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    F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

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    nightcrawler

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    F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:49 pm

    What about this


    Austin

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:52 am

    Most certainly an AESA radar with an AESA jammer which gives it a flexibility of high bandwidth plus smart energy management which give it an edge over advanced high power PESA like the S-300/400 have at the moment.

    AESA besides having good jamming ability has very good resistance to jamming making it a difficult target to jam and they tend to degrade slowly.

    Although there is still a good decade from now where we will see wide spread of AESA radar , it high time they get into development of advanced AESA for next generation of SAM and even current sam which will help in low usage of power and offer high immunity to jamming , the S-500 certainly have a AESA MFR.

    That is by no means to say it is easy to jam the radar of these advanced and mature PESA have their own trick up their sleeve like adaptive beam control ,frequency agility , variable power wave form and low side lobes making it as difficult as it gets to jam it , more ever if the enemy aircraft is emmiting like JSF is being shown to then it makes their stealth factor vulnerabile and detectability high which can make them a good target via passive missile attack.

    The bottom line will be to get into AESA domain preferably using advanced GaN TR module and dual mode radar then exploit the technology to the fullest to give it an advantage over other systems.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  nightcrawler on Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:45 pm

    @austin

    Thnx for info.
    I am a chm egg dont know much about radars things.........But do tell me in layman language what is no. of S-300 missiles be adequate to take down one F-35
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    GarryB

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    F-35 JSF APG-81 AESA Radar

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:21 am

    It is almost impossible to say.

    One for one during tests in the early 1990s with former East German Mig-29s all of the wests best fighters went and tested themselves against it and lost because of the helmet mounted sight and the R-73 AAM with its high off boresight capability.
    Very simply aircraft like the F-16 could get on the Mig-29s tail about 60% of the time but even when they did they had already been "shot down".
    These tests were made as realistic as possible to properly test various scenarios, but after the tests and the practise and training when western fighters did meet Mig-29s in combat it was very one sided... largely because the western fighters had trained against Mig-29s already... and you don't train to see how nice the other plane is, you train to find strengths and weaknesses... to beat the enemy.
    They found its strengths and its weaknesses and used it against them when they met in real combat.
    Basically what they learned is to use AMRAAMs.

    To defeat the F-35... the F-35 is stealthy but not invisible. The S-400 which is replacing the S-300 in service, is designed to intercept small radar cross section targets, and even if they don't work there are plenty of other SAMs that would be deployed to do the job. Most Russian SAMs have alternative optical guidance options that would allow the engagement of small RCS targets. And of course there are Russian fighters as well, the Su-35 has an AESA long wave radar antenna in its wing leading edges to find low observable and stealth targets and the PAK FA will have something similar too.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:32 pm

    Just for laughs people, are the U.S. stronk crew actually this delusional lol??? There's F-35 Lightning II promotional videos demonstrating that they can defeat S-300V4/Antey-2500 easily lol... lol1 lol1 lol1



    ...At the 2:42 mark. Can anyone spot all the inaccuracies in the F-35 vs S-300V4 scenario lol? Very Happy Wink
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    medo

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  medo on Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Just for laughs people, are the U.S. stronk crew actually this delusional lol??? There's F-35 Lightning II promotional videos demonstrating that they can defeat S-300V4/Antey-2500 easily lol... lol1 lol1 lol1



    ...At the 2:42 mark. Can anyone spot all the inaccuracies in the F-35 vs S-300V4 scenario lol? Very Happy Wink

    Russia had an answer more than a decade ago. I remember, that I was reading at the end of the nineties or in the beginning of 2000, that Russian PVO made tests with Orion ELINT complex and Buk-M1-2, where Orion complex triangulate any source of aircraft emission in enough small box, that Buk-M1-2 could engage the target without using its own radars. Any emission from F-35, being radar, data ling, communications, IFF, TACAN, etc, could very precisely triangulate its position with Orion or other similar ELINT complexes without even noticing in F-35.
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    ahmedfire

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  ahmedfire on Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:48 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Just for laughs people, are the U.S. stronk crew actually this delusional lol??? There's F-35 Lightning II promotional videos demonstrating that they can defeat S-300V4/Antey-2500 easily lol... lol1 lol1 lol1



    ...At the 2:42 mark. Can anyone spot all the inaccuracies in the F-35 vs S-300V4 scenario lol? Very Happy Wink

    Craaap,
    If F-35 / F-22 want to be really stealth, than they must turn off everything: radar, IFF, voice com, data com, ECM, etc, what means in that case F-35 / F-22 will be blind too. If they are emitting anything, they could be triangulated in quite big distance and air defense organization could work against them, There is no such thing as invisibility to radar and to all wavelenghts. There is a reason why the russians have loads of different radars with very different wavelengths.
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:27 pm

    medo wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Just for laughs people, are the U.S. stronk crew actually this delusional lol??? There's F-35 Lightning II promotional videos demonstrating that they can defeat S-300V4/Antey-2500 easily lol... lol1 lol1 lol1



    ...At the 2:42 mark. Can anyone spot all the inaccuracies in the F-35 vs S-300V4 scenario lol? Very Happy Wink

    Russia had an answer more than a decade ago. I remember, that I was reading at the end of the nineties or in the beginning of 2000, that Russian PVO made tests with Orion ELINT complex and Buk-M1-2, where Orion complex triangulate any source of aircraft emission in enough small box, that Buk-M1-2 could engage the target without using its own radars. Any emission from F-35, being radar, data ling, communications, IFF, TACAN, etc, could very precisely triangulate its position with Orion or other similar ELINT complexes without even noticing in F-35.

    Interesting point. The problems that I saw in the video was:

    1.) The absence of effective SHORAD systems. No Tunguska, no Tor, no Pantsir.

    2.) The absence of ground based electronic warfare systems.

    3.) The max range of AN/APG-81 AESA of the F-35 is 150 km, while max missile engagement range of Antey-2500 (export) is 350 km, and the domestic S-300V4 is 400km, almost 3 times greater range than the F-35's AESA radar.

    4.) The power emitted from the S-300V4 battery is probably several times greater than that of the AN/APG-81, so it's extremely unlikely that the F-35 could jam the S-300V4.

    ...That's just from the atop of my head.
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    Mike E

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  Mike E on Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:19 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    medo wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:Just for laughs people, are the U.S. stronk crew actually this delusional lol??? There's F-35 Lightning II promotional videos demonstrating that they can defeat S-300V4/Antey-2500 easily lol... lol1 lol1 lol1



    ...At the 2:42 mark. Can anyone spot all the inaccuracies in the F-35 vs S-300V4 scenario lol? Very Happy Wink

    Russia had an answer more than a decade ago. I remember, that I was reading at the end of the nineties or in the beginning of 2000, that Russian PVO made tests with Orion ELINT complex and Buk-M1-2, where Orion complex triangulate any source of aircraft emission in enough small box, that Buk-M1-2 could engage the target without using its own radars. Any emission from F-35, being radar, data ling, communications, IFF, TACAN, etc, could very precisely triangulate its position with Orion or other similar ELINT complexes without even noticing in F-35.

    Interesting point. The problems that I saw in the video was:

    1.) The absence of effective SHORAD systems. No Tunguska, no Tor, no Pantsir.

    2.) The absence of ground based electronic warfare systems.

    3.) The max range of AN/APG-81 AESA of the F-35 is 150 km, while max missile engagement range of Antey-2500 (export) is 350 km, and the domestic S-300V4 is 400km, almost 3 times greater range than the F-35's AESA radar.

    4.) The power emitted from the S-300V4 battery is probably several times greater than that of the AN/APG-81, so it's extremely unlikely that the F-35 could jam the S-300V4.

    ...That's just from the atop of my head.
    Who are you kidding Magnum... We all know the F-35's amazing powerful radar can jam anything from any range.
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    VladimirSahin

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  VladimirSahin on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:05 am

    F-35 is not a joke guys... Russia doesn't have any programs near its design... Its one of the most capable VTOL 5th generation flying practice target for Russian anti air defense Very Happy But seriously, To what targets and at what range is the F-35s jamming able?
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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:57 am

    VladimirSahin wrote:F-35 is not a joke guys... Russia doesn't have any programs near its design... Its one of the most capable VTOL 5th generation flying practice target for Russian anti air defense Very Happy But seriously, To what targets and at what range is the F-35s jamming able?

    Other aircraft of an older generation, with older generation radars that are not jamming resistant, that are not high quality AESA's. It's definitely not more powerful than the PAK-FA's X-band AESA, with a range of 400km, it's nearly 3 times the range of APG-81. Seeing how so many countries were convinced in to buying F-35's, a likely scenario would be F-35's vs S-400's, where both vehicles would be wielding AESA, except the S-400's AESA has a 2,500km range as opposed to the F-35's 150km range, and the S-400's L-band AESA is several times more powerful, and would have no problem detecting the F-35. As GarryB pointed out earlier in the thread, the S-400's 2,500km range AESA would have a very powerful jamming capability built into it.

    victor1985

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  victor1985 on Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:54 am

    What mean jamming a radar? Burning equipment because of your radar longer wavelenght?
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    medo

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    F-35 vs Russian SAMs

    Post  medo on Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:58 am

    Now imagine different scenario. F-35 is attacking Iranian air space. Iran also have Avtobaza ELINT complex, so they could effectively triangulate exact location of F-35 in Iranian air space and deliver this target to the nearest Iranian KS-19 100 mm AAA battery with modern FCS complex, which lock this F-35 in optical mode with TV or TI and measure distance with laser range finder. Modern ballistic computer could very precisely calculate a point of hit of 100 mm round with F-35 in the air. So what in this process could this super AESA radar jam?

    moskit

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    EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  moskit on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:00 am

    An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:06 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia

    Did this "test" have a reasonable "difficulty level" like a Krashua-4 ECM/ECCM nodes flooding the area and jamming the F-35 and the SM-6 active radar?  Or Nebo VHF AESA radars providing targetting data to long-range fire-and-forget SAMs to suppress stealth aircraft intrusions?

    No?  Didn't think so......

    In reality, Aegis cruisers will be a little busy trying to stay alive from saturation attacks of Oniks and Kalibre AShMs, not to mention torpedos and other heavier Soviet-era beasties like Bazalt & Granit, the kind of weapons where a single hit will obliterate a billion dollar Aegis cruiser and leave a gaping hole in Yankistani capabilities.

    Testing of Yankistani "wonder-weapons" in ideal conditions following a excruciating exact setup with meticulous planning doesn't install any fear into this little black duck.....

    russia
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    GarryB

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:50 am

    Russian AWACS aircraft can direct S-400 batteries to targets and control the missiles launched.


    An Su-30 was used to direct an R-37 missile to a target 300km away from a MiG-31 during tests of the R-37 missile. When fully developed the upgraded MiG-31 would have the radar capability to detect and engage the target at that range but during this test the MiG-31 had its old radar and lacked the range to detect and track the target itself. An Su-30 detected the target and passed the target data to the MiG so it could fire its missile and destroy the target without actually seeing it itself.

    PVO aircraft and missile systems are generally used to datalinks like this...


    BTW this sort of target data sharing has nothing to do with EW.

    EW is generally considered Electronic warfare... not early warning.


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    Flanky

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  Flanky on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:02 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia
    I would argue that the F-35 using active sensor like radar would still remain "hidden"...
    Russians have lots of passive aircraft detection systems like the old Kolchuga system that works by detecting RF emissions.
    So the entire idea of detecting a target actively and aiding a differrent unit in the attack of that target would make sense if one can detect the target in a passive mode, not in active mode like Radar...

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:51 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia

    It is marketing .

    The SM-6 long range active radar homing rocket, so if you specify the target coordinates by 10-50 km precision then it will found the target.

    It means that if the pilot simply tell the target coordinates over the radio it still good enough to launch the rocket.
    So the data link is nice, and saving valuable pilot time, but not neccesary.


    And the grippen/mig 31 has similar capabilities Smile

    And the f-35 will be not so stealth, so any other airplane can do this job.
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    hoom

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:57 am

    Well I was reading an interesting thing about F-35 issues the other day (annoyingly I can't seem to find it again :-/ was an official report to Congress or something & definitely after last months' IOC announcement):
    Among various other significant issues they have a really major one where not only do different sensors on the same aircraft produce multiple separate tracks for the same target, it's exponentially multiplied when offboard sensors are linked in & the only way they can 'pass' tests is by disabling multiple sensors & careful scenario building.

    The gist was that while stuff like gun software have fairly solid (but incredibly long) planned timeline for fixes, this massive Sensor Fusion issue hasn't even got any kind of timeline for a fix.

    Another issue but not gone into detail was that onboard ECM/Jammer was 'not able to deal with known threats' ie presumably Russian (could also mean EU/China stuff) & the current revision lacks any kind of standoff weapon -> is incapable of SEAD missions.
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    kvs

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:34 pm

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    hoom

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:27 am

    Cool, re-found the report I was looking for via a link off that article
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3035572-DOT-amp-E-AF-IOC-Memo.html
    Worth a read.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:39 am

    hoom wrote:Cool, re-found the report I was looking for via a link off that article
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3035572-DOT-amp-E-AF-IOC-Memo.html
    Worth a read.

    Jesus, talk about a damning report.
    This thing is without question a flying coffin, EW that ain't all that, Fuel guzzling while already small fuel capacity, sensor fusion that just creates errors, DAS that can't mark friend or foe, constant AWACS support needed and a gun that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

    Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if all this sh#t gets cancelled and they ask Apple to make a better 5th gen fighter for them.
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    hoom

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:22 am

    a gun that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn
    The truly bizzare thing is that apparently nobody thought that just maybe when you open the flaps over the gun it might affect airflow.
    Thats not 'oh things didn't quite work out as they were supposed to' like a bunch of the issues with F-35, its unthinkable gross incompetence confused

    In addition, flight sciences testing of the F-35A recently revealed that the small doors that open when the gun shoots induce a yaw (i.e. sideslip), resulting in gun aiming errors that exceed accuracy specifications.
    As a result, additional software changes to the flight control laws, very late in the flight test program, may be needed to cancel out the yaw when the gun doors are open.
    ...
    The most recent program office schedule estimates that gun modifications will not be completed on the OT&E aircraft until 2020.

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    Re: F-35 vs Russian Air Defence

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