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    Russian Auto Industry

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Oct 15, 2022 6:12 pm

    The cosmetic refresh cycle trash does not even last 10 years. That is not a self-evidently superior model for
    car production.

    Watch some car review videos. They are obsessed with soft plastics and cup holder features. They barely touch
    on the mechanical robustness.



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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:21 pm

    Robert.V wrote:
    kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
    It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
    "regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
    5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
    at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.


    Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.


    But is there a niche for cheap cars that look like crap but that run forever?

    I'd say there is. I remember meeting one man from Israel, who swore by the Lada Niva as the best invention out of Russia and would mention the thing at every turn over the course of our correspondence. And this guy had no Russian ancestry or any experience with the Russian/Soviet automobile industry prior.

    These types of cars have their fans, and if it's economical to keep them in production in lower numbers then rest assured they will continue to have their customer base and make money for the brand owners.

    But for mass production Russia needs to do the same as everybody else. Just a fact of the market. People do like buying cars that they then have to replace in 5-10 years, provided they can afford this habit - much as they like buying new phones every 2 years instead of just sticking with older models for 5 years. It's not just a matter of that being their only option. Cars are also a status symbol, new models are regularly introduced with features that make drivers lives easier or more comfortable, and car designs visually go out of fashion after a period of time too.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sat Oct 15, 2022 8:35 pm

    Maybe in the skyrocketed and suffocating world inflation of the future Russia should be able to open a global niche for cheap electric Moskvitch cars, squeezing out costly Western brands in a world of people under the increasing burden of rising high costs of living and reduced leftover income for affording excessively sophisticated and expensive cars.


    Last edited by Kiko on Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:00 pm

    It is true that the Soviet model locked in the design for way too long (e.g. the "buhanka"). But you do not need a design refresh
    every year. And my original point was about the parts. There is no reason to change out every component together with
    the shell, internal plastics, driver display, entertainment system, etc. When you go to get your car fixed, you are not spending money
    on replacing internal plastics or even the dash control/entertainment system.

    The western car model is a racket and Russia not need to mimic it to keep up. There is nothing to keep up with. People are seriously
    confused about the technology lifecycle in automobiles. It has nothing to do with annual marketing driven cosmetic makeovers. The
    problems in the Russian car industry the legacy of the Soviet era and the 1990s mafia rot. Berezovsky was a mafioso who contributed
    much to screwing up the Russian car industry.

    I think Chinese and other non-western car brands should be allowed inside Russia to put some fire under the testicles of the managers
    at AvtoVaz, etc. In terms of commercial vehicle production, Russia has been doing vastly better than with the consumer sector.

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    Robert.V


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    Post  Robert.V Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:55 am

    kvs wrote:It is true that the Soviet model locked in the design for way too long (e.g. the "buhanka").   But you do not need a design refresh
    every year.
      And my original point was about the parts.   There is no reason to change out every component together with
    the shell, internal plastics, driver display, entertainment system, etc.   When you go to get your car fixed, you are not spending money
    on replacing internal plastics or even the dash control/entertainment system.  

     

    Oh, I agree.

    Unless I'm mistaken though. Not many manufactures do design refresh every year.  That was really only common in the states in the 50's, 60's and half way thru the 70's.

    A refresh generally happened every four~ five years.  With model range lasting up to 7 to 10 years.


    flamming_python wrote:

    But is there a niche for cheap cars that look like crap but that run forever?


    Like with porn.  There is a niche for everything my friend.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:20 pm

    New electric cars will become very much like apple computers... you replace them every 2-3 years when the battery stops holding charge...

    I wonder if they can modularise the basics, so you buy a car, which is a car body with the lower portion being the electric motors built in to the wheels and the lower chassis which is the batteries and electronics, and then you choose... how many people positions... do you want a single seat vehicle for commuting to work every day, or a two seat in case you take some one home, or do you want the two front seats and three back seats and then boot for shopping, or scrub the boot and just have two sets of back seats each holding three seats... three for the front seat as well so a 9 seater... normal car doors or sliding doors and large rear hatch door...

    The top shell would determine the number of seating positions or whether it is a car or a mini or a van or light truck or a minivan or flat bed ute.

    You could design it so that you had one base and could replace the tops yourself so during the week you had a tiny car for the commute to work with a light cheap small two seater, but larger shells like four seat or more might have extra batteries.

    The could design the shells to look like classic cars for the weekend or a SUV shell for weekend for skiing holidays or trips to the supermarket.

    But how do you make it profitable?
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Oct 16, 2022 12:43 pm

    The Chinese experimented with standardized battery packs that can be just replaced at service point on the way. Takes the same time as fuel you car. Works similar way the bottled LPG distribution, you just replace it. It is not "yours".
    The lack of this battery standardization makes the clue of the problem, and the whole concept laughable.
    The real damage to the environment created by electric cars is enormous, but the bullshit eco propaganda is used to fool the people and covers that.
    Batteries for cars are de facto NOT RECYCLED at all - we talk about some laughable percentage or experimental programs.
    The reason is that those are all different, and you can't automate the recycling process.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:03 pm

    Lack of standardization is a clear sign of a racket. This is where the government is supposed to step in and regulate. It is not
    a case of interference in the market that degrades consumer options and introduces inefficiencies. It is actually a case of fighting
    criminality.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 16, 2022 6:15 pm

    kvs wrote:Lack of standardization is a clear sign of a racket.   This is where the government is supposed to step in and regulate.   It is not
    a case of interference in the market that degrades consumer options and introduces inefficiencies.   It is actually a case of fighting
    criminality.  
    I think it will happen eventually but right now no one has figured out the correct battery pack. Note that the battery packs still use standardized cells inside, it is just the packs which are non-standard.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:05 am

    An opportunity for Russia perhaps... they were working on graphene based batteries that hold their charge down to minus 50 degrees C... and they also mentioned that they were building a lithium battery reprocessing plant a while back in the technology thread.

    Once they have a good reliable powerful cold resistant battery perhaps Russia can use their laws the way the EU does to regulate Russian vehicles for the purpose of ensuring simplified reprocessing the materials and standardise battery chemistries if not shapes.

    You might have a couple of different standards for say light vehicles and heavier vehicles from mopeds and motor bikes through tiny cars, small, medium, large cars, light trucks and vans, through to large vans and trucks and buses and even trains and aircraft.

    There was a recent article in the UAV section about Russian companies developing electric motors in a broad range of sizes, so having batteries to match would make sense too.

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:32 am

    I've got the impression that this is an adaptation of ROFAR air radars to police patrol cars:

    DPS patrol cars are equipped with beams with all-round visibility, by Vladimir Barshev for Rossiyskaya Gazeta.10.16.2022.

    Perhaps as early as next year, traffic police cars will begin to be equipped with beams, which, in addition to flashing blue and red beacons, also carry out automatic traffic control. Mikhail Chernikov, head of the State Traffic Inspectorate of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Russia, spoke about this at a forum held in Kazan.

    The idea of ​​such beams arose two years ago. These devices not only provide a 360-degree view, read license plates and record violations. They also allow you to identify cars right in the stream, as well as people who are wanted.


    As Mikhail Chernikov explained, this will make it possible not to stop cars for inspection without reason. If the camera recognizes that the car is wanted for one reason or another, a corresponding message will appear on the monitor, and the inspector will purposefully stop it for inspection.

    In addition, the device recognizes the faces of those who are in the interior of a patrol car, on the street, as well as in the interiors of cars passing by.

    As the developer of these beams explained to RG, the Cyber-Sheriff hardware-software complex is a set of flexibly customizable advanced systems and modules interconnected. The device is installed on a patrol car without changing its design.

    https://rg.ru/2022/10/16/vzgliad-iz-pod-migalki.html

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Oct 17, 2022 5:04 am

    Robert.V wrote:
    kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
    It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
    "regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
    5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
    at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.


    Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.


    I disagree. We have gone waaaaaay far off to the other extreme. The amount of bloatware and waste in modern autos is sickening. And because of this , cars are getting heavier and less efficient. Some mid 90's cars actually get better fuel economy than today's equivalents because of this. Look at the screens in some of this new stuff like the new Cadillac Escalade. It's insane.

    There are lots of segments in the auto industry where frills don't matter. The Nissan Frontier for example , was the same model from 1997 to 2021.


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    Post  wilhelm Mon Oct 17, 2022 10:46 am

    My 2003 diesel car currently gets 25km to the litre.
    I have not bothered to "upgrade" to a new "better" car because I don't drink from their "consumers" cup.
    It does everything a newer car does, and everything I require of it. At a fraction of the cost.
    I'm not an idiot.
    I realised years ago what the car industry was about, supported by govt "legislation" that attempts to make it harder to keep that car.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 17, 2022 11:07 am

    wilhelm wrote:My 2003 diesel car currently gets 25km to the litre.
    I have not bothered to "upgrade" to a new "better" car because I don't drink from their "consumers" cup.
    It does everything a newer car does, and everything I require of it. At a fraction of the cost.
    I'm not an idiot.
    I realised years ago what the car industry was about, supported by govt "legislation" that attempts to make it harder to keep that car.

    It is true in that.
    A car that consumed the less in my whole life, was a Citroen C5 with 2.0 163KM HDi diesel.
    I hit 4.2/100 once, while driving alone for 380 km, 70-90km max.
    All the ones I had after that were consuming more and more, and now my supa-dupa "hybrid" takes 10l as soon as I cross the city limits.
    There is no bloody option that it will take less, it weights DOUBLE to my previous one. 2.5t, imagine Shocked Battery pack and all the shit assisting "power reverse" are quite heavy.

    And what pissed me most of the time with my previous car, was the range. Fully tanked, it was able to make 500km on a highway. Holiday planning was getting close to fukin' military logistics.

    Ecology, stupid!

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    Post  Robert.V Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:15 pm

    Backman wrote:
    Robert.V wrote:
    kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
    It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
    "regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
    5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
    at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.


    Bad, idea.  Soviet stagnated their Automobile manufacturers because of exactly that. Keeping automobiles on the production line that should have been replaced decades ago and or barely refreshing them.


    I disagree. We have gone waaaaaay far off to the other extreme. The amount of bloatware and waste in modern autos is sickening. And because of this , cars are getting heavier and less efficient. Some mid 90's cars actually get better fuel economy than today's equivalents because of this. Look at the screens in some of this new stuff like the new Cadillac Escalade. It's insane.

    There are lots of segments in the auto industry where frills don't matter.  The Nissan Frontier for example , was the same model from 1997 to 2021.


    What does bloatware have to do with keeping models running with little to half ass changes for decades like the soviets did?   You're reply to my post  makes no sense.  


    Also,  cars are getting heavier because they are getting safer both in terms of crash collision and in terms of helping you avoid it. Not because of "waste or bloatware."

    Now you might argue is something like Automatic Emergency Braking really necessary or safe.  I'd say ride with a fucking woman in a car you will very much be happy that car has that option.


    The only real bloatware in a car.    I would say is the control and navigation displays evolving into very much for the most part useless infotainment systems  with  frankly horrible input and interfaces.
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    Post  wilhelm Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:13 pm

    I have abs and airbags and Aircon in my 2003 Peugeot.
    I don't have fancy displays/dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree to distract me when driving.
    It uses 4 litres per 100km, and gets me where I want safely, warmly, dry, reliably, and economically.
    The govt here, in collusion with insurance companies, try and get me to "upgrade".
    I'm completely disinterested in their games.

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    Post  Robert.V Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:27 pm

    Yep, infotainment systems especially modern once are fucking plague and utterly unsafe especially the fully  touch screen/pad ones.  with zillion fucking slow ass menus, etc.    

    Fortunately enough proper buttons are coming back.   PSA Group especially seem to have gotten the clue a head of others.



    Last edited by Robert.V on Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:36 pm

    Robert.V wrote:Yep, infotainment systems especially modern once are fucking plague and utterly unsafe especially the fully  touch screen/pad ones.  with zillion fucking slow ass menus, etc.    
    Fortunately enough proper buttons are coming back.   PSA Group especially seem to have gotten the clue a head of others.

    There was some test made lately with the old Volvo S80 vs. some modern cars with big displays.
    S80 was considered very complicated to operate the subsystems and was widely criticized for that.
    Yet the same things - operating radio, A/C etc - could have been carried TWICE as fast as for the best display-operated analog.

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    Post  Robert.V Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:57 pm

    Another car trend I wish we never had is modern car seats  courtesy of the German and the fucking Swedes.  Which every car manufacturer started to adopt after the 90's.    Rock hard and most of the time offer no comfortable driving position.    And this shit is supposed to be good for you're back ?

    If you ever driven  a old school Peugeot,  Citroen, American or some of the older luxury Italian cars.  You know what I mean.    

    Peugeot in the 90's especially.  Top of the range had superb seats and ride comfort while also  being great handling cars  that utterly took a shit on the Germans.   Yet, badge snobbery prevailed.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 17, 2022 6:58 pm

    All of the PSA group actually owns very comfortable seats to this very day.
    That applies to the Opel, too - Insignia is one of very few models on the market you can have with the massage.
    Same for Peugeot 508/5008 and Citroen C5.
    Used to have them all Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Post  wilhelm Mon Oct 17, 2022 9:19 pm

    Robert.V wrote:Another car trend I wish we never had is modern car seats  courtesy of the German and the fucking Swedes.  Which every car manufacturer started to adopt after the 90's.    Rock hard and most of the time offer no comfortable driving position.    And this shit is supposed to be good for you're back ?

    If you ever driven  a old school Peugeot,  Citroen, American or some of the older luxury Italian cars.  You know what I mean.    

    Peugeot in the 90's especially.  Top of the range had superb seats and ride comfort while also  being great handling cars  that utterly took a shit on the Germans.   Yet, badge snobbery prevailed.
    A lot of German cars I drove, especially the smaller ones, had overly stiff suspension and rock hard seats.
    A terrible drive.
    My old Peugeot shits all over them in ride quality...another reason I'm quite happy to keep it, nevermind its efficiency.
    My nephew has a brand new VW something-or-other.
    His consternation when I demonstrated my fuel usage left him without words. Smile

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    Post  lancelot Sun Nov 13, 2022 1:21 am

    Production of components for AvtoVAZ vehicles doubled in Belgorod Region
    2022-10-06

    "Starooskolsky plant of automotive and tractor electrical equipment named after V.I. A.M. Mamonov (JSC SOATE) increased the production of parts for gear shifting mechanisms from 120 thousand to 280 thousand sets per year. They are used in the assembly of finished gearboxes and the subsequent assembly of Lada Granta, Lada Vesta and Niva cars.

    Earlier in the market, according to the company, more than 50% of such parts were foreign-made, mainly from Europe. Now the company will completely replace imports.

    Investments in the expansion of production exceeded 390 million rubles, of which 300 million rubles was a soft loan from the Industrial Development Fund.

    “Thanks to the FRP project, we have the opportunity to produce any parts with mechanical processing by injection molding and weighing up to 3 kg. Now we have been able to localize the production of gearbox components in Russia, which were previously supplied from abroad. In parallel with this, we additionally created 21 highly productive workplaces ,” said Vladimir Boev, Managing Director of SOATE JSC.

    Parts of the gearshift mechanism are made entirely from domestic raw materials.

    It is noted that the manufactured products are developed by manufacturers of automotive components and correspond to the world level in terms of technical indicators. The competitive advantage is a lower price compared to foreign counterparts and better logistics.

    Recall that the Industrial Development Fund was created to modernize Russian enterprises, organize new industries and ensure import substitution. FRP programs allow Russian companies to get access to concessional loan financing necessary to launch the production of unique domestic products, as well as analogues of advanced international developments. The IDF provides loans at 1% and 3% per annum for up to 10 years in the amount of 5 million to 5 billion rubles, stimulating the inflow of direct investment in the real sector of the economy.

    https://uronili-salo.livejournal.com/299032.html


    The Ministry of Industry and Trade reported a 26.5 percent increase in car production in Russia in August
    2022-09-28

    Production of cars of all segments in Russia in August increased by 26.5% compared to July, to 37.1 thousand, Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade Albert Karimov told reporters.

    "We have a production of about 420 thousand cars, which is also 60% less than in the same period last year. This is the latest operational data for 8 months. To a lesser extent, we see a decrease in buses and trucks - about 13-14%, the largest a decrease in passenger cars - more than 60%. Production by July is positive - an increase of 26.5% ," he said.

    At the same time, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation specified that in absolute terms, 37.1 thousand cars were produced in August (-59.5% compared to August 2021).

    Also, according to the ministry, a total of 513 thousand cars were sold in eight months (-57% in annual terms).

    “The situation here is different in terms of different segments. We see the smallest decline in buses – there is only about 1.5%, the largest – in cars. At the same time, sales in August are growing compared to July: in August, sales amounted to 54,000 cars, which is almost 22% more than a month earlier ," Karimov explained.

    https://1prime.ru/industry_and_energy/20220928/838279973.html

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    Post  Kiko Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:24 pm

    Iconic Soviet car brand making a comeback, 11.18.2022.

    The production of Moskvich cars at a former Renault plant is expected to start as early as next week, Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin said.

    Production of an updated version of the iconic Soviet-era Moskvich brand of cars is set to be revived at a former Renault plant in the Russian capital, Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin has announced in an interview with RIA Novosti.

    "As early as next week it [the Moskvich plant] will start its first assembly. And next year, hopefully, it will reach work volumes comparable to the period when Renault was here,” Sobyanin stated.

    The factory in Moscow, which was established in 1930, was the original producer of Moskvich cars back in Soviet times. In the early 2000s, the plant was bought by Renault and the Moskvich line was discontinued. However, this past May the French automaker handed the plant over to the Moscow authorities amid the company’s exit from Russia due to sanctions. Shortly thereafter, the plant’s name was changed back to Moskvich.

    According to the company’s plans, the plant will produce “state-of-the-art” car models, including a sedan and four crossovers. Production of electric cars at the plant is also on the agenda and may start in two to three years.

    According to Sobyanin, the city has successfully adapted to Western sanctions, as many of the niches vacated by foreign investors over the past months have been filled by Russian entrepreneurs.

    "The vast majority of our enterprises have adapted to the situation. Moreover, the profitability of these enterprises is gradually recovering, including in the financial sector, where the collapse of profits was most evident. That is why we, from the point of view of the budget, feel quite confident,” he stated.

    He noted, however, that car production has been lagging behind as many manufacturers decided to end their operations in the country this year. This is why the Moscow authorities are placing high hopes on the Moskvich plant. In late October, Sobyanin said he expects Moscow to become the center for automobile manufacturing in Russia, and that the city has all the capabilities to do this.

    https://www.rt.com/business/566745-iconic-soviet-car-brand-russia/

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    Post  lancelot Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:03 pm

    The names of the new "Muscovites" have been revealed: these will be rebadged JAC vehicles, the brand has received VTA for gasoline and electric crossovers
    November 16, 2022

    Vehicle type approvals (VTA) for new "Muscovites" have appeared on the Web. The Moskvich 3 and Moskvich 3e models are the rebadged JAC JS4 and E40X, so the initial rumors were once again confirmed. The Moskvich 3 crossover will be offered with two engines to choose from, aspirated or turbocharged. The Moskvich 3e will receive a 68-horsepower electric motor and will be able to drive up to 410 kilometers without recharging. The production of the machines was planned to be launched by the end of this year.

    According to the VTA, JAC JS4 crossovers will be sold under the name "Moskvich 3". Moreover, KAMAZ is indicated as a car manufacturer, and the Moscow Automobile Plant Moskvich, formerly Renault Russia, is indicated as an assembly plant.

    Two modifications have been announced, both front-wheel drive, with a six-speed "manual" or a CVT. Engines - "aspirated" 1.6 (109 hp, 150 Nm) and turbocharged 1.5 (150 hp, 210 Nm), powered by gasoline AI-92.

    The Moskvich 3 equipment will include power windows, climate control, tire pressure monitoring and a driver's airbag. Cruise control, rear view camera, parking sensors, passenger airbag and side curtains will be offered for an additional fee.

    The JAC E40X electric all-terrain vehicle will turn into the Moskvich 3e. It will be equipped with a liquid-cooled DY Power electric motor (68 hp) and a Sinoev Technologies battery with a capacity of 187 ampere-hours (250-450 V). The declared power reserve is 410 kilometers. The list of equipment for the electric Moskvich is the same as for the gasoline twin brother.

    Last summer, Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin unveiled the "road map" of the Moskvich plant for the coming years. The first stage is the organization of large scale assembly of cars from so-called friendly countries. The second is a deeper localization of the production of the same machines. And only then the company will start assembling its own electric vehicles. KAMAZ will be the main technological partner of the project.

    https://motor.ru/news/moksvich-otts-16-11-2022.htm


    Last edited by lancelot on Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:16 pm

    Good to see how it will be working with Kamaz and others in tandem and localizing production and manufacturing.

    Right move imo.

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