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    Russian PESA and AESA Radars

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    Mindstorm

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:29 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:ok found it (finally:lol: )


    now for modified pesa the receiver cutoff is before the waveguide so noise is half d.


    From what publication has been taken this over-simplistic image ?

     (moreover those signal noise figures and PESA radar layout's design appear very outdated even for 15-20 old specimens !!)


    I know that , for some reason, has been widely spread and is ,by now, deeply rooted this odd linking in a biunivocal relation  "low probability to intercept" to AESA radars ; the problem is that it is simply not so Smile 


    Wide majority of radars, ground ship or airborne based, classified as "LPI"  -the main characterizing features of which are : effective bandwidth, seriability of scan patterns, side lobes size and magnitudo, radiated power management, frequency agility and pulse's compression/modulation/encoding and ambiguity's index -   and now operatives worldwide are not-AESA radars.  (some "western" samples of that are Raytheon AN-APQ-181 and AN/APG70, Raytheon MRSR ,Telephonics AN/APS-147,  ELTA EL/M-214039 etc..etc...)

    If we exclude a certain increase in beam shape's modulation rate ( somewhat degrading the mean time of modulation period's extraction for the opposing RWR ) and radiated power control for the effect of the possibility to arrange the amplitude and phase of single T/R elements ,  the LPI capabilities of an AESA and a modern PESA radar are almost unnoticeable.


    Exist even instances (mostly where sidelobe performances and/or raw signal-to-noise ratio are the central requirements) where even a mechanically steered coherent pulse radar is preferred ,under a strict technical point of view, over an AESA.  (like in the Telephonics AN/APS-147 instance).
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    medo

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  medo on Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:01 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:ok found it (finally:lol: )


    now for modified pesa the receiver cutoff is before the waveguide so noise is half d.

    PESA module obviously have more elements inside than AESA module. More elements could also mean more protection for receiver and those losses could be also translated in heat exchange (longer chain means longer time of cooling). Of course every radar have its own construction and its own scheme of elements in its chain. It seems PESA have better cooling capabilities and with that better capabilities to work with high power signals and with that jamming resistance.

    I would like to ask a question to those, who have experiences with ESA type radars. I personally have a situation on exercises, where jamming signal turn off my whole system. OK radar was classical mechanical one and jammer was ground base, which is of course more powerful than any airborn jammer and quite close to my position. Although I didn't have transmitting on, jamming signal was so strong, that it turn off whole system and I have to turn it on again. Is it possible, that similar high power jammer or high power PESA radar could focus enough strong signal into AESA element to turn them off? Considering, that AESA T/R modules also transmit in the same time, is it possible to overheat them with strong focused signal in it?

    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:03 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:ok found it (finally:lol: )


    now for modified pesa the receiver cutoff is before the waveguide so noise is half d.


    From what publication has been taken this over-simplistic image ?
    (moreover those signal noise figures and PESA radar layout's design appear very outdated even for 15-20 old specimens !!)


    study from a book of 600 pages....tongue 

    ok ,cant wait to see your diagram example jocolor Rolling Eyes 
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    SOC

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  SOC on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:18 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:From what publication has been taken this over-simplistic image ?

     (moreover those signal noise figures and PESA radar layout's design appear very outdated even for 15-20 old specimens !!)

    It's from George Stimson's Introduction to Airborne Radar. And yes, the text is very outdated, being last updated in 1998, which explains some of the discrepancies. ESA's are only covered in a small section at the back of the book, it's primary purpose is to provide an intro to the mathematics and physics behind airborne radar systems (i.e. how the signal itself is generated, how it all works, how the system interprets targets, etc). From that perspective it remains a very useful volume, you just have to accept that some of the design bits at the end are obviously outdated. It's basically "radar for dummies", provided said dummies have a good math background; the pre-update text was originally an in-house textbook for Hughes radar engineers.

    For something more recent (2004) and more amusing, I'd recommend David Lynch's Introduction to RF Stealth, dealing primarily with the design of radars and system architecture for LO platforms.

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:18 pm

    Rpg type 7v wrote:
    Mindstorm wrote:
    Rpg type 7v wrote:ok found it (finally:lol: )


    now for modified pesa the receiver cutoff is before the waveguide so noise is half d.


    From what publication has been taken this over-simplistic image ?
    (moreover those signal noise figures and PESA radar layout's design appear very outdated even for 15-20 old specimens !!)


    study from a book of 600 pages....tongue 

    ok ,cant wait to see your diagram example jocolor Rolling Eyes 





    from a book of 600 pages....


    And what this should mean ?

    You are even more naive than what i had belived.....


    Rpf type 7v i know that you love your (if you allow me to say very very convoluted) "troll work" here ,but now is sufficient a name of the book in question and a date of publication to qualify the level of the attempt.....do you know someone could already know the responses to those questions and theirs meaning.

    Not that i was surprised : after all you are the same guy attempting to compulsively "troll" on Pantsyr-S1's performances attempting a......very unlucky comparison with BAMSE Laughing , or getting the courage to cite Meteor AAM as example of foreign technological product in a......Russian forum ( Prof. V. Sosounov and M. Tskhovrebov of CIAM and V. Rosenband of Semenov Institute could say to you a thing or two on the deciding role of domestic achievements in the SFRJ propulsion and boron particulate combustion, sold to Onera and Roxel, in the development of Meteor AAM Very Happy ).




    Rpg type 7v

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Rpg type 7v on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:23 pm

    this works for every radar ,or there exists pesa without phaseshifters and receiver protectors - like i said i cant wait for your modern diagrams. youre da troll.

    as for solid fuel ramjet i have to say kub missile development 3m9 ,,proved very troublesome 9 years Laughing , and the russians gave up on it in second generation of AA missiles -buk -solid rocket.
    as for french they had asmp for looong time....

    Mindstorm

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Mindstorm on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:32 pm

    For something more recent (2004) and more amusing, I'd recommend David Lynch's Introduction to RF Stealth, dealing primarily with the design of radars and system architecture for LO platforms.

    SOC if we want to remain in the english language why not ,then, the second edition of "Detecting and Classifying Low Probability of Intercept Radar" by Phillip E. Pace of 2009 , moreover with one of the best section on radar pulse encoding and decoding techniques of any western open publications ?
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    SOC

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  SOC on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:54 pm

    Mindstorm wrote:
    For something more recent (2004) and more amusing, I'd recommend David Lynch's Introduction to RF Stealth, dealing primarily with the design of radars and system architecture for LO platforms.

    SOC if we want to remain in the english language why not ,then, the second edition of "Detecting and Classifying Low Probability of Intercept Radar" by Phillip E. Pace of 2009 , moreover with one of the best section on radar pulse encoding and decoding techniques of any western open publications ?

    Because I don't have that one, so I wouldn't have thought of the title jocolor 

    Something else for me to pick up though, along with this one: http://www.scitechpub.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=344
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    NickM

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  NickM on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:36 am

    SOC wrote:Because I don't have that one, so I wouldn't have thought of the title jocolor 
    The best course material on any hardware / software related to Defense & Aerospace are published by Cranfield University .

    http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/cds/postgraduatestudy/guidedweaponsys/page16167.html
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    GarryB

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    Vityaz radar

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:53 am

    as for solid fuel ramjet i have to say kub missile development 3m9 ,,proved very troublesome 9 years Laughing , and the russians gave up on it in second generation of AA missiles -buk -solid rocket.
    as for french they had asmp for looong time....

    They switched from ramjet to solid fuel in the SA-6 to SA-11/17 because solid rocket fuel performance had increased rather more than ramjet efficiency had.

    Now however it is scramjets that offer potential rather greater than any type of solid or liquid or gel propellent... the Kh-31 continues to use ramjet and expect there to be scramjets to replace them in ARMs, AShMs and even AAMs and SAMs.


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    Giulio

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    Russian PESA and AESA radars: History

    Post  Giulio on Sat Nov 08, 2014 5:32 pm

    Hello.
    I'm sorry, but I do not have time to read all the forums.
    By dint of reading in the West about the supposed "backwardness" of Russia, I would like to hear some other bells.
    In short, could you explain briefly what a PESA radar and what an AESA radar are and, above all: is it true that the first AESA radar was on a Mig-31? Thanks for the replies.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:41 pm

    Giulio wrote:Hello.
    I'm sorry, but I do not have time to read all the forums.
    By dint of reading in the West about the supposed "backwardness" of Russia, I would like to hear some other bells.
    In short, could you explain briefly what a PESA radar and what an AESA radar are and, above all: is it true that the first AESA radar was on a Mig-31? Thanks for the replies.

    PESA

    AESA

    In short, PESA is a consentration of energy at a single point that produces a massive beam.  AESA is where you got multiple transmitters creating a beam.  Advantage of AESA is that it is harder to fight against in terms of electronic warfare and pick up its transmissions.  PESA is a lot simpler to make and cheaper too.  As well, what is not mentioned, is that PESA tends to be more accurate in its readings due to high amount of power concentrated at one point.  Problem is that it is easier to pick up its transmissions and easier to combat in EW. In modern times, most aircrafts are equipped with ECM/ECCM subsystems so that can counter this issue.

    MiG-31 radar is PESA radar.  Zaslon radar.

    Irbis-E radar is a hybrid radar (bit of both worlds).

    Phazotron has its Zhuk-A series of AESA radar and Tikhomirov NIIP has their Byelka radar which is AESA.  Zhuk-A has already been tested and flown in the MiG-29M2 for India and is being placed on Ka-52K helicopters.  Byelka is being made for PAK FA and has already been tested/flown.  Possibly can be used as well for current gen aircrafts as well.

    Ground based AESA radar systems are apparently different.  Russia has various ones, one being the NEBO SVU radar.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 03, 2015 2:23 am

    Unbelievable, Viktor and GarryB will love this! Rostec just dropped a bombshell the size of the Tsar Bomba!!! As I already pointed out the strategic importance to develop 'Photonics' (lasers replacing electrons in electronics, a field backed by the Foundation for Strategic Studies). This Rostec article recognizes that the domestic electronics industry is significantly behind the West, and also the strategic importance in jumping ahead of everyone in the field of 'Photonics'. It documents the potential of 'Photonics' when it's fully developed, and the success of KRET developing the field photonics and it's application in radars, with very promising results in the field while it's in it's infancy.


    Some VERY important data points in the article:

    1.) Electronics based on photonics will have decreased the need for 'servers' down to 1/100th the current level, and will increase the data transfer rate by 10 fold!

    2.) When fully mature photonics will allow truck based radars to have the same power, resolution, and capability as massive OTH radars!

    3.) KRET's early work in radiophotonics (photonics based radars) are incredibly promising. Developments in the field while it's in it's infancy allows airborne radars (AEW while based on photonics) weight to be cut down 1/2 the current weight, and increased the resolution by 10 fold!

    4.) Photonic based radars will have it's ECM resistance grow by several orders of magnitude! Will be heavily resistant to electro-magnetic storms...

    5.) By the 2020's photonic based AESA radars will grow by leaps and bounds in capability. The weight of AESA radar will be cut down by 1.5 to 3 times, increase the reliability and efficiency by 2 to 3 times, and increase the scanning speed and resolution by several dozen times that of contemporary AESA radars!

    6.) Photonics can also be effectively applied in housing, for example, in urban and rural heating systems. Instead of hot water energy photons will be used. They will be distributed in photonic crystal fibers with a thickness of human hair, the energy of which is converted into heat with almost 100% efficiency!

    KRET creates a laboratory for research in Photonics

    The group has been developing radar and EW systems based on new technologies



    In recent years, electronic systems all often replaced on the photon. Linked it in the first turn with a different physical nature of the photon. That same is a photon and what unique capabilities of military technology will provide a new direction – believe that radio Photonics?

    Faster electron

    Photonics is essentially analogue electronics, are used instead of electrons are quanta of the electromagnetic field – photons. These are the most common number of particles in the Universe, unlike electrons, do not have mass and charge. Therefore, photonic systems are not affected by external electromagnetic fields, have much better transmission range and bandwidth of the signal.

    As a field of science Photonics began in 1960 with the invention of the first important technical devices using photons, laser. The very term "Photonics" began to be widely used in the 1980-ies in connection with the beginning of widespread use of optical fiber transmission. By the way, in our country the first development of such fiber optic cables engaged in the design Bureau of the cable industry, now part of KRET.

    We can say that these developments have made a revolution in telecommunications in the last century and became the basis for the development of the Internet. Actually, until about 2001 Photonics was largely focused on the telecommunications.

    Today "telecommunication" Photonics helps in the creation of a new direction – radio Photonics, which arose from the fusion of electronics, wave optics, microwave optoelectronics and other fields of science and industrial production.

    In other words, believe that radio Photonics deals with the problems of transmission, reception and transformation of information by using electromagnetic waves of microwave range and photonic devices and systems. Believe that radio Photonics allows you to create radio frequency devices with the options that are unattainable for traditional electronics.

    Modern radio apparatus moves in the optical range, and ignoring this fact often leads to very serious consequences. For example, initially in the design of information and telecommunication, service and technical networks of the super-Jumbo A380 were not included photonic network. Used aluminum cable, and its length was more than 500 km away. This has led to serious problems on Board the aircraft. For their decision required a full replacement of all cable networks on each side of which was built for the A380. The result – two years of delays and almost 5 billion euros in financial losses, and the largest Corporation narrowly escaped financial collapse.



    Radiophony breakthrough

    In microelectronics Russia, as you know, behind the Western countries. It is through technologies in the field of radio Photonics invited to compete. Today Russian scientists in the sphere of defense technologies consider it impossible to give up electrons and to pay attention to the photons which have no mass and fly faster.

    According to experts, servers, operating on the principles of Photonics, decreased a hundred times compared to the current, and the data transfer rate would be increased tenfold.

    Or, for example, a ground radar station. Today, this radar is a multi-storey building, but if you start to believe that radio Photonics work, then the station can be installed on a conventional truck. The efficiency and range will be exactly the same – thousands of kilometers. Several mobile and small complexes can be combined into a network, which will increase characteristics of these radars.


    Believe that radio Photonics instead of electronics

    Photonic technologies will significantly expand the capabilities and airborne radars. New developments in this area more than twice reduce the weight of existing antennas and radars, tenfold increase their resolution. Also radiophonic antennas will be a unique resistance to electromagnetic pulses, which occur, for example, during close lightning strikes or when solar magnetic storms.

    All this will create a broadband radars that level of resolution and speed can be called radar vision. Such system is also planned in the civil sphere, for example, on high-speed trains for instant detection of obstacles on the tracks.

    Photonics can also be effectively applied in housing, for example, in urban and rural heating systems. Instead of hot water energy will act photons. They will be distributed in photonic crystal fibers with a thickness of human hair, the energy of which is converted into heat with almost 100% efficiency.

    Laboratory of the future

    In Russia radiophonie technology develops KRET. Today, the group and the Foundation for advanced studies working on a promising project "Development of active phased array-based radio Photonics" (ROPAR). The project includes the creation of a special laboratory on the basis of the Concern and the development of universal technology, which will be the basis for radar and electronic warfare systems for the new generation.

    According to KRET CEO Nikolai Kolesov, the latest technology will allow in 2020 to create an effective and advanced transmitting / receiving apparatus, radar, electronic intelligence and electronic countermeasures of the new generation.

    One of the main areas of work will be the creation of an active phased array (AESA) of the new generation, in which the main elements were created using the principles of radio Photonics. They will reduce the weight of the system is 1.5-3 times increase in 2-3 times the reliability and efficiency, as well as dozens of times to increase the scanning speed and resolution.


    If successful, the technology will open up new opportunities for improving the "smart skin" that will be on the Russian aircraft of the latest generation, including the PAK FA. Such a system of built-in elements throughout the area of the fuselage will allow the crew to get in any time solid radar picture within a radius of 360 degrees, will provide for the operation of antenna systems in active and passive radar, raising all kinds of noise, secretive and noise-immune data transmission, communication with the ground and other aircraft, hoopsnake and more.

    In addition, on the basis of new materials and elements, created on the basis of the principles of Photonics, KRET will learn the advanced technologies of high-power photodetectors and semiconductor laser modules.

    KRET creates a laboratory for research in the field of photonics
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 03, 2015 9:43 am

    Big news...thanks for posting
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun May 03, 2015 8:54 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Big news...thanks for posting

    I think the article gave us an outline on what will make up the characteristics of a 2nd-gen AESA. The raw capability, as well as what compromises the elements of the next gen AESA. It wont be just a new radar emitting element, made up of a different chemical composition, it will also include made up of photonic equipment (where the true capability will come from).

    The article also specifically stated that the PAK-FA will be one of the first receipts of a 2nd gen photonic based AESA.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 04, 2015 6:26 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:Big news...thanks for posting

    I think the article gave us an outline on what will make up the characteristics of a 2nd-gen AESA. The raw capability, as well as what compromises the elements of the next gen AESA. It wont be just a new radar emitting element, made up of a different chemical composition, it will also include made up of photonic equipment (where the true capability will come from).

    The article also specifically stated that the PAK-FA will be one of the first receipts of a 2nd gen photonic based AESA.

    I was curious what you were saying by second generation Photon AESA, since current AESA isn't technically technology using photons. But you are right, after re-reading what you are saying, next gen technology being of AESA radar systems built around photons will surely be impressive and new. Problem is about saying "technologically backwards" is not necessarily correct. If you follow the same path as the west, you will always be behind because one is not trying to create something new or different, but trying to create the same while they create the standards and it is always a game of catchup, but being able to create your own standard and your own technology that isn't direct competitor but something else entirely, is where you will be ahead, especially if what you create brings your own benefits. It is like in semiconductor technology - Russia is definitely behind in x86 processing technology but that is because they don't create it, while they are ahead of the west in VLIW RISC technology since Intel dropped their Itanium line of processors and Russia is having far better performance outcome with their VLIW processors. Or the introduction of Microclets none Vonn Newmann cell processors.

    Anyway, without digressing, thank you for the link. This is surely going to be huge and KRET along with Rostec knows exactly what they need to do to keep up and be ahead in the game. Rostec has shown that being a NGO itself, they have been very effective of what they do (check out Schwabs achievements for example).

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Sun May 24, 2015 9:39 pm

    One of the critical technologies that Russia seems to be lagging behind the West is in AESA radars for fighters. Su-35S doesn't have it, and I recently read that the first batches of MiG-35 won't also. Anyone knows why? Are Russian AESA radars like the Zhuk-A fully developed and tested? Can they be mass-produced? If so, why are not fighters still equipped with it?
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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Werewolf on Mon May 25, 2015 2:36 am

    Currently russia is lagging behind in production numbers due the sell out and closure of MIC and lot of other sectors and companies under Yeltzin and russia is rebuilding it to necessary level.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 25, 2015 3:45 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:One of the critical technologies that Russia seems to be lagging behind the West is in AESA radars for fighters. Su-35S doesn't have it, and I recently read that the first batches of MiG-35 won't also. Anyone knows why? Are Russian AESA radars like the Zhuk-A fully developed and tested? Can they be mass-produced? If so, why are not fighters still equipped with it?

    No, MiG-35 will definitely have AESA, even initial batches, because that is what the MiG-35's main feature is.  Outside of that, no sale as it is simply a MiG-29M/M2.

    AESA radar tech is what USA went with, while Russia went another route, PESA.  PESA and AESA both have their pros and cons.  Example is power output and how much raw power a radar can produce (PESA) vs AESA with its electronic warfare advantages.  Irbis-E on Su-35's are Hybrid radar where they take a bit of both worlds, but look at it in this perspective: Irbis-E is effectively the most powerful radar for a fighter jet.  It has detection/tracking ranges greater than any other jet.  They get that through its raw power.

    AESA is getting attention now since Russia produces GaN modules that are required in making AESA radar.  They have a few flying testbeds of course.  One with 600 or so T/R modules and another with over 1000 T/R modules.  The one tested on PAK FA has over 1500 T/R modules.  At the moment though, production is lower due to the fact that they are starting out production of it, and not many things in service use it.  Technically, the A-100's being built are going to be the first to fully use them.  N036 isn't quite finished yet as it still is being tested and what not, and I think they are looking for ways to improve Zhuk-A performance more.

    With what Magnum posted though, may give us the indication that they may hold off development a bit till they get the idea of using photons for AESA radar in order to improve its performance greatly, before introducing them.  But that is another 5 years away.  So initially, they may entertain Mikoyan with introduction of MiG-35's in service with the current Zhuk-AM radar and PAK FA's with their N036 till 2020 when Photon technology is introduced to it, and they can start improving the currently platforms with it and future AESA radar.

    But for time being, using PESA radar (Zaslon AM - MiG-31BM's, BARS - Su-30SM, V004 - Su-34) and Hybrid - (Irbis-E - Su-35) are more than enough as they provide performances that has no alternative to in terms of raw power.  They substitute its weak EW, ECM, ECCM capabilities with add on pods.  Su-35's even use AESA L-Band radar modules on the wings.

    Edit: I have also read that Zhuk radars are highly modular and it doesn't take much to upgrade Zhuk-M to Zhuk-A.  Dunno how true that is though.

    One radar that is rarely mentioned, and cannot find much information on it (quite secretive) is the V004 for the Su-34's. Apparently according to some, V004 with modern electronics has detection ranges of upwards to 200km and it has advanced ground mapping capabilities. Add in its heavy EW capabilities, the V004 radar is quite more powerful than most modern fighters radars these days. But cannot really find much on it.

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  Svyatoslavich on Mon May 25, 2015 4:51 am

    sepheronx wrote:No, MiG-35 will definitely have AESA, even initial batches, because that is what the MiG-35's main feature is.  Outside of that, no sale as it is simply a MiG-29M/M2.
    Thanks for your complete explanation. Regarding MiG-35, I read it earlier in March that the first batch (30 planes) of the MiG-35 contract won't have AESA radar:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/1775588
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  sepheronx on Mon May 25, 2015 4:55 am

    Svyatoslavich wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:No, MiG-35 will definitely have AESA, even initial batches, because that is what the MiG-35's main feature is.  Outside of that, no sale as it is simply a MiG-29M/M2.
    Thanks for your complete explanation. Regarding MiG-35, I read it earlier in March that the first batch (30 planes) of the MiG-35 contract won't have AESA radar:
    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/1775588

    Probably an error or they are not buying MiG-35's but MiG-29M's.  There are of course other features that MiG-35's have over MiG-29M's but ultimately, that is what these would be.  Unless they are purchasing them with the ability of having them upgraded once the radars are available.

    Edit: So essentially they are purchasing what is considered MiG-35's but initial batch wont have AESA radar till the production of the airframes are proper then the AESAs production will start in being "proper". I see.

    victor1985

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  victor1985 on Mon May 25, 2015 7:18 am

    Sukhoi37_Terminator wrote:Here is some information I found about the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-06.html





    So...what are the main problems at making a L-band radar? It request bigger equipment? More power? Big antenna?

    victor1985

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  victor1985 on Mon May 25, 2015 7:44 am

    medo wrote:I couldn't answer you exactly here, because I'm now behind the time. I'm now some years out of military and I never worked with digital PESA or AESA radar, only with analogue mechanical one generation from eighties. But I think some things are the same.

    You have to know, that radar signal, which go from emitter become weaker, before it reach target and than signal, which go back from target to receiver again become weaker. Ergo, if RWR detector is the same sensitive as is radar receiver, than could detect radar emissions in twice of radar range. It only depend in which frequencies it listen. The jammer is most effective, when its emitting in the same frequency is stronger, than signal, which radar send and come back from target. As I hear in past it was a big problem with OSA (SAM-8 ), that it was actually unjammable, because it have so high power radar, that jammers on planes could not overcome with noise the power of returning signal. But it need very skilled operators, who know to look in crude radar picture.

    AESA and PESA radars have lower power signals, so old RWR detectors could not register them and ignore hem as noise. But newer RWR detectors sensitivities could be suited for those radars. Jammers could easily overcome with power of noise the power of returning signal, but AESA and PESA radars could easier change frequencies with frequency hoping, so the jamming noise is not in the proper frequency as returning signal and radar then easily ignore jamming noise in wrong frequency and see target. But in peace time all radars work only in peace time frequency without hoping. But I think modern radars with modern digital computers could quite effectively do with jamming in constant frequency with coding signals.
    Maibe if the radar would use short pulses of strong signal.....thus prevent energy loosing and test the jammer capability. Also if the signal become weaker whit yhw distance is true for jammers too....that could tell a strategy to make. When you are far away from jammers use much power when you are close use less. Also if the enemy dont know wich frecvency and power do you operate will try it all include the end and start wich can perform. In this you could see fast what enemy can. And is not only about power. Noise means must add same signals. That depend of the algorithm you use on on emitting signals. Jumping fast in signals to cover all the posibilityes has a limit. Thus for blocking a x ghz signal mean that they must fast changing frecvency. You could simply do the trick whit staying on same frecvency. Then a cpu will calculate the algorithm of noise. And use correct algorithm for you.

    victor1985

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  victor1985 on Mon May 25, 2015 9:00 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Giulio wrote:Hello.
    I'm sorry, but I do not have time to read all the forums.
    By dint of reading in the West about the supposed "backwardness" of Russia, I would like to hear some other bells.
    In short, could you explain briefly what a PESA radar and what an AESA radar are and, above all: is it true that the first AESA radar was on a Mig-31? Thanks for the replies.

    PESA

    AESA

    In short, PESA is a consentration of energy at a single point that produces a massive beam.  AESA is where you got multiple transmitters creating a beam.  Advantage of AESA is that it is harder to fight against in terms of electronic warfare and pick up its transmissions.  PESA is a lot simpler to make and cheaper too.  As well, what is not mentioned, is that PESA tends to be more accurate in its readings due to high amount of power concentrated at one point.  Problem is that it is easier to pick up its transmissions and easier to combat in EW.  In modern times, most aircrafts are equipped with ECM/ECCM subsystems so that can counter this issue.

    MiG-31 radar is PESA radar.  Zaslon radar.

    Irbis-E radar is a hybrid radar (bit of both worlds).

    Phazotron has its Zhuk-A series of AESA radar and Tikhomirov NIIP has their Byelka radar which is AESA.  Zhuk-A has already been tested and flown in the MiG-29M2 for India and is being placed on Ka-52K helicopters.  Byelka is being made for PAK FA and has already been tested/flown.  Possibly can be used as well for current gen aircrafts as well.

    Ground based AESA radar systems are apparently different.  Russia has various ones, one being the NEBO SVU radar.
    The PESA work by the rule that two or more radar or other waves when they meet each other become one single wave whit longer wavelenght? A PESA/AESA combination can be maked? Oh that is irbis....
    But then just free up space in the plane make in bigger and make a big PESA radar....
    Also a user from forum said that noise come in spikes...just transmit on that spike frecvencies and you get no jamming. But then the enemy would try to reach lots of spikes....that consume battery...but aircrafts have electric generators that work non stop.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 26, 2015 1:01 pm

    Seems to be the trend today.... the Eurofighter entered service well before all its capabilities and systems were ready.

    I think people are not appreciating the problems with AESA production... the MiG-35 has an array of over 1,000 by 1,000 transmit/receive modules... that is 1 million modules per aircraft... which is a lot to produce.

    the first ones can be hundreds or even thousands of dollars each to make but over time and improvements in production the quality and production capacity goes up and the dud rate goes down... remember a dud module costs the same amount to make as a good module... you just can't use it on a radar antenna.

    At the end of the day if the first 30 aircraft don't have an AESA that is not the end of the world... as later planes get the AESA radars the production numbers will increase as will production capacity and new designs and new technology to make them better and cheaper... once that happens those first production aircraft can get replacement radar antenna fitted for rather less money than it would cost if they sold them with under tested and under developed experimental models.


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    Re: Russian PESA and AESA Radars

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