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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

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    Post  Mindstorm Mon Sep 06, 2021 4:52 pm

    Isos wrote:Well that's a fair point. Heat need space but that doesn't mean we won't see such drones soon.

    Lancet 3 is also 13kg and is used as a cheap suicide drone.


    Yes, probably someone will attempt tp create a similar loitering ammuinition with anti-tank capability, but this will require (mostly for the combined reconnaissance/strike capability) a substantial increase of the mass and of the costs.

    In mine opinion the future of stand-off anti-tank systems will belong to high speed/heavy warhead/long range missiles with terminal autonomous homing like  product "Гермес" from КБП.

    Similar missiles will have, thanks to very high speed, way better capability to overcome enemy air defenses and active protection systems of armoured vehicles ,will be delivered from distance up to 100 km and will allow optimized reconnaissance UAV or ground based reconnaissance units to merely provide for a brief time window the position of the enemy vehicle remaining at relatively safe distance (because will not be necessary any continous laser illumination of the target); the missiles will arrive quickly in the area and engage autonomously enemy vehicles/infantry concentration allowing the reconnaisance assets to egress early from the area.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:41 pm

    Isos wrote:
    All of them have such relaoder/storage magazin, revolver like :
    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 30 Update10


    Stop that already.
    You clearly see that this drawing lacks the perspective, do you?
    In reality, the drum magazine is quite well protected, first of all being located VERY low.
    If you will check any materials concerning the hit distribution, those area is among the safest of all the tank.
    There is a difference for T-72 and T-64/followers, as they don't share the same ammo magazine. Instead, the 64 and + get one with propeller charges to sit in verticalized position, making them a double target in height.
    Why does that matter?
    Well ... the ballistics.
    It is very hard to hit a target that sits 50cm above the ground level, while 80cm doubles the envelope or so.
    72/90 magazine is top covered with armour plate as well, making it quite protected from splinters.
    There are two issues with the soviet legacy tanks ammo layout.
    First is lots of it inside the hull, but that is not something really different. The only one with a reduced ammo package inside the hull is M1. All the others drive the same boat.
    And the second - much more important - is the ammo package for them.
    Soviets vastly used HE ammunition, that gets triple the HE load if compared to any multi-purpose HEAT rounds NATO used.
    I am not even sure now if any of them instead of Israel ever used a proper HE ammo for tanks?
    Imagine an M1 turret magazine, filled with real HE ammo ... how much it would last a side RPG shot, and who would be the results? Laughing
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    Post  Isos Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:32 pm

    But from the top you will touch the rounds for sure. It's not the same perspective as from sides or front.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:49 am


    That model increased the mass of the UAV (effectively now a guided missile) to 15 kg and the entire launcher system to 54,4 kg and obviously cost (it cost more than the БТР-70 destroyed in the presentation video).

    Hahaha... hilarious video there... love the way it was waved off because a potentially civilian vehicle was detected.

    72/90 magazine is top covered with armour plate as well, making it quite protected from splinters.

    It is also important that local weather conditions might actually make flying tricky... I don't doubt the munition will hit the tank but not so sure it could precisely target a feature like crew hatch.

    Also look at the crew hatches on the new vehicles... they have composite armour on them too and are rather thick structures.

    But from the top you will touch the rounds for sure. It's not the same perspective as from sides or front.

    From the top a turret bustle is a huge target too.

    Which side is the most switched on in terms of dealing with drones?
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:31 am

    Isos wrote:But from the top you will touch the rounds for sure. It's not the same perspective as from sides or front.

    The ones in the carousel - possibly but hardly.
    All top attack ammo is a derivation of HEAT, let it be classical one or EFP.
    Hitting the top of a tank it will be suppressed by ERA panels there, some thin main armor, and finally - the tank's interior to the carousel itself, covered by additional top armor plate. The distance itself makes both the cumulative stream and formed penetrator already suppressed.
    But on the other hand, it will still make a mess with the remaining ammo, for sure. But again - all drive the same boat here with Ch2 and Leo2, while M1 has some ammo in the hull, too - but only a few rounds, limited to non-explosive types only by instruction.
    That is why functionally all the modernization efforts you have witnessed after Chechen experiences, took that lesson first, removing/securing the hull ammo magazine, while retaning the carousel itself.
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:19 am

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:41 pm

    Still don't get the solution they reached for the top-mounted machine gun. Which can at least on the T-90 be operated remotely (not sure about latest T-72 modernizations), so you won't necessarily even see if there is an obstruction to turning it

    It would be better to rig the top cover so that it turns along with the machine gun rather than with the turret.

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:46 pm

    T-72B3M at the Zapad-2021
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:31 am

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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Sun Sep 19, 2021 5:27 pm

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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:11 am

    Still don't get the solution they reached for the top-mounted machine gun. Which can at least on the T-90 be operated remotely (not sure about latest T-72 modernizations), so you won't necessarily even see if there is an obstruction to turning it

    It would be better to rig the top cover so that it turns along with the machine gun rather than with the turret.

    Well this is the first major exercise after the situation in NK, and to be fair this is not something developed over a very long period in a lab with complex optics or electronic components... this is four metal poles attached to the turret top... possibly wielded to something that is removable so they can put it on and take it off if they need to and a couple of mesh frames on top... and I suspect the purpose of putting it on some vehicles in this exercise would be to work out how much of a pain in the ass it could be operationally.

    Does it get in the way of the MG, the optics, the self defence systems... is it a problem when spotting aerial targets or engaging them with the roof mounted HMG... the HMG is often described as a weapon for use against light aircraft and helicopters that stray in close... does this mesh screen effect that.

    How strong does it need to be.... this is metal with reasonably thick struts and mesh structures... would it still work if it was made of plastic... could it be made semi transparent?

    Does it interfere in the view for the APS system looking for diving top attack weapons like Javelin... I would expect it would be cold even when the tank is running hot so it might block the view for Javelin of the turret top and potentially the engine deck which could be a hidden advantage.

    On an exercise there new Mi-28NM and Ka-52 attack helos can get a look at these tanks and see how this effects their visibility.

    Penetration tests can of course be done in the lab, but is this a pain in the ass and therefore likely to be "lost" as soon as possible in real combat because it is more trouble than it is worth can only be determined by giving it to troops with a job to do and to watch them and see how they get that job done.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:15 pm

    I think the role of the top-mounted MG as an anti-aircraft weapon is mostly defunct.. although having said that it can still be quite useful for UAVs assuming a remote-controlled weapons station with optics for the commander as in the T-90.
    With the RCWS the commander can engage a light target as soon as he spots it without having to direct the gunner thereby lowering the reaction time and keeping the heavy firepower pointed in the direction its needed

    With just the pintle-mounted MG, it's mostly just a self-defense weapon for the commander when he's out of the hatch, which is not going to be during heavy combat but rather reconnaissance or movement

    For the T-72s it's probably not that important, but this solution is a no-go for the T-90 series
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:39 am

    This is just the Mk 1 early prototype... I am sure they could develop it further and improve the layout to allow the HMG to be used... how often would it be used nearly vertically anyway?

    This is another option that might be fitted if intel suggests there is a need... they might get it to a point where it has three pole positions that could be attached to mount it... it probably could be done in less than 10 minutes... in Syria it might be worth it just to provide shade for the crew and stop the turret getting so hot in the midday sun.

    In Siberia it might fill up with snow and provide excellent camouflage from above with IR systems.
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:44 am

    T-72B mod.1989, restored after testing in the United States.
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    Post  Mir Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:26 am

    Were they recently tested in the US or is this from the 90's tests?
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Wed Sep 22, 2021 11:59 am

    Mir wrote:Were they recently tested in the US or is this from the 90's tests?
    From the 90's tests

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    Post  franco Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:49 am

    NOTES:
    - here is the latest from the Russian blogger altyn73 on the T-72B3 tanks development and totals
    - he has to be one of the most active Russian bloggers in regards to tanks and AFV. He is the only person that I have seen who tries to track the individual tanks by their service numbers much like the aircraft trackers such as our own AMCXXL and his fellow trackers.
    - last article of altyn73, which George had posted (post # 199, Russia Tank Force Present and Future) had a total of around 200 less T-72B3's then this article.
    - his totals listed in this article for the T-72B3 are about 300 less then other Russian and Western sources
    - Shoigu himself had reported during his state of affairs to the Duma in 2019 that over 1000 T-72B3 had been acquired at that point and there has been 400-500 since.
    - as a side note there were 150-300 T-72's modified prior to 2011 and are referred to as T-72BA/BM/B1's
    - my issue with this blogger is that he changes his views a lot. However to be fair that is one of my own sayings, "be prepared tomorrow to believe something different then today." The Russian military is not big on sharing info.
    - also I have this blogger bookmarked and read all his articles plus the interaction between himself and others

    Ten years of the T-72B3 tank

       October 25, 2011 on the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation the following message appeared : “In accordance with the rearmament plan, the troops of the Southern Military District (YuVO) continue to receive modern models of weapons and military equipment. Today, a train with modernized T-72B tanks, equipped with modern powerful missile and cannon armament, the latest communications and effective fire control systems, arrived at the Khankala railway station for a motorized rifle unit stationed in the Chechen Republic. Representatives of OAO NPK Uralvagonzavod, who arrived with the equipment, will help the personnel of the formation to master all the innovations and features of the operation of the upgraded tanks. As a result of the intensive supply of weapons and military equipment, the fleet of combat vehicles of motorized rifle formations deployed in the territory of the Chechen Republic until the end of November this year. the city will be completely renovated. "

       The exact date of the release of the first production model of the T-72B3 tank is unknown to me, but it can be assumed that this event took place at the Uralvagonzavod enterprise in September 2011. came. With what I want to congratulate all my readers!

    Below, under the cut, is my purely biased note on the history of the T-72B3 tank over the past ten years.

       Specialists of the Ural Design Bureau of Transport Engineering in 2011 developed a project for the modernization of the T-72B tank in several versions. The variant selected by the military department was put into production at the Nizhny Tagil enterprise Uralvagonzavod. In 2014 and 2016, new options for upgrading T-72B tanks were developed and put into production. Nowadays, the practice has developed to designate modernized vehicles of various options as "T-72B3 tank (model of 2011)", "T-72B3 tank (model of 2014)" and "T-72B3 tank (model of 2016)", but officially all variants are called strictly T-72B3.

       On October 25, 2011, the first batch of modernized tanks (at least ten vehicles) arrived at the location of the tank battalion of the 17th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Shali, Chechen Republic).

       November 1, 2011 On the page of the LiveJournal of the famous Nizhny Tagil sportswoman Natalia Ragozina , photographs of her visit to the Uralvagonzavod were published, where, among other things, new T-72B3 tanks were captured. It is believed that these are the very first pictures of the tank made public on the web. On February 3, 2012, the Zvezda TV channel first showed the new tanks of the 17th Motorized Rifle Brigade.

       It should be noted that the correct name of the T-72B3 tank appeared in open sources only in December 2013. Before that, there were various variants of the name - "modernized T-72B tank", "T-72BM tank" and even "T-72B1". Unfortunately, on television, the number “three” is still confused with the letter “ze” and the name “tank te seventy-two be ze” is constantly pronounced on the air, even on the departmental channel “Zvezda”.

       In May 2012, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and JSC "Scientific and Production Corporation" Uralvagonzavod "entered into an agreement on the supply of a modernized tank to the troops. The cost of upgrading one tank was just over 52 million rubles. Deliveries under the agreement began in December 2012.

       Since 2013, work on the modernization of T-72B tanks to the level of T-72B3 began to be carried out at the Omsktransmash enterprise.
       The troops received tanks in battalion sets - three companies, ten tanks each. A total of 30 tanks included.

       In 2011-2015. the troops received 13 sets for rearmament. Unloading of thirty T-72B3 tanks for the 38th motorized rifle brigade (Yekaterinoslavka, Amur region) December 2013 source Since 2015, the number of tanks in the kit has changed - the number of companies has increased to four. A total of 40 tanks included. In 2015-2016. the troops received 7 sets for rearmament. Tank T-72B3 w / n 548 of the fourth tank company of the tank battalion of the 74th motorized rifle brigade during the exercise, 2019 © Alexey Kitaev

       In 2016, it was announced the formation of six tank companies in the units of the Airborne Forces. Subsequently, all the companies were reduced to tank battalions, which confirms the fact that all 60 tanks were received.

       A certain number of tanks (at least ten) were delivered to the training centers of the RF Ministry of Defense.

       In April 2017, images of T-72B3 tanks in the Syrian Arab Republic as part of pro-government military formations were released. In my estimation, at least ten new production tanks were delivered.

       Thus, for the period 2011-2016. at least 750 T-72B3 tanks of the 2011 model were shipped to the troops and for export.
       Since 2017, in connection with rearmament to other equipment, T-72B3 tanks were withdrawn from the eight battalions. One tank battalion was disbanded. In total, about 280 tanks were dropped. Of these, according to my estimates, about 150 vehicles entered service with newly formed and super-sized replenishment of existing units. So, until September 2021, the battalions of the 21st and 205th motorized rifle brigades received in excess of the state for the fifth tank company, the tank battalion of the 138th motorized rifle brigade received the fourth supernumerary company. Tank T-72B3 w / n 559 of the supernumerary fifth tank company of the tank battalion of the 205th motorized rifle brigade during the exercise, 2020

       T-72B3 tanks are armed with the newly formed two tank battalions of the 11th tank regiment of the 18th motorized rifle division, separate tank battalions of the 20th and 42nd motorized rifle divisions. T-72B3 tank from the second tank battalion of the 11th tank regiment of the 18th motorized rifle division (Kaliningrad region) with the insignia of the second tank battalion of the former 20th motorized rifle brigade during combat training, July 2021 © Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation At least 20 vehicles arrived for service with training centers of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. In 2014, a new version of modernization of T-72B3 tanks was developed to participate in the Tank Biathlon competition.

       According to some reports, a total of 80 tanks are planned to be modernized. Now, in all four military districts, there are at least 40 units of T-72B3 tanks of the 2014 model. Shipment of a new T-72B3 tank of the 2014 model for participation in the Tank Biathlon competition, June 2021, source Option for upgrading the T-72B3 tank with improved combat characteristics was developed and put into production in 2016. The cost of upgrading the tank under the agreement was 79 million rubles per unit. The shipment of tanks to military units began in March 2017. For brevity, this modification is often called the T-72B3M, but this is strictly unofficial.

       Troops receive tanks in battalion sets - three companies, ten tanks each. A total of 30 tanks included. From 2017 to the present day, the troops received 15 sets for rearmament. T ank T-72B3M from the 1st Tank Regiment of the 2nd Motorized Rifle Division at the Zapad-2017 exercises, September 2017, photo © Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation At least 20 vehicles entered service with training centers of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. In 2017-2020 at least 19 units of T-72B3M tanks delivered to Belarus The first batch of modernized T-72B3M tanks, handed over to the armed forces of Belarus. 02.06.2017 © voentv.mil.by Thus, for the period 2017-2021. at least 480 T-72B3M tanks were shipped to the troops and for export.

       In total, over the past decade, our troops received at least 1240 units of T-72B3 tanks of all variants.

       The history of the combat use of T-72B3 tanks is rather short. In the spring of 2014, several battalion-tactical groups armed with T-72B3 tanks were deployed to the areas bordering Ukraine. According to the resource lostarmour.info , during clashes with units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, four were completely destroyed and one serviceable T-72B3 tank was captured. The commander of a tank company of a tank battalion of the 200th motorized rifle brigade, Senior Lieutenant Vitaly Vyacheslavovich Romanov, was awarded the title of Hero of the Russian Federation for his courage and heroism in performing a special mission on June 1, 2015

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4402499.html

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    Post  George1 Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:09 pm

    so according to the article above we have:
    750 T-72B3s
    480 T-72B3Ms
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    Post  franco Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:27 pm

    George1 wrote:so according to the article above we have:
    750 T-72B3s
    480 T-72B3Ms

    And according to the IISS 2021 World Military Balance there are:
    - 1150 T-72B3
    - 570 T-72B3M

    Personally I feel that the IISS is too high and altyn73 is too low...so Smile

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    Post  Isos Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:05 pm

    How many tanks are in reserve but servicable ? I'm not thinking about the rusty ones tht would need a deep work to start their engines again.

    They used to say they had 10-15000 tanks but soon all those soviet reliks will be just metal boxes and the real numbers will be 3000 or so.
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    Post  Hole Sun Sep 26, 2021 5:39 pm

    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 30 Screen16
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    T-72B3 with Arena

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    Post  limb Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:39 pm

    Does the T-72B3 have a reverse speed higher than 4km/h?

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    Post  Broski Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:19 pm

    limb wrote:Does the T-72B3 have a reverse speed higher than 4km/h?

    Probably not, it's not a french tank.

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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 30 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  limb Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:45 am

    Broski wrote:
    limb wrote:Does the T-72B3 have a reverse speed higher than 4km/h?

    Probably not, it's not a french tank.

    I mean every single other MBT tank in service other than the T-72 and T-64 has a better reverse speed than it(including the T-80 and T-14) because shooting and scooting matters. 4km/h is pathetic. It's not 1965 anymore where Soviet tanks are expected to suicidally charge and never reverse.

    The T-55 and T-62 have better reverse speed. Let that sink in.
    GarryB
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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 30 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:25 am

    I would say they probably do... reverse speed is simply a choice and a transmission design... in theory you could give the tank as many reverse gears as it has forward gears, but it also comes down to tactics... if you are moving across a flat open plain then reverse speed means nothing, but then using structures and buildings for cover or berms, then it comes down to tactics where you can position your tank so that you drive forward to cover... so reverse to make the enemy vehicles visible and fire and then drive forward into cover.

    Given the choice of ERA and APS and current armour levels of a better reverse speed I think I know which I would choose.

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    T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants - Page 30 Empty Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

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