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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

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    Arrow

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    Post  Arrow Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:26 am

    In the case of conventional submarines, the West, that is, Europe, is technologically ahead of Russia. So it is not that the West surpasses only in electronics.
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:15 pm

    Arrow wrote:In the case of conventional submarines, the West, that is, Europe, is technologically ahead of Russia.  So it is not that the West surpasses  only in electronics.

    They also ahead in price. Australia will pay more than 3 billion $ each submarine in the contract with France.

    Technologically speaking russian subs have kalibr missiles with nuk warheads. So they are better than anything west produces.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:16 pm

    But Europe does very well with conventional submarines. Russian convencional submarine are cheaper but offer much worse performance.
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:23 pm

    Arrow wrote:But Europe does very well with conventional submarines. Russian convencional submarine are cheaper but offer much worse performance.

    How do you know that ? NATO couldn't track improved kilo in the mediteranean sea. Only when it was surfaced.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:25 pm

    I think the best conventional subs now are probably the Japanese. But how much power does an AIP sub need to operate, assuming it also has a large battery so it can sprint if needed? I have always wondered how small a nuclear reactor be? I think if you can produce 1MW it would be better then an AIP reactor.
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    Post  Isos Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:55 pm

    They have nuk reactor on a missile and on a big torpedo. But that's not the point.

    Diesel sub are ment to operate around your waters so they don't need to run or chase anything, only sneak in or wait for the enemy.

    Japanese are very hood like the other sub out there but they lack very long range cruise missiles. I would rather buy an old kilo with 2500km kalibr than a new japanese with standard torpedos.

    Then training is also very important. A good trained crew on an old kilo will be better than a japanese sub's crew that spend most of its time at port. Submarine warfare also depend on external environement, data about the terrain is crucial. Russia has a huge database thanks to the USSR subs experiences.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:30 am

    There are plans to lay down two Ladas in 2022, but i very much doubt it. I still think the Ladas are a fiasco as the project has been active since 2004 and has been prone to failure after failure and redesigns.

    What is this with the irrational hatred for this sub?

    The purpose of a new design is to improve on what they have already... the developed and built a Lada class submarine and when they tested it it was not as good as they had hoped or planned, so the other two Lada class subs that had been laid down were put on hold while the first vessel was fully tested and existing equipment was improved or replaced to try to get the level of performance they wanted.

    Once the issues with the first sub were sorted the solutions were applied to the next two subs that had been laid down.

    It is a whole new generation of submarine, ahead of the Kilos which have also been enhanced no doubt with the new systems and equipment developed for the Lada class.

    The original plans for the Lada were clearly too ambitious... what you describe as a failure is amusing... it didn't pass the test... but there is a difference between a test to count how many fingers you have on one hand in Kindygarten and a fourth year physics test question worth 50% of your final exam mark.

    Failing the first I would agree is a failure, but not quite getting a good enough mark in the latter is a different thing... for all we know they might have come very close to accepting the performance, and then decided they had Kilos in production any way so lets take the time and spend the money and get the damn thing right before we put it into mass production.

    I would suspect if it was worse than a Kilo class then they would have scrubbed it straight away, but it clearly shows promise because they are using it.

    From what I understand they have put the sort of sonar normally used on state of the art SSNs which is an enormous step up from what they put in SSKs generally, plus it is several hundred tons lighter than a Kilo class with half the crew size and actually more firepower... but you call it a failure.

    [quoteI think they should concentrate on the Kalina project, and in the meantime order 636.3 subs.[/quote]

    But who is to say they wont have problems with that project too and they are left with operating cold war era Kilo class subs?

    The fact that they still doesnt have a working AIP in either the Kilos or Ladas is mindboggling, to say the least. Sweden had their first AIP operating sub in 1988. I write it again, 1988.

    The Swedish shipbuilder Kockums constructed three Gotland-class submarines for the Swedish Navy that are fitted with an auxiliary Stirling engine that burns liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to drive 75 kW electrical generators for either propulsion or charging batteries. The endurance of the 1,500-tonne boats is around 14 days at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h).

    And if they wanted a shit sub then they could have copied it and you would be complaining about something else.

    The AIP is the problem but their AIP is revolutionary... it uses diesel fuel to generate hydrogen gas with solid carbon as a byproduct with a fuel cell that reportedly generates 300kW. This would mean it does not need hydrogen transport and delivery infrastructure in any of the ports it operates from... most ports have diesel delivery to the pier.

    The fact that it is taking longer than expected to get to service is perfectly understandable... but lets continue the comparison... how many 2,500km range land attack cruise missiles does this Swedish sub carry? How about supersonic ballistic rockets that deliver an anti sub torpedos to 50km range in less than 2 minutes?

    The new Swedish Blekinge-class submarine has the Stirling AIP system as its main energy source. The submerged endurance will be more than 18 days at 5 knots using AIP.

    A diesel fuel AIP could use the fuel intended for the diesel engines for the entire operation of the Lada sub...

    Realize that both the Lada and Kilo is totally outclassed in endurance term, which makes them alot easier to detect and destroy.

    You think endurance is survival?

    Stirling AIP systems generate a lot of heat and in Swedish waters a heat trail leads you right to the submerged submarine... you do understand hot water rises... and leaves a heat trail on the surface... do you not understand the Soviets experimented with Stirling engines... the concept of Stirling engines is about 200 years old.

    Hopefully the russian AIP can be retrofitted to both Kilos and Ladas, when its finaly ready, when that may be is an open question.

    When it is ready obviously... you do understand Kilos and Ladas are good subs even without AIP systems?


    AIP general info
    The main reason behind adopting AIP systems is to increase a submarine's stealth by eliminating noisy snorkelling and remaining in contact with the atmosphere. The benefits of added stealth outweigh the increased cost of the submarine over its life cycle, stringent requirements for the infrastructure and crew training.

    Having a quiet sub is really nice but a sub that never opens fire is bloody useless, and as soon as it launches a weapon... it is not quiet anymore... torpedoes and missiles don't just appear from nowhere.

    From both a theoretical and practical point of view, it is clear that none of today's AIP plant types are ideal in all respect; each has its merits and drawbacks. Besides, none of the navies have similar conditions. Each navy performs its tasks, operates in different geographical zones, and has varied level of crew training and conditions at naval bases.

    The system the Russians are working on extracts the hydrogen gas from diesel fuel with the carbon being released as a solid instead of a gas (CO or CO2... ie carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide).

    The potential to get hydrogen from diesel without the toxic release of carbon gas is revolutionary for hydrogen powered vehicles and vessels... it is vastly easier to carry enormous amounts of hydrogen gas in the form of Kerosene for instance in liquid form, and then when ready to use it separate the hydrogen from the solid carbon that you could store and use for producing carbon nanotubes, than it is to carry hydrogen gas either under enormous pressure or extreme cold temperatures...

    Irrespective of all theoretical diversity of possible AIP types, the experience of recent years has shown that only two types of AIP systems are in demand in the market - Stirling AIP system and fuel cell AIP system. As for the closed cycle steam turbine MESMA, it has shown its practicality but has remained a niche product. Other exotic types of AIP plants have also remained on paper or in laboratories.

    You don't even know how this new Russian AIP works and you write it off... like you write off all their work on the Lada class as a failure... I am guessing you have never worked in product development...

    In the case of conventional submarines, the West, that is, Europe, is technologically ahead of Russia. So it is not that the West surpasses only in electronics.

    Interesting assertion.... can you back it up?

    But Europe does very well with conventional submarines. Russian convencional submarine are cheaper but offer much worse performance.

    Based on what exactly? Australia buying French subs instead of Japanese ones is interesting, but they would never have considered a Russian sub to begin with so the choice is meaningless in that sense.

    I think the best conventional subs now are probably the Japanese.

    Even the Aussies don't agree....

    But how much power does an AIP sub need to operate, assuming it also has a large battery so it can sprint if needed?

    A Hydrogen fuel cell is a cross between an engine and a battery... it uses fuel like an engine but the process is fully chemical like a battery.

    A fuel cell is a very compact thing and you can pack a lot of them into a very small space...

    I have always wondered how small a nuclear reactor be? I think if you can produce 1MW it would be better then an AIP reactor.

    I agree, but people who pretend to know better come up with all sorts of reasons for it not to work.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:43 am

    GarryB wrote:

    I think the best conventional subs now are probably the Japanese.

    Even the Aussies don't agree....


    Well they built the Collins class so they don't exactly have a great deal of credibility, besides they bought a paper sub so my comment still stands.
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    Post  runaway Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:55 pm

    I have missed these discussions, so i happily give my opnions about the Kilo, Lada submarines. For your knowledge i consider the russian submarines to be among the very best in the world, only in AIP they are behind, so they are losing many export orders. The 677 Lada class however...

    GarryB wrote:
    There are plans to lay down two Ladas in 2022, but i very much doubt it. I still think the Ladas are a fiasco as the project has been active since 2004 and has been prone to failure after failure and redesigns.

    What is this with the irrational hatred for this sub?

    The purpose of a new design is to improve on what they have already... the developed and built a Lada class submarine and when they tested it it was not as good as they had hoped or planned, so the other two Lada class subs that had been laid down were put on hold while the first vessel was fully tested and existing equipment was improved or replaced to try to get the level of performance they wanted.

    Once the issues with the first sub were sorted the solutions were applied to the next two subs that had been laid down.

    It is a whole new generation of submarine, ahead of the Kilos which have also been enhanced no doubt with the new systems and equipment developed for the Lada class.

    The original plans for the Lada were clearly too ambitious... what you describe as a failure is amusing... it didn't pass the test... but there is a difference between a test to count how many fingers you have on one hand in Kindygarten and a fourth year physics test question worth 50% of your final exam mark.

    Failing the first I would agree is a failure, but not quite getting a good enough mark in the latter is a different thing... for all we know they might have come very close to accepting the performance, and then decided they had Kilos in production any way so lets take the time and spend the money and get the damn thing right before we put it into mass production.

    I would suspect if it was worse than a Kilo class then they would have scrubbed it straight away, but it clearly shows promise because they are using it.

    From what I understand they have put the sort of sonar normally used on state of the art SSNs which is an enormous step up from what they put in SSKs generally, plus it is several hundred tons lighter than a Kilo class with half the crew size and actually more firepower... but you call it a failure.

    Its no hatred towards the 677 class, only a opinion that this monohull project has been a costly failure. Better to cut losses, learn what you can about the mistakes and move along with other projects. The sonar and other equipment are not 677 specific, so they can be used in Kalinas for example.
    But the Kalinas is bound to have working AIP, otherwise its no point in building it as the Kilos is still a very good submarine.


    The fact that they still doesnt have a working AIP in either the Kilos or Ladas is mindboggling, to say the least. Sweden had their first AIP operating sub in 1988. I write it again, 1988.

    The Swedish shipbuilder Kockums constructed three Gotland-class submarines for the Swedish Navy that are fitted with an auxiliary Stirling engine that burns liquid oxygen and diesel fuel to drive 75 kW electrical generators for either propulsion or charging batteries. The endurance of the 1,500-tonne boats is around 14 days at 5 kn (5.8 mph; 9.3 km/h).


    I And if they wanted a shit sub then they could have copied it and you would be complaining about something else.

    In what way do you consider the Gotland class subs "shitsubs"?
    I will remind you that one of these "shitsubs" were used in training against US carrier battle groups in 2004.

    n 2004, the Swedish government received a request from the United States to lease HSwMS Gotland – Swedish-flagged, commanded and manned, for a duration of one year for use in antisubmarine warfare exercises. The Swedish government granted this request in October 2004, with both navies signing a memorandum of understanding on 21 March 2005.[5][6] The lease was extended for another 12 months in 2006.[7][8][9] In July 2007, HSwMS Gotland departed San Diego for Sweden.[10]

    HSwMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean[when?], effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.[11] The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking.





    You think endurance is survival?

    Yes the undurance to lay still at bottom and not need to snorkle is very important to avoid detection. I am very surprised you dont agree with such a basic for submarines.



    When it is ready obviously... you do understand Kilos and Ladas are good subs even without AIP systems?

    Yes the Kilos are very good subs, it would be even better with AIP. The Ladas has so far been a failure, no doubt about that.


    Having a quiet sub is really nice but a sub that never opens fire is bloody useless, and as soon as it launches a weapon... it is not quiet anymore... torpedoes and missiles don't just appear from nowhere.

    Agree, however its vital to be undetected to be able to launch your weapons. And after launch its critical to be able to sneak away, and not need to snorkle each other day. As already said, with AIP you can stay deep under water layers for weeks without need to snorkle.
    And to be correct, launching a quite torpedo doesnt mean you are detected straight away as you are when firing a missile.


    You don't even know how this new Russian AIP works and you write it off... like you write off all their work on the Lada class as a failure... I am guessing you have never worked in product development...

    I dont write the russian AIP off, i am poiting to the fact that they dont have a working AIP for their submarines, leaving them way behind in endurance and makes them lagging behind on the export market.

    Last, you were very critical to Swedish subs for their lack of advanced weapons like the Kalibr for example.
    Well to a certain degree that is right, but you have to remember that the swedish navy dont intend to use their submarines the way russia does.
    Sweden have no need to attack other countries bases or ports from submarines, thats a task for the airforce.

    The main task for swedish submarines is intelligance gathering and to sink transport ships in the case of an invasion, and their long range torpedoes is perfectly for that. Also unlike firing a missile, firing a torpedo doesnt mean you are detected straight away.

    Now some news, The Polish Navy is to acquire submarines from Sweden, massively increasing its capabilities. The two Södermanland Class subs are currently in service with the Swedish Navy. These submarine come with Air Independent Power (AIP, aka Air Independent Propulsion), which will itself be a big leap for the Polish submarine force.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:22 pm

    What is typical AIP endurance? I was reading the Soryu class can travel 6100 miles in AIP mode, which is pretty incredible actually.

    Swedish weapons are typically very high quality and efficient. They are optimized for Swedish needs, sometimes these needs are hinderence to export and sometimes they are a benefit. But they are very cleverly conceived.
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    Post  runaway Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:34 pm

    Ten countries are currently building AIP submarines as of 2020, while twenty countries operate them.
    Russia is not among them, which is surprising and almost shameful to russian shipbuilding.

    I would say that typical aip endurance is between 14-20 days at 5 knots. In a non aip submarine its 2-3 days.
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:40 pm

    runaway wrote:Ten countries are currently building AIP submarines as of 2020, while twenty countries operate them.
    Russia is not among them, which is surprising and almost shameful to russian shipbuilding.

    I would say that typical aip endurance is between 14-20 days at 5 knots. In a non aip submarine its 2-3 days.

    Russia is building 10 Yasen submarines. Something those 10 countries can only dream of.

    It's like wondering why they don't produce t-72 while they produce t-14.

    They have no real need for AIP. They have nuclear subs for long range missions. For the rest, normal diesel subs are good enough.

    Only advantage for them with AIP would be to offer it for export models to compete with other designs.

    Also, there are different models of AIP. The most common being just to stock Oxygene in a tank which extremly dangerous and not worth the risk.


    Russian subs offers the use of kalibr missile which is something other subs don't allow. They are a game changer. Russian subs will mainly be used to fire kalibr or tzirkon hundreds km away. Other subs have weapons with a range of 100km max.

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:58 pm

    mnztr wrote:What is typical AIP endurance? I was reading the Soryu class can travel 6100 miles in AIP mode, which is pretty incredible actually.

    Swedish weapons are typically very high quality and efficient. They are optimized for Swedish needs, sometimes these needs are hinderence to export and sometimes they are a benefit. But they are very cleverly conceived.

    Even more incredible is the Soryu getting blindsided by yet another cargo ship - what did they blow all the budget on the AIP and only had loose change for the sonar left? Methinks the vaunted qualitative advantages of the Japanese don't hold much water when the actual meets the hype.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:01 pm

    lyle6 wrote:

    Even more incredible is the Soryu getting blindsided by yet another cargo ship - what did they blow all the budget on the AIP and only had loose change for the sonar left? Methinks the vaunted qualitative advantages of the Japanese don't hold much water when the actual meets the hype.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submarine_incidents_since_2000

    submarine collisions are not exacty rare.
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    Post  runaway Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:29 pm

    Isos wrote:
    runaway wrote:Ten countries are currently building AIP submarines as of 2020, while twenty countries operate them.
    Russia is not among them, which is surprising and almost shameful to russian shipbuilding.

    I would say that typical aip endurance is between 14-20 days at 5 knots. In a non aip submarine its 2-3 days.

    Russia is building 10 Yasen submarines. Something those 10 countries can only dream of.

    It's like wondering why they don't produce t-72 while they produce t-14.

    They have no real need for AIP. They have nuclear subs for long range missions. For the rest, normal diesel subs are good enough.

    Only advantage for them with AIP would be to offer it for export models to compete with other designs.

    Also, there are different models of AIP. The most common being just to stock Oxygene in a tank which extremly dangerous and not worth the risk.


    Russian subs offers the use of kalibr missile which is something other subs don't allow. They are a game changer. Russian subs will mainly be used to fire kalibr or tzirkon hundreds km away. Other subs have weapons with a range of 100km max.

    Agree the Yasen is incredibly, but your analog is faulty, they ARE building T72s as well as T14s. I mean they are building both Kilo and Ladas and Yasen and Boreis.
    However, the SSKs is intended for coastal areas and limited sea areas, the SSN for the open oceans.
    When you ARE building Kilo/Ladas it makes sense to make them as good as possible, and ... they dont reach up to interational standard. Yes weapons and sonar are top best, but without AIP they lack are VERY crucial part.

    They are losing export orders to China, which builds a Kilo clone but with an AIP. They recently lost a big order to India as well as Pakistan and others are to follow.

    It just dont make any sense to build BOTH Kilos AND Ladas, but with no AIP on Lada. The Kilos is very good, no need for Ladas actually. What they need, and urgently is a AIP boat.
    I earlier wrote sweden came with the AIP 1988, thats 31 years ago.
    Today when stealth is of outmost importance AIP is critical to stay stealthy.

    The rest of the naval world is disagree with you that "normal" subs are "good enough". Thats a stupid commentary.

    About Japans boat colliding with a cargo ship, yep thats no good but dont blame it on the sub, blame it on the crew. Remember the US surface fleet has a many collisions in late years, and Norway even got a frigate sunk in a collision. In all those cases, crew is to blame.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:47 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Russia is building 10 Yasen submarines. Something those 10 countries can only dream of.

    It's like wondering why they don't produce t-72 while they produce t-14.


    In some cases I agree with you. When AIP are used for littoral and defence and cen be delivered at a low cost it makes sense. But when you have Australia spending 3B/boat for some sort of long range AIP sub when nuclear makes FAR more sense for them, then it becomes absurd. The Japanese should also build nuclear subs since they have nuclear plants I do not understand their aversion to nuclear subs. Perhaps their constitutional prohibition on nuclear weapons prevents this. As far as Russian submarine weapons go I would say they seem to have the most formidable range of weapons that can be deployed from submarines. I would like to see them develop a super long range electric torpedo but I think they are working on it. Having a torpedo able to swim out from a tube and approach at low speed is a really great thing. The sub will be long gone when it strikes.Poseidon could be this weapon, it has so many potential uses.
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    Post  Isos Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:37 pm

    Agree the Yasen is incredibly, but your analog is faulty, they ARE building T72s as well as T14s. I mean they are building both Kilo and Ladas and Yasen and Boreis.

    They don't build t-72 anymore. Only upgrade old one because they are GOOD ENOUGH.

    T-14 is the best and for the elit units.

    Same, why would they build AIP when they have nuk subs that are ten times better and kilo class being good enough for coastal areas ? There is no need.

    When you ARE building Kilo/Ladas it makes sense to make them as good as possible, and ... they dont reach up to interational standard. Yes weapons and sonar are top best, but without AIP they lack are VERY crucial part.

    They are good. They don't need AIP. AIP is not crucial. They have operated such ships for 80 years.

    Nuclear subs offers best AIP possible. And they are just expensive as western AIP subs.

    They are losing export orders to China, which builds a Kilo clone but with an AIP. They recently lost a big order to India as well as Pakistan and others are to follow.

    That's what I said. AIP is needed for export versions. Pakistani would never buy Russian subs anyway. India always buy half russian half european.

    Chinese AIP os a tank of Oxygen that can destroy the sub if there is a leak of water inside. I would never go inside one of them.


    It just dont make any sense to build BOTH Kilos AND Ladas, but with no AIP on Lada. The Kilos is very good, no need for Ladas actually. What they need, and urgently is a AIP boat.
    I earlier wrote sweden came with the AIP 1988, thats 31 years ago.

    Lada is a soviet project abd is better suited for baltic sea. That's why they build it.

    Sweeden subs would be dead meat because russians/soviets would have full air superiority and destroy them the first day. With AIP they could only hide a little longer but that won't change anything.

    They are making them expensive for no reason. They just sve money and build only coast guard ships because they will loose any way with Russia.

    The rest of the naval world is disagree with you that "normal" subs are "good enough". Thats a stupid commentary.

    Lol. Most of the stuff used in military is 2 or 3 generations old. They don't replace them because they are good enough and new stuff is just too expensive.

    AIP just adds some time under water. That doesn't change the diesel sub. It stays the same with a "battery" that runs more than the old ones. You still need to recharge them.

    I think you have no idea what AIP means.
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    Post  runaway Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:36 am

    Its like talking to a 10 year old... you simple dont understand.


    They don't build t-72 anymore. Only upgrade old one because they are GOOD ENOUGH.

    T-14 is the best and for the elit units.

    They DO build both Kilos and Lada togehter with Yasens, you dont understand what iam talking about. T14 is very expensive, and only has started production, until it has seen combat there is no way to really evalute the tank.


    Same, why would they build AIP when they have nuk subs that are ten times better and kilo class being good enough for coastal areas ? There is no need.  

    Why indeed to they build SSKs, Why not build 100 yasen?



    They are good. They don't need AIP. AIP is not crucial. They have operated such ships for 80 years.

    Nuclear subs offers best AIP possible. And they are just expensive as western AIP subs.

    Wow so they dont need AIP and have operated without 80 years... just listen to yourself.
    Wrong again, a diesel-electric AIP submarine is 5 times less the price of a virgina SSN. And then we are only talking about price per sub not maintaince and training and the whole nuclear deal.



    Chinese AIP os a tank of Oxygen that can destroy the sub if there is a leak of water inside. I would never go inside one of them.

    Probably they explodes each other day... warships are just soo dangerous.




    Sweeden subs would be dead meat because russians/soviets would have full air superiority and destroy them the first day. With AIP they could only hide a little longer but that won't change anything.

    So why bother building anything if the mighty russian airforce will destroy everything the first day?


    They are making them expensive for no reason. They just sve money and build only coast guard ships because they will loose any way with Russia.  

    Of course, no reason to make them expensive, building modern AIP submarines is so cheap...


    Lol. Most of the stuff used in military is 2 or 3 generations old. They don't replace them because they are good enough and new stuff is just too expensive.

    AIP just adds some time under water. That doesn't change the diesel sub. It stays the same with a "battery" that runs more than the old ones. You still need to recharge them.

    I think you have no idea what AIP means.

    "AIP doesnt change the diesel sub". That the most insane and stupid thing i have ever heard. AIP makes a diesel sub almost as good as a nuclear sub, for a fraction of the price. Diesel subs are more stealthy and more quite, only thing they cant compete with is speed.

    You obviously dont understand what the big deal with AIP is, or why Kilos and Ladas is lagging behind in this crucial technology. I guess the 10 countries that builds them and the 20 that operates AIP subs are just stupid and not as smart and bright as you.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 14, 2021 9:50 am

    Well they built the Collins class so they don't exactly have a great deal of credibility, besides they bought a paper sub so my comment still stands.

    I would say their experience of building their own SSK and then testing subs from Germany and France and Japan probably makes them the experts in regard to evaluating western conventional sub designs.


    The specifically want long range submarines so their choices were reduced to the Japanese Soryu class, the German Type 216, and a French evolution of SSN Barracuda.

    Nothing Russian would even enter consideration no matter what its performance.

    Their US ties would push them to the Japanese option, but they are clearly looking at the French sub.

    For your knowledge i consider the russian submarines to be among the very best in the world, only in AIP they are behind, so they are losing many export orders.

    Yes, I have had similar discussions with people who think a fighter plane is not a fighter plane if it does not have an AESA radar... it is hard to understand how fighter planes of the past managed to do their jobs without AESA radar.... and it is tough to fathom how SSKs manage to operate successfully without this magical AIP.

    Its no hatred towards the 677 class, only a opinion that this monohull project has been a costly failure. Better to cut losses, learn what you can about the mistakes and move along with other projects. The sonar and other equipment are not 677 specific, so they can be used in Kalinas for example.

    I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of the Russian MIC is complete, but cancelling the project and cutting their losses has always been an option... an option they have not elected to implement.

    They have Kilos in production and service so there is no urgency for mass production of replacement boats... maybe they don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

    Is your ego so big you ignore the facts?

    And if the Ladas were a useless dead end what hope can we hold for the Kalinas?

    Kalinas are concept boats.... I doubt they could be started now or in the next 4-5 years.

    But the Kalinas is bound to have working AIP, otherwise its no point in building it as the Kilos is still a very good submarine.

    Kalinas will be 5-10 years away so yes... they probably should have AIP propulsion.

    In what way do you consider the Gotland class subs "shitsubs"?

    Coastal short range subs... it needed a refit to operate in warmer waters... and after the complaints about Soviet and Russian torpedos using H2O2 hydrogen peroxide fuel, to have a sub with a liquid oxygen tank is downright amusing...

    I will remind you that one of these "shitsubs" were used in training against US carrier battle groups in 2004.

    Oh... well they must be the most amazing subs on the planet then if the US trains against them.... Rolling Eyes

    HSwMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean[when?], effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.[11]


    Jesus... now that is a fucking camera... but seriously so what?

    I realise low noise performance of diesel electric subs is a bit of a revelation for the all nuke US fleet, but that is not out of the ordinary performance... Kilos have done the same...

    The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking.

    Key point there... the problem is against all SSKs and not just this one small short ranged type.

    Yes the undurance to lay still at bottom and not need to snorkle is very important to avoid detection. I am very surprised you dont agree with such a basic for submarines.

    Russia has too much coast to cover to waste time sitting on the bottom... they have mines that can do that.

    Yes the Kilos are very good subs, it would be even better with AIP. The Ladas has so far been a failure, no doubt about that.

    Their primary rival is the US and they are already good enough against them. The Lada is a smaller lighter sub with similar range and speed that is much quieter and has as good or better armament and half the crew size... call it anything you like.

    [quoteAgree, however its vital to be undetected to be able to launch your weapons. And after launch its critical to be able to sneak away, and not need to snorkle each other day.[/quote]

    Kilo class subs have surfaced amongst groups of HATO ships... up until they surfaced they were undetected... sounds good enough to me.

    Attacking a target does not take weeks.

    SSKs have been attacking targets and sneaking away without having to immediately snorkel for quite some time.

    As already said, with AIP you can stay deep under water layers for weeks without need to snorkle.

    Actually that is wrong... some AIPs don't work at extreme depths... the processes that make them work don't work at high pressures.

    And to be correct, launching a quite torpedo doesnt mean you are detected straight away as you are when firing a missile.

    Modern sonars can detect a flooding torpedo tube and outer doors being opened... let alone several tons of torpedo being blown out a tube with compressed air.

    I dont write the russian AIP off, i am poiting to the fact that they dont have a working AIP for their submarines, leaving them way behind in endurance and makes them lagging behind on the export market.

    They are trying to create an AIP that will be a new generation, and it is taking longer than they expected... but half the market would never consider a Russian submarine anyway so that is not of huge importance anyway... and to be honest I rather doubt they will hand out this new AIP technology to just anyone... it is ground breaking... the biggest hurdle to hydrogen fuel cells is storing and using hydrogen gas... it is a total pain in the ass... it does not turn to liquid without getting very close to absolute zero which would be so impractical to be considered impossible, and when highly compressed it is dangerous and requires enormous pressure containers.

    Last, you were very critical to Swedish subs for their lack of advanced weapons like the Kalibr for example.
    Well to a certain degree that is right, but you have to remember that the swedish navy dont intend to use their submarines the way russia does.
    Sweden have no need to attack other countries bases or ports from submarines, thats a task for the airforce.

    Russia has nuclear powered submarines and don't need their conventional subs to spend weeks sitting in one spot all silent like either.

    What is typical AIP endurance? I was reading the Soryu class can travel 6100 miles in AIP mode, which is pretty incredible actually.

    The latest Soryu class sub replaced its lead batteries with Lithium Ion batteries... and they also replace their Stirling engines and extra fuel and oxygen tanks for those engines with even more Li-Ion batteries because Li-Ion batteries are more efficient... and less complicated than having two different fuel burning engines and batteries on board the sub.

    Russia is not among them, which is surprising and almost shameful to russian shipbuilding.

    Russia has nuclear powered subs. They are working on better AIPs than those used by anyone else.

    How quiet does a Kilo class have to be to get 1,000km away from a US carrier group to launch a Zircon hypersonic anti ship missile?

    The most common being just to stock Oxygene in a tank which extremly dangerous and not worth the risk.

    The Stirling engine is 200 years old... there are pretty clear and good reasons why it has not been widely used in the past for submarines.

    The newest Japanese sub replaces its Stirling engine and fuel tank and oxygen tank with extra high capacity batteries.

    they ARE building T72s as well as T14s.

    They are upgrading existing T-72s, they are not making new ones.

    However, the SSKs is intended for coastal areas and limited sea areas, the SSN for the open oceans.

    The Kilos and Ladas are not short range subs.

    When you ARE building Kilo/Ladas it makes sense to make them as good as possible, and ... they dont reach up to interational standard.

    Why do you think putting AIP systems that are clearly not ready yet in these subs would make them better?

    Are you an idiot?

    How to destroy a reputation... use the Microsoft method of beta testing.... let the customers sort out the problems for us.

    Yes weapons and sonar are top best, but without AIP they lack are VERY crucial part.

    Batteries are air independent propulsion.... replacing their lead batteries with Lithium Ion batteries would give them weeks on battery only power... the Japanese have already done it... it replaced the Stirling engine it had and the fuel tanks for that engine and the oxygen tank it needed to run that engine with batteries...

    They are losing export orders to China, which builds a Kilo clone but with an AIP. They recently lost a big order to India as well as Pakistan and others are to follow.

    Boo hoo... is this about your ego?

    You want people to die because a faulty AIP not ready for service is put on a ship to get a sale?

    It just dont make any sense to build BOTH Kilos AND Ladas, but with no AIP on Lada.

    Kilos are in production and the new sensors and equipment fitted to them they are still very good boats.

    There is no point mass producing Ladas because they might need to make some further important changes to the design to get them where they want them to be.

    It isn't rocket science.

    The Kilos is very good, no need for Ladas actually. What they need, and urgently is a AIP boat.

    So you say, but yet they continue with the Ladas.

    I earlier wrote sweden came with the AIP 1988, thats 31 years ago.

    NO THEY DID NOT. Stirling engines are 200 years old and have been tested and rejected by most naval powers around the world because sailing around with a tank full of liquid oxygen is dangerous. Most modern AIPs worth considering use hydrogen fuel cells but most of them require liquid oxygen and compressed hydrogen to be carried too which means they are rather small and not very powerful.

    The new Russian system extracts the hydrogen from diesel fuel, but requires high temperatures... hydrogen peroxide generates high temperatures when it touches a catalyst which releases steam and oxygen gas. Their fuel cell extracts the hydrogen and leaves solid carbon as a byproduct.

    It is genius because every port in the world where ships operate can deliver diesel fuel to the pier... no need for new infrastructure to deliver hydrogen gas which is a pain in the ass to handle and deliver.

    Today when stealth is of outmost importance AIP is critical to stay stealthy.

    These are diesel electrics... when running on batteries... ie electric they are already silent.

    The rest of the naval world is disagree with you that "normal" subs are "good enough". Thats a stupid commentary.

    The rest of the world can't create this AIP technology either.

    You pretend like the Russians are idiots... stirling engines were tested before WWI and rejected by most countries as being too dangerous.

    AIP just adds some time under water. That doesn't change the diesel sub. It stays the same with a "battery" that runs more than the old ones. You still need to recharge them.

    New Lithium Ion batteries are offering much much better performance than Sterling engines... they were talking about upgrading their Kilo class subs with Li Ion batteries to extend operating times on electric from 7 days to two weeks... which sounds better than a Sterling engine.

    I think you have no idea what AIP means.

    x2
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:07 am

    They DO build both Kilos and Lada togehter with Yasens, you dont understand what iam talking about. T14 is very expensive, and only has started production, until it has seen combat there is no way to really evalute the tank.

    They have been testing it for years... they produce Kilos because it was still being sold for export so it was still in production so to fill out SSK numbers they added a few extra hulls to the order book.

    The T-72 is out of production... only T-90 in production and now T-14.

    T-72 is like older subs being upgraded and refurbished to remain in service for duties that do not require anything better.

    In that sense the improved Kilos they have been building are better than the subs they have been exporting or allowed to export... but they are heavier and less capable than the Ladas they already have, but are testing and trying to get right before approving full scale production.

    Why indeed to they build SSKs, Why not build 100 yasen?

    Interesting you called him a 10 year old with comprehension issues... he said the Kilos were for coastal areas where bigger heavier but more capable SSNs are not needed.

    They don't need subs with three weeks continuous submerged capability to sail the Black Sea or the Baltic Sea.

    Wow so they dont need AIP and have operated without 80 years... just listen to yourself.

    You do understand that a diesel electric submarine has an AIP built in.... in the form of batteries...?

    A kilo class sub operating on batteries is quieter than a Gottland sub operating on its Stirling engine... or can it perform miracles and pump fuel to the Stirling motor silently?

    Wrong again, a diesel-electric AIP submarine is 5 times less the price of a virgina SSN.

    The country of Australia is five times cheaper than a US Submarine of any type.

    And then we are only talking about price per sub not maintaince and training and the whole nuclear deal.

    Do you think a giant diesel engine is easier to maintain than a sealed nuclear reactor that you can't get in to for the operational life of the NPP?


    Probably they explodes each other day... warships are just soo dangerous.

    The safety requirements for liquid oxygen tanks are horrendous...

    So why bother building anything if the mighty russian airforce will destroy everything the first day?

    I think he was responding to you seeming to think they are super power status toys... until Russia gets one it is not a super power... like Sweden and Germany and France... and Japan.

    Note the Americans don't have any SSK either BTW.

    Of course, no reason to make them expensive, building modern AIP submarines is so cheap...

    Really... because those cheap French subs teh Aussies are buying is less than India spent upgrading a Kiev class carrier and converting it into a conventional carrier and also getting a flight wing of aircraft and helicopters...

    "AIP doesnt change the diesel sub". That the most insane and stupid thing i have ever heard. AIP makes a diesel sub almost as good as a nuclear sub, for a fraction of the price. Diesel subs are more stealthy and more quite, only thing they cant compete with is speed.

    In their latest sub the Japanese have replaced the AIP Stirling engine and its fuel tanks and its oxygen tanks with extra Lithium Ion batteries.

    The diesel engine charges up the extra batteries and it remains submerged for longer than the Stirling engine could manage with no need for liquid oxygen storage.

    You obviously dont understand what the big deal with AIP is, or why Kilos and Ladas is lagging behind in this crucial technology. I guess the 10 countries that builds them and the 20 that operates AIP subs are just stupid and not as smart and bright as you.

    One of those countries has gone back to just better batteries to improve underwater performance.
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:22 am


    "AIP doesnt change the diesel sub". That the most insane and stupid thing i have ever heard. AIP makes a diesel sub almost as good as a nuclear sub, for a fraction of the price. Diesel subs are more stealthy and more quite, only thing they cant compete with is speed.

    You obviously dont understand what the big deal with AIP is, or why Kilos and Ladas is lagging behind in this crucial technology. I guess the 10 countries that builds them and the 20 that operates AIP subs are just stupid and not as smart and bright as you.

    There are nowhere near as good as nuclear subs. AIP gives them some more time under water. The submarine keeps the same caracteristics.

    They are not more stealthy. Once the AIP system empty they will have to surface and run their diesel engines just like old submarines.

    Those countries building buying them are not operatong nuclear subs and wants something that can hide longer during a war. So yes for export they better propose AIP but for their own kilo and lada they don't really need it.

    So why bother building anything if the mighty russian airforce will destroy everything the first day?

    Ask them. Poloand just made an exercice and found out in 3 days russia would take their country. Yet they want to upgrade their f-16. Either they have some other potential enemies thay are not powerfull like Russia or they are stupid.

    Those east european countries have no chance to win against Russia. Buying weapons is useless for them from a military point of view. Actually without military at all it would be better because Russia wouldn't attack them as they would be all civilians.

    However building subs creates jobs and a governement needs to create jobs for its population.
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    Post  runaway Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    They have been testing it for years... they produce Kilos because it was still being sold for export so it was still in production so to fill out SSK numbers they added a few extra hulls to the order book.

    The T-72 is out of production... only T-90 in production and now T-14.

    T-72 is like older subs being upgraded and refurbished to remain in service for duties that do not require anything better.

    In that sense the improved Kilos they have been building are better than the subs they have been exporting or allowed to export... but they are heavier and less capable than the Ladas they already have, but are testing and trying to get right before approving full scale production.

    I know T72 is out of production, i was comparing Kilos with T72 and Lada with T14.
    I dont think we will ever see a full scale production of Ladas, they are not that better then the Kilos. Better to go with Kalinas with AIP and with the sonar and stuff they have completed on the Ladas.



    You do understand that a diesel electric submarine has an AIP built in.... in the form of batteries...?

    A kilo class sub operating on batteries is quieter than a Gottland sub operating on its Stirling engine... or can it perform miracles and pump fuel to the Stirling motor silently?

    No need to be patronising, yes the AIP keeps batteries hold 20 days instead of 3 days, a big difference for stealth. If you want to be really quite you only have to turn of the AIP, no need to keep it running all the time.


    Do you think a giant diesel engine is easier to maintain than a sealed nuclear reactor that you can't get in to for the operational life of the NPP?

    I think its way more cheaper to maintain a diesel submarine then a nuclear sub.



    In their latest sub the Japanese have replaced the AIP Stirling engine and its fuel tanks and its oxygen tanks with extra Lithium Ion batteries.

    The diesel engine charges up the extra batteries and it remains submerged for longer than the Stirling engine could manage with no need for liquid oxygen storage.


    One of those countries has gone back to just better batteries to improve underwater performance.

    That is interesting, the AIP is nothing self needed if you can get 20 days under water with ion batteries, great. Just how long would it take to charge this massive battery bank though?
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    Post  runaway Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:16 am

    Isos wrote:
    There are nowhere near as good as nuclear subs. AIP gives them some more time under water. The submarine keeps the same caracteristics.
    They are not more stealthy. Once the AIP system empty they will have to surface and run their diesel engines just like old submarines.

    No really, thats the difference between a diving boat and a real under water boat, its a huge difference if you can stay under water for 20 days instead of 3.

    You say against yourself, its the AIP that makes the subs more stealthy, they dont need to snorkle.


    Those countries building buying them are not operatong nuclear subs and wants something that can hide longer during a war. So yes for export they better propose AIP but for their own kilo and lada they don't really need it.  

    I disagree, to be able to stay submerged and stealthy for 20 days can never be "not needed", even if they are in Black sea or Baltic. These are still vast areas and you keep up snorkeling is going to make you detected.


    Poloand just made an exercice and found out in 3 days russia would take their country. Yet they want to upgrade their f-16. Either they have some other potential enemies thay are not powerfull like Russia or they are stupid.

    Those east european countries have no chance to win against Russia. Buying weapons is useless for them from a military point of view. Actually without military at all it would be better because Russia wouldn't attack them as they would be all civilians.

    Ever heard of Hato? Or do you imagine Russia and Polen fighting a war all alone? Do you think these east european countries will be picked of one at a time?
    Joining Hato isnt only about defence, its about politics. Buying military hardware in exchange for loans and market acces.


    However building subs creates jobs and a governement needs to create jobs for its population.

    Of course, but it would make more sense building civilian stuff if you only wants to make the population happy. Like cars, refrigirators, xboxs..
    But yes, its vital to keep industri and workforce up to date.

    Still, that doesnt change the fact that both Kilos and Ladas is inferior in certain parameters because they lack AIP. You say they dont need it, i disagree.
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    Post  Singular_Transform Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:54 pm

    Isos wrote:

    "AIP doesnt change the diesel sub". That the most insane and stupid thing i have ever heard. AIP makes a diesel sub almost as good as a nuclear sub, for a fraction of the price. Diesel subs are more stealthy and more quite, only thing they cant compete with is speed.

    You obviously dont understand what the big deal with AIP is, or why Kilos and Ladas is lagging behind in this crucial technology. I guess the 10 countries that builds them and the 20 that operates AIP subs are just stupid and not as smart and bright as you.

    There are nowhere near as good as nuclear subs. AIP gives them some more time under water. The submarine keeps the same caracteristics.

    However building subs creates jobs and a governement needs to create jobs for its population.

    Basic issue is the next :
    The ballance between example diesel and liquid oxigen is 1:3, so each kg of diesel needs 3 kg of oxigen.

    Means the submarine need to carry four times more fuel, for the same endurance, as exchange it doesn't need to surface.


    with everything equal, the ship will be bigger , more expensive OR less capable for the same money. All difference that the AIP means there is no periodic surfacing.

    LiON batteris could give the same benefit for diesel submarines, for less cost actually.
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    Post  Isos Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:06 pm

    AIP isn't necessarly used to run the sub. It will more likely be used to just stay on the bottom and wait for a target providibg air to the crew.

    If it runs non stop, the 20 days underwarter advertized will be more something like 5 days. Engine will burn the oxygen quickly even if you make it two times bigger (which also means 2 times bugger engines and 2 times more electric consumption and 2 times more expensive.

    Yasen/borei have a cost of 800 million. Export kilo can hit 450 million. I would rather have a yasen with 32 VLS and 30 torpedo than 2 kilo with 17 torpedo each and AIP.

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