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    Russian Auto Industry

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:59 pm

    I suppose that collaboration with Kamaz is made because JAC produces trucks and other types o commercial vehicles.
    I would say it is a very versatile and potent partner.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:50 am

    “ If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. ”
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    Post  kvs Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:54 am

    GarryB wrote:“ If you want to go quickly, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. ”

    They managed to reboot the factory without having it go offline for several years while they came up with their own new designs.
    This is called rational economic decision making. Down the line the venture can evolved into a full blown company and create
    its own models.

    I have seen Russian review videos of JAC sedans and they are not shabby at all. I would say they are upgrade compared
    to Avtovaz products.

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Nov 20, 2022 9:38 am

    Yes they are.
    One of the models, JS7 if I remember, is a rip-off of the new Hyundai SantaFe. A big, luxury SUV, one of the biggest in the class.
    They produce a variety of full-electric cars, and a hell of utility/commercial pieces. What they offer is very versatile and interesting.
    Russians will drive domesticated Chinese cars as long as they won't rebuild their own supply chain. With the Chinese again.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:44 am

    ALAMO wrote:Yes they are.
    One of the models, JS7 if I remember, is a rip-off of the new Hyundai SantaFe. A big, luxury SUV, one of the biggest in the class.
    They produce a variety of full-electric cars, and a hell of utility/commercial pieces. What they offer is very versatile and interesting.
    Russians will drive domesticated Chinese cars as long as they won't rebuild their own supply chain. With the Chinese again.

    Do you think that even in the long run Russia will need to have part of the supply chain independent from China?
    I mean it is OK to have maybe different suppliers for similar parts, but in the long run it would be dangerous to be completely dependent from China on some parts.

    Maybe they can have "parallel" supply chain, where some components currently imported will also be manufactured inside the country at least for a part of the supply, ideally with the capability to increase this percentage if it is required.

    I know that this is not "efficient" with the idiotic western financial parameters that only look at the short time benefits including keeping the storage to a minimum (just in time manufacturing, "lean warehouses ", etc). But these concepts work only when there are no disturbances to your own supply.

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:31 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Do you think that even in the long run Russia will need to have part of the supply chain independent from China?
    I mean it is OK to have maybe different suppliers for similar parts, but in the long run it would be dangerous to be completely dependent from China on some parts.
    Maybe they can have "parallel" supply chain, where some components currently imported will also be manufactured inside the country at least for a part of the supply, ideally with the capability to increase this percentage if it is required.
    I know that this is not "efficient" with the idiotic western financial parameters that only look at the short time benefits  including keeping the storage to a minimum (just in time manufacturing, "lean warehouses ", etc). But these concepts work only when there are no disturbances to your own supply.

    Everyone does. Why Russia shouldn't? Most of the cars electronics is made in China. That applies even to the luxury brands like BMW or MB.
    A friend of mine is a high-ranking manager in the VAG group. China is his second home. A huge share of replacement parts is manufactured there as well.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:06 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Do you think that even in the long run Russia will need to have part of the supply chain independent from China?
    I mean it is OK to have maybe different suppliers for similar parts, but in the long run it would be dangerous to be completely dependent from China on some parts.
    Maybe they can have "parallel" supply chain, where some components currently imported will also be manufactured inside the country at least for a part of the supply, ideally with the capability to increase this percentage if it is required.
    I know that this is not "efficient" with the idiotic western financial parameters that only look at the short time benefits  including keeping the storage to a minimum (just in time manufacturing, "lean warehouses ", etc). But these concepts work only when there are no disturbances to your own supply.

    Everyone does. Why Russia shouldn't? Most of the cars electronics is made in China. That applies even to the luxury brands like BMW or MB.
    A friend of mine is a high-ranking manager in the VAG group. China is his second home. A huge share of replacement parts is manufactured there as well.

    I know, but was this a good decision?

    In the west in the last 30 years they completely renounced to a lot of things previously internally manufactured.

    Now they are trying to sober up and invert this thread.

    Furthermore, as we discussed in the other thread, Russia is trying to boost ist capabilities in production of microelectronics equipment. That means that eventually in the future (maybe 5 maybe 10 years) they will be able to produce locally and possibly independently also the chips for modern smartphones, computers and of course car electronics.

    It is OK for now to import parts from China. What is not a good decision is to rely on that forever.

    Having a larger internal market for electronics (by supplying also the components for cars (and not only) will also help the microelectronics industry anyway.
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    Post  ALAMO Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:22 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    I know, but was this a good decision?
    In the west in the last 30 years they completely renounced to a lot of things previously internally manufactured.
    Now they are trying to sober up and invert this thread.
    Furthermore, as we discussed in the other thread, Russia is trying to boost ist capabilities in production of microelectronics equipment.  That means that eventually in the future (maybe 5 maybe 10 years) they will be able to produce locally and possibly independently also the chips for modern smartphones, computers and of course car electronics.
    It is OK for now to import parts from China. What is not a good decision is to rely on that forever.
    Having a larger internal market for electronics (by supplying also the components for cars (and not only) will also help the microelectronics industry anyway.

    This business is made like that. Sure you can ask them to reinvent the wheel, yet it would be ineffective.
    It is why China became such a huge car manufacturer in a relatively short time. All the know&how was already there. Standards were already there. This is why yapping about "inferior Chinese cars" makes me laugh - those are made with exactly the same standards as the others. In the same factories, by the same personnel.
    Russia had quite impressive localization of production. They had production lines for Mercedes, Skoda, VW, Renault, Dacia. Mitsubishi had an engine factory there.
    They didn't only assembled the cars, but produced and exported some vital elements like gearboxes and engines. This is why they can relatively easy switch to the other cars production, what we are witnessing now.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:54 am

    Parts are made in China because cheap mass production on a large scale makes the products cheap, whether they are entire cars or parts needed to keep the car working.

    The fact that China is making parts for most of the western world and also trying to sell to the rest of the world as well means an enormous market so they can have enormous production capacity with no risk of it all sitting idle because while western countries might run out of money and prefer to spend it on being warm, the rest of the world are looking to grow and develop.

    The value of the Ruble should make production in Russia practical too and as wages in China increase over time as their economy increases then more and more components will make sense to be built in Russia or China or both.

    The delivery of choice means it is very unlikely that Russians will only buy from one producer... there will be as many different types of car buyers there as anywhere else.

    There will be the car heads who want specific types of car no matter what and there will be car users who don't care about cars and just want something that is affordable and reliable and gets them where they want to go without problems... and that includes without problems getting support and parts.

    There will be others who want the most expensive because they are rich now and they want to rub every ones nose in it, or they have connections so they will drive a BMW despite them being banned and hard to get parts for just to show their power and money.

    The core point is that Russia needs to make affordable reliable cars that are comfortable and suit Russian conditions... who else is going to make a car that suits Russian conditions?

    Their new technology can play a part with those new graphine based batteries that work at minus 50 degrees C would make them rather popular... high quality solar panels that work on other frequencies than just visible light so they even work inside would be valuable additions too...

    With batteries that don't die because of the cold you could set up a solar panel and wind generator so if it is windy and sunny during the day you can get a small range boost. (obviously you would not use a wind generator while driving because the extra drag would increase the electricity you use to move the car and create a net loss of power because you are burning more energy than you recover).

    But sitting parked in the street on a windy day you could erect a wind generator to run a small heater to keep the inside of the car warm and windows clear... especially if the solar panels are built into the windows.

    What western car would have that?
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    Post  kvs Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:45 am

    The Russian JAC venture is not merely a kit assembly operation. Local Russian companies will make the parts to varying degree based on time
    going forward. This has been the norm for many years. It is one of the reasons why there has not been a massive supply chain disruption
    after the sanctions war started in March. Russian companies moved in to substitute parts and also source them from China and I think India
    and other countries.

    I used to be more bothered about China "ripping off" western products, but could care less now. The west is a collection of colonialist
    dicks and it is a game of survival. China did not have the luxury of playing by someone else's rules of "fairness". It will not have to rip off
    the declining west in the future and has the critical mass to develop its own products.

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    Post  Kiko Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:14 pm

    The Russian automotive market has changed beyond recognition, by Olga Samofalova for VZGLYAD. 11.21.2022.

    The choice of cars in Russia has narrowed down to the products of three countries - Russia, China and Korea. The share of AvtoVAZ returned to record values ​​- more than 40%, which has not been seen since the distant 2005. True, Chinese manufacturers are stepping on his heels. However, this year you should not dream of pre-New Year discounts. Why are car prices still rising and parallel imports not saving the day?

    The Russian automotive market has changed dramatically over the past year. The share of AvtoVAZ continues to grow - and in November it reached a record high. According to Avtostat, the share of Lada increased to 42% of the total market over the past week (from November 7 to 13). The share of Lada for the first time since 2006 exceeded 40% in September of this year, but its growth continues.

    The last time the share of the Russian brand exceeded 40% back in 2005, and in 2006 it fell to 36.9%. After 2007, the share of Lada in the Russian market was consistently below the 30% mark, and in 2014 it dropped even to the minimum 15%, Avtostat experts note.

    Let's go back to November 2022. Familiar European brands are now almost never found in sales ratings. Following Lada, which were sold more than 4.6 thousand last week, there are three Chinese brands at once: Haval (992 cars sold), Chery (946) and Geely (783). The fifth and sixth positions, according to Avtostat, were occupied by the Korean Kia (682) and Hyundai (564). In seventh place is the Chinese brand EXEED (290), which is slightly behind the French Renault (287). Also in the top 10 were the Japanese Toyota (276) and the Russian UAZ (233).

    The Russian automotive market is now divided by three main competitors - the Russian Lada, Chinese and Korean brands. Getting into the rating of the French and Japanese is easy to explain - dealers are selling off the remains from warehouses. And allowing parallel imports doesn't help much yet. “Thanks to parallel imports, dealers are able to maintain supplies of popular models. However, it does not yet provide the volumes of new cars required by the market. So far, cars of foreign brands are imported piece by piece, and the logistics that the dealer takes on increase the cost of cars. The problem is also that since October 1, the requirement for imported cars to install a button of the ERA-GLONASS system has returned, ”says a representative of the press service of the AvtoSpetsTsentr group of companies.

    The low performance of the Koreans is explained by the fact that their already not the cheapest cars have risen in price, plus the equipment is mostly expensive. As a result, not a single Korean car is in the top 10 best-selling cars. “Korean brands have lost some of their Russian customers. Manufacturers are losing ground against the backdrop of a wider offer from Chinese brands,” AvtoSpetsTsentr notes.

    According to "AUTOSTAT", the most bought car in Russia now is Lada Granta. It is followed by the off-road cars Lada Niva Travel and Lada Niva Legend by a wide margin. And only then in the model rating are the "Chinese": Chery Tiggo 7 PRO, Haval Jolion and Geely Coolray. Cars of the Lada Vesta family are inferior to the Chinese and occupy only the seventh line. Next come the Haval F7 crossover and Geely Atlas Pro. Closed the top ten UAZ "Patriot". As you can see, the top 10 best-selling cars consist exclusively of domestic and Chinese models.

    The share of the Russian automotive industry in the domestic market is growing for obvious reasons. “The first is the departure of Western brands and the rise in prices for cars of these brands. Car dealerships sold cars from warehouses, but now they are almost empty. Prices have also been affected - for cars produced in the EU, the USA and Japan, the cost has increased by more than 50% since the beginning of the year, and buyers, amid economic changes in the country, have reduced spending on large purchases.

    Moreover, in the first half of the year, loan rates rose to 22-24% per annum against the backdrop of an increase in the key rate to 20%,” says Fedor Sidorov, founder of the School of Practical Investment.

    In addition, Russians who wanted to buy a car began to make a choice in favor of the brands that remained on the market, fearing that there would subsequently be no spare parts for the purchased car of a Western brand, and their maintenance would become problematic. But this will not happen with Russian brands, and it is believed that it is easier to repair them, adds Sidorov.

    Since the beginning of the year, the share of Chinese cars in Russia has already tripled, said a spokesman for the Avtodom Group of Companies.

    “Over the past few years, the Chinese auto industry has changed significantly not only in design, but also in advanced technologies in terms of aggregates and equipment. In terms of configuration and equipment, Chinese cars are already superior to Korean, Japanese and European models due to the included comfort and safety options, he says.

    However, experts believe that Chinese brands have not revealed their full potential in Russia. “In the future, we will see an increase in the share of Chinese brands. It took time for manufacturers from China to resolve logistics issues and come to new sites. China is unlikely to miss the opportunity to enter an almost empty market,” Sidorov believes.

    Rise in price can slow down sales of a domestic brand. “The growth in prices for Lada cars this year has already amounted to about 70%. To what extent this is justified is difficult to judge. But there is at least one factor that led to this: the complication of logistics for the supply of necessary Western components. As you know, in the Russian automotive industry, dependence on imports (mainly electronics) is 80%,” the source notes.

    The other day, even Vladimir Putin instructed not to allow an unreasonable increase in car prices, despite the difficulties with logistics. At the same time, the head of AvtoVAZ, Maxim Sokolov, said that the situation with the supply of components from abroad for the production of Lada cars remains difficult, and there is a tendency to worsen. He acknowledged that recently global suppliers have been refusing to cooperate with Russian manufacturers, because of this, the risks of undersupply of even those components that are not included in the sanctions list are growing. According to Sokolov, the company copes with difficulties literally "on the teeth".

    Therefore, it is hardly worth waiting for the traditional New Year's sales, to which Russians are already accustomed, in the automotive business. There is no overstocking in warehouses, and no one can guarantee the supply of models of the new series. However, it is also not worth waiting for price increases, Sidorov believes.

    "Any increase in price sooner or later rests on purchasing power. And now car loans and the total volume of car purchases in the country are declining. The Russians have switched to a crisis model of consumption, when large purchases are postponed for the future.

    An increase in the cost of a car will further reduce demand, which both manufacturers and sellers understand,” he said.

    "There are no prerequisites for a decrease in prices for cars until the end of the year, as their deficit remains. Therefore, there are no plans for New Year's sales of new cars, ”says a representative of the press service of Avtodom Group of Companies.

    https://vz.ru/economy/2022/11/21/1187340.html

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    Post  lancelot Tue Nov 22, 2022 2:17 pm

    They need to continue doing import substitution. I know the industry in Russia is working on making their own MCUs. There is no reason why Russia cannot make these low end automotive chips themselves if they want to. These use older processes which Mikron or Angstrem-T can produce just fine. Heck, some of them, like 8-bit MCUs, use processes so old even Integral at Belarus can probably make them.

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    Post  Belisarius Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:53 pm

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 27 Img_2209
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    The former Peugeot factory in Moscow has restarted production once again, but now under the legendary Soviet legacy brand 'Moskvich'
    https://t.me/intelslava/41656?single

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    Post  Krepost Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:44 pm

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:12 am

    AURUS Komendant launched into the series

    At the AURUS plant in Tatarstan, mass production of the first Russian luxury SUV has begun. For the domestic auto industry — this is an unprecedented start: less than a year and a half after the opening of the AURUS plant in Elabuga, the second, completely new brand model is already being put into production.

    For the AURUS project, this is a transition to a fundamentally new stage with an emphasis on Russian know-how, materials, components — their share is already 70%: the main components of the car, power plant, transmission, electronics, interior and decorative solutions.

    The AURUS — phenomenon is the idea of a fully Russian luxury car that has been turned into industrial success: it contains our engineering idea, our technology, thousands of jobs in our manufacturers from among AURUS suppliers.

    Source:
    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/149161/

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    Post  sepheronx Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:17 am

    In Tatarstan, the production of light commercial vehicles Atlant and Argo

    In Tatarstan, a project was launched to organize the production of cars under their own brand « Sollers » on the site of the SEZ « Alabuga ».

    In addition to commercial units, special-purpose machines were presented: school buses, block transportation, ambulance assistance. New Russian products are named « Atlant » and « Argo ». The version of the car on the electric motor is also shown.

    Source:
    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/149156/
    https://www.tatar-inform.ru/news/minnixanov-i-manturov-zapustili-v-elabuge-proizvodstvo-masin-pod-brendom-sollers-5887973

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:13 am

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    I woudn't feel offended while driving one I guess ... Laughing
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    Post  kvs Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:56 pm

    All the luxury brands have similar formats and "look and feel". It is organic I suppose. Look back over the last 100 years, there was
    no region where cars and other vehicles were totally distinct. But I will admit that Citroen's designs were more fringe and Japan had
    tiny utility vehicles dictated by its geography.

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    Post  Hole Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:30 pm

    And tiny people.  Very Happy

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:54 pm

    ... and the other historical issues, like lets say Italy. Small cars to fit small and narrow streets. Ever drove Italian "autostrada" 🤭? It is some 30% smaller than all others. Enjoy crossing the Alps😈

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    Post  limb Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:34 pm

    Now that intellectual property laws in russia are anulled, is it possible to reverse engineer and massproduce copies of BMWs and mercedes sports coupes and affordable sedans?
    Most russians, especially young males, love BMWs because theyre one of the most beautiful cars ever made, great for drift racing(extremely popular in Russia) and are affordable when used. BMW copies thus would sell like hotcakes. Russia could go back to building a modernized copy of the 1999 3 series design, because its objectively the most beautiful BMW sedan, and most aesthetic car ever made. It could fill a unique niche. Car enthusiasts want 1999 model 3rd series BMWs, but most are worn out, so new ones would be extremely welcomed.

    Russia needs to build beautiful sports sedans for drifting, it has the ability and theres amassive demand.


    Also, if russia is building aurus cars without problem, then it has  domestically built ABS.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:58 pm

    LIMB,

    As a BMW F30 driver I've always thought my car was ugly, because it is, but that's nothing compared to all current BMW models - only the 5 and 8 series look decent. My car still has the main "ingredient" - a manual gearbox.
    My opinion is that automatic transmissions are for people who don't like to drive, don't enjoy driving, and as the world gets more and more spoiled - we're going to get cars with loads of LED displays and moving electrical boxes.
    In Germany, car testing is no longer as extensive as it used to be. The auto industry saves a lot, but they don't want to admit it, because now it's easier for them to insert a couple of LED displays into the cabin than to design new buttons and a new instrument cluster for each model - they insert a program into the LED display and everything is solved.
    And as the famous Chris Harris would say "I don't like SUVs"...
    And that's the point, because that Moskvitch is just another generic and boring vehicle in a row. When you open ads with used cars, the most expensive ones have been the ones with two doors and from prestigious brands for decades, right ?

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 27 Bmw-m310
    This is car (E46)

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    This is new crap
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    Post  kvs Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:41 pm

    There has been the usual 6th column spasm in Russia this time about the Moskvich venture with rebranded JAC models.   The thing is
    that these idiots and phonies do not admit that no country can bootstrap all new production of cars in a few months.   Moskvich was
    originally a Ford venture in the USSR and involved production of Ford models.   So exactly the same thing as with the JAC venture.  

    The main thing is that Russia has been pursuing a rational development model since Putin showed up.   In 2001 the pipe of foreign
    car imports into Russia was curtailed and foreign car makers had to open up local production.   Initially this was essentially kit assembly
    but by 2020 it involved localized production of parts.  Moskvich is not going remain a rebrand forever.  

    The official plan for the Moskvich production is to move to a Russian platform and components by 2025.

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    Post  Sprut-B Yesterday at 5:42 pm

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