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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:55 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

    And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

    As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

    With the same tech, s-400 radars should be able to see anything at max range, stealth or not. New awacs will be beast and even smaller ones with smaller radar than a-100 can be very good if a radar with an antenna of 1m can see a target of 3m2 at 400km which is what awacs can do today then an awacs mounted on SSJ-100 or similar plane could see f-22 at 500-600 km easily. Even track it ajd guide r-37 on them.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:32 pm

    if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.



    apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:36 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

    And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

    As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

    Su-35 is just a stopgap for the Su-57.

    When the Su-57 is available they won't need to procure more Su-35s, but they'll still need the 2-seater Flankers for all sorts of multirole duties; strike, interception, patrol, etc... However they're not meant to be top-of-the-line air superiority fighters with the highest-end equipment such as the Su-35 or Su-57 are. They're your bread and butter and you need a lot of them, so you want to aim for best value for money; not the most expensive technologies.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:02 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.

    apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2

    I'm not. I'm just wondering what new awacs could do if a radar with an antenna of 1m and power output of 20kW can see such targets at 400km.

    There are numbers on the net about nato awacs having ranges of 300-400 against 4th generation fighters. This is less capable than a irbis e. Then if you use the irbis e tech on such big radars you can see raptors and f-35 at max range easily.

    Thanks for the video.
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    Post  miketheterrible Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:I think the 36 in question are now orders, the next orders will be these newer Su-30's.

    And yes, I am correct.  They might as well make a Su-35 two seater and be done with it.

    As well, Irbis-E's performance mentions was years ago.  As far back as 2009.  Same time Bars radar was much less capable than it is today (Yes, Medo is correct, 400km range for larger targets, about 250km - 300km for fighter sized targets (3m^2).  That is now or around 2014 when Bars-R came to light and all its improvements (Without needing much for power output increase.  As Medo said, with new APU's they could just switch outright to Irbis radar).  But for what we know, they may have already made modernization of the Irbis Radar for better sensitivity and increase range within the same amount of power draw or less.

    Su-35 is just a stopgap for the Su-57.

    When the Su-57 is available they won't need to procure more Su-35s, but they'll still need the 2-seater Flankers for all sorts of multirole duties. However they're not meant to be top-of-the-line air superiority fighters with the highest-end equipment such as the Su-35 or Su-57 are. They're your bread and butter and you need a lot of them, so you want to aim for best value for money; not the most expensive technologies.

    But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM.  So that kind of throws this whole debate aside since well, it is supposed to be cheap.

    Su-57 wont come out in numbers.  I have a theory - a lot of the technology from Su-57 will end up in the Su-35 and the rest.  Reason is that stealth isn't necessary anymore since ways of tracking and engaging stealth is way more advanced than it was 10 years ago and current stealth platforms are not really effective.  Thus it becomes a very expensive acquisition for little to no gain.  Various technologies can come to Su-35 from Su-57 since radar housing is similar dimensions from what I read and the power output from the Su-35S APU is more than enough to power that N036 radar.  Which in this case, can also be installed in current Su-30SM.

    They will aim for something even newer and better than Su-57.  By then, they may start to introduce a Su-57 in numbers as overall design of the Su-35 will be exhausted.

    Isos wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:if you are insinuating that the Irbis doesn't see that far for a fighter sized target, it was already proven in a video submitted on youtube years ago of a Irbis E detecting targets at various ranges, 3M^2 at over 320km.

    apparently target in question on the video is 1m^2

    I'm not. I'm just wondering what new awacs could do if a radar with an antenna of 1m and power output of 20kW can see such targets at 400km.

    There are numbers on the net about nato awacs having ranges of 300-400 against 4th generation fighters. This is less capable than a irbis e. Then if you use the irbis e tech on such big radars you can see raptors and f-35 at max range easily.

    Thanks for the video.

    The AWACS mentioned, A-100, is capable of seeing targets upwards to 600km. Possibly even further. Detecting them at such large ranges is not out of the question. It is the tracking them is the tough part. Also, A-100 radar system is supposed to be AESA too, so it will be different in terms of sensitivity to its antenna.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:29 am

    miketheterrible wrote:.....But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM. ....

    Since when?

    VKS version of Su-30 is best bang for the buck in history of aviation.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:31 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:.....But Su-35 is cheaper than Su-30SM. ....

    Since when?

    VKS version of Su-30 is best bang for the buck in history of aviation.

    I believe it was because of mentioned prices of Su-35 individually was less than $30M per aircraft. Roughly $27M per aircraft.

    I guess best would be to compare prices in Rubles of recent orders, and how many they got per aircraft.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:56 am

    The Su-35 was an interum fighter... it is not completely the same as a stopgap fighter... it is fitted with avionics intended for the 5th gen fighters, so in many ways it is a fifth gen fighter without the stealth and internal weapons bays.

    I doubt they had any plans as to whether to make just a few Su-35s and lots of Su-57s or lots of Su-35s and a few Su-57s or lots of both... I rather suspect they want to test and evaluate them and also look at their performance... as long as they keep putting new upgraded avionics in both aircraft as technology improves I don't see a reason for a two seat model of either aircraft... the whole point of 5th gen super avionics is a virtual AI crew to take care of mundane stuff while the pilot tackles stuff that can't be automated.

    If Su-35s can be made for 27 million... that is about 7 million more than an Apache helicopter for goodness sake... they should make thousands even if the Su-57 is a success...
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    Post  marcellogo Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:35 am

    A Su-30SM with the engine of Su-35, updated avionics and a more powerful APU is a practical equivalent of a two seater version of it.

    -while in the case of Su-30 they just needed to take an existing plane and modify it in order to test the new suit, developing a two seater version of Su-35 plane would need to get back to designer table, build a prototype and perform almost a full certification test run if not complete state one.

    -Su-30 have sold a lot abroad in the past decades so a potential retrofitting market is already present while the Su-35 is much more recent and still in their green years.

    -Su-30 is made at Irkusk while Su-35 at KnAAZ and remaining slots there are already for Su-57.
    Actual production batch of Su-30SM  is about to be fulfilled and another contract need to be signed as there are still a request for it, and not Su-35, by both VKS than VMF, so better to have them at the highest possible standard.

    Above all, Su-30SM and Su-35 are, in the minds and plans of the high commands are considered complementary and not alternative planes, just as also Su-34 are.

    Su-35 would be an Air Defense and Air Superiority plane, Su-30 are Tactical Fighters and Maritime Patrol planes (while covering also the need of OCU for Su-35 and Su-57) while Su-34 is a light tactical bomber. Su-35 have also a successor almost ready in the form of Su-57 so investing heavily in future version of it make not sense at all.
    Better to look after a two seater version of Su-57 instead.
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    Post  Hole Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:16 am

    Cheap solution: the new-built modernised Su-30SM (SU-30SM1 or 2) could be called Su-35UB.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:46 am

    Not really... the whole point of a two seat aircraft is to share the workload between two human beings...

    If the Su-35 can be operated as a single seat fighter then you can assume it wont be operated the same way an Su-30 would be operated... you could set the Su-30 up so the front guy is the Su-35 pilot and the guy in the back just monitors hits performance and gets him out of trouble if he makes a mistake... but that would pretty much make the Su-30 a trainer aircraft for the Su-35.

    In fact I suspect the Su-30 is designed to be operated by two people... so pilot in front and weapon operator/navigator in the back... ie two crew with two distinct but separate roles that compliment each other and raise the performance of the aircraft beyond what one person could manage on their own.

    Having said that of course... if you only need a two seater for training because the avionics make it easy enough to fly on your own then an Su-30 with a digital flight control system that can simulate the performance of other aircraft like the Yak-130 has means the Su-30 could be designed so that it can be used as a single seat aircraft for training with trainer in the back, or as a fully operational two seat fighter bomber...

    Equally with all these remote tanks and unmanned aircraft another option would be to have remote control with a trainer in a van able to take over control of the aircraft if there is a problem... in a very serious situation you could fly a low slow pass over the airfield and eject the trainee, and then come around and try to safely land the now unmanned aircraft...
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    Post  LMFS Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:24 am

    marcellogo wrote:A Su-30SM with the engine of Su-35, updated avionics and a more powerful APU is a practical equivalent of a two seater version of it.

    -while in the case of Su-30 they just needed to take an existing plane and modify it in order to test the new suit, developing a two seater version of Su-35 plane would need to get back to designer table, build a prototype and perform almost a full certification test run if not complete state one.

    -Su-30 have sold a lot abroad in the past decades so a potential retrofitting market is already present while the Su-35 is much more recent and still in their green years.

    -Su-30 is made at Irkusk while Su-35 at KnAAZ and remaining slots there are already for Su-57.
    Actual production batch of Su-30SM  is about to be fulfilled and another contract need to be signed as there are still a request for it, and not Su-35, by both VKS than VMF, so better to have them at the highest possible standard.

    Above all, Su-30SM and Su-35 are, in the minds and plans of the high commands are considered complementary and not  alternative planes, just as also Su-34 are.

    Su-35 would be an Air Defense and Air Superiority plane, Su-30 are Tactical Fighters and Maritime Patrol planes (while covering also the need of OCU for Su-35 and Su-57) while Su-34 is a light tactical bomber. Su-35 have also a successor almost ready in the form of Su-57 so investing heavily in future version of it make not sense at all.
    Better to look after a two seater version of Su-57 instead.
    Well said. The Super MKI for India would be based on these improvements I think.

    Only thing I disagree is that Su-57 needs a two seater version. It has been designed from the beginning as a multirole fighter with virtual co-pilot, so a second human on board should not be needed. In fact, it could be thinkable to retrofit this system into the Su-35 in the future and reinforce its multi-role capability.
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    Post  medo Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:42 pm



    New video with some nice interior pictures.
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    Post  slasher Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:10 am

    LMFS wrote:Well said. The Super MKI for India would be based on these improvements I think.

    Only thing I disagree is that Su-57 needs a two seater version. It has been designed from the beginning as a multirole fighter with virtual co-pilot, so a second human on board should not be needed. In fact, it could be thinkable to retrofit this system into the Su-35 in the future and reinforce its multi-role capability.

    Actually, the proposed future version of the su-57 dispenses altogether with any pilot, and foresees it as the basis of Russia's 6th gen. aircraft' development ambitions.
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    Post  PTURBG Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:44 am

    Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:06 am

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    Multitude of reasons:

    1) PESA won't be outdated. Don't let marketing fool you.
    2) AESA very expensive and performance increase may not be sufficient.
    3) they are working on newer AESA tech like ROFAR (Photonics) and making newer GaAS and GaN modules which aren't out yet. Current are rather inefficient.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:03 pm

    AESA technology is not mature in Russia yet, but it will be everywhere... from tethered drones with AESA radar and IIR sensors flying above armoured vehicles, to ground searching radar and air scanning radar from helicopters, drones, fixed wing aircraft, land vehicles (including SAM systems and large ground based radar arrays), ships, and satellites... so the number of AESA elements needing to be produced will be thousands of millions... which will come down in price and increase in performance rather rapidly.

    In the meantime PESA is effective and much cheaper, while offering good performance.

    New technologies are getting close that might be quite revolutionary, so it would be a huge waste of money to now invest lots of money buying AESA radars for everything, if these new Photonic radars offer even better performance with a different technology.
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    Post  miketheterrible Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:37 pm

    Russia's been producing T/R GaAS modules since early 2000's. They produced them in the tens of thousands dating back in 2009 or so, as many ground based systems use them.

    Reason why they weren't used in airforce is because of cost and that they average around ~10+% failure rate on the T/R modules. So with modules only around 5W, that is a pretty big failure. That usually comes with lack of proper cooling.

    They we're working on T/R modules which was shown quite a few years ago, that we're smaller than the standard modules and operating at 10W in a quad module. What happened to that? Don't know. Possibly still produced for specific needs like wireless network and what not.

    Then Rostec, whom owns both Phazotron and Tikhomirov NIIP is working on the ROFAR, which they have set up test benches and build a whole new facility just for it's development. With even rumors of it being field tested too last year.

    And of course, PESA still has potential, especially since now they are a hybrid structure. High power, high accuracy, higher (than older models) resolution and at a reduced cost compared to AESA, even the older AESA variants.

    Of course the Su-30SM and what not could hold the N036 radar since the N036 is designed around bars radar family but uses the GaAS AESA modules. They could greatly reduce costs by making many more of these radars to be used as backwards compatibility with Su-30 and Su-35. But the cost may skyrocket, while performance is about the same as the Su-35. Because in the end, it's power input/output. 20KW of power from the APU of the Su-35 and Su-57 will end up providing just enough for the radar to have similar performance.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:26 pm

    If they can unify the design of the TR modules so every Russian AESA radar uses the same one... the enormous production volumes will reduce prices, and over time they will perfect production and the design to the point where they get smaller and more powerful and more efficient... and you just replace older modules with new ones as they are produced...

    Whether it is the enormous arrays for ground based SAM radar vehicles, to units on tanks to spot incoming munitions, to ship mounted arrays etc etc etc.

    Keep upgrading module design depending on what is the best and what is available...
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    Post  LMFS Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:21 am

    Maybe this lack of powerful T/Rs for AESA is one of the reasons for the delay of Su-57... from what I've read, I think they wouldn't match the power output of the Irbis as of now
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:34 am

    They have mentioned an issue regarding wanting to wait for the new engines... why would they not mention issues with AESA array elements?

    This link:

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-08-27/su-57-and-mig-35-land-russian-orders-during-army-2018#

    Posted by Tsavo Lion,

    The initial production batch will be followed by shipments of more aircraft in improved versions that are now in development. In particular, the customer expects an upgraded variant, now undergoing flights trials, to become available in quantities from 2023.

    And also:

    “The Su-57 is a basic platform that will develop, undergo modernization, and re-engining. In the process, we will install more and more advanced systems, so as to expand the combat capabilities and functionality of the baseline aircraft. This shall shape the future of our aviation for many years ahead.”

    In other words, the design is not set in stone and will be continually upgraded and adapted to the various needs of the military...

    I would expect the current model with whatever radar they fit... and the AESA radar has already been tested on a prototype, so making 45 arrays should not be too hard (three arrays in the nose for 15 aircraft), plus new engines... and by 2023 they will likely have new photonic radar antennas and of course laser weapons, and likely improve EO systems too.

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    Post  hoom Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:19 pm

    I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.
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    Post  marcellogo Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:59 pm

    PTURBG wrote:Why not just install the Zhuk radar on the Su-30SM instead of tinkering with PESAs that will soon be hopelessly outdated? Are the nosecone dimensions too small or does the air force consider the software changes too expensive?

    Because installing a completely new component in an existing frame take a lot more text time than updating an already installed one.

    Lot of people seems to forget how PESA and AESA radar have different weight distribution and balance.

    While in a PESA radar RF transmitter and antenna elements are separated one from the other, in AESA they are physically connected: it means not only that the weight imbalance between them is completely different but that while in an actual PESA equipped Su-30 or  Su-35 antenna plate can be mechanically steered in order to enhance the quite limited FOW typical of the ESA radars, in an Aesa radar this possibility is much more difficult to achieve.
    Actually, no steerable AESA antenna is still in active service and as it can be seen in the Raven radar for Gripen E/F this future capacity cost a lot in terms of maximum number of emitters you can put in a given space.
    Su-57 resolve the issue through side arrays but such a solution is obviously out of question for legacy frames.


    Last edited by marcellogo on Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  dino00 Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:31 pm

    A pair of multi-purpose Su-30SM fighters will join the squadron of the air regiment of the Western Military District (ZVO), based in the Kursk region.

    More
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201809261818-mil-ru-14k5r.html
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:06 am

    I do believe one of the Indian complaints was the Su-57 radar isn't powerful enough.
    Not the sort of thing you could expect Russia to go round admitting publicly though.

    Which model were they shown?

    If the Indians only want to spend a few billion on this corroboration I would understand the Russians now showing their best silver...

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