Mi-28N Havoc: News

Firebird wrote:How would a state of the art Russian chopper like this fare against a good/very good fighter jet?

I know we're told that jets are far faster, more powerful etc, with a much greater range.
But we're also told how important missiles are today. How fully laden could this chopper (or a larger one) be in missiles vs a good jet?

Choppers could use natural and man made terrain to hide, defend itself or evade attacks.
But I'd imagine that in wide spaces and at altitude the chopper would be at a considerable disadvantage. However, at lower level... perhaps the chopper could use some clever techniques?

Has anyone seen and recent reports on this or have any views?

0 chances against a fighter. Unless the fighter's pilot is stupid.

A better question would be comparing a choper and a Su-25 for strike role and vehicle destruction and their survivability on a modern battlefield.

The first batch of Mi-28UB serial helicopters is ready for transfer to the Ministry of Defense of Russia

Helicopters of Russia JSC (part of Rostekh State Corporation) reported on October 19, 2017 about the readiness of the first batch of combat-training helicopters Mi-28UB for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. Machines passed the whole complex of factory tests. The first helicopters are planned for transfer to the military department in November 2017.


One of the combat-training helicopters Mi-28UB (number 01 "white") from the first batch of helicopters of this modification, built for the Russian Civil Aviation Committee at Rostvertol JSC (part of the Helicopters of Russia JSC). Rostov-on-Don, 10/19/2017 (with) Evgeny Baranov / JSC "Helicopters of Russia"


The main difference between the Mi-28UB is a dual control system that allows to fly a helicopter both from the cockpit of the pilot-commander of the crew and from the cockpit of the pilot-operator. Due to this, it is possible to train military pilots who need a practice of flying on "Night Hunters". In addition, in combat conditions, in the event of an abnormal situation, the control of the car can be taken over by the second crew member.

The helicopter also has a mock-up simulator, which allows simulating the pilot's failure in flight and improving the learner's training in a crisis situation.

"We are pleased to announce the readiness of the first batch of Mi-28UB helicopters.Of course, we are constantly working on improving the Mi-28 helicopter taking into account its application in Syria.The appearance of the combat training version opens almost unlimited possibilities in improving the Mi-28N pilots training system. I note that the possibility of training not on a simulator, but on a real combat helicopter, is a great advantage of our military pilots in comparison with colleagues from other countries. In the near future, the transfer of Mi-28UB to representatives of B CS, "- said Andrei Boginsky, the general director of the holding company" Russian Helicopters ".

The first prototype Mi-28UB was manufactured by Rostvertol. After the completion of a large-scale factory and state testing program, at the end of 2015 the helicopter was put into serial production.

The Mi-28UB is equipped with a modernized integrated complex of onboard radioelectronic equipment. The use of this complex allows for effective search, detection, detection and defeat of ground and air targets.

To ensure the necessary ergonomic parameters of crew workplaces, the fuselage structure of the helicopter was changed. The Mi-28UB expanded the cabin, increased the area of ​​armored glazing and improved the view from the operator's workplace. To improve combat survivability, the Mi-28UB installed the newest on-board defense complex.


On the bmpd side, we recall that in April 2016, the Russian Ministry of Defense entered into a contract with Helicopters of Russia JSC for the serial delivery of the first 24 Mi-28UB helicopters to the Russian military aerospace industry by the end of 2018. Construction of helicopters of the Mi-28 family is carried out at Rostvertol JSC (part of the Helicopters of Russia JSC) in Rostov-on-Don. In August 2017, the press service of Russian Helicopters reported that by the end of 2017, the first Russian military helicopter should be transferred to the first eight Mi-28UB helicopters under this contract, and that the first two helicopters had already been tested at that time.

At present, cars with on-board numbers "01 white", "06 white", "15 red" and "215 blue" are identified from the first production batch of Mi-28UB helicopters built.





https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2905178.html

I was looking up rocket systems in the Apache and found out about the BAE systems APKWS guidance package for the Hydra-70 and wondered whether Russia had an equivalent system and found the Ugroza guidance package for the S-5, S-8 and S-13, but noticed that they all had different sizes and wondered how Ugroza could be compatible, but more importantly i also noticed that compared to the Hydra-70 the Russian systems don't come close to it's range of 8-10km.
So what's going on here, technical or doctrinal issue??

The effective range of a rocket is determined by its ability to land within a distance of the target aimed at....

The ballistic range is the distance the rocket will land when fired.

Without guidance such rockets are fired over very short ranges.... we are talking about2-3km at mosr most of the time.

With guidance then these weapons can be lofted into the air and the guidance ensures they hit what they are being aimed at.

Most of the time the targets unguided rockets are used to engage precision is not that critical... a group of enemy troops in the open means you are hardly going to aim to hit each person. An even spread of explosive fragmentation rockets gives a good effect.

The facts are that Western missiles are very expensive so for lessor targets a cheaper lighter guided rocket makes a lot of sense for them.

The Russian missiles like ATAKA and SHTURM are not so expensive and can be used in much greater numbers, so unguided rockets can be used as unguided rockets.

Not to say Ugroza is a bad idea, but they actually have a much wider range of unguided rockets to pick from and most of the time they have guided options already.

The S-25L guided rocket has a warhead of 150kg and a flight range of 8-10km, but they also have S-24 and 122mm and 80mm rockets as well.

Now that the Mils and Kamovs have become sophisticated night and all weather capable helos and of course the Su-25 has also had improvements, guided rockets would make more sense allowing attacks from greater standoff distances with lofted launches. but their work on computer aided aiming systems suggests they prefer to keep using dumb weapons and using smart aiming instead.

AlfaT8 wrote:I was looking up rocket systems in the Apache and found out about the BAE systems APKWS guidance package for the Hydra-70 and wondered whether Russia had an equivalent system and found the Ugroza guidance package for the S-5, S-8 and S-13, but noticed that they all had different sizes and wondered how Ugroza could be compatible, but more importantly i also noticed that compared to the Hydra-70 the Russian systems don't come close to it's range of 8-10km.
So what's going on here, technical or doctrinal issue??

It is very simple to why the Hydra's are longer range than the S-8's.

The rocket fuel in Hydra's burns slow and gives a continues thrust to have high range. "Long arm doctrine" to have capability to shoot against enemies from further away.

Russian unguided rockets have short range because the rocket fuel and rocket engines are quick burning engines. The idea behind this is to not leave any smoke plumes or trails behind when the rockets land on the enemy. Giving them no indicator from which position the helicopters are coming. In situations when rockets hit enemy site they have enough time to prepare for Anti Aircraft roll with weapons they have.

That has its pros and cons obviously. The contra is the smoke created is intense for about 20-30m infront of the helicopter and then no smoke at all. Short range but from 2km hardly visible for the enemy even under clear weather, because smoke does not stay for long.

The Ministry of Defense of Russia signed a contract for the installation lot of Mi-28NM helicopters

As the newspaper "Krasnaya Zvezda" reported on December 17, 2017 in Yury Avdeev's article "Helicopter Guard: Improved Version", the Ministry of Defense of Russia entered into a state contract with the holding company "Helicopters of Russia" for the production of the installation batch of new Mi-28NM helicopters. According to the terms of the contract, the first two cars will be manufactured before the end of 2018.

- The shape of the Mi-28NM is significantly different from the basic version of the Mi-28N helicopter. First of all, the functionality of the combat vehicle was improved by changing the ergonomics of the cockpit and installing a backup helicopter control system in the cockpit of the pilot operator. The car purchased a modified fuselage, upgraded engines, on-board radio electronic equipment and sight-sighting system, a new auxiliary power unit, communications equipment with unmanned aerial vehicles, "said Deputy Defense Minister Yury Borisov.

With the novelty, as they say, live and more detailed the Deputy Minister of Defense got acquainted even during the recent visit of "Rostvertol". He was shown her in the workshop of the plant, told about the work done, the test results and plans for further improvement of the machine.

Each of the constructive or technical innovations significantly changes the possibilities of the helicopter for the better. For example, the installation of new high-powered engines on the Mi-28NM allowed to increase the flight performance of the helicopter. In comparison with the classic, the so-called "Night Hunter", the volume of fuel tanks has been increased, due to which the range of the new modification has increased.

Among the advantages of the novelty - the resistance to combat damage, achieved through the use of new materials and design solutions. The rotor blades of the helicopter are made of composite materials, which, according to the developers, can withstand the impact of projectiles with calibres up to 30 mm.

All offers of factory workers, the possibilities of a new modification were carefully studied in the military department. The result of this work was the signing of the contract.

"The survivability and combat effectiveness of the new machine have significantly increased," the Deputy Defense Minister noted, commenting on the signed contract. - The helicopter received a laser on-board defense complex and a new weapon control system that allows the use of new types of airborne weapons with a radar and laser guidance system at greater distances.

Yuriy Borisov emphasized that the Mi-28NM is planning to install a prospective helmet-type targeting and guidance system that, together with a supersonic radar station, will significantly improve the combat effectiveness of the aviation complex in all weather conditions.

"We decided that further contracting for the" twenty-eighth "cars will be conducted in favor of the Mi-28NM," the Deputy Minister of Defense summed up.

On the bmpd side, recall that the prototype OP-1 of the modernized Mi-28NM combat helicopter ("Article 296", Rocket "Avangard-3") was built in 2015 at Rostvertol JSC. "The OP-1 test in hover mode was started at JSC "Moscow Helicopter Plant named after ML Mil (July 29, 2016), and a full flight test - October 12, 2016.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3010717.html

How would a state of the art Russian chopper like this fare against a good/very good fighter jet?

I know we're told that jets are far faster, more powerful etc, with a much greater range.
But we're also told how important missiles are today. How fully laden could this chopper (or a larger one) be in missiles vs a good jet?

Choppers could use natural and man made terrain to hide, defend itself or evade attacks.
But I'd imagine that in wide spaces and at altitude the chopper would be at a considerable disadvantage. However, at lower level... perhaps the chopper could use some clever techniques?

Has anyone seen and recent reports on this or have any views?

Despite what you see in a video game a helicopter is at a huge disadvantage against a fighter.

A fighter has the speed to come or go and the helicopter can just watch.

The fighter has a dedicated air to air radar that sees to great ranges and also has WVR and BVR missiles that can reach targets from extended ranges.... including low flying hovering targets.


Any fighter pilot will stay high and fast and engage the helo from a distance... the helo would not be able to do anything about it as it is armed with WVR missiles at best.

Even if you arm a Ka-52K with an R-77 it will have limited range as it will be fired from low speed and not very high altitude... it will have less than half the range of the same missile fired from a fighter at speed and altitude.

Most fighters would also carry more AAMs than a helicopter could carry too.

Even a CAS aircraft would be serious trouble for a helo with its powerful cannon though a modern helo with radar and cannon might be more of a problem... especially when a CAS aircraft does not have radar or powerful AAMs.

Mi-28N in Syria

Cyberspec wrote:Mi-28N in Syria

Anyone want to point out the fact that the cockpit lighting and instruments are dead still? (The altitude gauge is on zero, so we can assume it is getting no power. Either that or they are actually at sea level)
Either the video is superimposed over the screen with some touching up done to it, or the MFCD can play back old footage.

Interesting if the latter were true, but I am a bit dubious.

In a somewhat unrelated note, I don't know what version of the Mi-28 they have the the video, but the countermeasures panel has clearly changed.

They have video recording capability... perhaps that was a case of playing the video footage on the ground to some ground crew to show them what they just did... and the ground crew videoed it to show their friends...

That would be a hell of a lot safer than the gunner in the helo holding a camera videoing the attack while supposedly targeting those vehicles...

GarryB wrote:They have video recording capability... perhaps that was a case of playing the video footage on the ground to some ground crew to show them what they just did... and the ground crew videoed it to show their friends...

That would be a hell of a lot safer than the gunner in the helo holding a camera videoing the attack while supposedly targeting those vehicles...

Didn't Soviet fighters have gun cameras in WWII that were used to confirm if a pilot had actually killed an enemy plane?

GarryB wrote:They have video recording capability

That's all well and good. More than believable. Though, my point was that, interestingly, neither the altimeter, nor the other MFCD are displaying info. Usually, once the batteries have been switched on, some basic, analogue instruments fire up with it. And, depending on the aircraft, you would have all MFCDs fire up as well.

Notice, also, the clock (bottom right of the active MFCD) is still. Perhaps the first, most basic instrument you'd expect to get power. Kind of like the various accessories you get when you notch up the key in your car, just before ignition.

The other red flag I get is that the video chops and changes between a number of engagements. Does this mean that the gunner footage was retrieved from the aircraft data storage, edited on a computer, then shoved back into the helicopter for playback purposes.
$16 million VCR

never the less. I am just pointing this out because I noticed it in the background and enjoy the odd debunking here and there. not because I have any particular angle I am trying to push.

Firebird wrote:How would a state of the art Russian chopper like this fare against a good/very good fighter jet?

I know we're told that jets are far faster, more powerful etc, with a much greater range.
But we're also told how important missiles are today. How fully laden could this chopper (or a larger one) be in missiles vs a good jet?

Choppers could use natural and man made terrain to hide, defend itself or evade attacks.
But I'd imagine that in wide spaces and at altitude the chopper would be at a considerable disadvantage. However, at lower level... perhaps the chopper could use some clever techniques?

Has anyone seen and recent reports on this or have any views?

It wouldnt fare. MiG-21BiS can and will outperform any chopper out there, thats how it goes.

Cheetah wrote:

GarryB wrote:They have video recording capability

That's all well and good. More than believable. Though, my point was that, interestingly, neither the altimeter, nor the other MFCD are displaying info. Usually, once the batteries have been switched on, some basic, analogue instruments fire up with it. And, depending on the aircraft, you would have all MFCDs fire up as well.

Notice, also, the clock (bottom right of the active MFCD) is still. Perhaps the first, most basic instrument you'd expect to get power. Kind of like the various accessories you get when you notch up the key in your car, just before ignition.

The other red flag I get is that the video chops and changes between a number of engagements. Does this mean that the gunner footage was retrieved from the aircraft data storage, edited on a computer, then shoved back into the helicopter for playback purposes.
$16 million VCR

never the less. I am just pointing this out because I noticed it in the background and enjoy the odd debunking here and there. not because I have any particular angle I am trying to push.

Good pick up. You could be right

Didn't Soviet fighters have gun cameras in WWII that were used to confirm if a pilot had actually killed an enemy plane?

AFAIK yes they did, but they would be film cameras rather than digital cameras with digital memory and monitors for playback on the ground.

Though, my point was that, interestingly, neither the altimeter, nor the other MFCD are displaying info. Usually, once the batteries have been switched on, some basic, analogue instruments fire up with it. And, depending on the aircraft, you would have all MFCDs fire up as well.

You are assuming they have to boot up all systems just to activate one monitor and the memory of the recorded mission.

A modern attack helo like a Ka-52 probably has multiple computers that are linked via a network, but likely can operate separately too.

never the less. I am just pointing this out because I noticed it in the background and enjoy the odd debunking here and there. not because I have any particular angle I am trying to push.

The camera view we are looking at seems fixed and could have been edited... I am sure before being allowed to release this on the internet some people probably had to censor it first and they might have altered or changed some footage for whatever purpose.

If they really wanted to fake something they could easily have zoomed right in and just had the footage visible without a view of the cockpit...

GarryB wrote:

Didn't Soviet fighters have gun cameras in WWII that were used to confirm if a pilot had actually killed an enemy plane?

AFAIK yes they did, but they would be film cameras rather than digital cameras with digital memory and monitors for playback on the ground.

Well regardless they are probably there for the same purpose. To keep track of the aircrafts activity.

It would be for reviewing the mission and comparing with the pilots report.

Footage can be closely examined to determine if the attacks were effective and follow up recon can determine how effective the attacks were and whether follow up attacks are needed or not.

Such footage can be used for training as well as performance evaluation.

Russia’s Aerospace Force to get most advanced attack helicopters by yearend

Now a pre-production batch is underway

ROSTOV-ON-DON, March 6. /TASS/. Two most advanced Mil Mi-28NM serial-produced attack helicopters will arrive for Russian troops by the end of 2018, Russian Helicopters Group CEO Andrei Boginsky said on Tuesday.

"Now a pre-production batch is underway and the contract is due to be completed in November this year. Correspondingly, we are complying with the schedule. So far, two helicopters are stipulated in the contract," the rotorcraft manufacturer’s chief executive said, responding to the corresponding question from TASS.

Russia started developing the Mi-28NM helicopter in 2009. Its modernized version considerably differs from its prototype. The Mi-28NM will feature an innovative helmet-mounted target designation and display system as part of its onboard radar equipment.

The helicopter is furnished with the N025 all-round surveillance radar and a new electronic warfare system. The gunship is designed to search for and destroy low-speed air targets, tanks, armored and non-armored hardware and enemy manpower day and night and in any weather conditions.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/992921

The helicopter is furnished with the N025 all-round surveillance radar and a new electronic warfare system. The gunship is designed to search for and destroy low-speed air targets, tanks, armored and non-armored hardware and enemy manpower day and night and in any weather conditions.

Wow... if that is a requirement perhaps they will equip the 30mm cannon with airburst rounds with smart fuses... it would certainly be the most efficient way of dealing with air targets... such guns wont be accurate enough to hit the target with every round but the rounds would mostly pass closely by the target... without airburst ammo the rounds that miss even if they come very close to the target will just whip by and do no damage. With airburst round they will explode near the target... so very light targets like UAVs would be damaged by fragments even if every round does not hit them... most will damage them.

Obviously for armoured targets AP rounds would need to be used and direct hits achieved...

It also to get new optronics system similar to ka-52 as well.

17.4.18 image of the 1st flying Mi-28NM (Izd. 296) prototype OP-1 "701 Yellow"(maiden flight 12.10.16) at Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant in Lyubertsy District, Moscow Obl.
Features a modernised mast-mounted N025(M?) radar,a new set of VК-2500P-01/PS engines, sensors, controls & ECMS.



https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/986281142671339521

Upgraded Mil Mi-28NE ‘Night Hunter’ attack helicopter at the Army-2018 international military and technical forum



More:
http://tass.com/defense/1017999

I would say the focus is export to the Middle East with that large filter over the air intake for dust and sand.

It makes sense to stop sand and dust from getting into the engine than to try to deal with sand and dust already in there...

The odd thing is the quad missile tubes instead of the traditional 8 pack of Atakas...

According to another forum this are Krizanthema.