Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

GarryB wrote:

Still trying to hook India into funding AIP development huh?

I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves... a working AIP that uses diesel fuel is revolutionary and vastly more useful than a standard system used elsewhere.... most ports on the planet already handle diesel fuel supplies to boats, while not very many at all are rigged up to provide hydrogen and oxygen to ships and subs at port.

A diesel AIP means fewer changes needed to subs and ports and the ability to operate in any port on the planet... (except airports and space ports of course) without modification or infrastructure upgrade.

Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

Russia has nuclear subs

Which are better than AIP

GarryB wrote:I don't understand why they don't fund this themselves...

Perhaps a nuclear battery might be simpler?

GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:But that is what I am saying... Russias expertise in nuclear technology should be expanded to render fuel cell technology redundant... they have made the necessary breakthroughs to effectively make uranium a recyclable fuel that they will have the working reactors to do the recycling with... now they need to expand into compact nuclear battery technology.... imagine a 1 square metre by 2 metre long nuclear battery that produces 5 MW for 20 years... for a large carrier like a CVN you might have 40 of these located around the ship providing local power to the network, but also to ensure any power cuts are gradual and not power or not power...  Much of the time many will be turned off, but when running at top speed and with the radars on and all the electronics working you have 90% of them on with the remaining 10% in reserve just in case. Your EMALS will have its own two or three, which should give plenty of reserve power, but all the power sources will be linked to a grid to share power throughout the ship... it means propulsion for the ship can be azipods and it will free up an enormous amount of space inside the vessel for other things because you wont need the three shafts minimum you would normally need taking up most of the bottom of the ship, and of course no huge nuclear reactors or gas turbines or large diesel engines... it would be revolutionary... an every five years or so you could replace half your batteries with new batteries that are smaller and lighter and 50% more powerful...

Diesel technology AIPs would be useful if they can make it work, but the future is probably not fossil fuels if we can help it.

If someone had such technology they would be trying it out by now. Currently nuclear batteries have a millionth of the energy output and density that you've pegged them to have.
Nuclear batteries are known for powering satellites on low output levels over long periods of time.
They are not known for powering aircraft carriers.
A 1 x 2 metre long nuclear battery would have an output of about 20 watts, not 5 megawatts; based on the figures given in this article - https://phys.org/news/2018-06-prototype-nuclear-battery-power.html

10 microwatts per cubic centimetre = 10,000,000 microwatts per cubic metre = 10 watts per cubic metre

And this is with a whole new type of nuclear battery, that's reportedly x10 as efficient as previous ones. Probably horribly heavy and horribly expensive too. We have a long way to go with this tech.

But what I'm thinking is that with talk of new minaturized nuclear reactors, which is a thing; we can have smaller and cheaper classes of nuclear submarines.
Would be good to find out more about the Burestvennik's power source too - but we can bet it's reliant on heating the air for propulsion; which isn't viable of course with subs.

runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

PapaDragon wrote:

runaway wrote:They are ordering a new 636.3 for BF instead of Lada, time to scrap the lada project.

I don't think they are doing that due to any deficiencies on Lada-class

It was recently revealed that a lot of Soviet era Kilo subs are in very bad shape and not usable which means that they need even more replacements in short amount of time hence additional Kilo orders

My guess is that they will keep ordering Kilos and Ladas in parallel until production rate of Lada-class reaches satisfactory levels

At that point they will discontinue Kilos

GarryB wrote:If those kilos are replaceing kilos that needed urgent replacement then going forward they will need new SSKs so it makes sense to keep with the Lada plan.

Very simply put the Lada offers the same or better fire power from a sub that is 500 tons lighter and with half the crew required to operate a Kilo.

More importantly the sensors and systems are better so in almost every role it is rather better... why would you not want Lada subs?

They make sense economically and militarily and logistically.

Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

Big_Gazza wrote:

Austin wrote:Russian Defense Ministry will receive 12 of the latest Lada submarines

https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201811271715-sjxz.htm

This article is dated 2018

“Even though the Kilo-class has proved
its merits, this design no longer represents
our current vision of what a truly modern
non-nuclear submarine should look like.
Scientific and technical progress has come
a long way since Project 877’s entry into
service, stimulating further development
of warships and other means of naval
warfare.” Some time ago, Rubin’s team
was challenged again, this time to develop a
conventional boat of the fourth generation.
It should differ from the previous generation
in having a smaller displacement and yet
higher combat efficiency. Such a ship has
been developed, and is referred to as the
Project 677 Lada.

The lead ship of the class, designated
Sankt Peterburg, was commissioned in 2010.
It passed testing and is now completing
operational trials with the Russian navy.
Kormilitsin spoke about the current state
of these trials:
“After testing and initial operations in
the Baltic, she made a successful ferry to the
Arctic, and now operates with the Northern
Fleet. A series of tests performed in Arctic
waters last year proved our claim that the
newer submarine’s noise level is several
times less than that of previous generation
boats. No one can detect her presence close
by, while she can sense previous generation
boats with ease. The Lada has a much more
powerful sonar system than the Kilo-class.
This sonar has no equal; so far no other
country managed to produce anything
that would compete with our sonar. This
new sonar can sense diesel-electric boats
of previous generation at a distance of
several kilometres, and nuclear-powered
boats, including those of foreign make, at a
distance of several dozen kilometres.”

“The lead ship of the Project 677
Lada is about to complete operational
trials with the Russian Navy. Sadly –
and this happens quite often during
development of advanced machinery – new
technology does not receive proper and
timely recognition. In the meantime, our
new ship has been performing well and
proving her merits every time she goes to
sea. This design deserves mass production,
so as to equip the Russian Navy, and the
navies of our allies and friendly countries.
My opinion is this: if a navy needs a potent
hunter-killer, the Lada is the best candidate
to fill such a role.”

franco wrote:The Russian Navy will receive two submarines of the Lada project in 2022

Two serial diesel-electric submarines of the fourth generation of Project 677 Lada - Kronstadt and Velikie Luki - will receive the Russian Navy in 2022, said Alexander Buzakov,

The submarines are the second and third in the project 677. The first in the project was the submarine "St. Petersburg" - it was transferred to the fleet for trial operation in 2010.

“The second, Kronstadt, is already afloat, the third, Velikiye Luki, will be launched in 2022. Kronstadt was delayed somewhat due to problems with contractors. But we plan to transfer both boats to the fleet in 2022, "Buzakov told RIA Novosti .

In September last year, the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Alexei Rakhmanov, announced the lag in the construction of two diesel-electric submarines of the fourth generation of Project 677 Lada due to problems with one of the equipment suppliers.

In this connection, it was decided to build for the Pacific Fleet six time-tested submarines of the 636 Varshavyanka project instead of the Lada submarines.

The first submarine of the Lada project, Saint Petersburg, was laid down in 1997 and launched in 2004. The submarine completed tests and entered trial operation in 2010.

Project 677 submarines (code Lada) are a series of Russian diesel-electric submarines developed at the Rubin Central Design Bureau.

The series is a development of project 877 "Halibut". Submarines are intended to destroy enemy submarines, surface ships and vessels, to protect naval bases, sea coast and sea communications, as well as to conduct reconnaissance.

Submarines with a displacement of 1.8 thousand tons are distinguished by a low noise level, can reach speeds of up to 21 knots and dive to a depth of 350 m.