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    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion

    Russian_Patriot_
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:07 pm

    The condition of the An-178-100R prototype. The Ukrainians promise that it will begin test flights before the end of the year
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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:10 pm

    I hope they don't test it above my head... pale

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    Post  kvs Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:55 pm

    These foaming at the mouth clowns have done basically nothing after 2014. That prototype is a relic.

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:15 am

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    Post  kvs Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:50 pm



    Ukria has totally failed in delivering a single An-178 to Peru and Peru is imposing fines on Ukraine for breach of contract.

    The An-178 is a defective design that required modifications that Ukria could not handle.   So the fact that Antonov was
    move to Ukria from Russia did not actually give Ukria the capability to manufacture aircraft as we have seen over the last
    30 years.

    The wing span and area was changed to compensate for inadequate performance which caused a fail in the load distribution
    requiring 1.32 tons of weight to be placed behind the crew cabin. So the aircraft cannot be tweaked and needs to be
    redesigned and built basically from scratch.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:55 pm

    Was a monkey in charge of procurment contracts in Peru ? Who right in his mind orders planes from Ukraine ?

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Dec 24, 2021 5:19 pm

    Isos wrote:Was a monkey in charge of procurment contracts in Peru ? Who right in his mind orders planes from Ukraine ?

    There's always a sucker

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:41 pm

    https://focus.ua/voennye-novosti/501634-antonov-predstavit-samolet-an-178-100r-s-rossiyskim-dvigatelem-foto
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    Post  lancelot Fri Dec 24, 2021 6:48 pm

    They would be better off ordering the Brazilian C-390 I think.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:24 pm


    In February 2012 Peru expressed interest in the C-390.
    At $50M, perhaps Peru couldn't afford it.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 25, 2021 8:14 am

    There's always a sucker

    Plenty of suckers out there thinking they can get something cheaper by shopping around... Ukraine was a new US ally and it isn't the first plane they have made... actually it this plane along with the An-70 are the first few planes they haven't made...

    Most of the planes they were making they were making with Russia so while they remained partners with Russia there was a good chance these planes would be developed and enter into service...

    But then the Ukraine listened to the promises of the west and their greed cost them everything.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:38 am

    Perhaps the An-70 could get a new lease on life if/after the Antonov plant starts working again.
    "Demilitarization of Ukraine" doesn't mean that heavy cargo planes can't be produced there for Russia.
    https://www.flyingmag.com/new-video-claims-to-confirm-an-225-destruction/

    IMO, what's left of it could be used to finish the 2nd plane that was sitting in the hangar for years.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:50 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Perhaps the An-70 could get a new lease on life if/after the Antonov plant starts working again.
    "Demilitarization of Ukraine" doesn't mean that heavy cargo planes can't be produced there for Russia.
    https://www.flyingmag.com/new-video-claims-to-confirm-an-225-destruction/

    IMO, what's left of it could be used to finish the 2nd plane that was sitting in the hangar for years.

    Hi Tsavo, actually the An-70 is the only worthy Antonov airplane whose development continued after the dissolution of Soviet Union (An-124 was completed before that).  I like the airplane and I believe as well it would have potential and it was a victim of political plays from the Ukrainian leaders (even before 2013).

    I do not know if the plants in Kiev and Kharkov are recoverable, or which will be the status of Kiev and Kharkov after the war (e.g. inside a "neutral" Ukraine?, or maybe the two of them in separate but friendly states (e.g. Malorossia and Novorossia)
    The decision on it can be done only after we know the outcome of it.

    I would also consider initially maybe only producing some aircraft parts in those two plants and only later think about full assembly of aircraft. And even in the case of restarting production of the An-70 there I would have at least a second assembly of it in Russia (as it was for the An-124) and a redundant supply chain (e.g the parts produced in Kiev and Kharkov should also be produced somewhere else in Russia (e.g in Samara).

    Furthermore as I have already posted in the russian transport aircraft fleet (VTA) thread, there should not be any cooperation whatsoever with a totally independent Antonov.


    Rodion_Romanovic wrote: (...) An-70 (including digitalizing the design, if this has not been done yet and possibly modernising its internal systems). Hopefully the Ukrainians did not destroy in the meanwhile all the technical paperwork for the An-70 (I do not know if Russia has copy of those , but at least for the An-124 Russia has everything it needs to produce the aircraft (except the engines)).

    Antonov must not be a rival, it must be a Russian company registered in Russia and part of UAC


    Anyway Antonov does not need to stay in Kiev.
    The main factory in Kiev can be separated from Antonov and renamed back Aviant or even Kiev aviation plant. The main technical office (and the official company registration) can be moved back in Russia, e.g. in Moscow or in Ulyanovsk.

    Antonov airlines (or what remains of it) could be incorporated in Volga Dnepr (anyway Dnepr was always part of its name).

    In Kiev, in the office of Antonov design bureau they can organized a separate branch of the russian UAC and give some part of some projects (as European and American aeronautical and engine companies have technical branches in India or in Singapore...actually even Boeing has a technical branch in Moscow and those guys were the people responsible for the last cargo modification of the Boeing 747 (the 747-8f, with frontal doors).

    As specified before, even with a design branch in kiev, the design authority and IP right of all projects must be kept (or moved for existing projects like An-70 and An-124) in Moscow

    (...)

    On the other topic (engines) I believe the status of tooling and machinery in motor sich is not that bad, even if outdated (unless the Ukrainians destroyed them in the last couple of years), so they could restart production at least of the existing engine projects (D18t, d436, elicopter engines) and later move to produce parts or even new PD engines for UEC (as I said before, now all the western engines or components in new productions of SSJ100 and MC21 must be replaced)
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:11 am

    If the orcs shelled the AN-225 then they likely destroyed documents and equipment too... Antonov might become a museum of lost history, but that is about all.

    The An-70 is a dead project too, I can't see them spending money in a country that at best will be neutral.

    If it was in the other republics or Crimea, then sure, but... it all comes down to what they end up doing.
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    Post  Isos Fri Mar 18, 2022 10:45 am

    GarryB wrote:If the orcs shelled the AN-225 then they likely destroyed documents and equipment too... Antonov might become a museum of lost history, but that is about all.

    The An-70 is a dead project too, I can't see them spending money in a country that at best will be neutral.

    If it was in the other republics or Crimea, then sure, but... it all comes down to what they end up doing.

    Who cares about this plane ? It was build for soviet space programs that doesn't exist anymore.

    What would be good is an-124 because it is already used by the russian air force. If they take some that will increase their power.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:08 pm

    03/05/2021


    A very interesting article from last year (May 2021) with an interview with an old Antonov engineer.
     I will report only some extract (especially about the An-74 and the  other projects) since it is quite long, but I suggest also to read the whole article as there are very interesting consideration on the russian aircraft industry of the post soviet period.


    We discussed about this topic also in the Russian VTA thread and on the thread of Il-112, but yes currently the only Antonov aircrafts  that are worth of consideration for restart of production (by Russia) could be the An-72/74 and the An-124




    https://vpk-name.translate.goog/news/489809_aviacionnaya_promyshlennost_ukrainy_i_ee_perspektivy.html?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de






    https://vpk.name/news/489809_aviacionnaya_promyshlennost_ukrainy_i_ee_perspektivy.html



    Anatoly Vovnyanko: (...) And when new planes are created, they are always created like cars. Each new aircraft is created a little larger, more economical, and so on, than the previous one. Because a little more, these are other possibilities: loads, dimensions, pallets, etc. Here they stupidly took everything that was at hand. The guys who designed it told me: "We proposed to make the fuselage diameter larger by 200 mm", but since the general was D. Kiva, then everything they could, as I wrote there in the article, "I blinded him from the fact that It was". Here they “blinded” from what was with the An-148, part of the An-70 and more from others, well, at minimal cost, so that “their” money that they received offshore from cargo transportation by the airline was not spent. We started An-178 in 2010 and built the first prototype in 2015. They tried to shove him into VolgaDnepr and the Ukrainian military. But our military said that “We don’t have money,” and Volga-Dnepr, when they looked at the characteristics of the An-178, said that we don’t need such an aircraft.


    Yuri Romanenko : Well, all the more, Volga-Dnepr is in Russia. Already then there was a war in the Donbass ...


    Anatoly Vovnyanko : No, no, no, it was they who signed the documents before the war, when the plane was still under construction.


    Yuri Romanenko : Ah, that's it, I understand.


    Anatoly Vovnyanko : Well, Volga-Dnepr, when they looked at the characteristics on the papers, what kind of aircraft it was, they wrote extremely negative reviews there. There are military transport aircraft, as it were, by class. Conventionally, the first class of aircraft, which is widespread today, is various modifications of the An-74 aircraft: C-295 Airbus and C-27J from Italy. This is about 9.5-11 tons carrying capacity, its dimensions and so on. The second class of aircraft was the An-12, it has a carrying capacity of 16 tons, a maximum of 20 tons. And today, the C-130 Hercules aircraft dominates the market, more than 2,200 of them were produced. An-12, by the way, was also produced more than 1200.


    Therefore, in my proposals, I told what kind of aircraft to make. And the Chinese made the Y-9 aircraft for 21 tons on the basis of our An-12, the same carrying capacity of 21 tons in the C-130J (this is a deeply modernized C-130) and they have already built 300 pieces and they plan to build the same number. And finally, Embraer made the KC-390 aircraft for 26 tons. Our An-178 aircraft turned out to have a carrying capacity of 15 tons (there is a corresponding document published), then D. Kiva corrected it by 16 tons. Today, the management of Antonov says that it is 18 tons, but this is true, in limited transportation. That is, the aircraft turned out compared to the An-12 with a smaller cargo compartment, worse takeoff and landing characteristics, well, higher speed, after all, time has changed (speed for this class of aircraft is not such an important characteristic), and for military transport aircraft, the dimensions and volume of the cargo compartment, concrete runways of the 2nd class and unpaved runways are important. It turns out that after 58 years, Antonov State Enterprise created the An-178 aircraft, which is inferior to its grandfather, the An-12 aircraft.


    Yuri Romanenko : And the presence of a ramp.


    Anatoly Vovnyanko: Well, there is a ramp here. Therefore, I know that today many people are turning, well, to me, there from the Emirates: "Find us the An-12." That is, an aircraft like the An-12 would be needed, but at a new technical level, but the An-178 does not replace the An-12. And I also wrote about this earlier and spoke about the fact that earlier ramp aircraft were used very little in civil aviation, why? Because ramp planes were, as a rule, military. And military planes are expensive planes. And only when the Soviet Union collapsed, and the price of these aircraft dropped by orders of magnitude, "Ruslan" could be bought for $ 5 million, the same An-12 - from 700 thousand to 1.5 million dollars. An-124 for Libya Ukraine was sold for 20 million and the last, expensive one, which was sold for the Emirates, is 38 million dollars. Whereas such a plane is abroad, lower carrying capacity (77 tons versus 120 tons in An124), S-17, it costs 220 million dollars. The Americans also tried to make the C-17 "Boeing" for civilians, they reduced the price to 190 million and so on, but it, because of the enormous costs, is not suitable. And so this plane, the An-178, well, no matter where the Antonovs poked, they could not find orders.


    I can't say he's bad. He just turned out neither here nor there. It turned out to be better in terms of carrying capacity than the An-74, C-295, although it is inferior to them in terms of price and runway length. I cited in my article "Ukrainian Aircraft Industry - Imitation Continues" where I compare this aircraft with the An-74 aircraft. It turns out that with the same runways there, 1200-1500 meters, the An-178 carries the same cargo of 10 tons as the An-74. But the An-74 is certified, mastered, and so on, but here D. Kiva had to show for PR and retention in office that he had built a new aircraft. (By the way, it was the same with the An-158 aircraft. They simply lengthened the An-148 fuselage and did something else on small things and instead of calling, say, An-148-200, as Boeing does with all its aircraft, gave it the new name An-158).


    Yuri Romanenko : And when was the An-74 made? 45 years ago, if not more.


    Anatoly Vovnyanko : In 1976, the An-72 took to the skies, I was still involved in its creation, and a few years later they created the An-74, because it was necessary to fly there almost to the North Pole, so they lengthened the wing, changed the APU, etc. .


    Yuri Romanenko : By the way, the other day the Ministry of Strategy and Industry announced in the person of Urusky that they were going to revive the production of An-74 at KSAMC, well, this is really funny.


    Anatoly Vovnyanko : For almost 6 years, the plant has not been building aircraft, the specialists have fled, the plant has more than 3 billion debts and, it seems, 260 million hryvnias in wage arrears. I wrote that only a few almost finished An-74 aircraft could be completed, but there is a big problem. That's when they started making this idiotic An-132, which no one needed, I then wrote, guys, yes, you put a glass cockpit on the An-74, yes you upgrade it and so on, and there will be a wonderful aircraft.


    After all, this aircraft was bought by all the countries of the Middle East, Canada once wanted to take it, but Kazakhstan bought from us all the time. But the leadership of Antonov thought only about their loved ones and about PR. This is the plane of Kharkov, and here in Kyiv there were the fuselage and wings of the An-32 built back in the 1990s. Yes, it was necessary to “earn” that’s why they blinded the An-132D demonstrator. They just threw away a lot of money and time, and no one bears any responsibility. To finish building the An-74, you need to transfer it to imported components. Therefore, I am not sure that this will be done, because. we need significant finances and the one who will buy this aircraft. After all, Kazakhstan has already bought the C-295 and is unlikely to buy anything in Ukraine after we did not supply them with the An-74 in 2015. I would like to return to another An-178. After all, the current leadership does not understand that the wing,


    It is necessary to redesign the wing if they want to abandon Russian materials. Of course, for the An178 aircraft, they can remove the wing from the unfinished An-158 aircraft. Yes, and 3 An178 aircraft for the Ukrainian Defense Ministry can be made. I won't deny it. I saw footage on TV of how they assemble the fuselage compartments using temporary slipways. there is no serial equipment yet, and it is not known whether it will be. Because of this tragedy near Kharkov, this agony of the aviation industry, it would be possible to put an end to it today, but for 2-3 years due to the manufacture of these three An-178 aircraft, this agony will continue, well, after that hardly anyone will need it. God forbid that I be wrong, but everything that I wrote about for 15 years, unfortunately, came true. 
    (...)
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:02 am

    Who cares about this plane ? It was build for soviet space programs that doesn't exist anymore.

    The purpose of the An-225 was not only to carry around the Buran, there were a variety of outsized loads it would have been useful to carry that they ended up using modified Myasishchev M-4 bomber, with the designation VM-T, it was used to carry large fuel tanks and the Buran shuttle before the An-225 was made available.

    Such aircraft can be very useful and save a lot of time even if they are not cheap.

    Sometimes moving something complete without breaking it up into smaller pieces is the fastest and cheapest way to move things.

    The Russians have plans for future space planes and larger assemblies of rockets and space craft that are build no where near any space launch facility so having an aircraft that can carry these things from where they are made to where they are launched is actually rather useful... as you can imagine taking the Buran apart to pieces that will fit on a train means stripping it back to a very basic level which would need a lot of assembly when it reaches its destination... and all those components have to arrive on time and in order and with no parts missing... in comparison putting it on the back of a plane and flying it to the airfield on the space port grounds is much easier and quicker and safer and cheaper.

    Of course having said that my reason for talking about the An-225 was not about how valuable the aircraft might be, but the attitude of the Ukrainians towards their own history and heritage and their mentality when it comes to Russia and Russians... many whom seem to hold all the power would rather see Antonov destroyed than to see her in Russian hands, and that neither surprises me (they are nazis after all) nor upsets me... they can't erase what Antonov did... their actions in the last thirty years or so have been a bit of a stain on their good work, but that is what happens to countries when they get westernised...

    What would be good is an-124 because it is already used by the russian air force. If they take some that will increase their power.

    When the Russian offensive ever begins I suspect very much a scorched earth policy from the retreating foreign mercenaries that will make up the majority of Kievs functional forces by then.

    I rather doubt very much will survive intact... and I don't think the Russian military will be keen to see Orc aircraft added to their fleet when their stated goal across the board is the opposite... to replace Soviet Era equipment and weapons and replace them with new Russian replacements.

    A very interesting article from last year (May 2021) with an interview with an old Antonov engineer.
    I will report only some extract (especially about the An-74 and the other projects) since it is quite long, but I suggest also to read the whole article as there are very interesting consideration on the russian aircraft industry of the post soviet period.

    So if he is to be believed then Russia is in trouble because their aircraft industry has been destroyed just like Ukraines industry has been destroyed and Russia can't design new planes any more... except, again, if he is right, the best way forward would not to be to buy foreign planes or modify existing types but to use new tools like the super computers and new materials to design and build new aircraft prototypes and get some experience making new aircraft again.

    I wrote that only a few almost finished An-74 aircraft could be completed, but there is a big problem. That's when they started making this idiotic An-132, which no one needed, I then wrote, guys, yes, you put a glass cockpit on the An-74, yes you upgrade it and so on, and there will be a wonderful aircraft.

    This is the Ukrainian aviation industry thread and the only way the An-72/74 could go back into production would be if they started to cooperate with Russia, which they are dead set against doing under any circumstances.

    That Ukrainian guy said himself imported parts would be critical to putting that aircraft back into serial production from their perspective and western imported components would make it too expensive and Russian parts would only become available at the end of this conflict which might go on for years and any capacity at Ukraines end to make aircraft is very unlikely to survive the conflict... I doubt they are going to keep young men working developing transport planes right now... their warm bodies are rather more valuable to Kiev lined up at the front absorbing fragments and bullets so their own bodies don't need to do that.

    With that in mind the Ukrainian aircraft industry for the most part has probably already fled the country or is about to be destroyed if it hasn't already been destroyed so holding out hope that they might be useful is foolish.

    As mentioned in the article that the Il-214 is their programme to replace the An-12 and an Il-276 might be also in the running as well as the Tu-330 now the Tu-214 and Tu-204 are back in production... it seems their focus is replacing the An-24/25/26 which likely are more urgently required as they are probably more widely and heavily used.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Nov 07, 2022 2:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I wrote that only a few almost finished An-74 aircraft could be completed, but there is a big problem. That's when they started making this idiotic An-132, which no one needed, I then wrote, guys, yes, you put a glass cockpit on the An-74, yes you upgrade it and so on, and there will be a wonderful aircraft.

    This is the Ukrainian aviation industry thread and the only way the An-72/74 could go back into production would be if they started to cooperate with Russia, which they are dead set against doing under any circumstances.

    That Ukrainian guy said himself imported parts would be critical to putting that aircraft back into serial production from their perspective and western imported components would make it too expensive and Russian parts would only become available at the end of this conflict which might go on for years and any capacity at Ukraines end to make aircraft is very unlikely to survive the conflict... I doubt they are going to keep young men working developing transport planes right now... their warm bodies are rather more valuable to Kiev lined up at the front absorbing fragments and bullets so their own bodies don't need to do that.

    With that in mind the Ukrainian aircraft industry for the most part has probably already fled the country or is about to be destroyed if it hasn't already been destroyed so holding out hope that they might be useful is foolish.

    As mentioned in the article that the Il-214 is their programme to replace the An-12 and an Il-276 might be also in the running as well as the Tu-330 now the Tu-214 and Tu-204 are back in production... it seems their focus is replacing the An-24/25/26 which likely are more urgently required as they are probably more widely and heavily used.

    There will not be an Ukrainian aviation industry anymore after the war, as the existing infrastructure will be either destroyed (e.g like the Lvov aircraft repair plant) or in Russian / Malorussian control.

    I posted here because I thought it was the more appropriate thread.

    Anyway even the Kharkov aviation plant is now without real employees...officially last year they were about a 1000 people but most of them did not come anymore to the factory,.but in reality the only thing remaining was a couple of hundred employees near retirement age that "worked" a few hours per week.

    All of the other employees already left because there was no proper work and wages that were outrageously low (and often not even paid).

    The next section is partially off topic, if needed please move it to a more appropriate thread.

    As far as Russian aviation industry situation, of course it is not the same everywhere, but he is completely right about the situation until about 2008, when the MC-21 program started, as  sukhoi even dabbed in the regional jet market as the other russian firms where almost not existing anymore. Irkut (Yakovlev) received a lot of investment and started properly paying its engineers and technicians, and while the project had a few delays, we can say that it has a bright future ahead. But again, Irkutsk aviation plant and Komsomolsk on Amur aviation plants were able to be saved and to keep skilled workforce thanks to the military orders (including exports) for the Su-27 and Su-30 aircrafts and later, after the start of the new civilian programs they even received modern western style assembly lines.

    The other firms however have been neglected and especially Ilyushin until recently was in a condition not much dissimilar than what Antonov has been after 2014.

    Ilyushin lost the capability of designing and developing new projects and they never managed to maintain or improve the workforce (an article of a few years ago mentioned that only people close to retirement age and young trainees (that would leave soon after learning the basis) remained, as other jobs (e.g. working in the airline maintenance field or in the much better paying Irkut) were more attractive.

    What partially saved Ilyushin has been the modernisation and import of production of the il-76 and partially also of the il-114 regional turboprop.

    However the il-112v has demonstrated that is a stillborn project which would basically require a huge effort to turn it into an acceptable product.

    Tupolev as well now is in a better situation than what it was in the mid-2000, and I believe that Anatoly Vovnyanko has correct information, but outdated. Still Tupulev and its associated factories probably have been saved thanks to the few military orders for the Tu-214 and for the modernisation and production restart of the Strategic bombers. I do not know how successful is the project for the Pak-Da, but at least serious investment in that allowed not to completely loose capabilities.

    I really look forward to a restart of the Tu-330 program, currently the most promising aircraft in this niche among the Russian or Antonov projects.

    What I find very important for Russia is also the contribution of relatively new players as the Ural civil aviation plant in Ekaterinburg, which has also a dedicated design bureau and engine department, and basically developed the real successor to the An-24 using the let L-610 prototype as baseline. I see the TVRS-44 Ladoga as the new An-24.

    The An-26 was basically a development/derivative of the An-24 with a rear cargo ramp. Same thing can be done for the TVRS-44. 
    Of course such development requires effort, but not more than fixing the Il-112V.

    Ilyushin recently had too many projects in the hand and to little people. 

    As far as the An-72 /74, it is an aircraft that I like and it fits some roles quite important for Russia. Maybe the production of a modernised version can be transferred to Aviakor in Samara, if the equipment in Kharkov will not have been completely destroyed in the meanwhile.
    (Basically doing something similar to what has done for the Il-114 from Tashkent)

    Kharkov Aviation plant also deserves a new life, but probably in the initial phase of its rebirth of it (after Kharkov will be part of the Russian federation) it would be better to concentrate on the production of components for the Russians aircraft industry, especially for airplanes assembled in Samara.
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:49 pm

    Delusional Shocked

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    The most fantastic news of the day: Ukraine has begun building a new Mriya. The new An-225 aircraft is already 30% ready, said the general director of the Antonov enterprise Evgeny Gavrilov.

    Work to restore the largest cargo aircraft in the world destroyed during the attack on Gostomel is being carried out in a “secret place”

    Obviously, we are talking about the second unfinished An-225, which was offered to Russia and China. The plane is located in Kyiv at Antonov and its mythical completion is carried out there

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 17 Fg-t6gCX0AElMrI?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  Isos Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:20 am

    Tell them not to fly it above me. Thanks.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 08, 2022 9:15 am

    As far as Russian aviation industry situation, of course it is not the same everywhere, but he is completely right about the situation until about 2008, when the MC-21 program started, as sukhoi even dabbed in the regional jet market as the other russian firms where almost not existing anymore

    Soviet design bureaus always tried to make aircraft outside their normal competencies... Yak made helicopters and MiG even designed light transport planes and even Myasishchev designed lead in fighter trainers and ground attack aircraft.

    The point was they were free to design anything they liked even if traditionally the usual OKBs won normally or even if an odd design from another OKB won the job of making it actually work went to the OKB that did that sort of thing, so Sukhoi designed the T-4, and much of the Tu-160 was inspired by designs by Myasishchev.

    But then the Il-102 failed and the Sukhoi Su-25 won the CAS role so history and expertise is not set in stone.

    after the start of the new civilian programs they even received modern western style assembly lines.

    As opposed to the old Soviet Tar Pits they used to grow planes in.... Rolling Eyes

    However the il-112v has demonstrated that is a stillborn project which would basically require a huge effort to turn it into an acceptable product.

    What a load of crap... they have one crash and haters are going to hate... well the Superjet has had crashes too... as did the fabled An-70...

    What I find very important for Russia is also the contribution of relatively new players as the Ural civil aviation plant in Ekaterinburg, which has also a dedicated design bureau and engine department, and basically developed the real successor to the An-24 using the let L-610 prototype as baseline. I see the TVRS-44 Ladoga as the new An-24.

    So you see the brand new Il-112 as a bad design but bringing back from the dead the L-410 and L-610 designs is the way forward?

    Interesting.

    Same thing can be done for the TVRS-44.
    Of course such development requires effort, but not more than fixing the Il-112V.

    You seem very sure of that, but what happens in 4 years time when the Czechs are looking for easy money and decide that these Russian designs are unlicensed copies of their designs and Russia owes them money for design royalties and starts seizing Russian aircraft in third party countries?

    Ilyushin recently had too many projects in the hand and to little people.

    Ilyusion is part of the UAC company... they should have a large pool of engineers they can shift around where needed, the least used branches should have plenty of staff to spare who could gain good experience.

    As far as the An-72 /74, it is an aircraft that I like and it fits some roles quite important for Russia.

    It is a Soviet ERA aircraft that should be getting replaced right now with new design projects for new engineers to cut their teeth on instead of just rehashing old Soviet shit.

    Of course you have old guys near retirement and young bucks who have never made anything because they keep upgrading old shit instead of phasing in a few new designs.

    Now lot of planes need to get the chop before they start killing people and they have the problem of not enough engineers to do all the jobs at once.

    The Il-476 is a priority and the Il-276 actually makes sense because it should be the quickest and easiest to design... a smaller lighter plane with half the number of engines and a shorter wing and fuselage and everything else pretty much the same... I would say scale it to a 30 ton payload size and give it engines more powerful than PD-14s... say something in the PD-18 class or PS90 equivalent.

    Maybe the production of a modernised version can be transferred to Aviakor in Samara, if the equipment in Kharkov will not have been completely destroyed in the meanwhile.

    The Il-276 would be an enlarged and stretched An-72 and would also fill the role of the An-12 too.

    Tell them not to fly it above me. Thanks.

    I don't think fly will be a problem... unless some members here get their way and Russia captures it... fills it with its 250 ton capacity of FOABs (about 18 or so) and uses it to take out Orcs...
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:02 am

    GarryB wrote:
    after the start of the new civilian programs they even received modern western style assembly lines.

    As opposed to the old Soviet Tar Pits they used to grow planes in....  Rolling Eyes



    What I meant is that they (Komsomolsk on Amur and later Irkutsk) received new automatic final assembly lines, not previously used in Russia/ Soviet union (where many of those operations were instead done manually), with jig-less assembly, automatic component alignment and automatic riveting, etc.

    If I am not mistaken those assembly lines were delivered from the west, while a similar one for the Il-476 in Ulyanovsk was made by Russia.

    (I replied on some of the other issues on the il-112v thread)
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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:10 am

    JohninMK wrote:Delusional  Shocked

    Sprinter Monitor
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    The most fantastic news of the day: Ukraine has begun building a new Mriya. The new An-225 aircraft is already 30% ready, said the general director of the Antonov enterprise Evgeny Gavrilov.

    Work to restore the largest cargo aircraft in the world destroyed during the attack on Gostomel is being carried out in a “secret place”

    Obviously, we are talking about the second unfinished An-225, which was offered to Russia and China. The plane is located in Kyiv at Antonov and its mythical completion is carried out there

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 17 Fg-t6gCX0AElMrI?format=jpg&name=small

    With a metric **** ton of funding poured into it, it could work I guess. But there's no way that husk is anywhere near "30%"... It technically was back in '89, but now?

    They'd probably need to redesign it for new engines and so on, too.

    Could be some vanity propaganda project with western cash, economically bonkers but slava ukraini.




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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:24 am

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Delusional  Shocked

    Sprinter Monitor
    @SprinterMonitor
    ·
    3h
    The most fantastic news of the day: Ukraine has begun building a new Mriya. The new An-225 aircraft is already 30% ready, said the general director of the Antonov enterprise Evgeny Gavrilov.

    Work to restore the largest cargo aircraft in the world destroyed during the attack on Gostomel is being carried out in a “secret place”

    Obviously, we are talking about the second unfinished An-225, which was offered to Russia and China. The plane is located in Kyiv at Antonov and its mythical completion is carried out there

    Ukrainian Aviation Industry: Discussion - Page 17 Fg-t6gCX0AElMrI?format=jpg&name=small

    With a metric **** ton of funding poured into it, it could work I guess. But there's no way that husk is anywhere near "30%"... It technically was back in '89, but now?

    They'd probably need to redesign it for new engines and so on, too.

    Could be some vanity propaganda project with western cash, economically bonkers but slava ukraini.




    Soon they will not be even able to keep the existing An-124 of Antonov airline airworthy, unless they send their engines to Russia, also because Motor sich will be either destroyed or in Russian hands.

    I do not know if they are still able to produce new D18T engines in Zaporozhye, but soon that will not be an Ukrainian issue anymore.

    Note:In the past there was a program to replace the D18T of the An-124 with the even older (but at least regularly upgraded) GE CF6, but it never went anywhere

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