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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

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    DerWolf
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  DerWolf on Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:22 pm

    Is this MI-28U the trainer version, or MI-28 NM ?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK the Mi28N is a modified aircraft of the 1980s.

    I hope the Mi-28M  has all the electronics and sensors and systems upgraded to current, but as I said a more aerodynamic ammo storage option for the main gun would have been nice IMHO.

    Even a change in calibre to the twin 23mm cannon of the new Hinds with smaller more compact ammo with lower recoil could have been a better option in my opinion... though information about how the gun is performing in Syria and Iraq would be useful to consider this option.


    Hi, Garry

    That's precisely my take on it as well. I just don't see the point in having a gun that so greatly reduces ammunition count, especially when one considers that the 30mm (like in the Apache) is only used against third world shepherds, pick up trucks and Toyotas. A 23mm would be able to achieve everything that the more powerful 30mm achieves while carrying far more ammo and producing far less recoil.

    It should be a tier system:

    The 23mm should be used against enemy personnel, APCs and last generation IFVs. I assume that the new laser guided 80mm rockets could better penetrate modern IFVs than even the 2a42 and the missiles can deal with the tanks.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  franco on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:35 pm

    DerWolf wrote:Is this MI-28U the trainer version, or MI-28 NM ?

    Mi-28U is the trainer version with combat capabilities (24 ordered). The only order for Mi-28NM so far was one for testing.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:58 am

    The Russian 30 x 165mm round is huge and rather powerful... but most ground targets are engaged with HE shells.

    The 23 x 115mm calibre has rather heavy projectiles for its calibre... the tradeoff is low muzzle velocity... but high muzzle velocity is rarely important when used against soft and medium ground targets.

    Against hard targets a 30mm calibre is little use anyway.

    The 23mm weapon is already used on new model Hinds and the ammo is as compact as HMG ammo so plenty could be carried.

    If you really wanted to you could develop a high velocity APFSDS round for it, but I think that might be good for a IFV mounted HMG in that calibre or an anti material rifle in that calibre it would be not very useful for a helo.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:56 am

    GarryB wrote:The Russian 30 x 165mm round is huge and rather powerful... but most ground targets are engaged with HE shells.

    The 23 x 115mm calibre has rather heavy projectiles for its calibre... the tradeoff is low muzzle velocity... but high muzzle velocity is rarely important when used against soft and medium ground targets.

    Against hard targets a 30mm calibre is little use anyway.

    The 23mm weapon is already used on new model Hinds and the ammo is as compact as HMG ammo so plenty could be carried.

    If you really wanted to you could develop a high velocity APFSDS round for it, but I think that might be good for a IFV mounted HMG in that calibre or an anti material rifle in that calibre it would be not very useful for a helo.

    Thanks for the answers, Garry.

    I really am fond of the 23mm and it does seem to offer real-world benefits that can't be ignored. The ZU-23-2 still has much better muzzle velocity [970mps] than the Apache's M230 chai gun [805mps] and so it's already starting from a very strong position with many other great qualities. How much RHA penetration (at 500 m) could we expect from a high velocity APFSDS 23mm round?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:52 am

    Careful... the ZU-23-2 and ZSU-23-4 use a different round.

    The ZU-23/ZSU-23-4 shell is a 23 x 152mm round with a long case with lots of propellent and a high muzzle velocity for shooting down aircraft.

    It was developed from the 23mm cannon used on the Il-2 Shturmovik of WWII fame.

    The 23 x 115mm calibre round uses the same projectile... which has a heavy HE projectile, but its much shorter case means much less propellent and lower muzzle velocity.

    The advantage is the short case allows a lot more ammo to be carried and the low muzzle velocity allows a much higher rate of fire without all the problems of higher velocity rounds.

    the 23 x 115mm round is used in air to air cannons as used on the MiG-21 and MiG-23... its high rate of fire and heavy projectile makes it very effective and the twin barrel guns that fire the round have a high rate of fire so fast moving targets are easier to hit with what is like a shotgun blast of shells.

    It is not a super high velocity laser weapon... more a shotgun... which is very effective against small fast targets.

    Note the late model Hinds use a twin barrel chin mounted 23mm gun in 23 x 115mm calibre where rate of fire is high and shell weight is good and recoil low.

    AFAIK there is no current APFSDS in 23 x 115mm, but the 14.5 x 114mm round has a similar sized case and with a larger calibre you can push more energy down the barrel.

    APFSDS rounds generally don't like muzzle brakes so a shift to 2A72 cannons instead of 2A42s might be required...

    Generally I would say a full calibre APHE for targets like light vehicles and HE shells for soft targets would be the best solution... hard targets like IFVs and tanks would be better engaged with unguided rockets with guidance kits or ATGMs.

    Russian command guided ATGMs are cheap enough to be used in enormous numbers without breaking the bank...


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:37 pm

    GarryB wrote:Careful... the ZU-23-2 and ZSU-23-4 use a different round.

    The ZU-23/ZSU-23-4 shell is a 23 x 152mm round with a long case with lots of propellent and a high muzzle velocity for shooting down aircraft.

    It was developed from the 23mm cannon used on the Il-2 Shturmovik of WWII fame.

    The 23 x 115mm calibre round uses the same projectile... which has a heavy HE projectile, but its much shorter case means much less propellent and lower muzzle velocity.

    The advantage is the short case allows a lot more ammo to be carried and the low muzzle velocity allows a much higher rate of fire without all the problems of higher velocity rounds.

    the 23 x 115mm round is used in air to air cannons as used on the MiG-21 and MiG-23... its high rate of fire and heavy projectile makes it very effective and the twin barrel guns that fire the round have a high rate of fire so fast moving targets are easier to hit with what is like a shotgun blast of shells.

    It is not a super high velocity laser weapon... more a shotgun... which is very effective against small fast targets.

    Note the late model Hinds use a twin barrel chin mounted 23mm gun in 23 x 115mm calibre where rate of fire is high and shell weight is good and recoil low.

    AFAIK there is no current APFSDS in 23 x 115mm, but the 14.5 x 114mm round has a similar sized case and with a larger calibre you can push more energy down the barrel.

    APFSDS rounds generally don't like muzzle brakes so a shift to 2A72 cannons instead of 2A42s might be required...

    Generally I would say a full calibre APHE for targets like light vehicles and HE shells for soft targets would be the best solution... hard targets like IFVs and tanks would be better engaged with unguided rockets with guidance kits or ATGMs.

    Russian command guided ATGMs are cheap enough to be used in enormous numbers without breaking the bank...


    Hi, Garry

    Thanks for this very informative post. The 23x115mm is a very good round and should be a very good alternative to the 30x165mm in Russia's attack helicopter fleet. It would more than double the on-board capacity. I noticed that helicopters like the Rooivalk and the AH-64 have to allow their autocannons to cool down for 10 minutes between 300 rounds, so could a GSH-6-23 type weapon (with a more sustainable rate of fire) truly remove this limitation?



    I just found this picture of the rotor mast radar on the Ka-52 and I really like that it provides 360 degrees in air coverage. The Ka-52 has the potential to be the best attack helicopter in the world and I really don't see what the Mi-28 can do that the Ka-52 can't, other than being cheaper and more easily maintained.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:19 pm

    Thanks for this very informative post. The 23x115mm is a very good round and should be a very good alternative to the 30x165mm in Russia's attack helicopter fleet. It would more than double the on-board capacity. I noticed that helicopters like the Rooivalk and the AH-64 have to allow their autocannons to cool down for 10 minutes between 300 rounds, so could a GSH-6-23 type weapon (with a more sustainable rate of fire) truly remove this limitation?

    The Soviets analysed the data they collected from real combat in WWII and realised that while high velocity rounds are very good for anti armour use, it was shell weight and HE power that actually made them effective against soft targets when high velocity rounds would punch easily through but actually do not that much damage.

    This led to the adoption of the 23 x 115mm round with low velocity and low recoil that could be fired from cannon at very high rates of fire without the vibration and problems with more powerful rounds.

    Even so there were serious problems with the GSh-23-6 gun from the MiG-31, which was intended for short range use against small targets like cruise missiles.


    One of the requirements of the twin barrel 23mm cannon on the new model Hinds was that it should be able to fire off the entire magazine of ammo without overheating.

    The aircraft cannon of the Soviet union and now Russia are electrically fired so changing their rate of fire should not be too hard.

    With a normal rate of 12,000 rpm the GSh-23-6 would need to be fired in short bursts to avoid overheating.... but then the only aircraft that carries it as an internal weapon is the MiG-31 which carries only about 250 rounds of ammo anyway.

    the twin barrel 23mm cannon fitted to the new model Hinds should be able to fire off their entire load of ammo without overheating... though they do fire at about 2,500 rpm.

    From memory I think the late model Hinds carry about 870 rounds of 23mm cannon shells as standard.

    Note the first Model D Hind with the four barrel 12.7mm gatling couldn't fire off its full load of ammo without overheating so they upgraded the gun and increased its weight from about 45kg to about 65kgs, which allowed it to fire continuously without overheating.


    I just found this picture of the rotor mast radar on the Ka-52 and I really like that it provides 360 degrees in air coverage. The Ka-52 has the potential to be the best attack helicopter in the world and I really don't see what the Mi-28 can do that the Ka-52 can't, other than being cheaper and more easily maintained.

    Being able to do the same job at less cost and with higher ready rates is not a bad thing.

    The Ka-50 was probably better armoured than the Mi-28A but I suspect the Ka-52 is less well armoured than the Mi-28N.

    The new model Mi-28NMs will have 360 degree radar... but to be honest they would be rather better protected by an Su-35 or MiG-35 flying top cover than just having their own radar...


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:12 am

    Garry B wrote:

    The Soviets analysed the data they collected from real combat in WWII and realised that while high velocity rounds are very good for anti armour use, it was shell weight and HE power that actually made them effective against soft targets when high velocity rounds would punch easily through but actually do not that much damage.

    This led to the adoption of the 23 x 115mm round with low velocity and low recoil that could be fired from cannon at very high rates of fire without the vibration and problems with more powerful rounds.

    Even so there were serious problems with the GSh-23-6 gun from the MiG-31, which was intended for short range use against small targets like cruise missiles.


    One of the requirements of the twin barrel 23mm cannon on the new model Hinds was that it should be able to fire off the entire magazine of ammo without overheating.

    The aircraft cannon of the Soviet union and now Russia are electrically fired so changing their rate of fire should not be too hard.

    With a normal rate of 12,000 rpm the GSh-23-6 would need to be fired in short bursts to avoid overheating.... but then the only aircraft that carries it as an internal weapon is the MiG-31 which carries only about 250 rounds of ammo anyway.

    the twin barrel 23mm cannon fitted to the new model Hinds should be able to fire off their entire load of ammo without overheating... though they do fire at about 2,500 rpm.

    From memory I think the late model Hinds carry about 870 rounds of 23mm cannon shells as standard.

    Note the first Model D Hind with the four barrel 12.7mm gatling couldn't fire off its full load of ammo without overheating so they upgraded the gun and increased its weight from about 45kg to about 65kgs, which allowed it to fire continuously without overheating.


    Hi, Garry

    I really do love the fact that the Russians approach these matters methodically and make decisions on considered evidence. I recently read up on the GSH-6-23 and the troubles that it faced, but the GSH-23 seems like an incredible fit for attack helicopters especially if the rate of fire can be reduced to something more reasonable -- around 300-550 rds/min. The GSH-23 would be ideal considering that it doesn't overheat after over 800 rounds -- which is a lot better than the overheating that the M230 experiences after just 300 rounds.


    Garry B wrote:
    Being able to do the same job at less cost and with higher ready rates is not a bad thing.

    The Ka-50 was probably better armoured than the Mi-28A but I suspect the Ka-52 is less well armoured than the Mi-28N.

    The new model Mi-28NMs will have 360 degree radar... but to be honest they would be rather better protected by an Su-35 or MiG-35 flying top cover than just having their own radar...

    The Mi-28 is a good attack helicopter and is cheaper and less maintenance heavy due to its less radical design and so it wins point for that, but the Ka-52 is a truly ideal attack helicopter with unique capabilities. There is only one other helicopter that I like as much -- the ever troubled Rooivalk but I found some claims about it (when compared to the Mi-28 and the Ka-52) a little strange.


    The latter is best illustrated by its 5,545m "out-of-ground effect" hover ceiling (the height at which it can hover without the cushion of air caused by rotor downwash). The next best is the US Apache (3,866m), followed by the Russian Mi-28 and Ka-52 (3,600m); the Franco-German Tiger (3,200m) and the Chinese WZ-10 (2,000m). The Rooivalk also has the highest cruise speed, the best rate of climb and the best range/weapons load performance, and shares with the Tiger the best power to weight ratio, all factors critical in operations and combat.

    Source: http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/2016/01/21/developing-the-rooivalk-mk2-would-tick-many-vital-boxes

    I find it terribly strange that the Rooivalk can apparently hover 5, 545m in out of ground effect even though it's more than half a ton heavier than the Apache and has less powerful engines even though the article claims that it has the best power to weight ratio. Question: could the Ka-52 reach 5, 545m if it was lighter? There are materials now that are stronger and lighter than steel but also crucially cheaper so the Ka-52 can be made lighter - perhaps as light as the Rooivalk but far more powerful. These recent breakthroughs have Soviet origins. Source: http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/news/a13919/new-steel-alloy-titanium/

    There are also new alloys that are as light as aluminum but as strong as titanium. Source: https://gadgtecs.com/2016/01/02/new-alloy-strong-titanium-light-aluminum/


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:04 am

    I quite like the South African Helo, but those claims are a little weird.

    First of all hover out of ground effect is not really of great importance... if you are flying at 5km altitude then a MiG-29 from 60km away will see you and shoot you down and there is very little you could do in return from that altitude.

    From what I can tell the Rooivalk has a top speed of about 309km/h... both the Hokum and Havoc are faster and rather better armed with 30mm cannon and the new Hermes missiles offering 20km range.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:I quite like the South African Helo, but those claims are a little weird.

    First of all hover out of ground effect is not really of great importance... if you are flying at 5km altitude then a MiG-29 from 60km away will see you and shoot you down and there is very little you could do in return from that altitude.

    From what I can tell the Rooivalk has a top speed of about 309km/h... both the Hokum and Havoc are faster and rather better armed with 30mm cannon and the new Hermes missiles offering 20km range.

    I also found some of the claims hard to believe. The claim that it has the best power to weight ratio sounds like absolute bollocks to me. Being able to perform over 5km at altitude is quite a good ability to have in mountainous areas, and since a military would only deploy helicopters after air superiority has been gained and established, enemy jets shouldn't really be a factor. Please correct me if I'm wrong; I've read that coaxial rotors increase lift and so I assume that the ka-52 would be able to have an "out-of-ground effect hover ceiling exceeding that of the Rooivalk if its weight was reduced by two [2] tons (within the weight range of the Rooivalk) using new materials that are also very cheap. The aforementioned light (and crucially also cheap) materials should allow Kamov to drastically reduce the weight of the Ka-52 while maintaining its already excellent protection and increasing other performance to levels considerably beyond that of the Rooivalk or any other contemporary attack helicopter in every performance criteria.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  kopyo-21 on Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:44 pm



    I just found this picture of the rotor mast radar on the Ka-52 and I really like that it provides 360 degrees in air coverage.  The Ka-52 has the potential to be the best attack helicopter in the world and I really don't see what the Mi-28 can do that the Ka-52 can't, other than being cheaper and more easily maintained.

    As I know, they cancel the mast mounted radar on Ka-52 due to unresolved vibration problem. So Ka-52 now has only nosed Arbalet radar while Mi-28NM has mast mounted N025 radar.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:45 pm



    Began flight tests of the upgraded "Night Hunter"

    As part of the modernization of the helicopter got a new sighting and flight-navigation system, equipped with computing facilities, and a new cockpit



    Began flight tests of the upgraded "Night Hunter"
    As part of the modernization of the helicopter got a new sighting and flight-navigation system, equipped with computing facilities, and a new cockpit
    September 9, 2016, 7:06

    Upgraded helicopter "Night Hunter" started the flight-test program. On Friday TASS reported the press service of the holding company "Russian Helicopters".

    "On the flight test complex of the Moscow Helicopter Plant Mil began flight testing a prototype of the modernized version of the combat helicopter Mi-28 product is" 296 ", - said in a statement.

    As part of the modernization of the helicopter got a new sighting and flight-navigation system, equipped with computing facilities. In addition, the modernization undergone cabin crew commander and pilot-operator will now receive information about the environment and the work of all vehicle systems to a greater extent and in a more accessible form.

    "When you create a helicopter Mi-28 product is" 296 "has been the experience of the development of training and combat Mi-28UB: in the front cabin of the helicopter Mi-28, a product" 296 "is set to the second set of controls The helicopter is equipped with advanced nadvtulochnoy radar has enhanced capabilities. the use of precision weapons, including homing missiles, "- noted in the holding.

    The armament of the modernized Mi-28N includes guided and unguided rocket armament, bomb weapons, as well as a movable gun mount with a gun caliber 30 mm. The press service also stressed that the cabin crew reliable armored, that provides protection against armor-piercing bullets and projectiles caliber 20 mm.

    Helicopter rotor blades are made of composite materials. As noted in the holding, it allows you to safely complete the flight when hit by 20-30 mm caliber ammunition, and fuel system design eliminates explosion or ignition of fuel.

    Earlier, Deputy Director Alexander geneneralnogo Shcherbinin Holding said that the tests of the modernized Mi-28N will be completed in 2017.

    https://defence.ru/military_aviation/nachalis-letnie-ispitaniya-modernizirovannogo-nochnogo-okhotnika/

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:39 am


    kopyo-21 wrote:
    As I know, they cancel the mast mounted radar on Ka-52 due to unresolved vibration problem. So Ka-52 now has only nosed Arbalet radar while Mi-28NM has mast mounted N025 radar.

    Yeah I just read up on that and it does seem that Kamov made the right call by placing RWR sensors, 4 LWR sensors and UV MAWS sensors onto the Ka-52 in lieu of a mast mounted radar. This arrangement apparently produces better results and isn't hampered by vibration problems.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:56 am

    The Ka-50 has an out of ground effect hovering of 4000m - second only to the Rooivalk and since the Ka-52 is heavier, weight does seem to be a deciding factor because the Ka-52 has an out of ground effect hovering of 3600m. If the new, light and cheap aforementioned materials were used, the weight of the Ka-52 could result in a platform with an out of ground effect hovering closer to 6000m. The ka-52 is the best attack helicopter in the world but there are still grounds for improvement.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:08 am


    Garry

    I hope I'm not pestering you with my flurry of questions but I find you incredibly well informed. I know that the Mi-28 currently uses the 2a42 but if it was to use the 23×115 round instead with AFPDS, what kinds of speeds could we reasonably expect?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:36 am

    It is difficult to say for sure.

    First I would mention that I don't actually know of any APFSDS rounds for the 23 x 115mm round.

    The 23 x 115mm round was developed specifically for low velocity low recoil high rate of fire weapons... the purpose was to spray a dense pattern of heavy shells rapidly... high velocity high energy rounds meant recoil and short flight time to target, but did not improve lethality against air targets.

    The 23 x 115mm round was developed specifically for aircraft use against enemy aircraft so the combination of heavy HE shell to maximise the effect of an impact along with a very high rate of fire in a small compact weapon were considered ideal.

    Aircraft generally don't fire APFSDS rounds as the Sabot tends to damage engines when ingested in the air intakes.

    For most modern helos the value of an armour piercing cannon is not enormous... there wont be an A-10 equivalent in rotary wing aircraft simply because a missile will do the job far easier and more reliably and at much greater range than any gun... range means keeping the helo safe.


    A modern helo faces a range of targets that it has to be able to deal with but the average Havoc loadout generally will include 16 ATAKA missiles and 40 x 80mm unguided rockets plus 300 odd cannon shells.

    The cannon is a good way to deal with quick soft targets, but ATAKA missiles are actually rather cheap and plentiful.

    Ugroza will make unguided rockets accurate enough to be used to 4km or so and will be relatively cheap too.

    In terms of hovering in out of ground effect... helos are not the best option in mountains... the wind can be more dangerous than enemy fire.

    Over flat terrain helos wont fly at high altitudes... the whole point of a helo is to fly low to see the target and to avoid longer range ground fire.

    Regarding performance of 23 x 115mm ammo.. if you look at US SLAP ammo for their 12.7 x 99mm ammo... you probably get an idea... the 14.5 x 114mm HMG round the Russians use has twice the muzzle energy and so the 23 x 115mm is a larger calibre so more energy can be pushed down the barrel.

    In the 1980s I would say no because having APFSDS in 23 x 115mm would be of a totally different trajectory to any other ammo the weapon might fire as the standard HE round is heavy and only leaves short barrels at about 700m/s... whereas a sabot round will be small light penetrator dart and propellant and would likely have a muzzle velocity in the 1,400m/s to 1,500m/s velocity range.

    Light and fast and very low drag vs large and slow and high drag means the aim point with one round and the aim point for the other would be very different... ie looking down the iron sights firing a mixed belt of these two rounds means one round hitting target and the other zipping miles over head or dropping well short.

    In a dual feed weapon like the 2A42 however you can swap aim points when changing ammo but only today with modern electronic sights with ballistic computers you could make a very effective anti material rifle in 23 x 115mm with powerful low velocity HE shells and effective APFSDS rounds.

    I would estimate 60-80mm armour defeat out to 1,200m or so... but that is just a guess.

    In the 1990s the west experimented with a 15mm calibre weapon based on the 14.5mm Soviet round and it managed a 40mm armour defeat capability at 1km range.

    Nobody bought it because it was not standard ammo, but the Russians already have the 23 x 115mm round in service. It would not take much to develop an anti material heavy rifle able to use the 23 x 115mm calibre as well as their 14.5 x 114mm round and of course their 30mm grenades and perhaps their new 40mm grenades. (man portable rifles are probably too small and light for their new 57mm grenade launchers...)


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:44 am

    GarryB wrote:It is difficult to say for sure.

    First I would mention that I don't actually know of any APFSDS rounds for the 23 x 115mm round.

    The 23 x 115mm round was developed specifically for low velocity low recoil high rate of fire weapons... the purpose was to spray a dense pattern of heavy shells rapidly... high velocity high energy rounds meant recoil and short flight time to target, but did not improve lethality against air targets.

    The 23 x 115mm round was developed specifically for aircraft use against enemy aircraft so the combination of heavy HE shell to maximise the effect of an impact along with a very high rate of fire in a small compact weapon were considered ideal.

    Aircraft generally don't fire APFSDS rounds as the Sabot tends to damage engines when ingested in the air intakes.

    For most modern helos the value of an armour piercing cannon is not enormous... there wont be an A-10 equivalent in rotary wing aircraft simply because a missile will do the job far easier and more reliably and at much greater range than any gun... range means keeping the helo safe.


    A modern helo faces a range of targets that it has to be able to deal with but the average Havoc loadout generally will include 16 ATAKA missiles and 40 x 80mm unguided rockets plus 300 odd cannon shells.

    The cannon is a good way to deal with quick soft targets, but ATAKA missiles are actually rather cheap and plentiful.

    Ugroza will make unguided rockets accurate enough to be used to 4km or so and will be relatively cheap too.

    In terms of hovering in out of ground effect... helos are not the best option in mountains... the wind can be more dangerous than enemy fire.

    Over flat terrain helos wont fly at high altitudes... the whole point of a helo is to fly low to see the target and to avoid longer range ground fire.

    Regarding performance of 23 x 115mm ammo.. if you look at US SLAP ammo for their 12.7 x 99mm ammo... you probably get an idea... the 14.5 x 114mm HMG round the Russians use has twice the muzzle energy and so the 23 x 115mm is a larger calibre so more energy can be pushed down the barrel.

    In the 1980s I would say no because having APFSDS in 23 x 115mm would be of a totally different trajectory to any other ammo the weapon might fire as the standard HE round is heavy and only leaves short barrels at about 700m/s... whereas a sabot round will be small light penetrator dart and propellant and would likely have a muzzle velocity in the 1,400m/s to 1,500m/s velocity range.

    Light and fast and very low drag vs large and slow and high drag means the aim point with one round and the aim point for the other would be very different... ie looking down the iron sights firing a mixed belt of these two rounds means one round hitting target and the other zipping miles over head or dropping well short.

    In a dual feed weapon like the 2A42 however you can swap aim points when changing ammo but only today with modern electronic sights with ballistic computers you could make a very effective anti material rifle in 23 x 115mm with powerful low velocity HE shells and effective APFSDS rounds.

    I would estimate 60-80mm armour defeat out to 1,200m or so... but that is just a guess.

    In the 1990s the west experimented with a 15mm calibre weapon based on the 14.5mm Soviet round and it managed a 40mm armour defeat capability at 1km range.

    Nobody bought it because it was not standard ammo, but the Russians already have the 23 x 115mm round in service.  It would not take much to develop an anti material heavy rifle able to use the 23 x 115mm calibre as well as their 14.5 x 114mm round and of course their 30mm grenades and perhaps their new 40mm grenades. (man portable rifles are probably too small and light for their new 57mm grenade launchers...)

    Garry

    Thank you so much, mate. This certainly clears up a lot of things for me. You're right...It does make more sense to use rockets against armor and the new laser guided rockets strengthen the case for this. How much penetration does the current standard 23x115 HE round achieve at 2km? I understand that the 2a42 can reach out to 4km (double that of the M230) so is this why the 23x115 was replaced for certain platforms in the Russian military?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 11, 2016 11:52 am

    How much penetration does the current standard 23x115 HE round achieve at 2km?

    Zero.


    HE shells are for soft targets, not armoured targets.

    Against troops out in the field a HE round is vastly more effective than Armour piercing rounds because the exploding shell scatters shrapnel all over the place so even a near miss can be lethal. With AP rounds you need to actually hit the target to damage it. A HE round just needs to hit the ground near by.

    I understand that the 2a42 can reach out to 4km (double that of the M230) so is this why the 23x115 was replaced for certain platforms in the Russian military?

    AFAIK the 23 x 115mm round has only ever been used in fighter aircraft for use against enemy fighter aircraft and as a defensive round for transport aircraft.

    The first interceptors like the MiG-15 and MiG-17 had 37mm cannon and 23mm high velocity cannon... but when they went to the MiG-21 they changed to low velocity 23mm cannon rounds.

    AFAIK the only Soviet or Russian army platform that uses the 23 x 115mm calibre is the late model Hinds in a chin turret.

    The ZU-23 and ZSU-23-4 both use the much more powerful 23 x 152mm shell for shooting at aircraft from the ground... recoil and ammo size is less of an issue.

    The 30 x 165mm ammo replaced the 23 x 152mm ammo in army use when the Tunguska replaced the Shilka... and that was for extra effective range.

    For a helo the cannon is pretty much close range self defence for which I would expect the 23 x 115mm round is perfectly suited... not too big, not too powerful in terms of recoil, high rate of fire if needed, heavy HE shell for its calibre.



    As you can see above there is a difference between 23x115mm and 30x165mm ammo... Smile


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    How much penetration does the current standard 23x115 HE round achieve at 2km?

    Zero.


    HE shells are for soft targets, not armoured targets.

    Against troops out in the field a HE round is vastly more effective than Armour piercing rounds because the exploding shell scatters shrapnel all over the place so even a near miss can be lethal. With AP rounds you need to actually hit the target to damage it. A HE round just needs to hit the ground near by.

    I understand that the 2a42 can reach out to 4km (double that of the M230) so is this why the 23x115 was replaced for certain platforms in the Russian military?

    AFAIK the 23 x 115mm round has only ever been used in fighter aircraft for use against enemy fighter aircraft and as a defensive round for transport aircraft.

    The first interceptors like the MiG-15 and MiG-17 had 37mm cannon and 23mm high velocity cannon... but when they went to the MiG-21 they changed to low velocity 23mm cannon rounds.

    AFAIK the only Soviet or Russian army platform that uses the 23 x 115mm calibre is the late model Hinds in a chin turret.

    The ZU-23 and ZSU-23-4 both use the much more powerful 23 x 152mm shell for shooting at aircraft from the ground... recoil and ammo size is less of an issue.

    The 30 x 165mm ammo replaced the 23 x 152mm ammo in army use when the Tunguska replaced the Shilka... and that was for extra effective range.

    For a helo the cannon is pretty much close range self defence for which I would expect the 23 x 115mm round is perfectly suited... not too big, not too powerful in terms of recoil, high rate of fire if needed, heavy HE shell for its calibre.



    As you can see above there is a difference between 23x115mm and 30x165mm ammo... Smile

    Garry

    Sorry, mate I meant a High-Explosive Incendiary round. What kind of penetration could we get out of a High-Explosive Incendiary 23x115 round? The M789 HEDP from the M230 can apparently penetrate 25mm of RHA at 500m, so what can a comparable 23X115 round achieve? The M230 (a "light 30") is much weaker than all other 30mm and so I doubt that it can penetrate more. The 25mm penetrates more so I assume that the 23x115 can penetrate at least as much as the M230.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:21 pm

    Cyrus the great wrote:

    Garry

    Sorry, mate I meant a High-Explosive Incendiary round. What kind of penetration could we get out of a High-Explosive Incendiary 23x115 round? The M789 HEDP from the M230 can apparently penetrate 25mm of RHA at 500m, so what can a comparable 23X115 round achieve? The M230 (a "light 30") is much weaker than all other 30mm and so I doubt that it can penetrate more. The 25mm penetrates more so I assume that the 23x115 can penetrate at least as much as the M230.

    23x115mm do only use HE/HEFI and Target practice rounds for GSh-23L on Hinds. That means they do not have any number figures of what they can penetrate because of their purpose and design. The contact fuze HE rounds have  two fuzes -  a) contact fuze that detonates with a small delay to have the capability to penetrate the surface and detonate inside rather than on the surface to enhance the damage. The second b) fuze is a safety contact fuze that initiates a detonation on contact when the surface is to hard for the HE shell and the delayed contact fuze is to slow to initiate the detonation. This safety contact fuze will detonate the round before it squashes itself and the shell open from the kinetic energy against the surface to prevent a dud.

    The M789 is an HEDP (HEAT) round that is why it has such penetration and the penetration rather goes up with distance due to the rotating and negative spinning (centrifugal effect) on the copper liner of the shaped charge. The penetration performance is horrible at close range and goes up with every hundred meters to the ~25mm.

    Exactly by that two contact fuzes or measurements it is hard to say what penetration it can have, for sure is that it will penetrate any armored BTR-60 up to BTR-80 or any MRAP and detonate inside. It won't have any chances of penetrating tanks or any better armored IFV in head on engagement. That round was never designed for such purpose. There are also no APFSDS 23 nor 30mm rounds in service, few designd like ZUBR-9/10 and new one now ZUBR-11 but non adopted so far. The current one is ZUBR-8 with 45mm penetration at 100m and 28mm at 1km, 22mm at 2km.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:37 am

    Sorry, mate I meant a High-Explosive Incendiary round. What kind of penetration could we get out of a High-Explosive Incendiary 23x115 round?

    HEI is High explosive Incendiary... in other words it is a HE with a material in it to make it burn.

    It is used to start fires in combustible material. Or set fire to ammo and fuel.

    HE is not actually that good at starting fires as its high velocity blast wave tends to put small fires out rather than encourage them.

    The M789 HEDP from the M230 can apparently penetrate 25mm of RHA at 500m, so what can a comparable 23X115 round achieve?

    HEDP is High Explosive Dual Purpose... it contains a shaped charge to penetrate armour and is designed to fragment like a HE shell, so it can kill exposed troops and penetrate light armour.

    There is no equivalent 23mm round AFAIK.

    The M230 (a "light 30") is much weaker than all other 30mm and so I doubt that it can penetrate more.

    The M230 is like the 23 x 115mm round... a heavy projectile with a light short case to give relatively low muzzle velocity and therefore low recoil.

    The 25mm penetrates more so I assume that the 23x115 can penetrate at least as much as the M230.

    Shaped charges derive their penetration from their diameter so a larger calibre round all other things being equal should be better at penetrating than a smaller calibre.

    The effect under armour of a 30mm HEDP cannon shell would be debatable, and I rather doubt developing a comparable 23mm version would be worth while.

    Whether you are shooting enemy aircraft or soft ground targets a good HE round is much more use than an anti armour cannon shell.

    If you spot an armoured vehicle, first of all you don't want to be within 2km because even a HMG is a threat to you and armoured vehicles often carry such weapons... even light unarmoured civilian vehicles have them.

    An 80mm rocket with a laser homing head is the best way to deal with light armoured vehicles and ATAKA and Krisantema for heavier vehicles and bunkers.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Cyrus the great on Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:35 pm



    I can finally thank you guys (Garry and Werewolf) for so kindly taking time to answer my questions and educating me.


    Garry B wrote:


    Shaped charges derive their penetration from their diameter so a larger calibre round all other things being equal should be better at penetrating than a smaller calibre.


    This makes sense but it also brings me to another question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:11 am

    This makes sense but it also brings me to another question: How does the Vikhr missile penetrate more armour than the Hellfire when it has a warhead with a smaller diameter? Now, as you know the Vikhr has a diameter of 130mm whereas the Hellfire has a diameter of 178mm.

    Note I said all things being equal a larger calibre will penetrate more than a smaller calibre.

    There are a lot of other variables... including but not only... the metal used in the shaped charge cone, the amount of explosive used, and of course whether tandem charges are used or not.

    Remember the most powerful HEAT 125mm tank gun round has a small precursor charge to defeat ERA and then two full calibre HEAT warheads designed to fire in order.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  kopyo-21 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:07 am

    Hi Garry,

    I wonder why Mil did not re-arrange the 2A42 gun position on Mi-28 by moving it back to the center of gravity like Kamov did with the same gun on Ka-50/52 to reduce the firing vibration. Of course the gun barrel traveling would be limited between 2 landing gear but still much wider than Ka-50/52's.

    Werewolf wrote:The current one is ZUBR-8 with 45mm penetration at 100m and 28mm at 1km, 22mm at 2km.

    The ZUBR-8 is for Naval CISW gun and much shorter than other rounds so they have to belted it with other ones for 2A42 or 2A72 firing. In that case I don't know how the gun's FCS system solve the big different muzzle velocity between them to calculate the ballistic.


    Last edited by kopyo-21 on Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total

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