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    Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:11 pm

    IF anyone is interested in Russian GaN modules:

    https://niiet.ru/wp-content/uploads/%D0%9F%D0%9F9139%D0%901.pdf
    https://niiet.ru/goods/tranzmod/gan-development
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:38 am

    Some news on the Photonic Radar

    Russia has created a 3D-radar of a new type

    In Russia created a prototype radar based on technology of radio photons. It will issue information in the form of three-dimensional images.

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 7 1568305556_jekrana-2019-09-12-v-19_24_29

    The Russian army may soon get a new type of radar that is able more effectively than traditional radars to identify targets even under conditions of jamming. The fundamental difference between radiophonic locators is that the signal processing is realized with the aid of optics, and not by the microwave electronics.

    New technology creates a 3D image of the object, its three-dimensional portrait, and allows to determine its type. It is expected that in the next few years radiophotonic radars will be installed on the promising multifunctional fighters of the new generation.

    The first prototype of the radar based on discrete radiophonic elements already created, has informed "Izvestia" the head of JSC "RTI" Maxim Kuzyuk. According to sources of "Izvestiya", the Ministry of defence takes part in trials of the new type radar.

    The promising technology has several advantages. First and foremost, it is the size of the new locator – it is assumed that their size will be substantially less. In addition, they are reliable. Thirdly, more resistant to electromagnetic radiation.

    At the moment the company develops the technology and carries out tests while looking for a new component database. In particular, the developers talk about the need for photonic integrated circuits.

    https://topwar.ru/162371-v-rossii-sozdan-3d-radar-novogo-tipa.html
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:46 am

    People talk a lot about AESA this and that but dont actually know how any of that shit works.

    Its basic physics - Energy Input vs Energy Output.  AESA has its benefits in terms of being able to be loaded with elements that would in theory increase detection range and tracking range.  But it always comes out to the energy required.  The modules don't power themselves.  Issue too is efficiency and capabilities.  Hence why its been stated time and time again that the Irbis-E radar itself is the most powerful airborne radar currently in use due to its long range track/detection (400km).  N036 is Irbis-E in full AESA rather than Hybrid (Irbis-E).  Its detection/Track range is about the exact same - 400km.  Because in the end, whats powering it.

    The future looks interesting not in what AESA is but about Quantum Radar (Photonics/ROFAR) and so far it is both Russia and China that have working prototypes.  Be it ground based but overall prototypes of the technology since KRET is working very hard and has pumped in so much money towards it.  That is what raised speculation as to why Russia never bothered in the recent past in investing heavily into AESA because they speculated that they would make the leap from PESA to ROFAR.  Which is similar in its approach from going from basic ESA/Mechanical scan to PESA jump for most of its jets.  Hybrid (Bars family) was actually the closing gap that is created from AESA/PESA comparison so that Russia didn't spend a fortune but ended up with a rather powerful radar.

    It wouldn't have made sense to invest so damn much into something that they would have phased out within a decade anyway.  Those 10W modules sound great but get beaten out by GaN 50W modules (which Russia makes as I pointed out in this thread) and that is only recent development.

    Because as I said - Russia makes AESA radars and had them in service for many years now.  They use AESA elements for many years.  But their desire to use them in fighter jets was very low.  They obviously know far more than the rest of us thats for sure.  The Su-57 foray into AESA use is more in line for marketing to be frank.  Same with stealth.  The world market is going that route - hence why they are pushing for Su-57 for external market so much more than domestic because recall what Borisov did say - that Su-35 is more than enough as seen from tests and actual use.  While Su-57 is great, it really isn't much better and it costs more.  Some advantages at the current moment (LPI mode which I don't think is all that impressive tbh, stealth features that newer VHF and UHF radar has no issue detecting) that make them useful against conventional radar systems.  But overall, a rather obselete demand in modern and future warfare.

    There is a reason why the US is looking back at the SR-71 jets and looking to develop SR-72 - its speed. Stealth is now compromised concept. Now they are going back to the drawing board and looking and older concepts that may make sense today.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:07 pm

    Show me a Rafale that is carrying the RBE2-AA radar.  They say its in service but yet never seen one.  All there is mention is Rafale international which mentions by 2014 but thats it.  And its performance is rather lackluster of 200km range for a fighter sized target.  If it is actually in use, then that is good.  But so far from what I have heard, it wasn't or in very limited use. RBE2 nad RBE2-AA are decent radars but the reduced cost as mentioned in Rafale international is questionable at best.

    And after the price issue, India is having a hard time trying to justify its purchase of 36 let alone the 140+ they needed initially.

    But as I said, if you are correct in that they have a bunch of them flying, then I admit I am wrong.  But due to cost of the jet and the size of the radar, and its overall performance, leaves me a bit unastonished in its capabilities which leads me to believe the older radars that are PESA arent so bad idea. I stand by this with even saying the Zhuk-A, AM, AME performance isn't really all that great either. Over 1,000 T/R Modules and still about 160km range.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:58 pm

    French ordered 60 for their rafale and tey have ~100 rafale in service. First one was delivered in 2013. It's much better than the older rafale's radar.

    Indians are stupid. They don't know what they want. The deal was 126 rafale to be produced in india with off-sets, and rafales to be build in india. But they also wanted Dassault to be responsible of the quality, so if the rafale build by indian suck then dassault pays the reparation. French told them to go fuck themseleves. And then ended up buying rafales directly from dassault.

    Its performances are very good. 200km against fighter jets, 140km against a cargo plane from rear and 220 from the front. More than enough to use the meteor at max range.

    Zhuk have more or less the same performance.that's not my point anyway.

    It is just annoying to read how US stealth and aesa suck but when Russia uses the exact same tech 20 years after it becomes a wonderful technology.
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:18 pm

    Finally a rational post on the querelle about Su-57 instead of the usual ranting.
    I stayed outside it n order not to fan flames already too high or to appear one sided.
    Let'try to make a sum of all I would have said along the way.
    No one can deny the huge technological advancement the F-22 has bring in modern military aviation:Stealth, AESA, 2D trust vectoring (still an unicum west of the fence), MADL etc, etc,etc...and all of this from 2005
    What is almost undeniable the same way is that a.t.c. for what it come to production numbers, maintenance cost, operative readiness, flexibility of use and capacity of being deployed overseas and operating in a multinational environment were and for the most still are today just awful.
    Justification that 187 F-22 can do the work of 700+ F15 A to D is just ludicrous, if it would hold any ground they would have been permanently deployed some of them in almost one between Kadena, Lakenheath and Incirklik or Ahmad al-Jaber not at Langley or Eglin.
    To put it short they were probably over-engineered and deliberately pushing too much above the tech possibilities of their time, resulting in something having over the top performance but at expense of reliability and operational flexibility.

    The greatest fault of all this was however not IMHO in the plane itself but in the fact that in the pursuit of such a Wunderwaffe they deliberately avoided to develop and acquire any advanced version of the planes they already got in service, like instead the USN have done with the Super Hornet, fearing such a move would put in danger of cancellation the troubled F-22.

    And not, a simple modernization program of existing airplane is not a viable option: their frames are just too old and overused to allow such a refurbishing, let alone to enhance their performances in order to match those of existing 4+ and 4++ planes.

    And again, not: an AESA antenna, although surely a definite advancement, is in itself not sufficent at all to close the gap, it can increase performances compared to legacy radars but even now the conventional radar of Typhoon and Su-27SM exceed those of the ones they plan to install on F-16.

    So, they are so desperate to plan acquisition of 80 F-15EX for the ANG(!), eight years after the closure of F-22 line.


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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:44 pm

    And he has said that the Russians are not as far behind and you try to make out, they understand AESA radar technology and chose not to introduce it the way the US has introduced it.


    Isos wrote:Oh really ? I have the feeling they want aesa radar for everything now. Jets, ships, EW... Just like the US.


    You have wrong feeling Wink  

    For first some historical coordinates.
    Isos when at the beginning of '80 НИИП completed and serial produced the first at world fighter phased array with electronically controlled beam (Заслон for interceptor МиГ-31) it caused a true turmoil in military field ; the foreign interest for that unique breakthrough was well represented in the spy operation executed with the fundamental (technical designs and test documentation since development phase) contribution of the traitor A.Г. Толкачёв; a great portion of that documentation was passed to Northrop Grumman for their EAR and incoming URR programs.


    НИИП unmatched competences do not disappeared suddenly at the end of '90 years but, exactly like great majority of others domestic Institutes engaged in other different scientifical and engineering specific fields (and the shown and ....still not shown....latests military products exibiting a wide technological lead in comparison with any other country on this planet are an hard proof of that) preserved entirely its scientific capital simply "freezing" each subsequent R&D program to mere prototype realization before passing to a new research project.

    Obviously this practice indeed created, in some fields, among which just radar products, an effective lag in comparison with some of the most advanced competitors, but this lag was deliberatly wholly limited to the construction engineering, modification and debugging phases of single products because when the advancement of the theoretical acquisistions allow a new "generations" of products with performances several times greater than the predecessors to be created on a different elementary component basis this type of lag can be totally eliminated and rather would be possible even to greatly overcome your main competitors.

    This is exactly what is happening under your eyes Isos in those years (with a time window already precisely identified since federation's military development strategic planning of half of fist decade of the 2000 years) with unmatched breakthroughs and products without foreign corresponding in hypersonic, high coherent beams, plasma dynamics, nuclear reactor miniaturization, new generations of materials with unique mechanical, thermal resilience, conductivity and optical characteristic, propulsions and others encompassing high-tech industry elemental basis up to startegic defense still not revealed.  

    Returning to the subject in question specialists at НИИП, taking into account both the huge inexplorated potential of ПФАР (PESA radar in western denomination) and the terribly high costs, very slow production and technical problems related to the production of АФАР (AESA radar) with the technological production means of '90 and 2000 years , at the unique benefits of only a greater relieability and slightly better resilence to EW, decided to fully exploit ПФАР technology before shifting to a new design (АФАР or a different one) when its cost-efficiency parameters would be granted by a new level of construction technology basis.

    The wisdom of this approach was proved by the fact that at today the radar at world with the higher radiated power, target detection and acquisition range performances is a domestic ПФАР (Н035 «Ирбис» mounted on Су-35С) not a foreign АФАР and while surely the latter show increased reliability and counter-EW performances ,as proved by Н036 program, is contemporaneously true that Federation's Ministery of Defense at today's costs still do not consider absolutely those increased features worthy of the higher financiary burden !

    An АФАР on current elementary basis and constructive design is considered in our Institutes today nothing more than a necessary transient step toward a completely new line, with performances and cost-efficiency ratio on a completely new level, that will re-establish our historical lead in the sector after a "pause" of a pair of decades and possibly involve also the complete renovation ,at full damage of our competitors, of the field of major historical weakness of our military and ,even more, civilian industry.....  

    The portion of research allocations for the development of today publicized АФАР of domestic production is really the minimum possible to realize a single line of products.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:24 pm

    I transferred the discussion for radars here so as not to be lost in Su-57 threads
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    Post  Hole on Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:27 pm

    Reason No. 1 why the geniuses at the Potomac switched all radar production to AESA: much higher cost = more money for the MIC.
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    Post  kvs on Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:47 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:And he has said that the Russians are not as far behind and you try to make out, they understand AESA radar technology and chose not to introduce it the way the US has introduced it.


    Isos wrote:Oh really ? I have the feeling they want aesa radar for everything now. Jets, ships, EW... Just like the US.


    You have wrong feeling Wink  

    For first some historical coordinates.
    Isos when at the beginning of '80 НИИП completed and serial produced the first at world fighter phased array with electronically controlled beam (Заслон for interceptor МиГ-31) it caused a true turmoil in military field ; the foreign interest for that unique breakthrough was well represented in the spy operation executed with the fundamental (technical designs and test documentation since development phase) contribution of the traitor A.Г. Толкачёв; a great portion of that documentation was passed to Northrop Grumman for their EAR and incoming URR programs.


    НИИП unmatched competences do not disappeared suddenly at the end of '90 years but, exactly like great majority of others domestic Institutes engaged in other different scientifical and engineering specific fields (and the shown and ....still not shown....latests military products exibiting a wide technological lead in comparison with any other country on this planet are an hard proof of that) preserved entirely its scientific capital simply "freezing" each subsequent R&D program to mere prototype realization before passing to a new research project.

    Obviously this practice indeed created, in some fields, among which just radar products, an effective lag in comparison with some of the most advanced competitors, but this lag was deliberatly wholly limited to the construction engineering, modification and debugging phases of single products because when the advancement of the theoretical acquisistions allow a new "generations" of products with performances several times greater than the predecessors to be created on a different elementary component basis this type of lag can be totally eliminated and rather would be possible even to greatly overcome your main competitors.

    This is exactly what is happening under your eyes Isos in those years (with a time window already precisely identified since federation's military development strategic planning of half of fist decade of the 2000 years) with unmatched breakthroughs and products without foreign corresponding in hypersonic, high coherent beams, plasma dynamics, nuclear reactor miniaturization, new generations of materials with unique mechanical, thermal resilience, conductivity and optical characteristic, propulsions and others encompassing high-tech industry elemental basis up to startegic defense still not revealed.  

    Returning to the subject in question specialists at НИИП, taking into account both the huge inexplorated potential of ПФАР (PESA radar in western denomination) and the terribly high costs, very slow production and technical problems related to the production of АФАР (AESA radar) with the technological production means of '90 and 2000 years , at the unique benefits of only a greater relieability and slightly better resilence to EW, decided to fully exploit ПФАР technology before shifting to a new design (АФАР or a different one) when its cost-efficiency parameters would be granted by a new level of construction technology basis.

    The wisdom of this approach was proved by the fact that at today the radar at world with the higher radiated power, target detection and acquisition range performances is a domestic ПФАР (Н035 «Ирбис» mounted on Су-35С) not a foreign АФАР and while surely the latter show increased reliability and counter-EW performances ,as proved by Н036 program, is contemporaneously true that Federation's Ministery of Defense at today's costs still do not consider absolutely those increased features worthy of the higher financiary burden !

    An АФАР on current elementary basis and constructive design is considered in our Institutes today nothing more than a necessary transient step toward a completely new line, with performances and cost-efficiency ratio on a completely new level, that will re-establish our historical lead in the sector after a "pause" of a pair of decades and possibly involve also the complete renovation ,at full damage of our competitors, of the field of major historical weakness of our military and ,even more, civilian industry.....  

    The portion of research allocations for the development of today publicized АФАР of domestic production is really the minimum possible to realize a single line of products.

    Thank you for your input. Russia once again demonstrates its resilience and potential by weathering an economic and political system replacement with a depression worse than
    anything seen during the 1930s and worse than the impact of WWII on the USSR. But the chauvinist clowns from the west never acknowledge the impact of the system transition.
    If NATO had undergone such a transition, it would likely have collapsed back to the 1700s level.

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    Post  thegopnik on Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:53 am

    I want to make this very clear on this board. Photonic radars are not the same as quantum radars. Quantum radars detect targets by using some method called quantum entanglement by splitting a photon in half and comparing the one in the microwave state and the other in the quantum state to find the original reflected source(which is really god damn hard to do right now). Photonic radars remove noise using lasers instead of electronic means like a conventional radar that uses MMICs. Quantum radars use photons but just because it does, does not mean its the same as a photonic radar. KRET, RTI or even some news agencies would have at least mentioned quantum radars just once out of all the articles, their company articles, etc but they have not because photonic radars are not quantum radars. But photonic radars or FICs based radars are still far superior to AESA MMIC based radars.

    Also FICs and MMICs are as different as apples and oranges just because one is superior in one field does mean they are ahead in the other.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:51 am

    So, moving on.

    Here is what the latest iteration of Zhuk-A looks like.

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 7 LmPpMUm

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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:39 pm

    Isos wrote:I'm still neutral. I never said russia makes shit stuff and west very good one. It's just annoying that some people here can't even accept that US and generaly western stuff is sometime better than russian and they have some advanced in r&d than russia thanks to a better eco situation and far greater investement.



    This is a genuinely free place and also critic positions, by part of anyone, is well accepted also when not shared.

    What someone here is attempting to suggest is that general situation with influence in the public information media world (above all in "western" based) about military subjects is exact opposite of what you seem to allude Wink

    In particular influence of some persistently repeated "half truth" or patentely false notions that with time become accepted as true, bypassing critical thinking, (the basis of modern western PR operation doctrine) have, in the opinion of several contributors here, caused some ,but not obviously all, of your positions to be based on wrong assumptions or "false symmetry" mistakes.


    Let begin with the real , or for better say the true historical center, of Federation's military and civilian industrial complex weakness : electronic component basis and particularly microprocessor .

    This element ,surely important but still representing a proportionally minuscle fraction of the scientifical and engineering capital involved in the creation of the most up-to-date military products, is literally used by western propaganda institutions not only to create the necessary "reality radications" for theirs attacks on the image of competitors ,enormously overbloating their importance among the parameters of new products through the use of continuously repeated "coded words", but also to cover the gigantic lags, in an enormous amount of others much more relevant scientifical fields, that they suffer in comparison with theirs most advanced competitors  

    So when, for example, present a "new" missile (not rarely nothing more than a modification of products used and created for other tasks) with its relative launcher US firms, among coded words like "dominance" and "superiority", avoid at any cost to notice that, cause in reality the immense scientifical lags accumulated against its main competitor in aerodynamics modeling, material science, elctgromagnetic interference modeling, mathematical modeling of not satelite-dependant navigation, mechanical solutions for the launchers etc..etc...etc.... theirs products show, in comparison with domestic products  embarassing low range of engagement, average speed, time of delivery, EW susceptibility, navigation method fraility, warhead's destructive power, average cost and time to construct, time to lauch and to egress from launch's point and so on and on while turning the entire presentation around its "joint" , "data sharing", "network-integrated" renovated electronic content.

    We are very near to a true tectonic change just in this area of historical western lead - representing also the foundation of theirs civilian high-tech sector- that will force theirs entire industrial complex ,with all the related production lines, to be literally erased and be reconstructed on a new basis and let me say that at today the US ,putting the thing midly, is not well placed in the scientifical race toward this new era of the sector and anyway the costs of the reconversion will be for them truly incalculable.

    All the others area of theirs scientifical lags , that as already said are not only much more basis-science-intensive but also significantly more relevant , in all those years, have not only not shown any sign of reduction with us but rather the opposite tendency, that mostly thanks to the general borious ,self-praising aptitude of US culture.

    Neo let return to some of your assertion

    1) Western AESA radars are "superior" ....... and russian fanboys criticized stealth and AESA as shit and useless technology but now russia use it everywhere.

    Someone should begin to ask to itself in what parameters a latest western serially produced АФАР for fighter aircraft is superior to a latest domestic serially produced ПФАР of the same type; it would suddenly discover that the former widely suffer against the latter in cost, average radiated power, sidelobe performances, detection field of view, weapon guidance off-vector of motion angle and, above all, detection and lock-on range while surpassing the latter in reliability, beam agility and time of interleaving air and ground attack mode.

    The objective observation of the performance data say to us that choices made by part of domestic Institutes to proceed in the capitalization of the possibilities still offered by ПФАР,  have produced ,in the same time window taken into consideration, a radar product costing a fraction of the best foreign samples surpassing them in the first series of parameters while conceding in the second.

    Now Isos do you believe that capability to detect potential menaces at longer range , cover contemporaneously a significantly bigger air space sector and guide medium range and long range missiles while moving contemporaneously long a tangential evasion vector (so to put enemy missiles out of effective kill range) is surpassed by reliability and beam agility of a much more costly АФАР ?
    If the response to this question is not you have realized the rational of develop at maximum the possibilities of ПФАР.

    Now the quewstion of АФАР (or for better say АФАР based on today elementary MMIC component).

    Contrarely to the western media induced notion (that Federation attempt today to follow the same road of the US in АФАР) in wide majority of Russian Federation Institutes the road chosen by western radioelectronic specialists with АФАР was considered a big mistake at the time when the technology was immature and incredibly costly and is considered a solution with a short future, under a mere performance point of view, today that MMIC costs has reached a somewhat affordable level.

    The prevalent research and development orientation in the Federation was toward a radar-"electronic" technology allowing the shaping and merging of the radiating and receiving elements directly in the structure of the vehicle with an increase of performance at least an order of magnitude greater in comparison with the most advanced projected foreign samples constructed with today technology.

    From that orientation born nore than a decade ago the "РОФАР" program that is today at advanced stage (5 of 7) of development.
    Also today anyone can notice like for T-50 , that was conceived from the beginning of ПАК ФА program for those new generation arrays fused in the structure, the АФАР of different wavelenght (as said actual technology do not allow even by far the desired spectrum wideness) are placed in different position of the aircraft to offer some kind of elementary mimic of the capabilities that will be integrated with the projected new radio-optical arrays.

    There is nothing more far from western approach than Federation one Very Happy
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    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:34 pm

    Isos wrote: Russia waited for aesa to be cheaper (and for stealth too I presume ? ). Is it correct?


    Not, the Federation Institutes not expected АФАР, rather having pioneered electronically scanned array and computed, at reason, that improvement in ПФАР technology would have granted superiority in the most important parameters over coevian АФАР at a fraction of the cost, design today АФАР for fighter aircraft -multi band ones- only as a transient solution waiting for the completion of omni band vehicle-blended radars from the "РОФАР" program ,with a level of performace a whole order of magnitude superior to the most advanced АФАР and ПФАР today operative worldwide.

    About the so called "stealth" technology i have wrote several times about its origin in the Soviet times with hundreds of publications by part of dozen of titan names of Soviet Science the majority of which is still today covered by State's secret and how this very deep theoretical understanding of the Physics involved and all the related complex mathematical modeling (well beyond what publied with Soviet Scientifical Commision approval by comrade П.Я́. Уфи́мцев with itsd physical theory of diffraction that also thanks to its personal involvment have given birth in the USA to the modern low observable vehicles) without any peer, allow our Institutes to compute with almost absolute accuracy the effective scattering area of any object today produced abroad or domestically and those effective area of scattering are often even 2 or 3 order of magnitude greater than the comical figures usually circulating in public environment or for PR purposes.

    Therefore none more than us know the real....instead of phantasious..... impact of the "stealth" on the detection and acquisition ranges when confronted with advanced radars and at different bands, an effect that is doomed to reduce even furtherly in the next decade.
    Therefore you will never see a domestic military product ,not now nad even less in the future, that will sacrifice other most important and long standing parameters features to reduce effective area of scattering over the threshold where it become advantageous only for the company producing it.




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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:51 pm

    Deleted a lot of off topic bollocks, and moved it to this thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7216p725-talking-bollocks-thread-2
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    Post  william.boutros on Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:Deleted a lot of off topic bollocks, and moved it to this thread:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7216p725-talking-bollocks-thread-2

    Thank you

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