Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Share
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 5:24 pm

    house200888 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    house200888 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:House, from what you linked me, I checked out the site and found this: http://igorrgroup.blogspot.in/2009/08/some-questions-about-fazotrons-aesa-are.html?m=1

    According to the small talk, the Zhuk-AE technically can detect at 250km with 680 or so modules. He stated that they greatly underplay the performance charactoristics. He also said the problem is that the radars modules are meant to transmit at 5mw per module but only do so at 3-3.5mw, and is a powerplant issue.

    Yes I read that before
    That was the goal back in 2009 as I mentioned before
    But what we have seen as a fact in 2015 is totally different
    I think their was difficulties in practical side


    The one used in MMRCA had a range of up to 130 Km (and Indians even said it shows less than that)
    The goal was to increase the range to exceed 200 Km . But what they offered to India in AERO INDIA 2015 was much less

    You disnt read it then. The phazotron chief stated it is due to powersupply and that they undervalue their stats.

    He explain me, that initially figured 120 km detection range – is highly downplayed, and reflect the real capability of the radar in very initial stage of work, already overcome. According to him, the planned capability of standard flying target detection for Zhuk-AE (with 680 emitting units) is 250 km, and he is in no doubt to achieve it.

    Edit: you say indians confirmed, but that was rumor mill that phazotron denied. Shouldnt read too much into that indian forum...

    No I really read it before
    Actually until I saw that pic from AERO INDIA I  always was convinced that the range of FGA-35 is more than 200 km relying on this interview and another link that said back then nearly the same
    even WIKI say nearly the same

    But that PIC is official and up to date

    It is. But it raises some interesting questions. They stated what issue they faced before, and could very well be the same case today - powersupply. If the T/R modules not being given enough power, the power applied back could cause the issue. Is this issue be due to the engines to the powersupply?

    The N036 seems to be working as intended as performance clearly shows at even similar t/r modules as other radars, gives similar abilities to Irbis-E, which proved its 400km detection range against 5m^2 in a video produced by metberkut at mp.net.

    So either NIIP's modules are better, or the engines are producing enough power to the powersupply.

    Good news for NIIP i suppose. Other thing is that they are developing new method of t/r modules for aesa radars that will reduce cost and weight/size: http://www.niipp.ru/catalog/detail.php?ID=245

    While KRET and Rostec are developing aesa radar tech through photons. So maybe that will solve KRETS initial issues.
    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Russian PESA and AESA radars

    Post  sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 5:37 pm

    Well, all I can say is, it is darn shame that they either didnt fix powersupply issue or they are downplaying export model to India. Guess why they lost out in end. While NIIP won India through PAK FA. They will definately need to fix it. Could offer a radar for existing su-27's and 30's and test to see if their powerplants can produce the needed power. maybe that is how they achieved better results in their tests. And who knows if we will know its performance since Zhuk-A was to be used on Ka-52K helicopters for mistral and that deal is done.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue May 26, 2015 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Small AFAR (MAFAR)

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:19 pm

    Small AFAR (MAFAR)


    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 432
    Points : 498
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  jhelb on Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:07 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    An "AFAR" is an "AESA", "active electronically scanned array".

    Morpheus, can you plz explain which missiles will be using these AESA radars. Thanks.
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:40 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    An "AFAR" is an "AESA", "active electronically scanned array".

    Morpheus, can you plz explain which missiles will be using these AESA radars. Thanks.

    I don't know. I have to measure the dimensions. Without any measurements, I would guess it would fit all of the Buk family and similar-sized missiles. Of course, it can have uses in UAVs and manned aircraft also. The poster next to it may give some clues.

    If the "caliber" was visible, a person would have a better idea.

    The second paragraph in the following clip refers to this radar, not much info though.

    http://www.ruselectronics.ru/news/?id=981
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:20 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:Small AFAR (MAFAR)




    Here are a couple of more images; the first one had already been posted in another thread by alexZam.





    avatar
    Cyberspec

    Posts : 1938
    Points : 2103
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:32 am

    Thx Morpheus thumbsup

    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:03 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Thx Morpheus thumbsup


    thumbsup
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:15 am

    By the way, to the right of the MAFAR, there seems to be a 3 mm (millimeter wave) datalink (guessing) named Эдельвейс (Ehdel'vejs, as in edelweiss).
    avatar
    Morpheus Eberhardt

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2066
    Join date : 2013-05-20

    Sh-141 radar

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:31 pm

    Sh-141

    The 3D L-band radar/IFF array is very well visible.


    Austin

    Posts : 6237
    Points : 6643
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Austin on Thu Aug 13, 2015 6:46 pm

    Thanks Nice post

    Is the advantage by Aesa is huge enough to cancel procuring Irbis pesa like capability ? Would jamming Irbis say using Aesa antenna will be easier done compared to jamming Aesa ?
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 432
    Points : 498
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  jhelb on Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:55 pm

    Austin wrote:Thanks Nice post

    Is the advantage by Aesa is huge enough to cancel procuring Irbis pesa like capability ? Would jamming Irbis say using Aesa antenna will be easier done compared to jamming Aesa ?

    An AESA radar uses many individual, small transmit/receive modules, whereas a PESA radar uses a common RF source whose signal is modified using digitally controlled phase shifter modules.

    Higher sensitivity allows to reduce power so the J/S (jam to signal) ratio increases. PESA does not have the same comparable frequency agility as that of AESA. Frequency hopping is an effective technique for a radar system to circumvent jamming and electronic counter-countermeasures.

    So if I was flying lets say a Su 35S that has Tikhomirov's AESA radar and you were flying a Su 30MKI that has Irbis, I will find it easier to jam your radar. In this case Tikhomirov's AESA radar would do the following: increase power trying to burn through jamming, change frequency in order to evade jamming or in some cases ignore the jammed sector.

    http://www.tscm.com/rcvr-typ.pdf

    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3194
    Points : 3284
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  medo on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:16 pm

    Austin wrote:Thanks Nice post

    Is the advantage by Aesa is huge enough to cancel procuring Irbis pesa like capability ? Would jamming Irbis say using Aesa antenna will be easier done compared to jamming Aesa ?

    I's difficult to say. PESA radar is also very agile in frequency hoping and is practically without side loops so it is not possible to jam it from the sides. Also there is more energy loses in AESA because of heating of TR elements and need more cooling.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 798
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Aug 14, 2015 12:12 am




    So if I was flying lets say a Su 35S that has Tikhomirov's AESA radar and you were flying a Su 30MKI that has Irbis, I will find it easier to jam your radar.  In this case Tikhomirov's AESA radar would do the following: increase power trying to burn through jamming, change frequency in order to evade jamming or in some cases ignore the jammed sector.

    http://www.tscm.com/rcvr-typ.pdf


    Why PESA radar can't do the same ? PESA can have frequency hopping... can also have guard channel for sidelobe blanking and ignore the jammed sector.. can also have leading edge tracking to counter some types of deceptive jamming.

    PESA can also have high power transmitter to attempt to burn through.




    avatar
    sepheronx

    Posts : 7255
    Points : 7555
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 28
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:52 am

    Irbis isnt even full on PESA anyway. Kinda a mixture between both really. Hybrid radar it was called.

    avatar
    higurashihougi

    Posts : 2152
    Points : 2255
    Join date : 2014-08-13
    Location : A small and cutie S-shaped land.

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:50 am

    sepheronx wrote:Irbis isnt even full on PESA anyway. Kinda a mixture between both really. Hybrid radar it was called.

    Irbis and its predeccessor Bars are PESA, but they have dynamic shifted phase capability. The radar beam's direction can be quickly changed and oscillated while the radar antenna stand still. Unlike previous radar (Myech, Zhuk,...) the radar antenna has to be oscillated in order to change the direction of the radar beam.

    Irbis/Bars's transmitter is mechanically oscillated in the rate of 200 round per second. The movement of the transmitter caused change in the distance(s) between the transmitter and each phase modules. The difference in these distances cause different phase shifting in each modules, lead to the change of the direction of the radar beam.

    When Irbis/Bars antenna stands still, the radar beam can rapidly move left and right in the angle of 120 degree. The radar antenna can be mechanically move in another 120 degree. Totally, Su-30/35 can have a 240 degree vision.

    Using of PESA in Su-30/35 is actually a good thing, not bad thing. PESA has the distinctive advantage of signal power, cleanliness and purity, something that AESA currently cannot achieve yet. And Su-30/35 radar antenna still have the traditional surface shape, it does not have unconventional shape like T-50 L-band radar, therefore people do not need to use AESA in Su-30/35.

    The reason why Western fighter use AESA in the nose radar, like in the case of Rafale or F-22, is because they failed to create effective dynamic shifted phase PESA like Su-30/35.

    =========
    =========
    =========

    The difference between AESA and PESA dynamic shifted phase (like Irbis, Bars), is that each phase module of AESA has its own phase shifter, while the phase shifting of all PESA modules is generated by one shifter only.

    That means, in AESA we can individually modify the phase shift of each module, and the difference and difference pattern between the phase of each modules can be change as much as we want. Meanwhile, in Irbis and Bars, although the phase shift can be changed due to the movement of transmitter, it follows a certain pattern.

    And that means, we can put and arrange the AESA modules in any kinds and patterns we desire. The shape of AESA antenna can be as unconventional as we desire, we just have to modify the phase shift to suit the radar shape. Russian AESA radars, like T-50 wing edge radar, or Lira sonar, they have unconventional shape, thanks to being AESA.

    But F-22, Rafale, Typhoon put AESA at the conventional position and shape, like PESA. Laughing Laughing Laughing

    The disadvantage of AESA, till today, is the quality, purity and power of the radar signal. Each of F-22's AESA modules has its own phase shifter and transmitters. That cause numerous distortions both in frequency and phase. Newer generation of AESA radars have only one transmitter, but each phase module has its own shifter. That fixes the problem of distortion, but still the power of AESA is still not strong enough.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3194
    Points : 3284
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  medo on Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:16 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Using of PESA in Su-30/35 is actually a good thing, not bad thing. PESA has the distinctive advantage of signal power, cleanliness and purity, something that AESA currently cannot achieve yet. And Su-30/35 radar antenna still have the traditional surface shape, it does not have unconventional shape like T-50 L-band radar, therefore people do not need to use AESA in Su-30/35.

    Su-35 have L-band AESA radar in wing leading edge.


    higurashihougi wrote:The disadvantage of AESA, till today, is the quality, purity and power of the radar signal. Each of F-22's AESA modules has its own phase shifter and transmitters. That cause numerous distortions both in frequency and phase. Newer generation of AESA radars have only one transmitter, but each phase module has its own shifter. That fixes the problem of distortion, but still the power of AESA is still not strong enough.

    Are you sure? If new generation AESA have only one transmiter and each module have its own shifter, than what is the difference between Irbis/Bars and those new AESA radars? This is actually PESA radar, because modules don't transmit themselves, but only shift transmitting signal and receive returned signal. This is how Irbis/Bars and other PESA work.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 798
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Aug 14, 2015 11:19 am

    higurashihougi wrote:
    The difference between AESA and PESA dynamic shifted phase (like Irbis, Bars), is that each phase module of AESA has its own phase shifter, while the phase shifting of all PESA modules is generated by one shifter only.


    This is wrong. Both PESA and AESA's antenna Does contain Phase shifter.

    The differences is that AESA antenna module have Amplifier network and Receiver on its own. Why AESA got "A" (Active) Is because the existence of a component that can amplify or actually generate EM Wave.. Which is the amplifier (Which made of GaAs or GaN)

    PESA Antenna modules does not have that active element in it only phase shifters Thus why PESA got "P" for Passive.
    avatar
    jhelb

    Posts : 432
    Points : 498
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  jhelb on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:11 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Why PESA radar can't do the same ? PESA can have frequency hopping... can also have guard channel for sidelobe blanking and ignore the jammed sector.. can also have leading edge tracking to counter some types of deceptive jamming.

    PESA can also have high power transmitter to attempt to burn through.

    PESA can do that but not as effectively as AESA.

    However in an AESA radar since the power supplies, final power amplification and input receive amplification, are distributed, Mean Time Between Failure(MTBF) is significantly higher than that of PESA. Also in defense of PESA what can be said is that the act of jamming the PESA  radar effectively surrenders the frequency hopping agility in the emissions of the  AESA radar like APG-79 or APG-81.

    victor1985

    Posts : 723
    Points : 764
    Join date : 2015-01-02

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  victor1985 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:58 pm

    [quote="jhelb"][quote="Austin"]Thanks Nice post

    Is the advantage by Aesa is huge enough to cancel procuring Irbis pesa like capability ? Would jamming Irbis say using Aesa antenna will be easier done compared to jamming Aesa ?[/quote]

    An AESA radar uses many individual, small transmit/receive modules, whereas a PESA radar uses a common RF source whose signal is modified using digitally controlled phase shifter modules.

    Higher sensitivity allows to reduce power so the J/S (jam to signal) ratio increases. PESA does not have the same comparable frequency agility as that of AESA. Frequency hopping is an effective technique for a radar system to circumvent jamming and electronic counter-countermeasures.

    So if I was flying lets say a Su 35S that has Tikhomirov's AESA radar and you were flying a Su 30MKI that has Irbis, I will find it easier to jam your radar.  In this case Tikhomirov's AESA radar would do the following: increase power trying to burn through jamming, change frequency in order to evade jamming or in some cases ignore the jammed sector.

    http://www.tscm.com/rcvr-typ.pdf

    [/quote]


    point is even you change frecvency the enemy would jam with same thing mean changing frecvency too in this your signal not getting to missile. this is about the power of how many signals the missile electronics process per second. that mean the speed of electrons. and also about the bias of the transistors in amplification because of errors that can occur errors in bias of curent and bias of voltage
    avatar
    mack8

    Posts : 953
    Points : 1013
    Join date : 2013-08-02

    PESA and AESA

    Post  mack8 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:17 pm

    Did not know till today that the Bars-M was gimballed, apparently horizontal only though. Picture posted by Jo Asakura:

    victor1985

    Posts : 723
    Points : 764
    Join date : 2015-01-02

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  victor1985 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:22 pm

    i wanna ask something: as far as i know the PESA radar has a single beam but powerfull than AESA well in a combat the PESA will detect from far away than AESA ? so why AESA?
    at what help if PESA will detect first and fire a missile?
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:50 pm

    victor1985 wrote:i wanna ask something: as far as i know the PESA radar has a single beam but powerfull than AESA well in a combat the PESA will detect from far away than AESA ? so why AESA?
    at what help if PESA will detect first and fire a missile?
    PESA isn't more powerful based off of design, rather, it depends on the model. AESA panels are harder to "lock on to" (they can hop frequencies, blend frequencies etc), harder to jam, and also higher resolution. A good example of this, is how many AESA panels can map the ground.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 798
    Points : 882
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:01 am

    Mike E wrote:
    PESA isn't more powerful based off of design, rather, it depends on the model. AESA panels are harder to "lock on to" (they can hop frequencies, blend frequencies etc), harder to jam, and also higher resolution. A good example of this, is how many AESA panels can map the ground.

    Incorrect. Frequency hopping, etc is already feature of today's modern radar regardless antenna types. Same goes for "jammability" There's no reason why PESA can't also have similar mainlobe nulling as AESA, especially for hybrid array like bars or irbis.

    Resolution for ground mapping is determined by physics not antenna type. It does not need AESA for high resolution ground mapping. Even MiG-29's Zhuk ME conventional slotted planar array can produce map with sufficient resolution for weapon delivery or navigation.

    Main advantages of AESA however lies in its reliability as it does not subject to single point transmitter failure unlike conventional or PESA radar. Other advantage however.. though debatable is transmitter flexibility. the AESA can actually split its aperture into several smaller antenna and each subarrays can transmit or receive independently.. That might be desirable, for application like highspeed datalinking.

    Furthermore..if it can be realized the AESA is the only way to "true time delay" Photonic beamsteering control, where phase shifter is replaced with other means like optic fibre.
    avatar
    Mike E

    Posts : 2763
    Points : 2813
    Join date : 2014-06-19
    Location : Bay Area, CA

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Mike E on Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:40 am

    But AESA's can "do it better", quicker etc. Along with the reliability you mentioned.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:19 am