Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+57
andalusia
Lennox
Daniel_Admassu
Mir
ALAMO
limb
Russian_Patriot_
lancelot
Backman
Kiko
LMFS
Scorpius
PhSt
dino00
marat
miketheterrible
Dima
Hole
PapaDragon
KiloGolf
Singular_Transform
JohninMK
Singular_trafo
Zivo
william.boutros
Book.
KoTeMoRe
Project Canada
Rmf
mutantsushi
Prince Darling
Svyatoslavich
higurashihougi
eehnie
Neutrality
macedonian
George1
flamming_python
Vann7
AbsoluteZero
kvs
GarryB
Werewolf
Mike E
sepheronx
KomissarBojanchev
Firebird
magnumcromagnon
gaurav
TheArmenian
AlfaT8
Viktor
Regular
Cyberspec
TR1
Austin
Sujoy
61 posters

    Russian Auto Industry

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 12987
    Points : 13134
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Kanada

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  kvs Wed May 18, 2022 4:06 pm

    Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
    It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
    "regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
    5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
    at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.

    GarryB, Mir and Broski like this post

    avatar
    Firebird


    Posts : 1332
    Points : 1364
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  Firebird Wed May 18, 2022 6:56 pm

    kvs wrote:Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.   The annual cosmetic redesign which serves no purpose is what drives the costs.
    It is a trick to make getting replacement parts expensive.  So everyone is supposed to keep their car for only 4 years.   Russia can
    "regress" to the actual good old days of the USSR.   Make the cars simpler and don't waste money on annual retooling.   Do it every
    5 years or even long.   The proles will have to lump it.   It is tiresome to listen to how the "consumers drive the market".   BS.  Look
    at mass media and entertainment.   The precious consumers eat the shit that they are dished out.

    Yeah I'm a big cynic of how Westerners are brainwashed into changing their car every 1 to 4 years.
    The new cars are no better than the old in many cases. Harder to fix. Poor quality trim.
    An obsession with "fuel economy".

    I looked at changing one of my cars. And then realised it hasn't actually improved in recent years.
    Put some aftermarket stuff on instead (satnav and media centre) which was better than BMW's own stuff.

    Even my mother who is old and not a car fanatic.. seems brainwashed into the "newer is better".

    People here seem to change cars for the same reason they change wallpaper. And its the taxpayer that funds massive factory retooling when a recession hits - because of crooked government lobbying.
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 7428
    Points : 7694
    Join date : 2009-08-05
    Age : 33
    Location : Canada

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  sepheronx Wed May 18, 2022 7:12 pm

    lancelot wrote:This is going to take a while to get going. I kind of expected it. Even if they license produce or make an old vehicle it might still take a couple years to get to production. In the long run they need a Russian vehicle design but that can come later. The design can be done in parallel with the initial construction. There is a bazillion of Chinese companies, which have zero exports in practice, which they can license technology and buy parts from. Each major region of China has like 2 or 3 car manufacturers. Probably two dozen car companies total. As China is opening up their market to foreign manufacturers, you can bet a lot of them will be soon going out of business, so Russia should take this god given chance I think.

    That is more or less what will be done. Licensed production of other vehicles under their own name. They may opt for doing Lada vehicles due to Lada still being popular. They also may opt for other Asian automobile brands.

    I know this will be an unpopular comment, but I would like them to work with Iran on their car brand Khodro.

    GarryB and lancelot like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1289
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2020-10-17

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  lancelot Wed May 18, 2022 9:54 pm

    Yes I think the most obvious choice is using a common platform with Lada and making their own shell that they then bolt on top of the common chassis.

    GarryB likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  GarryB Thu May 19, 2022 10:56 am

    Auto industry is extremely hard and competitive. It needs huge investments and return is usually over long term, if there's any, in the first place.
    GL to them

    That it certainly is so western car companies have done Russia an enormous favour by volunterily withdrawing from the Russian market leaving an enormous gap for Russian and Asian companies to fill.

    Maybe Russia can break out of the western racket.

    Very much agree. Cars should not be disposable consumer items like cell phones have become.

    Make the modular and upgradable and reliable and simple and easy to work on.

    I know this will be an unpopular comment, but I would like them to work with Iran on their car brand Khodro.

    Russia is turning away from the west... any non western car maker should get their attention and they should be prepared to work with anyone.

    Iran showed real talent and resourcefulness when the west cut them off in 1979, I have a lot of respect for what they have and can achieve... having a big friend would be good for them too.

    Yes I think the most obvious choice is using a common platform with Lada and making their own shell that they then bolt on top of the common chassis.

    With the electric motors being in the wheels and the lower body being the batteries for low cg, the idea of having different top shells you can attach to your "car" has been suggested for electric vehicles.

    You could spend most of the week in a small two seater to get you to work and home, while for the weekend a big SUV for off road and camping gear, or shopping. An 8 seat people mover chassis for the sports on the weekend too with the bigger shells having longer bodies with more batteries for the extra weight perhaps.
    caveat emptor
    caveat emptor


    Posts : 476
    Points : 478
    Join date : 2022-02-02
    Location : Murrica

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  caveat emptor Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:30 pm

    Interesting news about sanctioned Lada Granta. New cars will not have:
    ABS,
    engine will be Euro-2 instead of Euro-5,
    Airbag,
    navigation suite and entertainment system.
    It seems that there will be an uphill battle for localization or finding alternatives in the next few years.
    https://t.me/istorijaoruzijaZ/7130

    flamming_python and Broski like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1289
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2020-10-17

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:52 pm

    Some automakers in Russia already switched to Chinese suppliers. I would not be surprised if all these things were in the cars until the end of this year.
    Lada was attached to the French automaker Renault-Nissan alliance and that is why they stopped having access to these parts.
    The only reason they can even produce this model at all is that it was the last one Lada made which was all designed in Russia. Based on Russian vehicle platform.

    GarryB, flamming_python and Broski like this post

    avatar
    Gazputin


    Posts : 322
    Points : 322
    Join date : 2019-04-07

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty EU wankers

    Post  Gazputin Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:03 am

    who needs cars designed to meet "EU Standards" anyway ?
    set by a bunch of braindead cretins in Brussels who have zero idea of the consequences of their idiotic laws

    who the hell needs 27 airbags ?

    and IC engines .... to meet "environmental standards"
    you now have buzzy little quad cam 4-valve turbocharged engines that only produce torque between 4-5000 rpm
    and to keep the car actually moving at all and keep emissions low ....
    you then need an 8-speed gearbox to keep the engine in such a narrow rev range
    meanwhile you have exhaust emission sensors .... sensors every fn place
    for what ?

    for f..k sake I just drive my car to the supermarket most of the time ....

    that Lada sounds great to me
    get rid of all the wanky electronic crap
    get a good "old fashioned" 2-valve long stroke engine with nice low down torque
    and with a torquey engine - then you only need a simple easy to maintain 3-4 speed auto at most ....

    and here's the point
    to me it is utter madness to inflict an idiotic Brussels-spec car on regional Russia
    why the f..k would you want buzzy little shitboxes with 8-9 speed autos in rural and regional Russia ?
    you want nice simple robust cars ... easy to maintain

    Brussels and the EU are such a bunch of total dipsticks
    Russia should go its own way

    side story for you ....
    I went to Brussels once on business
    there are massive new suburbs of glistening new high rises for all the useless parasites there - as far as the eye can see
    big hotels and expensive restaurants everywhere
    and as I suspected before I walked inside my hotel that night ..... yep .... 2-3 high end hookers in the bar near the check-in counter
    I'd only been in the fn room for 5 minutes .... ( hadn't even opened my fn suitcase yet ) ....
    and I get a phone call from a sultry voice "heello darlink would you like to come play viz me ?"
    .... obviously the check-in counter girl gave my room number to her ... "spotter's fee"

    .... sums that place up perfectly






    GarryB, Scorpius and Broski like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1289
    Points : 1289
    Join date : 2020-10-17

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:19 am

    Airbag and ABS are important to reduce fatalities. I also cannot imagine going back to a car without power steering.
    But you are correct that the Euro emissions regulations are pretty much BS.
    The navigation and entertainment system is pretty much extra cost and people can just use their smartphone anyway.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 33549
    Points : 34063
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:48 am

    I totally agree gazputin... what is worse is that one of the european engine makers actually had emission control stuff built into their engine that neutered the engine when they were doing emissions testing, but kept it turned off most of the time to get the fuel economy and performance that was promised.

    It was VW I think but they were the ones that were caught... how likely is it that they are all doing something similar with their computer controlled engines...

    Russia should drop all the EU shit they put up with... when Russia turns the gas off eventually either because the EU shoots itself in its own foot or because Russia totally loses patience and realises there are other customers who are not such whiny bitches... and then they will reopen their coal mines and coal fired power generation and lets see how their emissions stack up.

    The core irony there is that if they just stuck to 10 or 15 year energy deals the price fluctuations now would not mean much and they could have put all the extra billions they are spending on killing more Russians in the Ukraine and also the higher price for energy on making solar and wind power generation better and more efficient... improved electric motors also means improved electric generators... some sort of carbon capture system you could attach to a tail pipe could have been developed too.

    Airbag and ABS are important to reduce fatalities.

    I think he means Russia needs to set its own standards and requirements based on Russian experience on Russian roads... things like emergency radios if you plan to drive down roads not often used in winter, and cars that are more cold resistent.

    All that lane holding stuff and the auto parking stuff is interesting and would be developed as part of automatically driven cars and vehicles and some people might benefit from these things, but better braking systems and airbags and seat belts of course would be part of their basic standard requirements I would expect.

    The rules should be about protecting the people of Russia rather than protecting the car makers.

    The same with rules regarding food production and the creation of medicines too... they should be about protecting the people, the consumer... not the companies that make stuff.

    Broski likes this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 12987
    Points : 13134
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Kanada

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  kvs Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:44 pm

    lancelot wrote:Airbag and ABS are important to reduce fatalities. I also cannot imagine going back to a car without power steering.
    But you are correct that the Euro emissions regulations are pretty much BS.
    The navigation and entertainment system is pretty much extra cost and people can just use their smartphone anyway.

    That is a straw man argument. Annual cosmetic change has zero to do with ABS, airbags and power steering. Technology
    arrives on a totally different (longer) time scale than market-tard and parts shortage rackets. The western car manufacturing
    model is a mafia one.

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    Gazputin


    Posts : 322
    Points : 322
    Join date : 2019-04-07

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty been reading up

    Post  Gazputin Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:38 am

    as you guys know by now I was in design and manufacturing for decades ...

    I've been having a close look at Russia's car industry (Lada) .... and you know they ain't that far behind at all
    (particularly if you ignore wanky EU regs)

    this is a very good little article it shows the platforms in the Lada/Renault camp ...

    https://zen.yandex.ru/media/proautobiz/avtovaz-postaviat-na-rossiiskie-relsy-kto-zaplatit-za-eto-628cb9ba2d486972bdedcd0e?&

    it is excellent you can see that Lada has 2x older tech .... knock em down simple platforms

    BAZ-118 - which the basic road going Granta sedan is built on
    BAZ-2121/2123 - this is the Niva and the recently restyled Lada Niva Travel ..... for off roaders essentially

    then they have this - more modern

    Lada B/C - this is the Vesta ....
    but it clearly is meant for "B" and "C" segment road cars
    this has nothing wrong with it at all .....
    it is essentially an update of the BAZ-118 ..... for road cars .... but in 2x segments

    the BO/Global is the Renault rework essentially of their own "Lada B/C"
    they reworked it to be able to do SUVs, cars and electric drives on the 1x platform
    so in reality it is a merger of the BAZ-118, BAZ 2121/3 and Lada B/C ....

    so if you fast forward to Lada's "Anti-Sanction" Action Plan

    first car they build ? ...... a Granta .... BAZ-118
    it will have electric windows and mirrors and power steering .....
    it will have a nice old-school long stroke engine
    it won't have air con as standard ..... or airbags

    already being built ...

    next vehicles ? next platform/s BAZ-2121/2123
    Lada Niva and Lada Niva Travel

    plan is July ..... same sort of spec as BAZ-118

    next the B/C stuff .... but they are hoping to have more electronics by then ..... later in 2022

    and btw the Renault BO ..... they mostly want to build the Sandero, Largus ..... and drop the other wanky models
    but these will require "cute" component sourcing as they are designed from the ground up on Renault platforms

    probably late 2022 - early 2023


    meanwhile Renault "agreement"
    the Sandero, Duster etc that were built at Moskvitch factory in Moscow on the Renault "BO" platform
    all tooling is being transferred to Togliatti
    this is exactly inline with the Renault strategy pre Ukraine
    move all Lada models to mirror Romanian Dacia models on the "BO" chassis
    "BO" chassis is leaving Moscow Moskvitch plant ....
    so Moskvitch will have to build a "lada" chassis car .... or probably do a Chinese SKD

    so the Lada B/C ..... all-rus

    3-4yrs from now They will release their own "BO" platform
    that is based on the Lada B/C ....
    and yes it will be ok for road, SUV and electric models

    ..... it all makes perfect sense

    and I think Moskvitch would probably like to go onto this new Rus platform
    currently it only does "Renault" BO platform stuff .... no "Lada"
    so they will need to switch almost everything ...
    but it might be easier to do a Chinese SKD instead for a few years ..... until the new platform ....

    probably what is happening is that this B/C platform rework
    if Renault want back in at Togliatti in 5-6 years as per agreement
    the Moskvitch factory in Moscow will use it exclusively

    .... it sure smells this way to me

    and this NAMI outfit ..... creating platforms and engines is not a huge challenge for them
    these guys are really smart .... they did the Aurus

    basically I think it is a done deal
    Moskvitch plant will be home of the 100% Russian car - on the "updated" B/C platform
    regardless of what Renault decides to do ....

    and that factory it will be replicated outside Moscow
    and if Renault don't want back in .... Togliatti will also go 100% Russian design















    ALAMO and PapaDragon like this post

    avatar
    Gazputin


    Posts : 322
    Points : 322
    Join date : 2019-04-07

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty how the car industry works

    Post  Gazputin Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:48 am

    I should have added this the other day ....

    A "platform" is expected and needs to last for at least 8 years - due to the huge capital cost in the factory
    the platform is the base and the central survival cell .... this includes the roof and your door openings
    due to the cost of this bit - you are "stuck" with the central structure for 8 years
    (you can do some stuff like do different door skins but not much else)

    so your platform ..... 8 years

    the other parts of your car are the front and rear crumple zones ..... behind the rear axle and in front of the front axle
    this is where the "styling updates" happen

    so first "update" is 2 years in ..... minor cosmetic changes
    generally minor badging - fiddling with grills and light fittings
    why do they do this ?
    to keep the "design" fresh .... but the main reason is really to get dealers to get older cars off their showroom floors
    and it also gives the chance for the "runout sale !"

    4 years in ....
    a bigger styling change ..... quite noticeable change to the styling and interior
    .... once again .... "runout sale !!!"
    get all the old stock off showroom floors
    and design-out any bad/hard to build bits etc that are causing warranty issues etc
    and here is where you may see the door skins reworked ....

    6 years in .....
    a minor styling update to your "4th year" restyle
    once again "runout sale !!!"
    this time there are usually lots of extras like better stereo etc as the design generally is getting a bit dated ....
    wanky names like "Anniversary Edition" ... etc

    8 years ..... new platform

    so my point here is .... which I apologise for not adding the other day

    when Lada/NAMI say they can do a new platform in 3-4 years
    its not as though every car manufacturer's platforms on the planet is anywhere near the "8 year" mark
    so they need to keep using their "old platform" .... for anything between 1-8 years
    as they have big sunk costs there

    so you start to see quite quickly that the Rus are probably mid-pack
    and given a clear go at it - having no international wankers sticking their noses in
    they can progress their design pretty quickly

    and having what looks like a pretty good Lada B/C platform to develop from
    and having already done a similar exercise on the Aurus range
    I think NAMI are going to surprise a lot of people ...

    they also have had a front row seat of the new Renault BO platform
    that can do road cars, SUVs and electrification option

    I think they are not "behind" at all - more like mid-pack ...





    GarryB and lancelot like this post

    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 762
    Points : 762
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 34

    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  Scorpius Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:47 am


    Jupiter-30 (KamAZ-6559) is an unmanned mining dump truck (land truck) with a lifting capacity of 30 tons and a gross weight of 50 tons. The width of the car is 3657 mm, height - 3500 mm.

    GarryB, kvs, owais.usmani and Broski like this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian Auto Industry - Page 25 Empty Re: Russian Auto Industry

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:43 am