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    Russia Tank Force: Present and Future (Numbers)

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:02 pm

    The thing is that the Tiger could not fire while moving so if it had to open fire it would have to stop... the real problem for the Soviets was that the German tankers were very well trained and had good guns and optics and even the shitty crappy tanks could look for muzzle flashes and start firing on targets out to quite decent ranges.

    Anti tank guns are vulnerable to even machine gun fire so they are not ideal for stopping a tank charge like that except if you include anti tank mines and anti tank ditches which means bringing troops forward to clear the way.

    The visibility and communications on German tanks meant they could act as a team, while the noise and lack of communication in a Soviet tank meant they tended to drive around together but could not really coordinate their fire power as effectively and efficiently as the Germans did.

    More Tigers broke down than were destroyed early on on both main fronts of the war... the simple fact is that while they were waiting for better guns to get into service like the Su-100 tank destroyer and its 100mm gun and of course the later JS tanks it was only the tigers and panthers that were real problems, and together there were less than 8 thousand of them to worry about.

    The Tigers and Panthers really didn't get into service in numbers till Kursk so most of their operational lives they were going backwards rather than charging forwards... which made them a bit like the KV-1s during the German invasion.

    Modern missiles and air power could take care of a few super tanks at the tip of any spear attacking a position, and the situation is only going to get worse with 152mm calibre diving top attack weapons from artillery and helicopters.

    The 45mm gun rapidly became useless as an anti armour weapon but was widely used right up to the end of the war as being a useful direct fire (and therefore accurate) system to deliver HE rounds on enemy positions... with a lot more punch than a rifle or machine gun calibre weapon... in many ways an anti material rifle...


    What do you think people?

    I think it will be a bit redundant... the modern optics and communications systems as well as drones and aircraft all sharing information should mean even a T-72 commander will have an excellent view of what is in front of them and with everyone having a selection of rounds including missiles, instead of everyone firing at the same target the commander tank commander might hand off targets to other tanks to engage and therefore achieving a potential rate of fire that is enormous... a unit of four tanks that are coordinated and are destroying enemy positions and vehicle in order of the threat they present to those tanks, but not all firing on the first thing they see is a very efficient way of dealing with enemy forces.

    I would think the best solution is everyone gets the best optics and everyone gets ERA and APS and make every tank a hard nut to crack... and see how much ammo you can use and how many enemy combatants you can eliminate from their gene pool.

    And don't forget to use air power with Mi-28NM and Ka-52M helicopters hovering 5km behind you using MMW radar and new technology thermals scanning for targets for you while also launching drones to fly over the area in front of you finding enemy vehicles behind frontal cover that your artillery can deal with while being marked by those drones with a simple laser beam... higher flying drones will monitor the ground for muzzle flashes and missile launch signatures if they try to take down your lower flying drones... targets engaged but also marked on the shared map showing where the bad guys are...

    Any new conflict is not going to be very much like WWII...
    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:28 pm

    flamming_python wrote:I was reading some material about the Battle of Kursk, and it was mentioned that about 7-8% of the German tank pool consisted of Tiger tanks (with a similar number of Panthers).

    One smart thing the Germans did at the battle, was not to group their Tigers up into their own formations, but spread them around all the existing tank formations. What you ended up with was tank companies and groups consisting of multiple different types of tanks, including the Tigers. The Tigers would spearhead each assault and moving column, and would essentially act as shields for the tanks behind them.

    Everyone did the same and had heavy tanks form the first echelon in the attack. Its only obvious; you have a unit that can reliably absorb most enemy fire and emerge unscathed, but there aren't many of them compared to the lighter units that form the bulk of your combat power so you put them up as screens so the rest of your force don't die so quickly before they can do their damage.

    Of course this isn't as efficient or effective as massing them together. Of the extensive Soviet defenseive belts stretching for 300 km at the furthest, they could only manage to penetrate 20 km into the tactical depths before running out of steam, so it wasn't a good decision in hindsight, but then again they hardly had the forces needed to do it by the book as it were anyway.

    flamming_python wrote:
    This mitigated the effect and tactics of Soviet AT artillery very significantly. The Soviet 76mm AT guns could only reliably penetrate a Tiger frontally from about 300m. Thus upon sighting the presence of Tigers in an advancing formation, they could not open fire at 1-2km, but had to wait until the tanks were nearly on top of them - even if the majority of the German force otherwise consisted of Panzer IIIs and IVs. If the AT grouping were successful in concealment until then, they would usually knock out some tanks, but the position would ultimately be overrun.
    It was a similar story for the T-34s entrenched in defensive positions.
    The Soviet 45mm guns meanwhile, which made up more of the Soviet AT force than anything else - were not very effective against even German medium tanks on a good day, and stood no chance against Panthers and Tigers. Thus they were discouraged from engaging at all, and could only rely on ambush tactics.
    The end result is that barely any Soviet AT guns had survived to the end of the German offensive, and the start of the Soviet attempted counterattack.
    Sounds to me like they used the AT guns to their intended purpose. AT guns are not Napoleonic cannons you can wheel about on a field to blast infantry squares with. They are only useful if the battery crew aren't killed or suppressed. Lacking armor or the means to relocate on their own power they obviously are very vulnerable to enemy fire to include artillery and air strikes with which they have no answer for. Their only real protection is concealment.

    Its true that the Soviet AT weapons were particularly anemic during Kursk, but that's not really the problem. The real problem is the tactical ineptitude of the Soviet commanders during the battle. For some reason they took the Tiger meme way too seriously and focused too much on countering the dreaded German heavy tanks they forgot they are but a small fraction of the overall Panzerwaffe. One of the commanders even instructed his tankers to charge like madmen at the German tanks so they can get close enough to target the weaker flank armor. In theory this should work against the numerically inferior heavy tanks, but they are rolling in with a lot more tanks than just the Tigers and Panthers. What happened is that as soon as the Germans find the Russians rushing at them, they just calmly shot them to pieces and this being WW2 virtually none of the moving T-34's return fires could connect. This plus the mishap at the anti-tank ditch is how you end up with 300 tanks knocked out vs. 60 of the enemy's.

    flamming_python wrote:
    Anyway this got me all thinking

    What would be the feasibility of mixing up tank companies today and creating specializations within them, so that there is a counter to any tactic the enemy wants to adopt?
    AFAIK nothing like this concept is employed in either the Russian tank force or the NATO formations today.
    Specialized units typically form their own detachments and are cross attached as needed. There are arguments for why its better to have them integrated from the get go but as far as ease of training and tactics go its better to just have dedicated units.

    flamming_python wrote:
    Taking for example a T-72B3 company.
    The command tank could be equipped with an APS and the very latest reactive armour. Possibly along with it another tank could be equipped the same way as well. This would not only afford more protection to the most crucial tank in the formation, but would discourage the enemy from engaging at all, if they knew that what they had was unable to penetrate the lead tank's protection.
    Taking the concept further, another T-72B3 of the company, could instead be swapped out for a BMPT-72, and would be used to suppress AT positions, infantry in dug-outs, bunkers or buildings.
    Another tank could be fitted with a bias towards tank-launched missiles as opposed to normal rounds, and fitted with more sophisticated thermal and conventional optics sights than those found in ordinary T-72B3s. This tank's gunner would act as the marksman for the longest-range engagements, while its commander could act as a spotter for the rest of the company

    With a T-90A company, you might have a T-90M as a command tank, and also replacing another tank in the company. And then everything else would be the same as above.

    As you can see the idea mimics the idea of specialization within an infantry squad. Machine-gunner, marksman, RPG team, etc...
    Within an infantry squad, it's rather easier to co-ordinate and specialize in this way than within a tank company; where everything has to be done through radio commands and orders passed down through commanders down to crews.
    However this is where the latest generation of battlefield management systems come in, including the sort of systems that are being introduced in the latest gen tanks.

    What do you think people?
    Feasible? Has been tried already? Or would the logistics complications rule it out as not worth it?
    The command tank typically sits behind 50-100 m behind his subordinates, so in theory he should be plenty safe. It doesn't hurt to give him an extra level of protection given how critical leadership is in the unit's performance.
    In reality, I doubt the enemy would care that one tank in particular is extra resilient to their attacks. It might give them some pause but what's more likely is they'd attack some more and if it doesn't pan out just shift their attacks someplace else or something else, like the softer BMPs accompanying tanks. Compared to WW2 most non-joke militaries have a far more distributed and comprehensive anti-armor arsenal that most can actually afford to use anti-tank weaponry as prophylactic fires against likely enemy positions. That's the kind of environment that doesn't really care if one tank in particular is more protected when everybody else is vulnerable. Really the answer is universal levels of protection at least for the close in combat elements which means heavy tank protection not just for tanks but for IFVs, APCs, etc. Very expensive stuff to say the least.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:00 pm

    Review of the state of the tank forces of the Russian Armed Forces for 2021

    Happy Tankman's Day !!!!



    On the occasion of the holiday, I dashed off another small reviewer on the topic - the tank troops of the Russian army. Last year's review ΗΕRE



    ATTENTION !!!! ALL INFORMATION IS TAKEN FROM PUBLIC SOURCES!!!!

    As a preface.

    The main structural unit of the tank forces is the tank battalion. The battalion consists of three tank companies. Each company consists of three platoons, and each platoon has three tanks. Accordingly, the company has ten tanks (including the company commander's tank), and the battalion thirty-one tanks (including the battalion commander's tank). A number of battalions' platoon strength has been increased to four tanks. Accordingly, such battalions have a company of thirteen tanks (including the tank of the company commander), and a battalion of forty tanks (including the tank of the battalion commander).

    The tank fleet of combat units of the Russian army consists of various modifications of three main types - T-72, T-80 and T-90.

    The most numerous is the T-72B tank. In 1985-1996. the T-72B tank was produced in three versions (T-72B, T-72B1 and T-72B model 1989). Since 1998, the Uralvagonzavod enterprise has been working to significantly improve the combat capabilities of the T-72B tanks. 1998-2005 after modernization, the vehicles received the T-72BA index. In 2011-2015. the upgraded vehicles received the T-72B3 index. From 2016 to the present, the updated vehicles, although they continue to wear the T-72B3 index, are seriously different from the tanks of the previous modernization. Unofficially, tanks are indexed T-72B3 of the 2016 model or T-72B3M.

    Tanks of the T-80 family are represented in the troops by the basic versions of the T-80BV and T-80U (produced in 1983-1998). Since 2005, a number of machines have been modernized and received the T-80BVM and T-80UE-1 indexes.

    Tanks T-90A (2004-2010) and T-90M (produced since 2019) make up the smallest group in the army.

    It should be noted that the tanks of the new production were not supplied to the troops in 2011-2019. and only in 2020 was the first batch of new T-90M machines received.


    14th ARMY CORPS OF THE NORTHERN FLEET
    80th motorized rifle brigade has no tanks
    Separate tank battalion of the 200th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-80BVM tanks.
    The 61st Marine Brigade has no tanks

    WESTERN MILITARY DISTRICT


    6th COMMON ARMY

    A separate tank battalion of the 138th Motorized Rifle Brigade - 40 T-72B3 tanks plus a company of T-80BV tanks in excess of the staff
    A separate tank battalion of the 76th Airborne Assault Division 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    The 25th Motorized Rifle Brigade has no tanks

    11th ARMY CORPS OF THE BALTIC FLEET
    336th Marine Brigade has no tanks
    7th Separate Motorized Rifle Regiment has no tanks

    18th Motorized Rifle Division
    - 11th tank regiment - two tank battalions - 62 T-72B3 tanks. One more tank battalion should be formed according to the state, but I do not have reliable information yet.
    - tank battalion of the 79th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3M tanks
    - tank battalions of the 275th and 280th motorized rifle regiments - I have no reliable information yet.

    1st TANK ARMY
    A separate tank battalion of the 27th motorized rifle brigade - 40 T-90A and T-90M tanks (eight T-90Ms received in 2021) . Above the state, several T-14 tanks were assigned to conduct military tests. By the end of the year, for a complete replacement of T-90A tanks, the brigade will receive the twenty first serial T-14 tanks.

    6th tank brigade - three tank battalions - 93 T-72B3M tanks. Over the staff - one training tank company on T-72B3 tanks

    2nd motorized rifle division
    - 1st tank regiment - three tank battalions - 93 T-72B3M tanks
    - Tank battalion of the 1st motorized rifle regiment - 27 T-90A tanks and 13 tanks T-72B3
    - Tank battalion of the 15th motorized rifle regiment - 21 T-72B3 tanks and 10 T-72B tanks

    4th tank division
    - 12th tank regiment three tank battalions - 93 T-80U and T-80UE-1 tanks.
    - 13th Tank Regiment, three tank battalions - 93 T-80U and T-80UE-1 tanks.
    - Tank battalion of the 423rd motorized rifle regiment - 21 T-80BVM tanks and 20 T-80BV tanks.

    20th COMMON ARMY


    144th Motorized Rifle Division
    - 59th Tank Regiment - one battalion - 31 T-72B tanks. Two more tank battalions are to be formed according to the state, but I have no reliable information yet.
    - Tank battalion of the 488th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72BA tanks
    - Tank battalion of the 254th motorized rifle regiment - I have no reliable information yet.

    3rd Motorized Rifle Division
    - 237th Tank Regiment - two tank battalions - 62 T-72B tanks. One more tank battalion should be formed according to the state, but I do not have reliable information yet.
    - Tank battalion of the 252nd motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    - Tank battalion of the 752nd motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B tanks.

    SOUTH MILITARY DISTRICT

    A separate tank battalion of the 102nd military base - 31 T-72B tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 555th air group in the Syrian Arab Republic - 40 T-90A tanks. A number of T-90A tanks were transferred to the Syrian army.

    8th COMMON ARMY
    A separate tank battalion of the 56th airborne assault brigade - 31 T-72B3 tanks. By December 1, 2021, the brigade will be folded into the 56th Airborne Assault Regiment of the 7th Airborne Assault Division. The tank battalion was transferred to the newly formed 20th motorized rifle division.

    A separate tank battalion of the 20th motorized rifle brigade - 40 T-90A tanks. The brigade was deployed in the 20th motorized rifle division in the summer of 2021 . Two more tank battalions will be formed across the state. Equipment for equipment has already arrived -The brigade exercises in June were attended by T-72B3 tanks with a new numbering, previously in service with the 56th Airborne Assault Brigade.
    150th Motorized Rifle Division 68th Tank Regiment - three tank battalions - 93 T-72B3M tanks
    163rd Tank Regiment - three tank battalions - 93 T-72B tanks.
    Tank battalion of the 103rd motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3M tanks.
    Tank battalion of the 102nd Motorized Rifle Regiment - 31 T-72B3M tanks (received in 2021)


    58th COMMON ARMY

    177th Marine Regiment has no tanks
    A separate tank battalion of the 136th Motorized Rifle Brigade - 40 T-90A tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 4th military base - 31 T-72B3 tanks.

    42nd Motorized Rifle Division
    - Tank battalion of the 70th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    - Tank battalion of the 71st motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    - A separate tank battalion of the division - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    - The 291st Motorized Rifle Regiment has no tanks.

    19th Motorized Rifle Division
    - The Tank Battalion of the 429th Motorized Rifle Regiment - 40 T-90A tanks.
    - The tank battalion of the 503rd motorized rifle regiment is in the stage of formation, I have no reliable information yet.
    - Another tank battalion will be formed across the state.

    49TH COMMON ARMY

    34th Motorized Rifle Brigade has no tanks
    A separate tank battalion of the 205th Motorized Rifle Brigade - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 7th military base - 31 T-72B3 tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 7th Airborne Assault Division - 31 T-72B3 tanks.

    22nd ARMY CORPS OF THE BLACK SEA FLEET
    810th Marine Brigade has no tanks
    Separate tank battalion of 126th coastal defense brigade - 31 T-72B3M tanks (received in 2021)


    CENTRAL MILITARY DISTRICT

    Separate tank battalion of 201st military base - 31 tanks T-72A, T-72AV and T-72B. According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation , by the end of the year it will receive 31 T-72B3M tanks for complete rearmament.
    90th Panzer Division
    - 6th Tank Regiment - 93 T-72A, T-72AV and T-72B tanks
    - 80th Tank Regiment - 93 T-72A, T-72AV and T-72B tanks
    - Tank battalion of the 228th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B3M tanks.
    - a separate company - 10 T-72B3 tanks
    - 239th Tank Regiment - 62 T-72A, T-72AV and T-72B tanks and 31 T-72B3M tanks (received in 2021)

    2nd COMMON ARMY
    15th motorized rifle brigade has no tanks 30th motorized rifle brigade has no tanks
    31st airborne assault brigade has no tanks
    Two separate tank battalions of the 21st motorized rifle brigade - 40 T-72BA tanks and 40 T-72B3 tanks.

    41st COMMON ARMY
    55th motorized rifle brigade has no tanks
    Separate tank battalion of 35th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-72B tanks
    Separate tank battalion of 74th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-72B3 tanks


    EAST MILITARY DISTRICT.


    36th COMMON ARMY

    The 11th airborne assault brigade has no tanks.
    5th tank brigade - three tank battalions - 93 T-72B tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 37th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-72B3 tanks.

    29th COMMON ARMY
    A separate tank battalion of the 36th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-72B3 tanks.

    35th COMMON ARMY

    A separate tank battalion of the 38th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-80BV tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 69th covering brigade - 31 T-80BV tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 64th motorized rifle brigade - 11 T-80BV tanks and 20 T-80BVM tanks (received in 2021) .

    5th COMMON ARMY
    83rd air assault brigade has no tanks
    A separate tank battalion of the 57th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-80BV tanks.
    A separate tank battalion of the 60th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-72B tanks.

    127th motorized rifle division
    - 218th tank regiment - one battalion - 31 T-72B tanks. Two more tank battalions are to be formed according to the state, but I have no reliable information yet.
    - Tank battalion of the 114th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B tanks.
    - Tank battalion of the 394th motorized rifle regiment - 31 T-72B tanks.

    68th ARMY CORPUS

    A separate tank battalion of the 39th motorized rifle brigade - 31 T-80BV tanks.
    18th machine-gun and artillery division - two separate tank companies - 20 T-72B tanks.

    COAST PACIFIC FLEET

    A separate tank company of the 40th Marine Brigade - 10 T-80BV tanks.
    A separate tank company of the 155th Marine Brigade - 10 T-80BV tanks.

    AFTERWORD

    The total number of combat units listed above is 2609 tanks. Twelve more battalions are in the stage of formation. The total number of new and modernized tanks (produced in 2000 and later) in combat units is about 1340 units, or about 51 percent of the total. The renewal of the tank fleet continues. According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation , more than 240 modern and modernized T-72B3M, T-80BVM and T-90M Proryv tanks will be received by the Ground Forces of the Russian Army in 2021.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4393829.html

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:03 pm

    T-90M Proryv = 8
    T-90A = 219
    T-72B3M = 465
    T-72B3 = 598
    T-80BVM = 72
    T-80U/BV = 371
    T-72B/BA = 876


    and also a number of tanks in 4 battalions that are unidentified

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    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:35 pm

    The famous motorized rifle unit of the Western Military District (ZVO), stationed in the Leningrad Region, is celebrating its 80th anniversary.

    The unit is the legal successor of the 666th Rifle Regiment, which was reorganized on September 18, 1941 into the 13th Guards Rifle Regiment. At the end of the Great Patriotic War on May 9, 1945, the regiment was based in East Prussia. From April 4, 1952 to May 1956, the regiment was stationed in Lithuania, then until 1994 in Latvia and received the name Sevastopol Red Banner Regiment named after Latvian Riflemen. Since 1992, the regiment has been reorganized into a brigade.

    Currently, the unit is equipped with the most modern weapons and military equipment, including T-72B3 tanks, BTR-82AM armored personnel carriers, Grad-M MLRS, Msta-S and Acacia howitzers, as well as armored vehicles of the Mustang and Tiger families.

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12384838@egNews

    NOTE: "the Sevastopol Red Banner Regiment named after Latvian Riflemen. Since 1992, the regiment has been reorganized into a brigade" This unit is the 25th Guards Motor Rifle brigade stationed in Luga and as you will notice from today's Ministry of Defense website press release it has T-72B3. This is opposite of the report mentioned previously that stated the 25th Motor Rifle brigade of the 6th Army has no tanks. The author of that blog does great work in a challenging environment, however he is a tank tracker so unless he has actual photo's of tanks for that unit, he doesn't count them.

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:11 pm

    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Nov 02, 2021 12:23 pm

    The Army corps of the Baltic Fleet received a batch of upgraded T-72B3M tanks

    A batch of T-72B3M tanks entered service with a motorized rifle unit of the army corps of the Baltic Fleet near Kaliningrad. This is reported by the information support department of the press service of the Western Military District for the Baltic Fleet.

    "The new equipment will increase the combat capabilities of the compound due to improved maneuverability and armor protection of the crew," the report says.

    The T-72 was developed and manufactured by Uralvagonzavod in Nizhny Tagil. It is in service with several dozen countries. The deeply modernized versions of the T-72B - T-72B3 tank, especially the T-72B3M, meet the requirements of modern warfare.

    The T-72B3 is a deep modification of the T-72B tank and differs from its predecessor by improving most of the main characteristics. The tank can be equipped with sights "Sosna-U" and 1A40-4, automatic target tracking, radio station R-168-25U-2, a software and hardware AVSKU complex, a gun type 2A46M-5-01, a V-92S2F engine (1,130 hp) with systems that ensure its operation. ■

    NOTE: the motor rifle unit near Kaliningrad is the 7th Guards Motor Rifle regiment and another of the units listed in the previous thread (#199) as not having any tanks. This unit is presently being re-equipped with BMP-3's.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/20211121357-WbZRo.html

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    Broski
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    Post  Broski Tue Nov 02, 2021 1:36 pm

    Does Russia really plan to modernize 3000 T-80's? Seems a bit excessive for the arctic regions.
    franco
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    Post  franco Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:08 pm

    Broski wrote:Does Russia really plan to modernize 3000 T-80's? Seems a bit excessive for the arctic regions.

    My understanding is 300-400. The 3,000 figure is just a figment of someone's imagination No

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    Shaun901901
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    Post  Shaun901901 Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:51 pm

    Where are some good sources to go to in order to get information like this (information as in like the number of equipment is in service for a country if that makes any sense
    franco
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    Post  franco Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:49 am

    Shaun901901 wrote:Where are some good sources to go to in order to get information like this (information as in like the number of equipment is in service for a country if that makes any sense
    Depends on whom and what you are looking for. Probably not one source that would be 100% but there is bits and pieces out there if you look hard enough. I have been studying the FSU and then Russia for 40 years, compared to most I would know a lot. But from where I stand there is so much that I don't know and probably never will.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:06 am

    Shaun901901 wrote:Where are some good sources to go to in order to get information like this (information as in like the number of equipment is in service for a country if that makes any sense
    military balance (the current year)  is a good one.

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