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    China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

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    nemrod

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    China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:33 am

    http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/03/05/sukhois_shift_the_balance_of_power_in_the_asia-pacific_22679.html

    Those who know the history of fighters, won't be supprised. Most of historians know very well the truth, Russia, -before the Soviet Union- always have exceptionnal fighters. No use to reminder the wonderfull Sturmoviks, Mig 15, Mig 17, Mig 19, Mig 21, Mig 23, etc...
    And US have never the possibility to confront Soviet Union, because they could not afford despite the fact that US propaganda tried to persuade us with the contrary. It is no use to dwell about the genius of russian scientists, because it was the russia's culture .

    The news nowadays are the fact that Russia is ready to buy its high tech to other countries that produced immediatly a shift of balance of power. We were not aware, for that reason it is important to know this fact.
    If an aircraft carrier is not able to confront a country's air fleet, because this country has Fulcrum, Flanker, and Sam, and this figthers bombers inside could be blown before they reach the country, the vessel could be easily sunk, this complexe and very expensive hardware is useless. Hence, this is the begining of the end of US empire.

    This revolution discret revolution was made by Russia, and I think, even the russian, does not realize that they are shifting the balance nowadays, and the russians does not realize that they are still a great superpower. I think even many russian politicians have not trust in their power, despite the fact that US withdrew from Iraq, and now US politicians refuse to confront Syria, because of Russia's determination to help Damascus.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:16 pm

    Technology will not end US hegemony, but US FED and the rejection to bow down to the Petro Dollar will end US hegemony.
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:43 pm

    Excellent thread.
    US technology IS going down simply because industry needs oceans of cash and the corresponding determination.
    We are talking about a free fall here. It's a fact!



    They are back to 1870, to the pre industrial era. Problem of Russia is that by trying to imitate and flatter West they are following the same path,
    demonizing production, demonizing macho jobs, effeminating the society..
    so even to the few sectors where they have the advantage, like in the frontal military aviation, their dominance will be short lived.
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    nemrod

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    russian or chinese radars technology are largelly ahead all western design

    Post  nemrod on Mon May 05, 2014 10:09 pm

    During my youth, when I used to buy all -filthy - military newspapers that i could buy, I was taught again and again that soviets were starved by western technology, and they could not invent, only to copy. And soviets, could not do other things that to copy. They were prompt to tell us about every soviets spy. However seeing the story about Adolf Tolkachev it shows that is the complete contrary. The soviet design especially in radars area -where US usually claim that they are ahead- were largelly ahead. I suspect it is still the case nowadays, Iam near sure that russian or  chinese radars technology are largelly ahead all western design.



    The lessons are western claims are totally ridiculous, now, more than never the hearthlands are overpassing the loudmouth.
    Phazotron are far ahead the world in radars technology. As Russia is far ahead in vectoring thrust.

    PS: Untill few days ago, I've been ignoring this story.
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    GarryB

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 06, 2014 2:52 am

    Don't go from wrong to wrong.

    The west did lie and in lots of areas they were behind the Russians.

    But don't think for a minute that the West is behind in everything either.

    There are thousands of different technologies involved here and in some areas the West is ahead and some it is behind... there are many areas where the whole west is behind or ahead, and some areas where only some of the west is behind or ahead.

    For instance the only western country with decent ICBMs is the US. Russian ICBMs are more modern and likely ahead in technology terms of US missiles but there is no competition at all from western countries like Sweden or Norway... Chinese ICBM technology is ahead of most of the west in this case simply by default.

    The country that is ahead in a wide range of technologies changes day to day, though having AESA radars in test aircraft is not the same as having them in operational fighters.

    Having said that coming second often means avoiding fundamental mistakes... the US Space shuttle is like a C-130 transport plane, but with a huge fuel tank bolted to its belly and two huge solid rocket boosters mounted to get it moving.

    the result is a very expensive vehicle for taking 10 tons into orbit.

    the Soviet design... Buran is taken as being a copy but it is fundamentally totally different... it shares the external shape and flight profile of the shuttle... NASA spent 2 billion dollars testing all sorts of shapes and that was best... who was the Soviets to argue with that?

    The soviet shuttle however was a rocket... energia that had a 100 ton shuttle mounted on it. The difference is that the US shuttle was expensive to use and could only take up or bring back 10 tons of cargo. The solid rockets were expensive and toxic, while the fuel tank had to be recovered and panel beaten back into shape and checked and reused... more expense.

    The Soviet design meant if you were building a space station take off the shuttle and mount large 100 ton parts of your space station... the current ISS is about 300 odd tons... building it in three parts would make it vastly cheaper and easier as it would be largely assembled on the ground... launched and deployed in orbit.

    More to the point the Buran was a glider so it only has manouvering and reenty rocket engines so it can carry 20 tons of payload in an otherwise very similar design.

    The liquid propellent Energyia is much cheaper to use.

    the main problem was that the Soviets saw the US shuttle as a potential hypersonic bomber design so they built their own version at a time when there was no money for space, so when it was clear it was just a space shuttle the funding dried up the program died.

    Bit of a shame really as it was far superior to the US shuttle... it flew only once on fully automatic mode into space without a crew. It had an escape capsule design that probably would have saved the Challenger crew, but likely not the shuttle that was destroyed on reentry.

    Not that the US shuttle was rubbish, but each launch cost more than half a billion dollars... you could launch 100 Protons for that and still have change.


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    nemrod

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed May 07, 2014 11:57 am

    GarryB wrote:Don't go from wrong to wrong.

    The west did lie and in lots of areas they were behind the Russians.

    But don't think for a minute that the West is behind in everything either.

    There are thousands of different technologies involved here and in some areas the West is ahead and some it is behind... there are many areas where the whole west is behind or ahead, and some areas where only some of the west is behind or ahead....
    Garry, I've never meant at any moment the west is behind in all, neither the soviet was ahead in all.
    However, what I meant, is the west and especially US, claims that every soviet technology is far behind the western technology.
    In 80's and 90's before Internet arrived, I used to read in their -in reality, their filthy shit propaganda- newspapers, or their supposed tv documentaries that Soviet Union was in late in all areas, and when they could not match with western's technology they simply sent spies, and they steal whatever they could. This is what i used to read and used to see.

    Sorry Garry, but when you read that F-15 downed nearly 100 fighters against 0 losses, because Israel said that what do you think ?
    When you read F-16 downed at least 70 Migs against 0 losses, what would be your reaction ? And later after, you read -if it is possible-
    surreptitiously that during the 80's decade, there were nearly 70 ....accidents for F-16, and in ...middle east.
    Longtime after Desert Storm, you read that US had...at least 30 F-16 in accidents during....1991, especially during ...january an february.
    Several dozens of years after Desert Storm, you learn again surreptitiously, that a B-52 crashed in indian ocean, du to ...electrical faillures, during... 1991 especially ...jannuary, and february.

    Untill now we ignore the scale of Israelis/US losses, nevertheless,  a thing is sure, the scale of losses is far more important than what they said. And most of the aircrafts were downed by iraqi/serbian/syrian russian origin fighters, not du to Sam.

    I mean simply that neither the US hardware is null, or US pilots skills are null, not at all. By respect, I could never claim these kind of false things. On contrary, US pilots, as Nato pilots are very competents, however, soviet, or russian/chinese hardwares are/were not null, they match perfectly with western hardware reaching in most of the case the parity, if a skill personals are inside.

    Nowadays, thanks to Internet the all truth appears, and it was hard for them to still lie as they did for nearly 70 years. As I already said you, before registering in this forum I used to believe that Internet will confirm what I was taught. I -mistakenly- thougt that it is not worth to search, because Internet will confirm me what I believed. It is obvious that in war every parties will lie, as lies is part of the war, and pretending that US never lie, it is the hugest mistake, because they lie like any other parties.

    The Tolkachev's case confirm that Soviet Union was far step ahead in radars technologie. US stole the secret in order to create a -supposed- better AESA technology. Nevertheless during the 90's untill the mid 2000's it was possible that US was steap ahead because they wasted nearly 15 trillons of $ in their war machine, and had the best brains in the world to work for them, either you were arabs, german, chinese, indian, african, even russian brains. Meanwhile russian's military budget melted, and chinese economy was at that time only at the best 1/10 of US economy. It is possible that, and only at this time, US could pretend to get unmatchable weapons, this was what I believed.
    The facts prove it is no.
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    GarryB

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 08, 2014 1:33 am

    You just have to look at the US policy on friendly fire incidents in war... on particular incident has been made into a documentary for RT and the US admits they didn't investigate it properly and destroyed evidence because it became clear that Polish forces were likely responsible for the American death.

    The Poles provided a large number of soldiers for the conflict and the Pentagon didn't want to upset their allies with this investigation.

    Not far from that to having a plane shot down but not investigating it to protect the reputation of the company that makes that aircraft that is still a core component of the modern US military... so you blame it on an accident.


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    nemrod

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Thu May 08, 2014 11:49 am

    GarryB wrote:You just have to look at the US policy on friendly fire incidents in war... on particular incident has been made into a documentary for RT and the US admits they didn't investigate it properly and destroyed evidence because it became clear that Polish forces were likely responsible for the American death.
    Here you took a particular case, I talked about general case. Polish troops were not in Vietnam with US air force, neither in Iraq -1991-. If they were with US in Serbia, they did nothing to hide relating the -2, at least- F-117, and a B2A downed



    GarryB wrote:
    Not far from that to having a plane shot down but not investigating it to protect the reputation of the company that makes that aircraft that is still a core component of the modern US military... so you blame it on an accident.
    Indeed, I talked about a system that did all its possible to hide every casualites came from ennemy fires, mostly, from ennemies fighters.

    America claimed that none of its SR 71 was downed, because soviet sams, and soviet fighters could not reach this aircraft. However they declared several dozens of accidents. Mwahahahahahahaha  lol!  lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
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    Werewolf

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Werewolf on Tue May 20, 2014 12:41 pm

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    Flyingdutchman

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Tue May 20, 2014 12:45 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    This is what Airbornewolf sended me in private message!!

    BTW Is every aircraft radar turning like that when tracking an airplane? Like in minute 7. And what aircraft is that in 7;10 minutes?
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    Airbornewolf

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Airbornewolf on Tue May 20, 2014 2:57 pm

    yep the vid Werewolf posted is the one i send in the PM to Flyingdutchman Nemrod  Wink 
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    Hannibal Barca

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Tue May 20, 2014 3:00 pm

    Airbornewolf wrote:yep the vid Werewolf posted is the one i send in the PM to Flyingdutchman Nemrod  Wink 

    You have served in NATO, is this right? What was the general consensus about what the video says?
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue May 20, 2014 4:53 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    You know what's interesting about this vid is that while it's mostly true there's some inaccuracies (it maybe because it's a bit dated, but not entirely the whole reason).

    The claim that the U.S. having a clear cut BVR supremacy "up until now" is not accurate (outside of the F-22 LO status and a slight semiconductor and seeker advantage), due to the fact that Soviet/Russian BVR missiles always had superior kinematic performance which allowed them to have extreme ranges clearly superior to NATO BVR's. The K-100/172 Novator BVR missile is still in development and not in wide active service, which is ok because the R-33 and R-37 are in wide active service and have comparable BVR range to the K-100/172 and lets not forget that once the Mig-31 successor (reportedly the Mig-41) is created it is said to be able to fly high and sustain and super-cruise at mach 4.3 which will greatly enhance the kinematic performance of existing BVR missiles kinematic performance and see a significant increase in range (and the existing BVR's will also see significant modernization by then). The R-37 with a reported 398km range and the K-100/172 with a reported 400km range may see ranges exceed 600km's if fired by a Mig-41 flying high at mach 4.3.
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    Airbornewolf

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Airbornewolf on Tue May 20, 2014 7:10 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:
    Airbornewolf wrote:yep the vid Werewolf posted is the one i send in the PM to Flyingdutchman Nemrod  Wink 

    You have served in NATO, is this right? What was the general consensus about what the video says?

    i served in the ground forces of NATO, not in the airforce. i flew around in aircraft but mostly i was sitting in the back with the rest of the troops Wink. but i heard enough airforce personell that admit that the russian and chinese caught up with the West concerning technology and weaponry. and basically they complain about how the budget cuts and politicians ruined their air force. if the Dutch Goverment did not invested in the F-35 so much the air force propably went for the Typhoon, the dutch airforce and Thales (dutch weapon contractor) are not impressed with the F-35 performance. but the politicians of course lie their ass off and go force the airforce to buy them nonetheless.

    its a bit the situation everywhere within NATO. us guys involved in the fighting know it, the EU weapon contractors know it. but the Politicians and high ranking officers are so busy being the U.S its bitch and trying to get that little bit of approval from the white house they completely disregard what their own millitary's and industry tell them.

    and in general, i think its safe to say about 70 to 75 percent in the EU NATO does not consider Russia a threat. thats a result of sending your troops to an warzone based on lies and misinformation like Iraq and Afghanistan. Western politicians seem to develop instant amnesia about what really happened there, but the troops that went there do not forget so easily. witch thanks to Western illegal wars most of "us" NATO troops now are fammiliar with what really is going on.

    European NATO pilots have a good sense of the actual capability's of Russian aircraft, its just the NATO leadership and politicians that act like Russia is still flying rustbuckets that NATO can handle easily. i was suprised this youtube intell video described it as "accurate" as it was. even a former european NATO air force General warned in a public newspaper that the Russian aircraft now fly circles around our planes. when in the early 90's it was NATO flying circles around russian aircraft. as a figure of speech.
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    nemrod

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    The claim that the U.S. having a clear cut BVR supremacy "up until now" is not accurate

    Post  nemrod on Wed May 21, 2014 11:49 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:yep the vid Werewolf posted is the one i send in the PM to Flyingdutchman Nemrod  Wink 

    Thx to all about your videos and your very interresting and usefull comments. If you have other videos do not hesitate to post here.

    Last request, could someone explain us -if it is possible open a new topic about it- the american doctrine of US Air Force.

    Thx to all friends.  Very Happy 
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    nemrod

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    Are US Losing in weapons Race with Russia and China?

    Post  nemrod on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:38 pm

    Let's tell to Mr Hagel, the so-called US technological superioty is a mere myth.
    Since 1945, US never waged a war against a real, well armed, and comparable to american army. Let's recall to Mister Hagel, without the help of the Soviet Union US could never win against Wehrmacht. Germans were far ahead in tehnological area against US and UK. The sacrifice of 22 milions soviets allowed US to win. If germans did not loose the battle of Kursk, and Stalingrad, never US  dared a landng in Normandie. Despite this, US was near the disaster in Normandie, and in Ardennes battle.

    The truth, US superiority was du mostly because they outnumbered their opponents. It was the case in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia.



    http://presstv.com/detail/2014/09/04/377674/russia-china-closing-gap-with-us/


    Russia and China are increasingly closing the technology gap with the US military by developing weapons systems that challenge traditional US advantages, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said.

    Hagel was speaking Wednesday to members of the Southeastern New England Defense Industry Alliance at a conference on defense innovation, before a NATO summit expected to focus on Russia's deteriorating relations with the West and the need for the NATO alliance to boost military spending.

    The Pentagon chief warned that Moscow and Beijing are modernizing their armed services, including their electronic warfare and special operations capabilities,

    “China and Russia have been trying to close the technology gap by pursuing and funding long-term, comprehensive military modernization programs,” Hagel said. “They are also developing anti-ship, anti-air, counter-space, cyber, electronic warfare and special operations capabilities that appear designed to counter traditional US military advantages.”

    Russia and China have been rapidly increasing their military spending and have tested a series of sophisticated weapons, including radar-evading aircraft and anti-ship missiles that fly many times the speed of sound.

    Hagel also warned that terrorist groups are rapidly acquiring advanced weapons and unless the United States takes these threats seriously, American troops would be at grave risk on the battlefield.

    "We are entering an era where American dominance on the seas, in the skies, and in space — not to mention cyberspace — can no longer be taken for granted," said Hagel. "And while the United States continues to maintain a decisive military and technological edge over any potential adversary, our continued superiority is not a given."

    Hagel said the United States needs to invest wisely in the face of declining budgets in order to ensure its adversaries do not surpass the US military.
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    Mike E

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:42 pm

    The fact that they are starting to admit it says it all. They know that they have to step it up, and the F-35 and Ford-class isn't the way to do it!
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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Sep 05, 2014 6:45 am

    The problem is that Russia have the talent of making a thing with 80% fight power but 200% relability, 50% cost and 66% weight, compared to the U.S.

    Russia always remember the hard lesson in WWII that it is very important to maintain a wise balance between quality and quantity in order to be the most cost-effective. In most cases improving the proven work-horse is more practical than digging into a technological ambitious but risky model.

    As far as I know, the weapons of Israel are also developed in a similar way.
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    nemrod

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    Discussing Stealth technology

    Post  nemrod on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:29 am

    A couple of months, we had discussions here about Stealth technology, here is another pov, about experts concerning an evidence that everyone knows very well, the stealth technology does not work. The Subject is not only about the F-35, neither F-117, or B2A, F-22, but about the hoax of the stealth technology. If the US stealth aircrafts were successfully spotted by the old iraqis  radars in 1991. In Serbia, this could be the last war waged by stealth aircrafts, as several of them were spotted, and lead the destruction of few of them.

    And what about nowadays ? Chieftly when the new super computersof China and Russia are improving year after year, and are ready to be integrated inside modern radars -China will be followed next by Russia, and India too-. I assume that this technology was studied chieflty to attack countries poorly defended like Gaza, Sudan, Libya for example. But certainly not against Syria, neither Iran, or North Korea.





    Here is an example of the new chinese anti-stealth Radar




    news.usni.org/2014/07/29/chinese-russian-radars-track-see-u-s-stealth



    Chinese and Russian Radars On Track To See Through U.S. Stealth


    An F-35B Lightning II aircraft takes off from the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD-1) in 2013. A former senior Navy official told USNI News its stealth protection could be pierced by new Chinese and Russian radars. US Navy Photo

    A growing trend in Russian and Chinese radar could make U.S. stealth fighters easier to see and — more importantly — easier to target for potential adversaries, a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News.

    U.S. fighters — like the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — are protected by stealth technology optimized for higher frequency targeting radars but not for lower frequency radars.

    Until now a focus on higher frequencies have not been a problem because low frequency radars have traditionally been unable to generate “weapons quality tracks.”

    JSF and the F-22 are protected from higher frequencies in the Ku, X, C and parts of the S bands. But both jets can be seen on enemy radars operating in the longer wavelengths like L, UHF and VHF.

    In other words, Russian and Chinese radars can generally detect a stealth aircraft but not clearly enough to give an accurate location to a missile

    But that is starting to change.

    “Acquisition and fire control radars are starting to creep down the frequency spectrum,” a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News on Monday.
    With improved computing power, low frequency radars are getting better and better at discerning targets more precisely.

    “I don’t see how you long survive in the world of 2020 or 2030 when dealing with these systems if you don’t have the lower frequency coverage,” the former official said.

    Further, new foreign rival warships are increasingly being built with both high and low frequency radars.

    “Prospective adversaries are putting low frequency radars on their surface combatants along with the higher frequency systems,” the former official said.

    Chinese warships like the Type 52C Luyang II and Type 52D Luyang III have both high and low frequency radars, the former official said.

    The first of the People’s Army Liberation Navy Type 052D Luyang III destroyer. PLAN Photo

    “If you don’t have the signature appropriate to that [radar], you’re not going to be very survivable,” he said.
    “The lower frequency radars can cue the higher frequency radars and now you’re going to get wacked.”

    Nor will the Navy’s vaunted Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) do much to help the situation. Firstly, given the proliferation of low frequency radars, there are serious questions about the ability of the F-35C’s survivability against the toughest of air defenses, the former official said.

    “All-aspect is highly desirable against this sort of networked [anti-air] environment,” he said.
    Secondly, the Chinese and Russians are almost certain to use cyber and electronic attack capabilities to disrupt NIFC-CA, which is almost totally reliant on data links.

    “I question how well all these data links are going to work in a heavily contested [radio frequency] environment where you have lots and lots of jamming going on,” the former official said.

    Moreover, in certain parts of the world potential adversaries —China and Russia— are developing long-range anti-radiation missiles that could target the central node of the NIFC-CA network—the Northrop Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.

    E-2D Hawkeye from the Pioneers of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 1 on Aug. 27, 2013. US Navy Photo

    “I think the anti-radiation homing weapons that are passive and go long-range are very, very difficult for the NIFC-CA concept to contend with,” the former official said.

    Fundamentally, the Navy’s lack of an all-aspect broadband stealth jet on the carrier flight deck is giving fuel to advocates of a high-end Unmanned Carrier Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft that can tackle the toughest enemy air defenses.

    Without such capability, the Navy’s carrier fleet will fade into irrelevance, the former official said.

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    nemrod

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    Why US won't able to contain and to follow Russia and China in weapon industry next.

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:01 pm


    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -? What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:13 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -?  What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.
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    nemrod

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:37 pm

    We are on verge of US collapse next
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-15/bond-yields-plunge-most-10-months-stocks-btfescalation
    It won't be long, it is sure there are something turning very bad for US.



    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, ...
    MCTR does not forbid Russia to go on its research and developments at first. And this kind of -western- agreements has no future next, as US -violated at first its commitments- provide the Daesh and Nosra terrorists with sophisticated anti-tanks, anti-aircrafts weapons. I suspect Russia, beside China will be the next super powers ahead of West.


    AlfaT8 wrote:
    ...and China ... doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.
    If  near all experts are agree in one area, they are all assess that China will be at least the next superpower. Do not mention the past when China was near the stone age, without ressources -not know-how from its brighting scientists, but lack of money-, old fashionned countries without capabilities to produce stone -refer to the desastrous Mao plan in the end of 50's-. Nowadays all are changing and quickly, for example in order to catch up its late in fighters engine, they are ready to invest more than 25 billions of $. It is more than 80% of frencheese defense budget. Evidently they will arrive, evindently they will overcome to all difficulties in all areas. Do not forget nowadays, they have the most important reserve in money, and in scientists. It is a mere matter of time.
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    Mike E

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:59 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    nemrod wrote:
    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -?  What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) *doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.*

    Well, just look at their nuclear subs... They can make great equipment, but that doesn't mean they do.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:25 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    MCTR does not forbid Russia to go on its research and developments at first.
    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90.

    And this kind of -western- agreements has no future
    True, but Russia hasn't realized this yet, and is still cooperating, hell, they even go so far as to not sell the S-300 systems to Iran/Syria, most likely Russia is using the MCTR to try and avoid an Arms race.

    next, as US -violated at first its commitments- provide the Daesh and Nosra terrorists with sophisticated anti-tanks, anti-aircrafts weapons.
    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy. Mad

    I suspect Russia, beside China will be the next super powers ahead of West.
    Agree, all indication points to that.

    nemrod wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    ...and China ... doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.
    If  near all experts are agree in one area, they are all assess that China will be at least the next superpower. Do not mention the past when China was near the stone age, without ressources -not know-how from its brighting scientists, but lack of money-, old fashionned countries without capabilities to produce stone -refer to the desastrous Mao plan in the end of 50's-. Nowadays all are changing and quickly, for example in order to catch up its late in fighters engine, they are ready to invest more than 25 billions of $. It is more than  80% of frencheese defense budget. Evidently they will arrive, evindently they will overcome to all difficulties in all areas. Do not forget nowadays, they have the most important reserve in money, and in scientists. It is a mere matter of time.
    Yep, i fully agree, that's why i said they don't have the capabilities yet (i also said, i kinda disagree with Garry on that one).
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    nemrod

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:00 pm

    In fact the purpose of my initial topic means, as US are in deep economic depression, it undoubtly impact on R&D' s of weapons' sector. Resulting by the late of US, and Russia will profit from this situation untill 2020's, in if not midlle 2030's, after that China will be the first.

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90.
    I ignored it concerns the SSN-24, however, the actual russian leaders are far to be idiots, as Gorbatchov, Yeltsin, Chernomidin, etc...were in the 1990's. If they could not implement these kind of projects, I think the R&D are far to be stopped. And these kind of missiles must be developped secretly into russian's super calculators, and are ready to be implement if the needs ask.



    True, but Russia hasn't realized this yet, and is still cooperating,...
    As I said above, the actual russian leaders are not idiots, they know how, and when to cooperate with who.


    ...hell, they even go so far as to not sell the S-300 systems to Iran/Syria, .....
    You and me know nothing about this subject. You and me learn, understand, and think about what we were said. And, one morning we wake up by seeing Iran has implemented a russian project as the S-300, or the SAM-6/11/18.
    It is obvious that Russia cooperated with Iran, and Syria, but noone knows



    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy. Mad
    I ignored that.



    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Yep, i fully agree, that's why i said they don't have the capabilities yet (i also said, i kinda disagree with Garry on that one).
    Iam not sure nowadays by the "yet".
    China in 1980 has nothing to see with China in the 50's. China in 2000 has nothign to see with China in 1980. China in 2010 has nothing to see with China in 2000. As I said in the end of 2000's, after the US cra$h in 2008, China understood quickly that its only assets will be its army, understood quickly and forsaw the US behaviour. At the end 2010 China has nearly 5.000 billions of $ of cash, beside its other thousand billions of $ of excedents. As its weak point was the fighter engines they decided officially to invest 25 billions $, officially, the reality is far largest, at least 30 billions, if not 40 billions. In this critical point China had to do all its possible to reach the level of Russia, and US. It seems they overcame, because their J-16 is run by their WS-10G, and the last photo of the J-20 was seen this fighter by its WS-15.
    Few years ago, I've seen an article wrote by an US specialist -he knew very well the chinese subject- that explained China in the 2015's in the critical fighter engine will be in the same level as US and Russia. Unfortunetly I lost this article. The WS-15 is now more powerfull than the F-22 's engine. For China it was the most important breaktrough.

    See this article :
    http://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/j-20/






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