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73 posters

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:29 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    A Type 212 can do as much as 1500 miles and all the pressurized air that it carries allows it to stay some 20 days submerged for the duty.
    It sounds good in fukin' commercials made fur dumb&dumber, but does not change the fact that in real it means making some 75 miles A DAY.

    To put that in perspective, if your numbers are correct, thats an average speed of 1.6 knots.

    Fecking laughable! Couldn't even chase down a scallop boat or a rowboat manned by a pair of down syndromes. Razz
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:44 am

    Just imagine that it requires a 17-man crew shift to operate an SLCM carrier multipurpose submarine.
    Next step is to make it unmanned.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:46 am

    That is because AIP was never designed for chasing or getting operational speed, but slowly crawling underwater with a long endurance.
    That is why having or not having AIP is just a technical issue that orders the one who pays the bills.
    It is being used by the western dumbasses as one more propaganda shit, because "having" and "not having" is a I/O issue.

    No country that operates both nuclear and conventional subs at the same time, needs to bother AIP.
    Except for the Chinese, but the answer is quite simple - they sucked at nuclear subs for a very long time and had only a few pcs.

    Hole wrote:
    Next step is to make it unmanned.

    Chief designer said that it already uses AI for working out some suggestions provided to the crew later.
    I guess that it is a fancy way to name automatization of the processes that Russkie have been using for decades, only improving.

    And by the way, 677 can be equipped with both AIP and li-ion batteries if requested. The point is that the Russian Navy didn't asked for none of those.
    Reducing the sub size, and improving energy efficiency doubled the submerged range and operational time if compared to 636.6.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:26 pm

    Is it possible to praise the work on one design without trashing the work of others, pretty please?

    Introduction of AIP was an huge technological and operative step forward for the times it was developed and put in service.
    Obviously, different solution were tried, some worked excellently, some were in time abandoned.

    Same Stirling engine that was probably the most used solution is now in its waning phase being supplanted by fuel cells but Sweden insist on it with their new class being able to operate for 18 days at 5 knots, not bad at all IMHO.

    Both Japan than Russia (that used AIP submarines already in the fifties ) decided not to pursue such way anymore?

    Well, that means that such a thing have certainly a sense FOR THEM, for other countries situation could be different and continuing following such a way could EQUALLY have a lot of sense FOR THEM:
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:31 pm

    The Quebec class submarine was not a success at all. In fact they were known as Zippos for a reason. Only 30 were ever built. At that time "successful" Soviet submarines ran in the hundreds.

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    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:57 am

    Mir wrote:The Quebec class submarine was not a success at all. In fact they were known as Zippos for a reason. Only 30 were ever built. At that time "successful" Soviet submarines ran in the hundreds.

    Sorry, in what part of my post you have seen the world "success" referred to Quebec class?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:04 am

    Is it possible to praise the work on one design without trashing the work of others, pretty please?

    Well lets be honest... a lot of the trashing of AIPs comes after certain members claimed an SSK is not a modern SSK unless it is fitted with a working AIP.

    The best AIPs operational anywhere are nuclear propelled subs, but they are also rather expensive and not every country can afford to operate them let alone develop and produce them.

    Introduction of AIP was an huge technological and operative step forward for the times it was developed and put in service.
    Obviously, different solution were tried, some worked excellently, some were in time abandoned.

    To be fair most HATO AIP subs will be ambush and terrorism subs so having two or three days every two weeks when they are not much use is not really a huge problem for them, but for a Russian sub that is patrolling local waters a 4-6 hour gap while running diesel engines and charging the batteries is an acceptable price to pay because obviously they wont be on their own and they wont all charge their batteries at the same time.

    Looking to the future they are talking about sea bed based recharging stations for SSKs and also drone subs, which means all the space AIP systems take up could be replaced with more new battery types... when attached to the charger and charging batteries they can clean the onboard air supplies and have everything running in passive mode listening for threats and targets while remaining stationary and charging the batteries.

    Or they could simply develop a tiny SSN whose purpose is to operate in each of the four main fleet that is a mobile battery charger that can rendezvous with SSKs and various drone types underwater to charge them without needing to surface at all. The connection could just be to transfer power or it could include the ability to transfer people and material so you could forward deploy SSKs somewhere and these SSNs could operate as sub tenders to support their operations.

    decided not to pursue such way anymore?

    Too dangerous and not as good as nuclear powered subs which are rather faster and with much better endurance at the cost of being more expensive.

    Well, that means that such a thing have certainly a sense FOR THEM, for other countries situation could be different and continuing following such a way could EQUALLY have a lot of sense FOR THEM:

    European countries seem to not like nuclear power, and AIPs might suit them better, but that is in no way to say an SSK is useless without AIP, which is what many advocates of AIPs suggest when whining that the Russians don't have any operational at the moment.

    Sorry, in what part of my post you have seen the world "success" referred to Quebec class?

    That is the problem for the Soviets/Russians, something the Swedish might consider successful just might be a total failure for Russia, but then the Russians will spend on defence when they think they need to... now Sweden is part of HATO it is going to realise defence has nothing to do with defence or capability and is more about buying good will from the countries you trade with in the West. Buying French subs will get you in good with France and buying subs from the UK and US will get you in good with them, but the budget will be enormous...
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:10 am

    marcellogo wrote:
    Sorry, in what part of my post you have seen the world "success" referred to Quebec class?

    Nothing - but you were the one that mentioned the Quebec as an example. You also mentioned the Japanese in the same breath.

    More recently the Japanese tested both the MTU 16V396SE diesel engines used on the Type 212 submarine and SEMT Pielstick PA4V200SM diesel engine. Both engine's output were found to be far below the required performance. As far as I am concerned the Japanese are leading the pack when it comes to SSK designs.

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