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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:12 am

    LMFS wrote:Maybe this lack of powerful T/Rs for AESA is one of the reasons for the delay of Su-57... from what I've read, I think they wouldn't match the power output of the Irbis as of now

    You have reading comprehension issues

    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    The greatest progress in the development of W-121 RLC associated with bringing to a state of mass production the main element radar AFAR - transceiver modules. The production of such modules - broadband microwave amplifiers for PPR, is a monolithic integrated circuit type GaN - established at FSUE "Scientific-Industrial Enterprise" Istok "(Fryazino, Moscow region) included in the composition of the holding" Roselektronika. "

    Development of modules for microwave radar N036 carried on NPP "Source" since 2003. Based on the power transistors and monolithic integrated circuits interest microwave before acceptance have been developed microwave modules for active phased array of bedinyayuschie in all the two-ne Reda TV antenna, supply chain of chilled water systems and digital governance.

    Currently, the NPP "Istok" launched Russia's first line for the industrial production of transistors and integrated circuits monolithic microwave. For our country, it was a breakthrough, because four years ago, microwave monolithic integrated circuits produced only single specimens. The launch of this line allowed volume production of microwave sub-modules for radar AFAR.

    Established in Enterprise "Istok" pilot line for assembling, configuring, testing and mass production of microwave sub-modules AFAR has a capacity of 100,000 units per year, provided that the development from 2010 serial production of low-temperature multi-layer ceramic (LTSS). Initial ceramic tape manufactured by this company. Commissioned special area for machining of body parts for microwave AFAR submodules with up to 200 thousand sets of parts per year.

    Standard T/R modules are 5-10W used in current AESA.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:16 am

    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.
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    Post  hoom Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:36 am

    Which model were they shown?
    Presumably the one Russia intended to sell them dunno

    That's a lie then
    https://www.rbth.com/blogs/stranger_than_fiction/2016/06/10/why-india-needs-to-fast-track-the-pak-fa_601731
    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.
    There are many similar quotes, I think the radar side is less referenced in English than in Russian for some reason.
    It may be that its a mis-quote or misunderstanding but its a reported complaint.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:52 am

    And none of that was ever validated cause they all quote claims from one source.

    First off they (Indian side) wouldn't have such access. Actually, they never even flew it. second, they complained about materials used when they have zero access to it. Why they have zero access is because they were never part of the Su-57 development. All proclaims we're obvious lies and BS cause it was funding (small amounts I might add) for FGFA which never showed the light of day due to India's side.  Russia would never give anyone access to a jet that is fully funded by them and still in experimental stage.  All they did was look at an existing early model and made claims, without actual use.  The complaint for the radar is obviously someone taking what was said about Zhuk A and adding it to Su-57.  

    These claims were more or less debunked.  Radar physically cannot be underpowered as I said. If you wish for me to go into numbers and details all over again, fine. If you understand it that would be good. But I'm assuming you don't.

    N036 is entirely based upon the Bars structure but using AESA elements. It has over 1,500 T/R modules operating at a Max of 10W. Do the math and you will get then performance.

    15KW. Will give it roughly 400km detection/track range. Meaning it surpasses most other existing radars now. Even the Rafales proclaimed aesa which India was wanting badly.

    So that will bouls down to nonsense.

    I suggest one follows Jo from another forum (can't name) who has far more knowledge than I do regarding the materials used. But I have pointed out multiple times of Russia's T/R modules designs and production on this forums.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:20 am


    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    But for what ? AESA aren't massivly used in russia. S-400 are pesa just like all the other air def system but pantsir. Airborn based radars too. Ship based radar are aesa but only for the newest.

    Maybe they also use them for PESA radars ?


    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    When did that happened ?

    The su-57 is still in testing phase. 5 or 6 years ago it wasn't ready neither the radar was. So complaining about something in development is just showing stupidity of indians.

    And even an underpowered Byelka radar having 20 km range against b-52 is still something indians can only dream about to do ...

    At least chinese try to do something by themselves. Indian sucks. The best for them is to buy what russia sells and just keep their mouths closed. If not they could see sole more su-35 and su-57 going to china and its not the 36 rafales or the probably 36 f-35 they will have to buy for a huge price that will help them against hundreds of chinese sukhois.

    Seriously its like a high school teacher trying to explain mathematics to Einstein ...
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:20 am

    BTW that quote is direct about India's claim of the Zhuk A over the testing of MiG-35D when the Zhuk A only had some ~500 t/R modules

    So that claim is even more bogus about N036 that uses 1522 t/r modules.
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:22 am

    Isos wrote:

    T/R modules been made for years in thousands.

    But for what ? AESA aren't massivly used in russia. S-400 are pesa just like all the other air def system but pantsir. Airborn based radars too. Ship based radar are aesa but only for the newest.

    Maybe they also use them for PESA radars ?


    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    When did that happened ?

    The su-57 is still in testing phase. 5 or 6 years ago it wasn't ready neither the radar was. So complaining about something in development is just showing stupidity of indians.

    And even an underpowered Byelka radar having 20 km range against b-52 is still something indians can only dream about to do ...

    At least chinese try to do something by themselves. Indian sucks. The best for them is to buy what russia sells and just keep their mouths closed. If not they could see sole more su-35 and su-57 going to china and its not the 36 rafales or the probably 36 f-35 they will have to buy for a huge price that will help them against hundreds of chinese sukhois.

    Seriously its like a high school teacher trying to explain mathematics to Einstein ...

    They are used on Nebo Radar, I believe on some other military large low band radar, they are used on shipping radars used in commercial ships, airports etc.

    2003 is when they started making T/R modules of GaAS design and 2010 for mass production.

    And guarantee you 100% India only saw a basic bench test of the N036 and that was it. Russian MoD stated their satisfaction with it while we're unsatisfied with Zhuk A initially while AM met their standards.
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    Post  Hole Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:29 am

    Come on guys, we are talking about Indians. It´s there normal tactic. Bitch around for years about the product and the prize and in the end buying it without any changces to the first offering.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Sep 27, 2018 12:46 pm

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    1.Which Zhuk ? All Phazotron offerings for Sukhois are PESA's. Zhuk AE ? too small. It needs to be scaled up which for some reason they didn't do.

    2.Zhuk is Phazotron product and as we see there are NO Phazotron Radars flying on Sukhoi. NIIP Thikomirov in other hand, the maker of Sukhoi radars won't ever touch MiG's. The only exception is MiG-31's.
    ------------------

    Photonics are still years away and so is GaN Module for fighter aircrafts. One would probably can cool few GAN modules for internal ECM suite or cool typical radar sized GaN Antenna if they are on pods in the manner of US Next Gen Jammer. But for fighter radar, the curve seems still favor GAaS Modules.

    The trends prob will move toward GAN first due to established industrial base and the fact one can put it into commercial applications to reduce cost of development.
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    Post  Labrador Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:07 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.
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    Post  Stealthflanker Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:32 pm

    Labrador wrote:

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.

    Increase in detection range is not all that one can gauge as improvements. The V2 may have additional modes and such while remaining 400 km maximum range.

    Same things for module technology. It is not necessarily increase in emitted power as in high frequencies such as X-band one will face natural physics barrier namely reduced PAE (Power Added Efficiency) and furthermore the fact that for signal purity designer may opt for A-class operating modes which constrain the PAE in say X-band to be no more than 20-30% (S-band and higher can have 50%) for the module which means increased heat. The module in other hand can be made more reliable, more compact (read, shorter as AESA module width is constrained by operating wavelength).
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:15 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:
    hoom wrote:I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    That's a lie then cause the number of The/R modules (~1550) at about 5-10W would give it about 400km range which is exactly what Russia aimed at since it's the AESA derivative of the Irbis which is 400km range against fighter sized targets.  Which also makes it most powerful radar in service for a jet. Peak Power would be 15KW

    I think many of you need to do research instead of assuming.

    All other radars used that are AESA are using same wattage of The/R modules unless they introduced GaN which they have not.  So if India complained of N036 then it's bullshit cause then they would complain about every other AESA radar made.

    Curious the range for N036 APG-77 v2 which is the best for a fighter with last modules and 1956 have about this range in addtition USA build ASEA radars since almost 20 years and reputed to have the best modules

    And how you can yet know N 036 electric power very rare onfos in more for such new and special fighter ? Russia is not China wich " don't  talk " or almost but it is more difficult sometimes with them than with Western countries to know.
    In addition new radar nothing sure for him only first estimations...

    And the IRBIS is very good but remains a PESA and the range seems long but remains also electric power.

    Exactly which modules are used? In theory a Chinese AESA once shown for J-11 had over 2000 t/r modules but only low range detection.

    Heat is a major issue. More modules means more heat. Harder to cool and actual major issue of AESA even today, which GaN was supposed to fix.  Lots of modules but very little in cooling properly means reduced usage.

    Next is the APU. How much power is being supplied to the Radar? Irbis E gets upwards to 20KW of power. Assuming N036 gets the same. The modules we know from existing models shown at MACS is 1522 T/R modules. For all we know, they may have increased them. But since we know little, then it's safe to assume the model shown in 2009 is same as now. T/R modules from NPP Istok was shown at Max of 10W at about same year. Improvements may have been made as they were working on it. But since little is known, then I'm assuming they are the same.  So at full usage it's about 15-16KW of total power for all those modules meaning the APU can provide 4-5KW more power if necessary.  But heat will be major issue.

    Power driven beam steering is barely a problem these days due to increased speed of the steering anyway so it really isn't a problem. And the LPI mode is a joke as lower power output means less likely to get clarity on object you are picking up.

    But that is only an opinion of someone I am very close to (and mentioned before) who worked in the dew lines when they replaced a PESA ground based radar with AESA.

    Most said is based upon speculation with information we know. Most info obtained is old info from as early as 2009. Is it accurate today? Don't know. The 400km range may be for targets larger than 3M^2 but should be close as the gap filled with Bars R with only 7kw max power is now closer to that range (between 200km and 400km for 3m^2).

    Right now, is ROFAR (Photonics or also known as quantum radar) which is undergoing tests. Don't know how far they got for a fighter sized based radar but that is their aim. And possibly why a delay in acceptance. I think they are skipping a bit in GaN as they already make GaN modules for 5G wireless and other devices and I believe for ship based AESA.
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:53 pm

    Missile launches from su-30SM.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:49 am

    The IAF complained about supposedly sloppy construction, inadequate power plants and underpowered radar.

    Hahahahaha... did that same source suggest they buy the F-35... poor construction, inadequate engine and poor radar... they weren't western media talking about the MiG-29 in the 1980s were they?

    Or the problem could be you... in that same article there was this paragraph:

    It was a mystery why the IAF brass would trash its own future stealth fighter, especially considering its only alternative was the American F-35 which is experiencing major cost and performance problems. But now that a former air chief is under investigation for allegedly receiving kickbacks from Italian defence giant Finmeccanica, it indicates these complaints were politically motivated. Clearly, there was a lobby working against the Russian stealth jet to the detriment of the IAF’s combat readiness.

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    Post  Hole Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:26 am

    What a surprise.
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:00 pm

    As I stated, the Russians should have outright told the truth that the Indians did not have access to the sensitive information that the so called chief proclaimed. I figure they didn't to piss off India but knowing how India's military brass are both grossly incompetent and corrupt, I wouldn't give two shits if it pissed off the Indians since they have no problem trying to tarnish Russians through corrupt officials who come up with make belief stories how they had access to all info about radar, engines, materials and structure which they wouldn't have, not even on a completed jet.
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    Post  Hole Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:06 pm

    Indians talking with forked tongue. Laughing
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    Post  Isos Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:As I stated, the Russians should have outright told the truth that the Indians did not have access to the sensitive information that the so called chief proclaimed. I figure they didn't to piss off India but knowing how India's military brass are both grossly incompetent and corrupt, I wouldn't give two shits if it pissed off the Indians since they have no problem trying to tarnish Russians through corrupt officials who come up with make belief stories how they had access to all info about radar, engines, materials and structure which they wouldn't have, not even on a completed jet.

    Why ? Everyone following miltary news know that indian don't even know what they are talking about.

    Seriously they have a homemade frigate that is a bigger clone of grigorovitch using everything grigorovitch uses Very Happy ( russia radars, weapons) but with more israeli weapons onboard and they still buy russian grigorovitch instead. It tells you a lot about their military technology comprehension and knowledge.
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    Post  hoom Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:16 am

    The complaint for the radar is obviously someone taking what was said about Zhuk A and adding it to Su-57.
    That does ring a bell yes, you're probably right, my bad Embarassed
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    Post  dino00 Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:52 pm

    Irkut aircraft factory will transfer two Su-30 SM fighters for a new squadron in the Kursk region

    Planes will replace the MiG-29SMT fighter planes according to the rearmament plan.

    MOSCOW, November 24th. / Tass /. The aviation association of the Western Military District (ZVO) will receive from the Irkutsk aircraft factory of the Irkut Corporation two generation fighter "4+" to form a new squadron in the Kursk region, the district press service said on Saturday.

    "The next batch of aircraft has already been accepted at the factory in Irkutsk and prepared for the flight with a length of more than 5 thousand kilometers. The pair, manufactured at the Irkutsk plant, will be included in the combat squadron squadron, which the MiG-29SMT fighters will replace according to the rearmament plan," in the press service.

    At the end of November this year, the acquisition of an entire fleet of combat aircraft equipped with super-maneuverable fighters will be completed

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5830630
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:38 am

    dino00 wrote:Irkut aircraft factory will transfer two Su-30 SM fighters for a new squadron in the Kursk region

    Planes will replace the MiG-29SMT fighter planes according to the rearmament plan.


    No way Su-30SM are rpelacing MiGs? bwhahahaha let's wait for Garry B comments lol1 lol1 lol1
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    Post  Hole Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:20 am

    They replace it in that regiment. The MiG-29SMT will be send elsewhere.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:52 pm

    Hole wrote:They replace it in that regiment. The MiG-29SMT will be send elsewhere.

    The key word here is replace. Better fighters are replacing worse ones
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:40 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Hole wrote:They replace it in that regiment. The MiG-29SMT will be send elsewhere.

    The key word here is replace. Better fighters are replacing worse ones

    Correct

    Also those worse ones are probably being sent to some lower priority area (Central or East Russia) to serve out rest of their useful lifespan
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:27 am

    The vendetta on this forum against MiG is amusing... whats the matter... did they not save you from NATO?

    Of course when there is no maintenance and corruption involved even having F-22s would not have changed the situation you were in, but carry on and put down a perfectly effective aircraft... it will keep doing a good job where ever it goes, and you will feel important and knowledgeable in your little ivory tower.

    It took NATO years to work out how to deal with the B export to War Pact allies model of the MiG-29 with west german pilots, and their solution was AMRAAM... so it must be complete crap obviously.

    The amusing thing is that the west seriously underrates these aircraft and thinks it is OK for Egypt to have some because they are only 1970s MiG-29s... hahaha... the USAF got its butt kicked in training with the Indians in MiG-21s how much chance would they have against newer better MiGs.

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