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    Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:48 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Modern radars create electronic radiation in the area of ​​their action, which, reflected from objects, returns and transmits a signal to the receiving equipment. This technology has not changed for many decades. Radio-photon locators operate using an ultra-wide bandwidth optical signal processing path, and this provides a number of advantages. Firstly, the dimensions of such radars are much smaller than existing ones. Secondly, they are more reliable and more resistant to electromagnetic radiation. In addition, prospective locators have increased resolution and noise immunity. They allow not only to detect the target and determine the parameters of its flight, but also to compose a three-dimensional portrait of the object to determine its type."


    Radars improved over the years specialy in computer proccessing. And now the datalinks makes radars much more dangerous and usefull as they share their information and makes something like a spider net over your country.

    Radio photon radars will also be jammable and have their negative points as any technology.

    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).
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    Post  Isos on Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:23 pm

    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

    And ?

    You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:21 am

    Isos wrote:
    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

    And ?

    You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

    You simply don't get it do you? We're talking computing technology of completely new principles of physics. How can you use ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES on technology that doesn't utilize electronics? Until that day that photonic computing becomes as ubiquitous in the world as electronics, with the 'other-side' having their own photonic computing, they really won't be able to create jammers to defeat technology that's poorly understood. You can't use ASW munitions against ballistic missiles, and you can't uses ABM weapons against diesel-electric attack subs, because they work on completely different principles of physics. Photonic computing technology has resistance to interference from the electro-magnetic spectrum to such extremes never before seen in the computer world.....they even have high resistence to interference caused by solar storms emitted by celestial bodies in space.
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    Post  thegopnik on Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:37 am

    Isos wrote:
    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

    And ?

    You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

    http://www.promweekly.ru/archive/kret/KRET_4-2018.pdf

    RADIO-PHOTONIC TECHNOLOGIES  IN ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEMS In view of the above, much attention is given to the development of EW systems for the land, sea and airspace applications. EW systems cover almost all known types of physical fields – electromagnetic, including optoelectronic, and sound field. Extensive and continuous use of EW systems results in certain specific characteristics of their components, materials, technologies and general system approaches used in their design. One of the essential technological novelties currently being implemented in EW are the ultra-wide bands (UWB) operating within a frequency range of 10 to 100 GHz. Because of limited capabilities of methods and devices for identifying and
    tracking the enemy’s RE operations in UWB, small-sized efficient EW systems currently cannot be implemented and their development
    is seriously hindered.

    This problem can be solved through using a radio-photonic technology that will provide
    sufficient improvement of EW equipment combat potential and a steady continuous control of a practically unlimited frequency band. Today, the prospects of using radio-photonic devices are mostly related to engineering of
    ultra-band active phased antenna arrays (APAA) for EW equipment.

    Engineering of phased antenna arrays (PAR) poses a sophisticated research and development problem. Solution to this problem lies in solving a wide range of tasks to achieve high sensitivity in the mode of receiving SHF signals emitted by UWB transmitters at an extremely low power. By quick and accurate control of coherent emitters system through changes in phase distribution, PAR can simultaneously trace multiple targets, search for the targets in the entire hemispherical space with automatic targets identifi- cation and tracking, direct the microwave radiation as an efficient jamming signal towards the most threatening and critical targets. The required power levels can be achieved due to multiple emitters distributed across the aperture. Among the existing PAR scanning methods, the time- domain method based on delay lines is preferred.

    The time-domain method as compared to the phase- and frequency-domain methods has the largest wide-band capacity provided that no dispersive signal distortions exist in the delay lines (DL). The use of wide-band optical DLs in the beam forming channels allows removing the effect of angle-frequency dependence between positions of PAR beams, improve the interference suppression efficiency due to an increase in speed of response, zeros depths and reduced width of pattern minimums in direction of interference."

    I do not know how efficient the west is in airborne EW but it seems pretty clear that KRET presented GaN modules back in 2014 and now have plans to start using FICs in EW. Again just my personal opinion but KRET has some very interesting EW systems that the west might view as voodoo because such systems using such concepts don't exist in their current EW systems. For example jamming HF communication waves 3000kms away(Murmansk-bn) or systems that cause artillery shells to blow up before touching their troops(rtut-bm). Now two weeks ago they have developed another brand new concept they have yet to reveal the public. My money is on KRET for developing the best airborne EW system.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:41 am

    Well I should have said countermeasures instead of ECM. But I think you understood what I was saying.

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    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:56 am

    The key detail being missed in the "jamming" is the use of visible band EM radiation. Good luck jamming daylight. The articles above for some reason do not mention
    the central advantage of a photonics-visible band technology: the "radar" is no longer the main source of the emission and instead is mostly a passive device using
    the ambient visible band (and possibly IR) radiation. At night the focus will likely shift to IR as the ambient source.

    The other show stopper for "jamming" is the use of signal processing over multiple bands. Jamming is just dumb flooding of sensors. No jamming signal(s) can
    perfectly mask the emissions from the target and here is where the computer power shines. It can subtract the jamming. No such capability exists in existing
    radar systems, even phased array ones.

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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:31 am

    Looks great Very Happy

    Looks like it has RAM applied to it...I guess that's what the serial ones will look like

    But hang on... this model doesn't have exposed metal engines like some early ones did... I thought they would all be the same as the first prototype because people complaining that they weren't fully serial stealthy said they aren't stealthy so the final product wont be stealthy... could it be they were wrong?

    Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

    In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...


    The thing is that MOD is applying GaN modules for 'their' take on 2nd gen AESA, which is GaN module AESA array backed with Photonic computing which allows information processing by an order of magnitude greater or more than previous generation of computing. Because the processing power is so much greater, you'll have an AESA array with rows of modules working on different frequencies wavelengths: One row could be X-band frequency, another row S-band, another L-band, another Ku-band, another VHF-band, another UHF-band. The multi-band AESA allows for 3D visualization of data gathered by frequency signals. You may even seen radars that go through THF wavelengths to ELF wavelengths.

    If we look at NEBO, they have three different antenna working in three very different frequencies... each has their advantages and disadvantages, but combined you can eliminate the problems and enhance the capabilities and get a much more detailed and useful result.

    Radars improved over the years specialy in computer proccessing. And now the datalinks makes radars much more dangerous and usefull as they share their information and makes something like a spider net over your country.

    F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

    The Soviet PVO widely used datalinks to share information and their current system for their navy makes their MiG-29KRs as capable as the F-35 is supposed to be in terms of sharing information... ie a MiG-29KR can send target data regarding a target to a ship over the horizon, that could then launch a SAM at that target based only on the target data from the MiG and hit it without ever detecting it with its own sensors...

    Radio photon radars will also be jammable and have their negative points as any technology.

    There is no such thing as a perfect unbeatable technology, but the point is not about it not being able to be jammed, the point is that all of a sudden those 120 million dollar F35s will be very vulnerable out to enormous ranges making their stealth cloak less like the one Harry Potter is given, and more like the Emperor with no clothes buys from those tailors and pays top dollar for...

    Stealth is not a waste of money... except when you totally compromise the aircraft completely and make it seriously expensive to make and to operate because of its stealth features and materials.

    When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.

    And while they develop countermeasures the Russians will have the luxury of having working examples themselves and can work on their own countermeasures... so when the west introduces its own systems the Russians might already be able to defeat them in western hands... it seems the west is more reactionary... they didn't bother with SAMs that could deal with ballistic threats even though the Soviets had as many ballistic threats as they did... from the beginning the S-300 had anti theatre ballistic missile capability, which was also added to shorter ranged systems over time too. Equally the west does not seem to have done much in terms of anti stealth technology either... almost as if they are focused on destroying small countries instead of taking on Russia or China.

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

    The Russians have a range of EW platforms, including some rather capable Hip helicopters and Il-76 converted transports, as well as the Su-24 variants and Su-34 models they are working on.

    One of the reasons the US is so against the Huawei 5G network gear is that it uses quantum encryption that they can't read yet...

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    Post  Isos on Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:35 pm

    There is no such thing as a perfect unbeatable technology, but the point is not about it not being able to be jammed, the point is that all of a sudden those 120 million dollar F35s will be very vulnerable out to enormous ranges making their stealth cloak less like the one Harry Potter is given, and more like the Emperor with no clothes buys from those tailors and pays top dollar for...

    Not really "all of a sudden" because russia will need to replace all its radars, all its AD systems and make missiles adaptaded to those new photonic radars which won't be quick nor cheap.

    Stealth works very well against modern targeting radars working in x band. That's why su-57 is stealth.

    And contrary to what most russian fanboys here are saying, western countries are not stuck with AESA and stealth. And russia is not 20 years ahead in anything. They are also working on quantum radars while russia is still trying to make correct AESA and its new fighters are designed to be stealth which according to the same fanboys is useless. But yet Russia is doing it. dunno
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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:19 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

    And ?

    You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

    You simply don't get it do you? We're talking computing technology of completely new principles of physics. How can you use ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES on technology that doesn't utilize electronics? Until that day that photonic computing becomes as ubiquitous in the world as electronics, with the 'other-side' having their own photonic computing, they really won't be able to create jammers to defeat technology that's poorly understood. You can't use ASW munitions against ballistic missiles, and you can't uses ABM weapons against diesel-electric attack subs, because they work on completely different principles of physics. Photonic computing technology has resistance to interference from the electro-magnetic spectrum to such extremes never before seen in the computer world.....they even have high resistence to interference caused by solar storms emitted by celestial bodies in space.
    Radio photonic is only a special technology of modulating and processing radar signals over a wide bandwidth. Advantage is a extreme accurate picture of the target, at close distance it's really possible to create a 3D picture of the target. So it's possible to identify a F-35 as a F-35 and have a perfect weapon quality track.

    Radio photonic radars are still jammable, but they are less vulnerable to jamming...we are talking here about a few dimensions less vulnerable. So the power output of the jammers must grow, because the technology of ROFAR makes a countertechnology really really difficult. I read somewhere that the detection distance of ROFAR's is a bit less compared to classic radar, but the resolution is overwhelming great, creating 3D radar pictures. Every technology has it's disadvantage!

    At moment Russia is leading in ROFAR technology, they had a few working prototypes, next step is serial production...but this will take a few years. Maybe if 2. stage engine for Su-57 are ready, ROFAR's will be too?! ROFAR's will give the edge over stealth and make it not complete useless, but cut it's efficiency extreme.

    For ROFAR the processing is still managed by classic computers, we don't talk about photonic computers, or quantum computers. And ROFAR is not Quantum Radar! By the way...quantum technology is not jammable in any way whatsoever, but that's SciFi now.
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    Post  Azi on Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:42 pm

    Isos wrote:Not really "all of a sudden" because russia will need to replace all its radars, all its AD systems and make missiles adaptaded to those new photonic radars which won't be quick nor cheap.

    Stealth works very well against modern targeting radars working in x band. That's why su-57 is stealth.

    And contrary to what most russian fanboys here are saying, western countries are not stuck with AESA and stealth. And russia is not 20 years ahead in anything. They are also working on quantum radars while russia is still trying to make correct AESA and its new fighters are designed to be stealth which according to the same fanboys is useless. But yet Russia is doing it. dunno
    And that's the reason why Su-57 is stealth and PAK-DA will be...because most western AD-Systems are not designed to detect and track "stealth-aircraft". So NATO has to spend billions over billions of dollar to modernize AD-Systems. Su-57 and PAK-DA are winning a different war, an economic and psychological war. Modernize or stay helpless? Aircraft of course will with AESA/PESA have problems to spot stealthy aircraft over long distance.

    Of course USA is working on technology of the future, but the focus for 15 years was different. If we are talking about the lost 10 years of Russia under Yeltsin, we should not forget the 15 years lost of USA and allies mainly focusing on the war on terror. For example the german frigate F-125 is a fine piece of technology, it can stay at ocean for twice as long as F-124, but they forgot something...yes missiles! The F-125 was optimized for police missions against pirates and terrorists and not for a war against a mighty opponent. That's why the best weapons systems of NATO are cold war systems and newer systems are sometimes a disaster.
    In terms of EW, radar, cyberwarfare, nuclear weapons we have a parity between NATO and Russia, in some parts Russia is clear ahead. If we are talking about shipbuilding Russia has a long long way to reach parity with NATO.
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    Post  BlackArrow on Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).

    They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

    In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...

    Is this AESA antenna in the wing, or on it? I am not aware of such AESA on the Su-35 - it might be under development, but it isn't in service yet.

    F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

    Well, there is MADL...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link
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    Post  marcellogo on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:01 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:



    F-22 doesn't use datalinks because it would give away their position... they can receive signals from AWACS and other platforms but don't transmit.

    Well, there is MADL...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multifunction_Advanced_Data_Link

    Ahem, Black Arrow, look that the MADL is EXACTLY the problem for what that one -way only transmission link was introduced in post production as a stop gap measure, not the contrary.
    Fact is that the USAF top brass and the Lo-Mart designers in their urge to happily enter in a new technological era of wonders have just forgot to carry the rest of their own planes and above all the assets of their own allies with them.
    Given that MADL could exchange data with other similarly AESA equipped planes F-22 was not cleared to operate in scenarios in which allies were present (i.e. always) until a data link was introduced.
    Also in this case however, their own obsession about stealth was so overhelming that they limited it to receive only, spoiling one of the best tactical advantage a VLO can bring to the table i.e. the capacity to operate as a forward recon asset.
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    Post  marcellogo on Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Su-35 also has AESA lband modules on its wings but it's debated as what they are for (either long range quick scans or for IFF).


    They state themselves can be used to scan airspace to detect the presence of stealth aircraft but not precisely enough to track...

    In other words if it detects something and a low power Ku band scan reveals very little or no return signal then try a high power scan and also use IR sensors...


    In other world, it will be in the same situations of the DAS aperture on F-35 as was recently admitted by the USAF: they can sense IR sources and even obtain an IR image if these are hot enough but for engage them, they need to use the main FLIR/IRST device.
    So difference between DAS and Himalaya is that the former is an IIR sensor (i.e. a small FLIR) while the other is a dual UV/IR one that operate as an IRST (i.e. gives out tracking data, not images).
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    Post  thegopnik on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:37 am

    Azi wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Not by this generations ECM technology (let alone Western equivalents).

    And ?

    You don't create ECM against something that doesn't exist. When new radar types came in service new countermeasures will come into service in the other side. This generation of ECM are very good against todays radar. When the need will apear, western companies will develop countermeasure against new radars too and they will be efficient.  

    French spectra is recognized by all to be a very good jammer. Mig worked with italian firms for the jammer for mig-35. And US are the only nation to have a dedicated EW jet to support its airborne operations.

    You simply don't get it do you? We're talking computing technology of completely new principles of physics. How can you use ELECTRONIC COUNTER MEASURES on technology that doesn't utilize electronics? Until that day that photonic computing becomes as ubiquitous in the world as electronics, with the 'other-side' having their own photonic computing, they really won't be able to create jammers to defeat technology that's poorly understood. You can't use ASW munitions against ballistic missiles, and you can't uses ABM weapons against diesel-electric attack subs, because they work on completely different principles of physics. Photonic computing technology has resistance to interference from the electro-magnetic spectrum to such extremes never before seen in the computer world.....they even have high resistence to interference caused by solar storms emitted by celestial bodies in space.
    Radio photonic is only a special technology of modulating and processing radar signals over a wide bandwidth. Advantage is a extreme accurate picture of the target, at close distance it's really possible to create a 3D picture of the target. So it's possible to identify a F-35 as a F-35 and have a perfect weapon quality track.

    Radio photonic radars are still jammable, but they are less vulnerable to jamming...we are talking here about a few dimensions less vulnerable. So the power output of the jammers must grow, because the technology of ROFAR makes a countertechnology really really difficult. I read somewhere that the detection distance of ROFAR's is a bit less compared to classic radar, but the resolution is overwhelming great, creating 3D radar pictures. Every technology has it's disadvantage!

    At moment Russia is leading in ROFAR technology, they had a few working prototypes, next step is serial production...but this will take a few years. Maybe if 2. stage engine for Su-57 are ready, ROFAR's will be too?! ROFAR's will give the edge over stealth and make it not complete useless, but cut it's efficiency extreme.

    For ROFAR the processing is still managed by classic computers, we don't talk about photonic computers, or quantum computers. And ROFAR is not Quantum Radar! By the way...quantum technology is not jammable in any way whatsoever, but that's SciFi now.

    1. The Phodir project shows that the italians achieved the same results the US Naval Research accomplished and that is only getting it to the level of a conventional radar. Russians have succeeded in spiking up the transmitter efficiency with less heat. That is why you see companies like KRET making plans for their usage and also why you see RTI wanting to start mass production. Sure the US among other countries are trying to integrate more to the photonics field but none (besides Russia) have started mass production of FICs or talking that much about wanting their military systems to use them.


    2. It can significantly change the battle field. If the Chinese are correct about -20 decibels of noise being removed from such a system than try to picture an F-22 seeing a 1m2 target at 400kms while the SU-57 will see a .01m2 target at that same distance now watching KRETs articles closely about EW systems I say an added EW system would have better immunity and offer better radar suppression capabilities so in other words if an F-22 happens to get equipped with GaN AESA modules the SU-57 FICs based EW systems would offer better capabilities. Hell even a 4th gen aircraft with both based radar and EW systems would make a tough foe for a 5th gen aircraft not equipped with these systems. We have yet to see their effectiveness.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:25 pm

    Not really "all of a sudden" because russia will need to replace all its radars, all its AD systems and make missiles adaptaded to those new photonic radars which won't be quick nor cheap.

    Most of its radars are already tied into air defence systems that combine different radar types with different frequencies... perhaps you are confusing Russia for the US... when the US introduced multiple rocket launchers in their army they replaced tube artillery. The Soviets added rocket launchers to tube artillery and used both together...

    When Soviet tanks got modern laminate and composite armour types they used them together with ERA and other things like SHTORA EW systems, they didn't just rely on one solution or another... they used them all together.

    These photonic radars will be the same, they will likely add photonic radar to existing systems to add to rather than replace... which will be cheaper and quicker and ultimately more effective for a much wider range of threats and targets.

    Stealth works very well against modern targeting radars working in x band. That's why su-57 is stealth.

    Many modern radars in Russia don't work in X or Ku band. They are going to make Su-57s which are stealthy, but they are also going to make MiG-35s and Su-35s which are not, and they are going to make more stealthy flying wing PAK DA, but they are also going to make Tu-160M2s which are not.

    Sounds like they don't think stealth alone is the answer.

    And contrary to what most russian fanboys here are saying, western countries are not stuck with AESA and stealth.

    Of course not, if Russia was going for an all stealth and super expensive highly stealth suite of aircraft then they would have to do pretty much what Russia has done with mixed frequency radar that work together with other types to reduce the effectiveness of stealth, but we don't really see Russia doing that and equally we don't see the west doing that either.

    Action reaction.

    And russia is not 20 years ahead in anything.

    Well in terms of hypersonic manouvering missiles they have had the Iskander in service for 20 years, and they seem to be progressing in other areas quite well too.

    They are also working on quantum radars while russia is still trying to make correct AESA and its new fighters are designed to be stealth which according to the same fanboys is useless. But yet Russia is doing it.

    They were supposed to be working on a ramjet powered AAM based on the R-77 but cancelled that... and it can't be because they are shit at ramjet powered missiles... I mean the SA-6 SAM entered service half a century ago, but if it is not that they couldn't do it, then it is more likely that they realised there was an alternative that offered better performance returns... ie a scramjet powered AAM... very similar design issues but rather higher speed performance... why wouldn't you?

    The thing with AESA radars is their extreme cost to start out with... the solution is to wait until you have the best possible design out of the right materials and then make radars for ships because those arrays are huge and so mass production is needed and it is mass production that forces down the cost and improves the design and makes them cheaper and more effective. After a while they become cheap and you have learned some new tricks regarding their search algorythms and use makes them even more effective... but the critical thing is cost... PESAs have most of the useful features at a fraction of the cost, and that wont change until you have made a few. Ground based radar arrays and ship based ones means production in the tens or hundreds of millions, which is a great way to reduce to price and increase the performance...

    Pretty soon you start integrating these radar antennas into all sorts of things... including HMG mounts and auto grenade launcher mounts and of course drones for armoured vehicles with MMW radar and IIR sensors... which might never be replaced by photonic radars because they do a good enough job not to need replacing.


    Is this AESA antenna in the wing, or on it? I am not aware of such AESA on the Su-35 - it might be under development, but it isn't in service yet.

    Of course, stealth detecting radar, already shown at MAKS in 2009:

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 1280px13
    By Allocer

    Always been a Russian priority to talk about their most secret operational systems, especially things that give them a serious edge...

    So difference between DAS and Himalaya is that the former is an IIR sensor (i.e. a small FLIR) while the other is a dual UV/IR one that operate as an IRST (i.e. gives out tracking data, not images).

    But the IR system on the Su-35 and Su-57 also have thermal imaging channels as well as imaging TV systems. They have 360 degree threat warning UV/IR sensors like PIRs in a security system, but their IRSTs are imaging systems and can be augmented with pod mounted systems for lower hemisphere imaging and targeting.

    The distributed system is early warning and self defence and DIRCMS related systems, while the nose mounted IRSTs are for targeting ground and air targets.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:07 pm

    US is working on Quantum Radars?

    Uh, as an FYI, Quantum radars are essentially what ROFAR is. Its photonics. That is what Rostec has been working on for a long time now.

    And wtf is correct AESA?

    These are phrases used by people who have no idea about the technology, how it works or implemented.

    AESA modules have been in use in Russia since early 2000's. As stated before hand, its been in use with Nebo radar. And their EW systems with even GaN modules used back in 2015 for its EW.

    https://www.niip.ru/upload/iblock/4c8/4c89c11ae741be234a5f900b3fb41e86.pdf
    https://rostec.ru/upload/iblock/749/7499bd4f8161ec87a58c080c077564e8.pdf

    As stated, GaN modules are already made in Russia

    https://niiet.ru/news/radiotranz

    JSC "NIIET" (part of JSC "Concern "Sozvezdie") has developed a new high-power microwave GaN transistors ПП9139Б1. The main application area is the radio transmission equipment. Transistors oriented on the creation and upgrading of advanced models of existing automated systems of radio communication, navigation and air traffic control, broadband data transmission, radar equipment, unmanned aerial vehicles and airborne communication systems.

    US doesn't even use GaN in large numbers or use. It has 1 testing unit. They aren't really far in Quantum (ROFAR) Radar systems at all. Russia already tested theirs. Same with China.
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    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:58 pm

    The US is just as "ahead" of Russia in this field as it is in hypersonic missiles and warheads. Soon we will have US blowhards accusing Russia of stealing
    US ROFAR technology. The usual pre-emptive smear to compensate for being behind the curve.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:29 pm

    kvs wrote:The US is just as "ahead" of Russia in this field as it is in hypersonic missiles and warheads.   Soon we will have US blowhards accusing Russia of stealing
    US ROFAR technology.    The usual pre-emptive smear to compensate for being behind the curve.

    We got dickheads on this forum who have no fucking clue how Radar works or even what they are saying. True AESA? WTF does that even mean? I mean, I got family working in radiotechnology engineering. they built radar systems. If I even showed them this they would have a heart attack knowing how stupid some Americans or pro Americans will just spew make belief stuff just to make a point which is invalid anyway.

    Holy shit, I know US education system is garbage and they rely on foreigners to fill the ranks in the R&D industry, but I didn't think it was that bad.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:24 pm


    And wtf is correct AESA?

    One that is deployed and works.

    US are using AESA since more than 10 years ago and they have them on all their fighters. Russia is still developing (or have develop recently) aesa radars. And they seem to order mig-35 with old zhuk-m but it was supposed to be their first jet with aesa.

    Having the modules doesn't mean you have the radar technology.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:26 pm

    Isos wrote:

    And wtf is correct AESA?

    One that is deployed and works.

    US are using AESA since more than 10 years ago and they have them on all their fighters. Russia is still developing (or have develop recently) aesa radars. And they seem to order mig-35 with old zhuk-m but it was supposed to be their first jet with aesa.

    Having the modules doesn't mean you have the radar technology.

    You are a retard.

    Nebo M and SVU.  All their EW systems are AESA as well.  I have said this countless times.  Your reading comprehension issues is beyond staggering.

    The radar you speak for MiG-35 isn't PESA either.  Its AESA.  Its the Beetle-A radar.  170km range.  Seen at MAKS 2019.

    Instead of being a moron, go read the two PDF's I have provided.  But, judging by your history of making shit up and talking smack with no method of backing up your claims, you wont.  Or you just don't know how to actually read so there is that too.

    http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/55Zh6M-Nebo-M_a002724001.aspx

    This link is within your capabilities of being able to read it I hope.

    Edit: And I know what you are going to say afterwards - "I am talking about airborn radar". That is simply moving goalposts since the point is you were wrong anyway.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:11 pm

    There is big difference btw nebo and a small radar that fits inside a jet. The size. And tge t/r which are totally different. Just lookk at your nebo and you will see the t/r are antennas rather than the modules we find in jet's radars. Just like for all their EW systems.

    They have an aesa radar for mig-35 with even 260km range but there is no indication it will be introduced. And they are not yet deployed anywhere.

    The only one they deployed was the su57's byelka in Syria and they are still working on it.


    That is simply moving goalposts since the point is you were wrong anyway.

    What is wrong ? There are 3 claim in my last post : US have deployed aesa since more than 10 years ago. Russia is still dev them and has none deployed ( I was talking about airborne ones). Having modules doesn't mean you have the radar ready as the reality shows it because 2 years ago they had none ready.

    All my claims are clear and not made up at all. You just invent claims and put them in my mouth.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:15 pm

    T/R modules are the same.  You would need to understand that first, which you do not.  A module is a transmitter and Receiver.  That is common in all radar systems be it ground and airbase.  So yes, those modules can very well be the exact same modules.  Hence why they are dual purpose systems used from radar systems to telecommunication systems.

    I know this because I have seen it first hand.  You have not.  Reason why they didn't initially use such T/R modules is because of the cooling issue.  This was stated by Kret back about 2013 in a Takeoff magazine.

    I ask you of this.

    Provide me proof to the following statements:

    -T/R Modules not the same
    -N036 is still being worked on
    -a MiG-35 in use by Russia using anything other than Beetle-A.

    Pictures with full descriptions please.

    Otherwise, you are full of shit and useless.

    I will give you some answers:

    -T/R modules are same because its the basic intrinsics how Radar works.  T/R modules all work as same instances since its basic physics.
    -N036 is been complete for sometime, because first series production of Su-57 is to arrive this year.
    -MiG-35 isn't in Russian service yet and what was showcased at MAKS-2019 is exactly the radar to be used.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:30 pm

    MiG-35 in use by Russia using anything other than Beetle-A

    MiG-35 isn't in Russian service yet and what was showcased at MAKS-2019 is exactly the radar to be used..

    It has been delivered to RuAF.

    https://www.defenceiq.com/air-forces-military-aircraft/articles/what-does-the-mig-35-bring-to-air-combat-interview-with-anastasia-kravchenko

    July 2019. Official from mig interview.

    Kravchenko:  "It has no AESA radar yet. The current radar is the Zhuk-M with a mechanically steered antenna. However, its developer [Phazontron-NIIR] is working on AESA versions, called the Zhuk-A/AM, which possess more than 1,000 solid-state transceiver-receiver modules."

    -T/R Modules not the same

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 Tzolzo10
    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 10333110

    Are those T/R the same for you ? They work the same but they are not the same. And the radars are not the same. Nevo has t/r that are antennas of ~80cm each and airborne modules are few cm. For such tech, bigger is easier to make. The complicated part is to make them small.

    -N036 is still being worked on

    It was sent in Syria for testing and it wasn't finished. I assume it is still in dev. If they have finished it, it was only recently.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:39 pm

    Tr modules are in the casing behind the mini antennas.

    Goes to show what you know.  All designs are the same in the sense they use a PCB with the necessary T/R chip design.  These modules were shown here years ago. Carl Kopp also shown them.  Wish he was still posting on his site.

    https://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-SV/1L119-Nebo-SVU-TR-Modules-1S.jpg

    As you see, they are air cooled modules. Liquid cooling is required for these modules to work in a jet.

    Su-57 in Syria has nothing to do with radar at all.  It's not there for sky patrol but launching missile tests on air to ground.

    That MiG-35 you are referring to are test unit, not actual production.

    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25357/MiG_35_Shows_Off_New_AESA_Radar_at_MAKS_2019#.XXvi8D_F1-E
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:06 pm

    Sure:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/new-video-shows-russia-testing-its-advanced-su-57-fighter-in-syria-2018-11

    The defense ministry said Monday that "the flights were performed to confirm the stated capabilities of the newest plane in a real combat environment."

    The aircraft is said to have participated in the bombing of Syrian rebels and Islamic State forces in support of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's ground war, which is a rather poor test of the aircraft's combat capabilities.



    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 LfRRjks
    The air cooled Transmit-Receive Modules are located behind each antenna element. Note that this image shows reflectors for backlobe suppression added to each of the folded dipole emitters, these are absent in images of display equipment (NNIIRT).

    These are what T/R modules from Russia looks like that you will find in such boxes or any other box containing modules for T/R except in larger housings like in Nebo-M they are bigger PCB's and housing overall.  

    Russian PESA and AESA Radars - Page 6 TGuqdXf

    Reason why you think it is different is because the amplifier modules are very different between VHF, UHF and other bands of radar systems and their installations. In a fighter jet it would be very different too.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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