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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

    I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

    A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

    Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:56 pm

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP

    For comprting against sweedish, german, french and now chinese and japanese subs on the export market they need a state of the art AIP system. That's the main goal.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:32 am

    GarryB wrote:I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves...

    Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?
    There has been some recent movement on actually progressing the AIP
    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7852p50-russian-air-independent-propulsion-aip-submarine-technology#270103
    But yeah there are some things about Russian military/spending decisions that are seemingly incomprehensible.


    The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
    If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:23 pm

    The problem with a nuclear battery is the types that are known produce really tiny amounts of energy using some rather dangerous & rare isotopes.
    If they have really got a practical nuclear cruise missile engine though it could be the necessary breakthrough & might be able to be reconfigured for a closed cycle 'AIP' that doesn't fry the crew.

    Well that is what I am thinking... in the 1990s they had nuclear power plants that were intended to power radar equipped satellites in a relatively low earth orbit... which meant they were not in stationary orbit so couldn't rely on solar panels for power so they developed these nuclear power cells they said would also be useful for planetary exploration. Something like 4-10 kilowatts, which I agree is not huge but it creates that level of power for about 13 years continuously which is pretty good... but the bonus is that it generates heat so in cold places like siberia or Mars or the Moon the cooling system can be used to heat a building or small complex as a by product of the power plant working, so the electricity is over and above that.

    These things are relatively small so you could put several on a small sub and when you are not moving around it can be charging batteries and running co2 scrubbers etc etc and running the electronics... and it is certainly a direction that could create some rather useful things... imagine a small compact power source you could put into an airship or an aircraft to power it for years...

    If the new engine is not some sort of ramjet engine then it could be useful for generating energy on a sub... the future of vehicle technology is electric, as electric motors become more powerful and more efficient vehicle designs are going to change from being centred around an internal combustion engine to all electric with options for electricity supply being plugged in like a battery. For large vehicles you have solar and of course compact gas turbine type energy generators for potential energy generation... note gas turbines in tanks are not very efficient because tanks are heavy and short distance acceleration and then stopping is not an efficient way to use a gas turbine. Gas turbines are better run at an efficient rpm and kept at that efficient speed to generate electricity which then runs electric motors to accelerate and drive the vehicle or charges batteries or capacitor banks for when large amounts of electricity are needed...

    Russia has nuclear subs

    Which are better than AIP

    But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power... Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:35 am

    GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

    If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
    Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
    They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
    A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

    10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

    And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
    Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:17 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

    Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

    If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
    Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
    They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
    A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

    10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

    And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
    Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.

    Russia have the nuclear core of the Poseidon, and the reactor of the Harmony network can be used as low power endurance increaser.

    But generally the non nuclear air independent propulsion has many drawbacks, and in many parameters inferior to the diesel subs.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:05 pm

    But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.

    But that is the problem smaller and cheaper is already available in the form of conventional subs... the AIP is intended to give the sub endurance comparable to nukes.

    For a submarine having continuous reliable electricity sources is all that matters... electric current separates the hydrogen from the oxygen in water so a continual supply of oxygen to breath and hydrogen to burn that is all you need... a diesel engine sized block of lithium ion batteries or better to replace the existing diesel engines... a tiny gas turbine that runs on hydrogen and a small 1MW nuclear battery as used with the Pereveset or whatever it is called...

    BTW one of the first nuclear power systems they developed for space was TOPAZ and to quote Wiki:

    The first TOPAZ reactor operated for 1,300 hours and then was shut down for detailed examination. It was capable of delivering 5 kW of power for 3–5 years from 12 kg (26 lb) of fuel. Reactor mass was ~ 320 kg (710 lb).

    First tested in 1971...

    Their current naval satellites of the Legenda family replacements should have something similar to power them...
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    Post  runaway on Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:20 am

    They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:39 pm

    runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

    I don't think they are doing that due to any deficiencies on Lada-class

    It was recently revealed that a lot of Soviet era Kilo subs are in very bad shape and not usable which means that they need even more replacements in short amount of time hence additional Kilo orders

    My guess is that they will keep ordering Kilos and Ladas in parallel until production rate of Lada-class reaches satisfactory levels

    At that point they will discontinue Kilos

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:48 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

    I don't think they are doing that due to any deficiencies on Lada-class

    It was recently revealed that a lot of Soviet era Kilo subs are in very bad shape and not usable which means that they need even more replacements in short amount of time hence additional Kilo orders

    My guess is that they will keep ordering Kilos and Ladas in parallel until production rate of Lada-class reaches satisfactory levels

    At that point they will discontinue Kilos

    I believe they will order some Ladas, but not as many as other projects. If they finish fixing their maturity problems they are better than kilos and allow also the use of a reduced crew, but not much better. In the meanwhile they realised that they can produce kilos at a very fast pace so if they want newly built diesel electric subs that are good enough in a short time they stick with them for the moment. The other issue for Lada is that when the last batch of kilos for the pacific fleet, and later baltic fleet as a replacement of the older generation kilos will be delivered there won't be a high need of newly built electric sub for a while...

    By the way, most probably the last three kilos for the Baltic fleet will be produced by the admiralty shipyard, however the shipyard in Nizhny Novgorod Krasnoye Sormovo announced that they will be ready to get back at building also subs and in particular expressed interest for the last batch of Kilos...
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    Post  runaway on Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:39 am

    Very true, if they have built so many new kilos in short time the Navy dont need any new SSKs for decades to come. Not in large numbers anyway, just the one of design to move evolution forward.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:32 pm

    If those kilos are replaceing kilos that needed urgent replacement then going forward they will need new SSKs so it makes sense to keep with the Lada plan.

    Very simply put the Lada offers the same or better fire power from a sub that is 500 tons lighter and with half the crew required to operate a Kilo.

    More importantly the sensors and systems are better so in almost every role it is rather better... why would you not want Lada subs?

    They make sense economically and militarily and logistically.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:23 am

    GarryB wrote:If those kilos are replaceing kilos that needed urgent replacement then going forward they will need new SSKs so it makes sense to keep with the Lada plan.

    Very simply put the Lada offers the same or better fire power from a sub that is 500 tons lighter and with half the crew required to operate a Kilo.

    More importantly the sensors and systems are better so in almost every role it is rather better... why would you not want Lada subs?

    They make sense economically and militarily and logistically.
    absolutely. The only issue is that if they replace most of the older kilos (project 877) with improved kilos (project 636.3) there will be less need for new subs for a while.

    If i am not mistaken there are about a dozen older kilo (built around 1990) still in service in the russian navy, between the pacific and the northern fleet.

    There are now 7 636.3 subs in service: 6 with the black sea
    Fleet while he pacific fleet already received 1 of their ordered 6 improved kilos, and there will be also an additional order of 3 subs for the baltic fleet.

    So, most probably after those they will start to order Lada class, but in slightly lower numbers  (e.g. 10 or 12).

    The oldest improved kilo in the black sea fleet is only 6 years old,  and we can expect it will stay in service for another 15 years at least, unless during a mid life overhaul they decide to turn it in an export version and sell it in order to be able to buy a more modern sub  for the russian navy.

    As i wrote before, my curiosity is to see if Krasnoye Sormovo shipyard will go back building subs as well.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:20 am

    As per SY press total 5 Lada class is under construction or signed for

    http://admship.ru/press/news/ao-admiralteyskie-verfi-podpisalo-kontrakt-na-stroitelstvo-dvukh-podvodnykh-lodok-proekta-677-lada/

    As part of the ARMY-2019 international military-technical forum in Moscow, a contract was signed between the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and Admiralty Shipyards JSC for the construction of two submarines of Project 677 Lada.

    The lead boat of the St. Petersburg series was transferred to the Navy in April 2010 and is currently in trial operation in the Northern Fleet. The submarine Kronstadt, the second in a series of project 677 Lada, was laid down in July 2005 and launched in September 2018. Today, the ship is completing the adjustment of systems and equipment, mooring tests have begun. The third order of the Velikiye Luki series, pledged in March 2015, is at the stage of block formation, loading and installation of large-sized equipment in regular places has begun.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:00 am

    For each Kilo they replace with a Lada class sub they will have almost half a crew spare, so making more Ladas makes sense in terms of bang for buck because extra subs improves performance too.
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    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:07 am

    Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm
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    Post  Austin on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:11 am

    Crouching hunter: why the Lada submarines are considered the best in the world

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201809271258-292n.htm


    Very good update by Vladimir Karnozov on Lada program , Interesting Lada tracked a Virginia Class SSN for many hours as the US submarine was trailing Russian Naval battle group in an exercise.

    Unknown to US submarine Lada class was keeping a tail on Russian Surface Ship Exercise and tracked Virginia class too.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:19 pm


    Submarine "St. Petersburg" (Lada-class lead ship) of the Northern Fleet is heading for modernization in Kronstadt

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/8180225
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:24 pm

    Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

    This article is dated 2018 scratch
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    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:36 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

    This article is dated 2018 scratch

    The information is upto date on Lada Class and details which is perhaps the best available in opensource.

    Lada is quite a sucessful program compared to what your average Western publication would lead you believe
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    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:39 am

    https://www.vayuaerospace.in/Issue/vayu-issue-Vayu-Issue-VI-Nov-Dec-2016.pdf

    Another nugget from same author while writing in an Indian Journal this is some where in late 2016 when Lada was under going trials and initial deployment.

    Project 677

    “Even though the Kilo-class has proved
    its merits, this design no longer represents
    our current vision of what a truly modern
    non-nuclear submarine should look like.
    Scientific and technical progress has come
    a long way since Project 877’s entry into
    service, stimulating further development
    of warships and other means of naval
    warfare.” Some time ago, Rubin’s team
    was challenged again, this time to develop a
    conventional boat of the fourth generation.
    It should differ from the previous generation
    in having a smaller displacement and yet
    higher combat efficiency. Such a ship has
    been developed, and is referred to as the
    Project 677 Lada.

    The lead ship of the class, designated
    Sankt Peterburg, was commissioned in 2010.
    It passed testing and is now completing
    operational trials with the Russian navy.
    Kormilitsin spoke about the current state
    of these trials:
    “After testing and initial operations in
    the Baltic, she made a successful ferry to the
    Arctic, and now operates with the Northern
    Fleet. A series of tests performed in Arctic
    waters last year proved our claim that the
    newer submarine’s noise level is several
    times less than that of previous generation
    boats. No one can detect her presence close
    by, while she can sense previous generation
    boats with ease. The Lada has a much more
    powerful sonar system than the Kilo-class.
    This sonar has no equal; so far no other
    country managed to produce anything
    that would compete with our sonar. This
    new sonar can sense diesel-electric boats
    of previous generation at a distance of
    several kilometres, and nuclear-powered
    boats, including those of foreign make, at a
    distance of several dozen kilometres.”

    “The lead ship of the Project 677
    Lada is about to complete operational
    trials with the Russian Navy. Sadly –
    and this happens quite often during
    development of advanced machinery – new
    technology does not receive proper and
    timely recognition. In the meantime, our
    new ship has been performing well and
    proving her merits every time she goes to
    sea. This design deserves mass production,
    so as to equip the Russian Navy, and the
    navies of our allies and friendly countries.
    My opinion is this: if a navy needs a potent
    hunter-killer, the Lada is the best candidate
    to fill such a role.”
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:46 am

    Stereotypes at play... westerners are conditioned to believe advertising slogans and image is everything, so when you call a submarine a Lada they immediately associate it with the type of Car because submarines and cars are totally the same thing.

    The lada car had a reputation for being simple and cheap... not amazingly reliable but from that era nothing was really reliable... even the expensive stylish stuff from Italy like Lambo and Ferrari...

    Westerners who don't know any better will assume a Lada sub is like a Lada car, which is absurd... the Lada sub is a huge improvement over a Kilo class which is already a rather good class of submarine... smaller and lighter with the same fire power or better fire power with vertical launch tubes added, and a 50% reduction in crew makes it an excellent submarine.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:53 am

    There are no VLS added to Lada yet but option provided to its export variant Amur 1650

    Interesting US now concedes East coast of US and Atlantic will be contested waters

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32087/admiral-warns-americas-east-coast-is-no-longer-a-safe-haven-thanks-to-russian-subs

    Sponsored content

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