor Merkel and French President Hollande is urging Kiev to fulfill the requirements of the Minsk II agreement in order to re-establish peace in eastern Ukraine and re-unify the country while granting Donetsk and Luhansk local autonomy.

    Contrary to the anti-Russian propaganda narrative, Moscow wants the people of Donbass to stay in Ukraine and to be able to exercise their democratic rights by voting in Ukraine's national elections for President and parliament, the investigative historian emphasized.

    However, Kiev, backed by its US' patrons, is unwilling to implement the Minsk II provisions. "Gerashchenko's recent comments… are a reflection of the Ukrainian government's refusal to adhere to this [Minsk II] agreement, though Ukraine had signed it," Zuesse emphasized.

    Thus unsurprisingly, American hawks are making attempts to restart the war in eastern Ukraine, since neither US neocons, nor the Ukrainian government want Donbass residents to be "part of Ukraine" again, the investigative historian underscored.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150913/1026946956.html#ixzz3ldogF5Q2
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:39 pm


    Have not seen this explained or put so clearly before.



    The Minsk-2 agreement opens the door for the reversing of the coup
    in Ukraine.. and not only the pro Russian Factions in Donetsk and Lugansk
    to have the right to speak their language..but in all ukraine too... it also opens
    the door for them to have representation in kiev.. that is Pro Russian political parties
    representation.. in short MInsk-2 is a document that pressure Ukraine into becoming
    again a democracy with freedom of expression and freedom of association in politics.
    So any Pro RUssian Candidate allowed to participate in next elections for President of
    Ukraine ,have a big chance of winning , and reversing all the Banderafication of Ukraine.
    to a nation friendly that is majority is friendly or neutral to Russia.

    This of course the implementation of Minsk-2 is highly dependent on the pressure of Europe
    on Americans and Kiev to continue and end the war there. But is not all 100% clear still..
    because france Holland is opposing Russia in Syria..and Russia helping Assad could end
    the support of France in opposing obama policies in ukraine and complicate everything.
    Erk
    Erk

    Posts : 483
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21 - Page 23 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  Erk Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:07 am

    Kiev has two civil wars going on, the one against the breakaway regions of Donbass, and the one against the neo-nazi and other far right nationalist groups. It needs to solve the battle with the far right before it can be taken seriously by Donbass.

    onwiththewar
    onwiththewar

    Posts : 54
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    Join date : 2014-07-18

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21 - Page 23 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

    Post  onwiththewar Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:56 am

    Vann7 wrote:

    Have not seen this explained or put so clearly before.



    The Minsk-2 agreement opens the door for the reversing of the coup
    in Ukraine.. and not only the pro Russian Factions in Donetsk and Lugansk
    to have the right to speak their language..but in all ukraine too... it also opens
    the door for them to have representation in kiev.. that is Pro Russian political parties
    representation.. in short MInsk-2 is a document that pressure Ukraine into becoming
    again a democracy with freedom of expression and freedom of association in politics.
    So any Pro RUssian Candidate allowed to participate in next elections for President of
    Ukraine ,have a big chance of winning , and reversing all the Banderafication of Ukraine.
    to a nation friendly that is majority is friendly or neutral to Russia.

    This of course the implementation of Minsk-2 is highly dependent on the pressure of Europe
    on Americans and Kiev to continue and end the war there. But is not all 100% clear still..
    because france Holland is opposing Russia in Syria..and Russia helping Assad could end
    the support of France in opposing obama policies in ukraine and complicate everything.

    Apparently Merkel SUPPORTS Russia in Syria.


    Germany's Merkel sees need to cooperate with Russia on Syria

    Germany and other western European powers need to work with Russia as well as the United States to solve the crisis in Syria, German Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Saturday.

    Link:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/12/us-mideast-crisis-syria-germany-idUSKCN0RC0LM20150912

    Some comments about kidnapped Russian soldiers. I didn't find any info about this time, but last time what happened was (unconfirmed rumors of course): there were some strange random shootings on the road in Rostov region. Then the military sent these soldiers to help with investigation. Then they end up kidnapped (ambushed by a group of 30 people).  

    The reason Russia did not make a fuss was many people involved in the kidnapping were from within Russia (5th columnists).

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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #21 - Page 23 Empty Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #21

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