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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:20 am

    GarryB wrote:I suspect by Serial models I think they mean they think it is ready for service and combat the way it is now and that they don't foresee major upgrades or changes except bug fixes or improvements in the way it is made to make it cheaper or quicker to make.

    Ie it has passed tests and has been cleared for production... it will most likely get several changes and upgrades through its operational life but for now it is ready for active service use.

    Meaning of "first serial" is always the same for all late Sov/Rus plane.

    They are the proof-of-concept planes built during Industrialization Phase.
    It means that differently from prototypes, that are unique models build using provisional, ad hoc components and assembled manually at the bench at their respective Design Bureau plant, they are serial items assembled using serially made components but made on purpose of setting up and optimize the assembly line at the APO that have won the large scale production contract.

    They were usually followed by a pilot batch destined to cover the OCU (usually at Lipetsk) and the Experimental units, one will train the new pilots and the other would be used both to explore technical limits of the platform and to set up the tactics that would allow the full possibilities of the new platform.

    So, in this case i will say:v2 First Serial consigned, a pilot series of eight in production and an initial prevision of total serial production but still not a signed contract for it.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:29 am

    But they have a production contract for it... and it is not a brand new never been tried aircraft, it is an aircraft upgrade, so the basics should work fine, it is the new stuff that needed tests and development work to get it to work and to integrate it with other systems.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:24 am

    At the risk of appear pedantic all three of them are production contracts.
    Both the first serial, than the pilot than the large scale ones are all in the form of a direct acquisition of a certain amount of planes, usually 2 for first serial but variable for the other two.

    Probably they found easier to award such contracts in the form of a direct purchase of hardware (that in case of first serial is obviously a fictional one) i.e. something that allow them to refer to a standard reference form instead than have to discuss every time an ad hoc one about the development, testing, industrialization and initial production of each different model.

    So, in case of Mi-28NM we have a first serial of the usual two, a pilot one of eight and a first batch of large scale one of ?????

    In case of the Su-57, that's is a completely new one, first pilot batch was way larger (and actually we just didn't know if such pilot batch still stand on its own or has been absorbed into the 76 large production one).


    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:45 am

    Probably for naval ships is different, but in that case the first serial is the second ship of the serie, coming after the "pilot" ship.

    E.g. in the case of 22350 frigates,

    The first ship produced is the Admiral Gorshkov, and the first serial ship (second ship produced) is the Admiral Kasatonov.
    marcellogo
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    Post  marcellogo on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:03 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Probably for naval ships is different, but in that case the first serial is the second ship of the serie, coming after the "pilot" ship.

    E.g. in the case of 22350 frigates,

    The first ship produced is the Admiral Gorshkov, and the first serial ship (second ship produced) is the Admiral  Kasatonov.

    That's because in case of ships there is not usually the possibility to build prototypes, except for the smaller boats, so you build the first one as a sort of test bed while the second one would be the first build (hopefully) with standard, serially produced equipment of class.
    In any case the idea of sign contracts centered on item delivery instead than on the specific developmental or productive phase of a given project is present in all branches of russian military.
    Obviously a prototype or first serial plane could end up to cost 10,20 times more than a production one but this is just an artifice to cut down paperwork.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:40 am

    Well as shown by the Lada sub and the Ivan Gren... the first vessel is the prototype...
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    Post  marcellogo on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:14 am

    GarryB wrote:Well as shown by the Lada sub and the Ivan Gren... the first vessel is the prototype...
    Yes, in case of planes or land equipment there are prototypes that usually didn't were converted into operative planes but used as test beds for future versions.
    In case of ship this would result just too expensive, so for testing new individual components/weaponry they use older ships models bout to be retired instead.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:07 pm

    marcellogo wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Well as shown by the Lada sub and the Ivan Gren... the first vessel is the prototype...
    Yes, in case of planes or land equipment there are prototypes that usually didn't were converted into operative planes but used as test beds for future versions.
    In case of ship this would result just too expensive, so for testing new individual components/weaponry they use older ships models bout to be retired instead.
    Yes, and that was the problem for both the Admiral gorshkov and the first lada sub. They were the first really modern ship built since the fall of the Soviet Union, and full of new components and untested technologies.

    By untested I mean that most probably the single components, sensors and weapon systems were one by one tested on benchs or something similar, but not ona fully integrated platform and not on a ship..

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