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    China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

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    nemrod
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    China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:33 pm

    http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/03/05/sukhois_shift_the_balance_of_power_in_the_asia-pacific_22679.html

    Those who know the history of fighters, won't be supprised. Most of historians know very well the truth, Russia, -before the Soviet Union- always have exceptionnal fighters. No use to reminder the wonderfull Sturmoviks, Mig 15, Mig 17, Mig 19, Mig 21, Mig 23, etc...
    And US have never the possibility to confront Soviet Union, because they could not afford despite the fact that US propaganda tried to persuade us with the contrary. It is no use to dwell about the genius of russian scientists, because it was the russia's culture .

    The news nowadays are the fact that Russia is ready to buy its high tech to other countries that produced immediatly a shift of balance of power. We were not aware, for that reason it is important to know this fact.
    If an aircraft carrier is not able to confront a country's air fleet, because this country has Fulcrum, Flanker, and Sam, and this figthers bombers inside could be blown before they reach the country, the vessel could be easily sunk, this complexe and very expensive hardware is useless. Hence, this is the begining of the end of US empire.

    This revolution discret revolution was made by Russia, and I think, even the russian, does not realize that they are shifting the balance nowadays, and the russians does not realize that they are still a great superpower. I think even many russian politicians have not trust in their power, despite the fact that US withdrew from Iraq, and now US politicians refuse to confront Syria, because of Russia's determination to help Damascus.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:16 pm

    Technology will not end US hegemony, but US FED and the rejection to bow down to the Petro Dollar will end US hegemony.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Wed Apr 02, 2014 2:43 pm

    Excellent thread.
    US technology IS going down simply because industry needs oceans of cash and the corresponding determination.
    We are talking about a free fall here. It's a fact!



    They are back to 1870, to the pre industrial era. Problem of Russia is that by trying to imitate and flatter West they are following the same path,
    demonizing production, demonizing macho jobs, effeminating the society..
    so even to the few sectors where they have the advantage, like in the frontal military aviation, their dominance will be short lived.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:01 pm

    I blame urbanisation... here in New Zealand even though a large portion of our GDP comes from agriculture like wood exports (in our moderate climate a pine tree reaches maturity in 20-25 years), plus of course our enormous dairy and sheep farming industry, more than half of the population lives in just one city...

    And you should hear them whine about house prices or having to wait in traffic jams... but everything keeps getting centralised and all the NZ companies keep moving their HQs to the biggest city... it is stupid.


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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  macedonian on Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:01 am

    GarryB wrote:I blame urbanisation... here in New Zealand even though a large portion of our GDP comes from agriculture like wood exports (in our moderate climate a pine tree reaches maturity in 20-25 years), plus of course our enormous dairy and sheep farming industry, more than half of the population lives in just one city...

    And you should hear them whine about house prices or having to wait in traffic jams... but everything keeps getting centralised and all the NZ companies keep moving their HQs to the biggest city... it is stupid.

    Exactly.
    Very good point.

    We've got the same problem over here too.

    What's even stranger here is the fact that people who were born in rural areas and later moved to the capital to work in the factories during industrialization in communist times, have stayed on EVEN WHEN they lost their jobs and can't support themselves/their families anymore. So they just live from day to day in poverty.
    Most of them still own their land back in the village where they came from, but they almost never choose to go back and 'work the fields'.
    People became lazy, demoralized, and quite frankly - very stupid.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Regular on Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:51 pm

    macedonian wrote:
    GarryB wrote:I blame urbanisation... here in New Zealand even though a large portion of our GDP comes from agriculture like wood exports (in our moderate climate a pine tree reaches maturity in 20-25 years), plus of course our enormous dairy and sheep farming industry, more than half of the population lives in just one city...

    And you should hear them whine about house prices or having to wait in traffic jams... but everything keeps getting centralised and all the NZ companies keep moving their HQs to the biggest city... it is stupid.

    Exactly.
    Very good point.

    We've got the same problem over here too.

    What's even stranger here is the fact that people who were born in rural areas and later moved to the capital to work in the factories during industrialization in communist times, have stayed on EVEN WHEN they lost their jobs and can't support themselves/their families anymore. So they just live from day to day in poverty.
    Most of them still own their land back in the village where they came from, but they almost never choose to go back and 'work the fields'.
    People became lazy, demoralized, and quite frankly - very stupid.

    Oh common man. Sometimes working the land is no more profitable than working on minimal wage. Especially when there is idiotic controlling body and product realisation becomes lottery. Not anyone can do it. Not to mention it's hard work, it's no good if you get older or you have small family.
    I grew up in city but spent my holidays in countryside, went there for harvest and all. Now there is nothing left, even commie deportations and kolhoz didn't do such damage as EU.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  As Sa'iqa on Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:54 pm

    One word - productivity. Since antiquity there has been a trend for populations to concentrate in a few densely populated areas. Today a single farmer with modern machinery and knowledge can produce as much food as a few thousand subsistence farmers 1000 years ago. The same trend is being observed in industry - what required 10000 people 50 years ago can be done with a few hundred today. The reason why we don't see massive decentralization of populations is because we (still) can't produce everything at any place in the world so it makes sense to have lots of people gathered in s single big city.

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    russian or chinese radars technology are largelly ahead all western design

    Post  nemrod on Tue May 06, 2014 12:09 am

    During my youth, when I used to buy all -filthy - military newspapers that i could buy, I was taught again and again that soviets were starved by western technology, and they could not invent, only to copy. And soviets, could not do other things that to copy. They were prompt to tell us about every soviets spy. However seeing the story about Adolf Tolkachev it shows that is the complete contrary. The soviet design especially in radars area -where US usually claim that they are ahead- were largelly ahead. I suspect it is still the case nowadays, Iam near sure that russian or  chinese radars technology are largelly ahead all western design.



    The lessons are western claims are totally ridiculous, now, more than never the hearthlands are overpassing the loudmouth.
    Phazotron are far ahead the world in radars technology. As Russia is far ahead in vectoring thrust.

    PS: Untill few days ago, I've been ignoring this story.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 06, 2014 4:52 am

    Don't go from wrong to wrong.

    The west did lie and in lots of areas they were behind the Russians.

    But don't think for a minute that the West is behind in everything either.

    There are thousands of different technologies involved here and in some areas the West is ahead and some it is behind... there are many areas where the whole west is behind or ahead, and some areas where only some of the west is behind or ahead.

    For instance the only western country with decent ICBMs is the US. Russian ICBMs are more modern and likely ahead in technology terms of US missiles but there is no competition at all from western countries like Sweden or Norway... Chinese ICBM technology is ahead of most of the west in this case simply by default.

    The country that is ahead in a wide range of technologies changes day to day, though having AESA radars in test aircraft is not the same as having them in operational fighters.

    Having said that coming second often means avoiding fundamental mistakes... the US Space shuttle is like a C-130 transport plane, but with a huge fuel tank bolted to its belly and two huge solid rocket boosters mounted to get it moving.

    the result is a very expensive vehicle for taking 10 tons into orbit.

    the Soviet design... Buran is taken as being a copy but it is fundamentally totally different... it shares the external shape and flight profile of the shuttle... NASA spent 2 billion dollars testing all sorts of shapes and that was best... who was the Soviets to argue with that?

    The soviet shuttle however was a rocket... energia that had a 100 ton shuttle mounted on it. The difference is that the US shuttle was expensive to use and could only take up or bring back 10 tons of cargo. The solid rockets were expensive and toxic, while the fuel tank had to be recovered and panel beaten back into shape and checked and reused... more expense.

    The Soviet design meant if you were building a space station take off the shuttle and mount large 100 ton parts of your space station... the current ISS is about 300 odd tons... building it in three parts would make it vastly cheaper and easier as it would be largely assembled on the ground... launched and deployed in orbit.

    More to the point the Buran was a glider so it only has manouvering and reenty rocket engines so it can carry 20 tons of payload in an otherwise very similar design.

    The liquid propellent Energyia is much cheaper to use.

    the main problem was that the Soviets saw the US shuttle as a potential hypersonic bomber design so they built their own version at a time when there was no money for space, so when it was clear it was just a space shuttle the funding dried up the program died.

    Bit of a shame really as it was far superior to the US shuttle... it flew only once on fully automatic mode into space without a crew. It had an escape capsule design that probably would have saved the Challenger crew, but likely not the shuttle that was destroyed on reentry.

    Not that the US shuttle was rubbish, but each launch cost more than half a billion dollars... you could launch 100 Protons for that and still have change.


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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed May 07, 2014 1:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:Don't go from wrong to wrong.

    The west did lie and in lots of areas they were behind the Russians.

    But don't think for a minute that the West is behind in everything either.

    There are thousands of different technologies involved here and in some areas the West is ahead and some it is behind... there are many areas where the whole west is behind or ahead, and some areas where only some of the west is behind or ahead....
    Garry, I've never meant at any moment the west is behind in all, neither the soviet was ahead in all.
    However, what I meant, is the west and especially US, claims that every soviet technology is far behind the western technology.
    In 80's and 90's before Internet arrived, I used to read in their -in reality, their filthy shit propaganda- newspapers, or their supposed tv documentaries that Soviet Union was in late in all areas, and when they could not match with western's technology they simply sent spies, and they steal whatever they could. This is what i used to read and used to see.

    Sorry Garry, but when you read that F-15 downed nearly 100 fighters against 0 losses, because Israel said that what do you think ?
    When you read F-16 downed at least 70 Migs against 0 losses, what would be your reaction ? And later after, you read -if it is possible-
    surreptitiously that during the 80's decade, there were nearly 70 ....accidents for F-16, and in ...middle east.
    Longtime after Desert Storm, you read that US had...at least 30 F-16 in accidents during....1991, especially during ...january an february.
    Several dozens of years after Desert Storm, you learn again surreptitiously, that a B-52 crashed in indian ocean, du to ...electrical faillures, during... 1991 especially ...jannuary, and february.

    Untill now we ignore the scale of Israelis/US losses, nevertheless,  a thing is sure, the scale of losses is far more important than what they said. And most of the aircrafts were downed by iraqi/serbian/syrian russian origin fighters, not du to Sam.

    I mean simply that neither the US hardware is null, or US pilots skills are null, not at all. By respect, I could never claim these kind of false things. On contrary, US pilots, as Nato pilots are very competents, however, soviet, or russian/chinese hardwares are/were not null, they match perfectly with western hardware reaching in most of the case the parity, if a skill personals are inside.

    Nowadays, thanks to Internet the all truth appears, and it was hard for them to still lie as they did for nearly 70 years. As I already said you, before registering in this forum I used to believe that Internet will confirm what I was taught. I -mistakenly- thougt that it is not worth to search, because Internet will confirm me what I believed. It is obvious that in war every parties will lie, as lies is part of the war, and pretending that US never lie, it is the hugest mistake, because they lie like any other parties.

    The Tolkachev's case confirm that Soviet Union was far step ahead in radars technologie. US stole the secret in order to create a -supposed- better AESA technology. Nevertheless during the 90's untill the mid 2000's it was possible that US was steap ahead because they wasted nearly 15 trillons of $ in their war machine, and had the best brains in the world to work for them, either you were arabs, german, chinese, indian, african, even russian brains. Meanwhile russian's military budget melted, and chinese economy was at that time only at the best 1/10 of US economy. It is possible that, and only at this time, US could pretend to get unmatchable weapons, this was what I believed.
    The facts prove it is no.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 08, 2014 3:33 am

    You just have to look at the US policy on friendly fire incidents in war... on particular incident has been made into a documentary for RT and the US admits they didn't investigate it properly and destroyed evidence because it became clear that Polish forces were likely responsible for the American death.

    The Poles provided a large number of soldiers for the conflict and the Pentagon didn't want to upset their allies with this investigation.

    Not far from that to having a plane shot down but not investigating it to protect the reputation of the company that makes that aircraft that is still a core component of the modern US military... so you blame it on an accident.


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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Thu May 08, 2014 1:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:You just have to look at the US policy on friendly fire incidents in war... on particular incident has been made into a documentary for RT and the US admits they didn't investigate it properly and destroyed evidence because it became clear that Polish forces were likely responsible for the American death.
    Here you took a particular case, I talked about general case. Polish troops were not in Vietnam with US air force, neither in Iraq -1991-. If they were with US in Serbia, they did nothing to hide relating the -2, at least- F-117, and a B2A downed



    GarryB wrote:
    Not far from that to having a plane shot down but not investigating it to protect the reputation of the company that makes that aircraft that is still a core component of the modern US military... so you blame it on an accident.
    Indeed, I talked about a system that did all its possible to hide every casualites came from ennemy fires, mostly, from ennemies fighters.

    America claimed that none of its SR 71 was downed, because soviet sams, and soviet fighters could not reach this aircraft. However they declared several dozens of accidents. Mwahahahahahahaha  lol!  lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

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    Are US Losing in weapons Race with Russia and China?

    Post  nemrod on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:38 pm

    Let's tell to Mr Hagel, the so-called US technological superioty is a mere myth.
    Since 1945, US never waged a war against a real, well armed, and comparable to american army. Let's recall to Mister Hagel, without the help of the Soviet Union US could never win against Wehrmacht. Germans were far ahead in tehnological area against US and UK. The sacrifice of 22 milions soviets allowed US to win. If germans did not loose the battle of Kursk, and Stalingrad, never US  dared a landng in Normandie. Despite this, US was near the disaster in Normandie, and in Ardennes battle.

    The truth, US superiority was du mostly because they outnumbered their opponents. It was the case in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Serbia.



    http://presstv.com/detail/2014/09/04/377674/russia-china-closing-gap-with-us/


    Russia and China are increasingly closing the technology gap with the US military by developing weapons systems that challenge traditional US advantages, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said.

    Hagel was speaking Wednesday to members of the Southeastern New England Defense Industry Alliance at a conference on defense innovation, before a NATO summit expected to focus on Russia's deteriorating relations with the West and the need for the NATO alliance to boost military spending.

    The Pentagon chief warned that Moscow and Beijing are modernizing their armed services, including their electronic warfare and special operations capabilities,

    “China and Russia have been trying to close the technology gap by pursuing and funding long-term, comprehensive military modernization programs,” Hagel said. “They are also developing anti-ship, anti-air, counter-space, cyber, electronic warfare and special operations capabilities that appear designed to counter traditional US military advantages.”

    Russia and China have been rapidly increasing their military spending and have tested a series of sophisticated weapons, including radar-evading aircraft and anti-ship missiles that fly many times the speed of sound.

    Hagel also warned that terrorist groups are rapidly acquiring advanced weapons and unless the United States takes these threats seriously, American troops would be at grave risk on the battlefield.

    "We are entering an era where American dominance on the seas, in the skies, and in space — not to mention cyberspace — can no longer be taken for granted," said Hagel. "And while the United States continues to maintain a decisive military and technological edge over any potential adversary, our continued superiority is not a given."

    Hagel said the United States needs to invest wisely in the face of declining budgets in order to ensure its adversaries do not surpass the US military.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:42 pm

    The fact that they are starting to admit it says it all. They know that they have to step it up, and the F-35 and Ford-class isn't the way to do it!

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:45 am

    The problem is that Russia have the talent of making a thing with 80% fight power but 200% relability, 50% cost and 66% weight, compared to the U.S.

    Russia always remember the hard lesson in WWII that it is very important to maintain a wise balance between quality and quantity in order to be the most cost-effective. In most cases improving the proven work-horse is more practical than digging into a technological ambitious but risky model.

    As far as I know, the weapons of Israel are also developed in a similar way.

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    Discussing Stealth technology

    Post  nemrod on Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:29 pm

    A couple of months, we had discussions here about Stealth technology, here is another pov, about experts concerning an evidence that everyone knows very well, the stealth technology does not work. The Subject is not only about the F-35, neither F-117, or B2A, F-22, but about the hoax of the stealth technology. If the US stealth aircrafts were successfully spotted by the old iraqis  radars in 1991. In Serbia, this could be the last war waged by stealth aircrafts, as several of them were spotted, and lead the destruction of few of them.

    And what about nowadays ? Chieftly when the new super computersof China and Russia are improving year after year, and are ready to be integrated inside modern radars -China will be followed next by Russia, and India too-. I assume that this technology was studied chieflty to attack countries poorly defended like Gaza, Sudan, Libya for example. But certainly not against Syria, neither Iran, or North Korea.





    Here is an example of the new chinese anti-stealth Radar




    news.usni.org/2014/07/29/chinese-russian-radars-track-see-u-s-stealth



    Chinese and Russian Radars On Track To See Through U.S. Stealth


    An F-35B Lightning II aircraft takes off from the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD-1) in 2013. A former senior Navy official told USNI News its stealth protection could be pierced by new Chinese and Russian radars. US Navy Photo

    A growing trend in Russian and Chinese radar could make U.S. stealth fighters easier to see and — more importantly — easier to target for potential adversaries, a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News.

    U.S. fighters — like the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lighting II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) — are protected by stealth technology optimized for higher frequency targeting radars but not for lower frequency radars.

    Until now a focus on higher frequencies have not been a problem because low frequency radars have traditionally been unable to generate “weapons quality tracks.”

    JSF and the F-22 are protected from higher frequencies in the Ku, X, C and parts of the S bands. But both jets can be seen on enemy radars operating in the longer wavelengths like L, UHF and VHF.

    In other words, Russian and Chinese radars can generally detect a stealth aircraft but not clearly enough to give an accurate location to a missile

    But that is starting to change.

    “Acquisition and fire control radars are starting to creep down the frequency spectrum,” a former senior U.S. Navy official told USNI News on Monday.
    With improved computing power, low frequency radars are getting better and better at discerning targets more precisely.

    “I don’t see how you long survive in the world of 2020 or 2030 when dealing with these systems if you don’t have the lower frequency coverage,” the former official said.

    Further, new foreign rival warships are increasingly being built with both high and low frequency radars.

    “Prospective adversaries are putting low frequency radars on their surface combatants along with the higher frequency systems,” the former official said.

    Chinese warships like the Type 52C Luyang II and Type 52D Luyang III have both high and low frequency radars, the former official said.

    The first of the People’s Army Liberation Navy Type 052D Luyang III destroyer. PLAN Photo

    “If you don’t have the signature appropriate to that [radar], you’re not going to be very survivable,” he said.
    “The lower frequency radars can cue the higher frequency radars and now you’re going to get wacked.”

    Nor will the Navy’s vaunted Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) do much to help the situation. Firstly, given the proliferation of low frequency radars, there are serious questions about the ability of the F-35C’s survivability against the toughest of air defenses, the former official said.

    “All-aspect is highly desirable against this sort of networked [anti-air] environment,” he said.
    Secondly, the Chinese and Russians are almost certain to use cyber and electronic attack capabilities to disrupt NIFC-CA, which is almost totally reliant on data links.

    “I question how well all these data links are going to work in a heavily contested [radio frequency] environment where you have lots and lots of jamming going on,” the former official said.

    Moreover, in certain parts of the world potential adversaries —China and Russia— are developing long-range anti-radiation missiles that could target the central node of the NIFC-CA network—the Northrop Grumman E-2D Advanced Hawkeye.

    E-2D Hawkeye from the Pioneers of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 1 on Aug. 27, 2013. US Navy Photo

    “I think the anti-radiation homing weapons that are passive and go long-range are very, very difficult for the NIFC-CA concept to contend with,” the former official said.

    Fundamentally, the Navy’s lack of an all-aspect broadband stealth jet on the carrier flight deck is giving fuel to advocates of a high-end Unmanned Carrier Launched Airborne Surveillance and Strike (UCLASS) aircraft that can tackle the toughest enemy air defenses.

    Without such capability, the Navy’s carrier fleet will fade into irrelevance, the former official said.


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    Why US won't able to contain and to follow Russia and China in weapon industry next.

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:01 pm


    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -? What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:13 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -?  What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:37 pm

    We are on verge of US collapse next
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-15/bond-yields-plunge-most-10-months-stocks-btfescalation
    It won't be long, it is sure there are something turning very bad for US.



    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, ...
    MCTR does not forbid Russia to go on its research and developments at first. And this kind of -western- agreements has no future next, as US -violated at first its commitments- provide the Daesh and Nosra terrorists with sophisticated anti-tanks, anti-aircrafts weapons. I suspect Russia, beside China will be the next super powers ahead of West.


    AlfaT8 wrote:
    ...and China ... doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.
    If  near all experts are agree in one area, they are all assess that China will be at least the next superpower. Do not mention the past when China was near the stone age, without ressources -not know-how from its brighting scientists, but lack of money-, old fashionned countries without capabilities to produce stone -refer to the desastrous Mao plan in the end of 50's-. Nowadays all are changing and quickly, for example in order to catch up its late in fighters engine, they are ready to invest more than 25 billions of $. It is more than 80% of frencheese defense budget. Evidently they will arrive, evindently they will overcome to all difficulties in all areas. Do not forget nowadays, they have the most important reserve in money, and in scientists. It is a mere matter of time.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 10, 2014 5:59 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    nemrod wrote:
    You will have to be aware that most of the T-Bonds buyer(s -?  What a Face -) is the Fed. Hence, the dollar -as the Yen, and the british £- values is more and more decreasing, nearing 0. China has not been not bought US T-Bonds for a long time. Japan cannot buy US T-Bonds too, because of Fukushima disaster. Hence, it implies futures hard cuts in US weapon industry, leaving America, as Soviet Union in early 1990. We are near a disaster in US, and contrary to what they show, a world war between US-allies and Russia/China because of Ukraine and Syria is unlikely. US cannot afford it.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-11/bonds-dont-believe-its-all-over
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) *doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.*

    Well, just look at their nuclear subs... They can make great equipment, but that doesn't mean they do.

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:25 pm

    nemrod wrote:
    MCTR does not forbid Russia to go on its research and developments at first.
    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90.

    And this kind of -western- agreements has no future
    True, but Russia hasn't realized this yet, and is still cooperating, hell, they even go so far as to not sell the S-300 systems to Iran/Syria, most likely Russia is using the MCTR to try and avoid an Arms race.

    next, as US -violated at first its commitments- provide the Daesh and Nosra terrorists with sophisticated anti-tanks, anti-aircrafts weapons.
    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy. Mad

    I suspect Russia, beside China will be the next super powers ahead of West.
    Agree, all indication points to that.

    nemrod wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    ...and China ... doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.
    If  near all experts are agree in one area, they are all assess that China will be at least the next superpower. Do not mention the past when China was near the stone age, without ressources -not know-how from its brighting scientists, but lack of money-, old fashionned countries without capabilities to produce stone -refer to the desastrous Mao plan in the end of 50's-. Nowadays all are changing and quickly, for example in order to catch up its late in fighters engine, they are ready to invest more than 25 billions of $. It is more than  80% of frencheese defense budget. Evidently they will arrive, evindently they will overcome to all difficulties in all areas. Do not forget nowadays, they have the most important reserve in money, and in scientists. It is a mere matter of time.
    Yep, i fully agree, that's why i said they don't have the capabilities yet (i also said, i kinda disagree with Garry on that one).

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  nemrod on Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:00 pm

    In fact the purpose of my initial topic means, as US are in deep economic depression, it undoubtly impact on R&D' s of weapons' sector. Resulting by the late of US, and Russia will profit from this situation untill 2020's, in if not midlle 2030's, after that China will be the first.

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90.
    I ignored it concerns the SSN-24, however, the actual russian leaders are far to be idiots, as Gorbatchov, Yeltsin, Chernomidin, etc...were in the 1990's. If they could not implement these kind of projects, I think the R&D are far to be stopped. And these kind of missiles must be developped secretly into russian's super calculators, and are ready to be implement if the needs ask.



    True, but Russia hasn't realized this yet, and is still cooperating,...
    As I said above, the actual russian leaders are not idiots, they know how, and when to cooperate with who.


    ...hell, they even go so far as to not sell the S-300 systems to Iran/Syria, .....
    You and me know nothing about this subject. You and me learn, understand, and think about what we were said. And, one morning we wake up by seeing Iran has implemented a russian project as the S-300, or the SAM-6/11/18.
    It is obvious that Russia cooperated with Iran, and Syria, but noone knows



    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy. Mad
    I ignored that.



    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Yep, i fully agree, that's why i said they don't have the capabilities yet (i also said, i kinda disagree with Garry on that one).
    Iam not sure nowadays by the "yet".
    China in 1980 has nothing to see with China in the 50's. China in 2000 has nothign to see with China in 1980. China in 2010 has nothing to see with China in 2000. As I said in the end of 2000's, after the US cra$h in 2008, China understood quickly that its only assets will be its army, understood quickly and forsaw the US behaviour. At the end 2010 China has nearly 5.000 billions of $ of cash, beside its other thousand billions of $ of excedents. As its weak point was the fighter engines they decided officially to invest 25 billions $, officially, the reality is far largest, at least 30 billions, if not 40 billions. In this critical point China had to do all its possible to reach the level of Russia, and US. It seems they overcame, because their J-16 is run by their WS-10G, and the last photo of the J-20 was seen this fighter by its WS-15.
    Few years ago, I've seen an article wrote by an US specialist -he knew very well the chinese subject- that explained China in the 2015's in the critical fighter engine will be in the same level as US and Russia. Unfortunetly I lost this article. The WS-15 is now more powerfull than the F-22 's engine. For China it was the most important breaktrough.

    See this article :
    http://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/j-20/






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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:22 pm

    nemrod wrote:In fact the purpose of my initial topic means, as US are in deep economic depression, it undoubtly impact on R&D' s of weapons' sector. Resulting by the late of US, and Russia will profit from this situation untill 2020's, in if not midlle 2030's, after that China will be the first.
    The U.S MIC has been in trouble ever since the day they've been able to run computer simulations of there weapon systems and using these "simulations" instead of field testing, these "simulations" are notorious to being doctored/scripted to guaranty American "victory".  Rolling Eyes
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90.
    I ignored it concerns the SSN-24, however, the actual russian leaders are far to be idiots, as Gorbatchov, Yeltsin, Chernomidin, etc...were in the 1990's. If they could not implement these kind of projects, I think the R&D are far to be stopped. And these kind of missiles must be developped secretly into russian's super calculators, and are ready to be implement if the needs ask.
    Secrecy isn't even necessary, like they did with the Iskander claim that the range is so, but is actually much greater, there definitly do the samewith the Zircion.


    True, but Russia hasn't realized this yet, and is still cooperating,...
    As I said above, the actual russian leaders are not idiots, they know how, and when to cooperate with who.
    Whether there idiots or not, they are still cooperating like idiots.


    ...hell, they even go so far as to not sell the S-300 systems to Iran/Syria, .....
    You and me know nothing about this subject. You and me learn, understand, and think about what we were said. And, one morning we wake up by seeing Iran has implemented a russian project as the S-300, or the SAM-6/11/18.
    It is obvious that Russia cooperated with Iran, and Syria, but noone knows
    This "god moves in mysterious ways" excuse is annoying, actions speak louder then words and Russia's blatant cooperation with the west in regards to Syria and Iran, clearly shows there desperation in avoiding an arms-race, and there willingness to throw there supposed allies under bus.  Mad

    As for Iran, the development of the RA'AD and Bavar, they clearly show the necessity of Russian ADS, and unless these Iranian systems are produced in significant number they won't be able to do much if anything against the inevitable U.S invasion.


    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy. Mad
    I ignored that.
    Ooh sorry, i forgot to mention Ballistic missiles, anyway we were discussing the MCTR, but in response to the west selling weapons to rebels/Terrorist, yeah it's BS that they do this shit and the World/U.N turns a blind eye.


    AlfaT8 wrote:
    Yep, i fully agree, that's why i said they don't have the capabilities yet (i also said, i kinda disagree with Garry on that one).
    Iam not sure nowadays by the "yet".
    China in 1980 has nothing to see with China in the 50's. China in 2000 has nothign to see with China in 1980. China in 2010 has nothing to see with China in 2000. As I said in the end of 2000's, after the US cra$h in 2008, China understood quickly that its only assets will be its army,  understood quickly and forsaw the US behaviour. At the end 2010 China has nearly 5.000 billions of $ of cash, beside its other thousand billions of $ of excedents. As its weak point was the fighter engines they decided officially to invest 25 billions $, officially, the reality is far largest, at least 30 billions, if not 40 billions. In this critical point China had to do all its possible to reach the level of Russia, and US. It seems they overcame, because their J-16 is run by their WS-10G, and the last photo of the J-20 was seen this fighter by its WS-15.
    Few years ago, I've seen an article wrote by an US specialist -he knew very well the chinese subject- that explained China in the 2015's in the critical fighter engine will be in the same level as US and Russia. Unfortunetly I lost this article. The WS-15 is now more powerfull than the  F-22 's engine. For China it was the most important breaktrough.

    See this article :
    http://tiananmenstremendousachievements.wordpress.com/tag/j-20/
    China's has indeed made marvelous progress, but i wasn't talking about there jet engines or there engine developments (not my area), i was talking about the lack of Chinese Cruise/AshM/Ballistic missiles that are over 300km in range on the market, China isn't a part of the MCTR agreement, so why aren't they selling such missiles, there's clearly a demand for them, after all U.S/NATO strategy basically comes down to, stay out of the enemy's range and rain missiles on them till they can't put up much of a fight anymore.

    And when i asked Garry this question, he states that the current Chinese Missiles aren't very capable, which i find odd, even if they aren't that capable there mere presence should be able to make Western military commanders thinks twice about using there patented "Pot Shot strategy". Twisted Evil

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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:14 am

    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.

    If it makes you feel better Russia didn't have long range precision strike capability until it spent money on the Glonass system. Now that every ship has UKSK launchers it will be able to to rapidly deploy conventionally armed long range precision strike weapons... even with all the technology of the Soviet Union they needed nuke warheads on their cruise missiles to make them effective...

    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90

    INF is ground launched ONLY, Kh-90 is air launched.

    Secrecy isn't even necessary, like they did with the Iskander claim that the range is so, but is actually much greater, there definitly do the samewith the Zircion.

    While the INF treaty is in effect Zirconium will only be air launched and ship/sub launched... the Onyx it would replace is believed to have a flight range of 500-700km.

    Whether there idiots or not, they are still cooperating like idiots.

    They cooperate where it brings a benefit to them.

    It might seem like the CFE is a total joke as most of the Warsaw Pact and part of the former Soviet Union joined NATO and took their allocations with them... but lets face it.... during the 1990s Russia was in no position to maintain an enormous number of vehicles so getting rid of 3/4ths of the vehicle park saved money and as a bonus it had a regime in place that limited NATOs holdings and allowed Russian inspections. Without the CFE treaty NATO could have gone on a spending spree and spent a fortune on new and old equipment and Russia would have no say.

    This "god moves in mysterious ways" excuse is annoying, actions speak louder then words and Russia's blatant cooperation with the west in regards to Syria and Iran, clearly shows there desperation in avoiding an arms-race, and there willingness to throw there supposed allies under bus.

    Under a bus? Getting rid of Syrian WMDs while at the same time stopping direct western aerial intervention... ask Gaddafi how that goes... oh you can't.

    As for Iran, the development of the RA'AD and Bavar, they clearly show the necessity of Russian ADS, and unless these Iranian systems are produced in significant number they won't be able to do much if anything against the inevitable U.S invasion.

    The US will never invade Iran... 60 million people who don't want uncle SAM telling them again who should lead them...

    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy.

    Actually the MCTR bans the export of anything with a payload of 500kgs or more, OR the range of 300km or more. By that criteria the S-400 long range 380km range missile violates that treaty...

    And when i asked Garry this question, he states that the current Chinese Missiles aren't very capable, which i find odd, even if they aren't that capable there mere presence should be able to make Western military commanders thinks twice about using there patented "Pot Shot strategy".

    I did not state they weren't capable. What they lack is the ability to fly to a particular coordinate and find a precise target and hit it accurately... it is actually rather hard.

    Iskander can do it... you need a photo of the target, which you scan into the guidance system of the missile with the coordinates of the target area.

    Fire the missile and as the missile comes down an optics cap falls off and the optical seeker looks for the target in the scanned image in memory. Once it finds it it manouvers to hit it and will likely hit within 3-4 metres...

    the Chinese have plenty of missiles that can be fired at targets like ships and as they approach start looking and find the target with radar or optical seeker and hit the target.

    Let me ask you why they are bothering to create their own satellite navigation network?


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    Re: China & Russia close the tech gap vs USA in weapons race

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:29 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Unfortunately nemrod the Russian weapons industry has already been contained, thanks to the MCTR agreement, and China (according to Garry) doesn't have the capabilities yet to make truly capable weapons, which i don't buy, sorry Garry.

    If it makes you feel better Russia didn't have long range precision strike capability until it spent money on the Glonass system. Now that every ship has UKSK launchers it will be able to to rapidly deploy conventionally armed long range precision strike weapons... even with all the technology of the Soviet Union they needed nuke warheads on their cruise missiles to make them effective...
    Good to hear, but then what was considered long range strike before GPS??

    Nope, that would be the INF with respects to the KH-90

    INF is ground launched ONLY, Kh-90 is air launched.
    Then why is the INF treaty the stated reason for the cancellation of the entire program, was it a budgetary issue or something??

    Secrecy isn't even necessary, like they did with the Iskander claim that the range is so, but is actually much greater, there definitly do the samewith the Zircion.

    While the INF treaty is in effect Zirconium will only be air launched and ship/sub launched... the Onyx it would replace is believed to have a flight range of 500-700km.
    Great. pirat

    Whether there idiots or not, they are still cooperating like idiots.

    They cooperate where it brings a benefit to them.

    It might seem like the CFE is a total joke as most of the Warsaw Pact and part of the former Soviet Union joined NATO and took their allocations with them... but lets face it.... during the 1990s Russia was in no position to maintain an enormous number of vehicles so getting rid of 3/4ths of the vehicle park saved money and as a bonus it had a regime in place that limited NATOs holdings and allowed Russian inspections. Without the CFE treaty NATO could have gone on a spending spree and spent a fortune on new and old equipment and Russia would have no say.

    Until 2007/8 where everything went south because of Georgia, but what does that have to do with the MCTR which isn't even a treaty, and unlike the CFE held no benefits for Russia from day one, if anything it served to limit Russia's MIC and completely handicap any country that dares defy the Western powers.

    This "god moves in mysterious ways" excuse is annoying, actions speak louder then words and Russia's blatant cooperation with the west in regards to Syria and Iran, clearly shows there desperation in avoiding an arms-race, and there willingness to throw there supposed allies under bus.

    Under a bus? Getting rid of Syrian WMDs while at the same time stopping direct western aerial intervention... ask Gaddafi how that goes... oh you can't.
    Getting rid of WMDs and stopping western intervention is all well and good, but at the end of the day you cannot rely on other countries with the defense of your own, one must have the ability to defend themselves, because the protection you get from others is always temporary.

    As for Iran, the development of the RA'AD and Bavar, they clearly show the necessity of Russian ADS, and unless these Iranian systems are produced in significant number they won't be able to do much if anything against the inevitable U.S invasion.

    The US will never invade Iran... 60 million people who don't want uncle SAM telling them again who should lead them...
    Ooh Garry, you  know how this works, claim that the leadership are dictator, spur the population with talk of freedom, democracy and the wealth of capitalism/free-market and....well i am sure you know the rest.

    Anyway for me, at the end of the day the only thing keeping the U.S from invading are Iranian missiles like Meshkat and Shahab-3.

    The MCTR has nothing to do with anti-tank or anti-aircraft systems, just cruise/AshM missiles to protect there "precious" Navy.

    Actually the MCTR bans the export of anything with a payload of 500kgs or more, OR the range of 300km or more. By that criteria the S-400 long range 380km range missile violates that treaty...
    Domestic or export, on top of that this also brings up the question of whether ADS constitute as a delivery Systems.

    And when i asked Garry this question, he states that the current Chinese Missiles aren't very capable, which i find odd, even if they aren't that capable there mere presence should be able to make Western military commanders thinks twice about using there patented "Pot Shot strategy".

    I did not state they weren't capable. What they lack is the ability to fly to a particular coordinate and find a precise target and hit it accurately... it is actually rather hard.
    What did you think i meant when i said "not very capable"??
    Iskander can do it... you need a photo of the target, which you scan into the guidance system of the missile with the coordinates of the target area.

    Fire the missile and as the missile comes down an optics cap falls off and the optical seeker looks for the target in the scanned image in memory. Once it finds it it manouvers to hit it and will likely hit within 3-4 metres...
    Great, very useful for taking care of any hostile forces building up near your borders.

    the Chinese have plenty of missiles that can be fired at targets like ships and as they approach start looking and find the target with radar or optical seeker and hit the target.
    Then why aren't they selling these missiles???
    Let me ask you why they are bothering to create their own satellite navigation network?
    Because GPS and GLONASS can't be completely relied upon. Neutral

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