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    Mi-28N Havoc: News

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    George1
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:36 pm

    Russian Ministry of Defense has officially put Mi-28N Night Hunter helicopter into service
    Russian Aviaton » Tuesday December 31, 2013 16:26 MSK

    The Mi-28N Night Hunter attack helicopter manufactured by Russian Helicopters Holding Company (subsidiary of Oboronprom Corporation, which is a part of Russian Technologies State Corporation) has been officially put into service by Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD). The corresponding order was signed by the Minister of Defense Sergei Shoygu on November 22nd 2013, press-service of Russian Helicopters reports.

    “Prior to its official entry into service, the Mi-28N Night Hunter helicopter has been operated by the Russian air forces for several years. The MoD tested it under various conditions and created a dedicated training and support base. This work was being carried out in cooperation with specialists of the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant, which developed the Mi-28N Night Hunter, and the Rosvertol aviation plant (the enterprise has been manufacturing serial Mi-28N helicopters since 2005). To date Russian Helicopters has delivered a few score of Mi-28N Night Hunter helicopters to the MoD”, - said in the statement.

    “The official entry into service of Mi-28N testifies to the fact that the Night Hunter meets the requirements for a combat helicopter, it has passed all the necessary tests, and it is ready for operation as a part of the Russian air forces’ fleet”, - said Alexander Mikheev, CEO of Russian Helicopters. “The holding’s enterprises are not only successfully fulfilling the state defense order, but they are also working on upgrading the combat helicopters, which serve to strengthen our country’s defense potential”.

    “The Mi-28N Night Hunter meets all the existing international combat helicopter requirements, and it is attractive for potential customers. The export model has the designation of Mi-28NE Night Hunter”, - the press-service explained.

    Mi-28N Night Hunter helicopters demonstrate superior aircraft performance, allowing them to perform aerobatic maneuvers. The legendary Berkuti helicopter aerobatic team put Mi-28N Night Hunter into service in 2012.

    “Russian Helicopters is constantly working on improving the aircraft performance of Mi-28N Night Hunter helicopter. A special Mi-28N with dual controls was developed for pilot training. The vehicle performed its maiden flight on August 9th 2013”, - the press-service noted.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:18 pm

    I was always impressed by Mil's armored layouts for their helicopters, especially the cockpit armor for the Mi-28 which is quite impressive:





    ...While in stark contrast The Apache's cockpit armor is not anywhere as stellar:

    "...King and Tomblin's Apache was hit by a burst of AK-47 fire which penetrated the cockpit and struck the former in the throat as he was calling out fires..."

    http://books.google.com/books?id=DHmkC_HOyCYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=AH-64+Apache+Units+of+Operations+Enduring+Freedom+and+Iraqi+Freedom&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0gvHUoPzCuHN2AX38YCgBA&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=AH-64%20Apache%20Units%20of%20Operations%20Enduring%20Freedom%20and%20Iraqi%20Freedom&f=false

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:43 pm

    Apache cockpit penetrated by AK fire? Really?
    Good gosh that's weak

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:15 pm

    Most of the transparency is not armored at all, so no surprise.

    The structure below is meant to absorb somewhat large rounds though.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:34 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Apache cockpit penetrated by AK fire? Really?
    Good gosh that's weak

    I was surprised too! You'd think that the Pentagon would at least prioritize 7.62 x 39 mm resistant bullet proof glass in America's main attack helicopter, apparently that never crossed their minds...or maybe they have improved the Apache's cockpit armor, but you have to admit that was a glaring oversight/error in the Apache's initial design. I wonder if they haven't improved the cockpit armor why would the Indians choose an Apache over the Ka-52 with it's ejection seat technology if that's the case?

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:08 am

    I don't understand why you are suprised.
    It should be no news to you guys that i am totally insane when it comes to helicopters and especially Attack helicopters.
    I  researched quite a few things about attack helicopters and for example the AH-64,AH-1, CSH-2 Rooivalk and Tiger EC665 all use the same cockpit glass made by the company "PPG Aerospace".

    http://www.ppg.com/coatings/aerospace/transparencies/militaryaviation/documents/boeing_apache_ah-64_final.pdf

    This file shows what kind of "bulletproof" glass the Apache exactly uses.
    It says, it uses mainly acrylic "plastic" sheets and "polycarbonate" which is nothing else but a reinforced plastic.

    The company PPG Aerospace itself differ their products in "Transparency Armor" which only sell bullet proof glass for ground vehicles such as Hummvees.
    Go on www.ppg.com and "Transparencies" and than go on "Military Aviation" and "Military Aviation Programm" all aircrafts are listed use only Non bullet proof glasses.

    It is a ballistic shield to improve performance and safety for pilots explecit against shockwaves from MANPADS and low protection against impacts of flying around parts, but not direct impact from a projectile nor fragmentations of any kind of Warheads.

    Also the current bulletproof glasses in military regardless of what kind of vehicle are all made of sheets of real glass and plastic foils/sheets and weight alot, for those of you who don't know, glass that isn't flat can't be bulletproof like side windows on Mi-24 which are just reinforced acryl glass same as AH-1 and AH-64 side and top windshields, the Apaches Flat windshields infront of each Pilot have a few more sheets thinner and are flat to improve the transparency and visibility for the pilots, they also have higher crashworthiness and more resistant to scratches to endure a high optical quality.

    The only thing on the Apache (or better to say inside of it) that is bulletproof is the single bulletproof sheet that is located exactly behind the WSO's head that seperates both cockpits, it is believed to withstand 12.7mm ammunition, but from the look of it from various videos and pictures it should only sustain fire of 7.62mm. I can be wrong about this but what i could see it looks like about 1.5cm thick, while 12.7mm bulletproof glass of Mi-28 is about 45mm thick.

    1st Lt. King survived the single AK-47 round that hit his left side cockpit glass and hit his throat.

    And the video you have posted was translated by me.  Very Happy


    PS: What i almost forgot to add.

    Western countries have a very odd design of ballistic protection for their Pilots.
    For example everyone knows how russians do it, they entirely bulletproof the cockpit from almost all angles, while western designes such as Apache or even worse the Tiger use only seperated ballistic protective armor sheets inside the hull centering around the pilot itself, instead of making the entire fuselage around the cockpit section bullet proof like russians do.

    If you don't know what i mean look on this side picture from this side about AH-64 Apaches.



    http://voodoo-world.cz/ah64/info.html

    Of course the Aviation bay beneath the crew is protected by itself, but for example exact beneath the pilot is unprotected the Ammunition storage of the M230 cannon or the "robby tank" the 3rd fuel tank that can be installed to improve endurance but cuts of the ammunition from 1200 to 300 rounds of 30x113mm B.

    The Tiger is one of the worst with even more laughable protection design. For instance, the german EC665 Tiger PAH-2 was reported (without proof) that the Bundeswehr (Bundesamt für Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung) which means "Federal Office of Defence Technology and Procurement" had purchased Tigers without the standardized armor but ordered a "lite" version. First this report sounded totally stupid but their was afterwards signs that it maybe true. Since they purchased ASGARD-F upgrade package which implemented armored steel sheets which were mounted to the pilots site of the fuselage.



    And now comes the weirdest point of the ballistical protection of western helicopters, since the armor is scathered around the helicopter the crashworthy seats of the pilots are armored from sides to compansate the rather thin armor. It maybe not a big issue for Apache sins it has a 2 layered cockpit with a titanium alloy cockpit capsule or also called "bathtub" and than the outer skin that also gives the bird its more aerodynamic shape made of alluminium alloy same as Mi-28/24/Ka50/52, but the rest of western helicopters have a rather thin ballistical protection.
    Just watch for example the A-129 which is so thin but were also advertised to be capable to withstand 23mm rounds, which i personally would not be so sure.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 04, 2014 8:29 am

    Very interesting writeup Werewolf.  thumbsup 

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:30 am

    Hehehehe... reminds me of discussions about how the Apache is better than the Havoc because it has bigger windows.

    I used to explain the smaller windows of the Havoc were better because they were armoured and closer to the crew so you could still see out them rather well.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Zivo on Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:07 am

    A picture is worth a thousand words...


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:40 pm

    I aggree, a picture is worth thousand words.

    You all know that every current existing Attack Helicopter is advertised to survive or is capable to sustain single hits of 23mm HE,HEF,HEFI/HEI rounds.

    Ok lets see the cockpit sections of all those helicopters and than decide which of this should sustain more.

    A-129 and just take a look at the thickness of the cockpit armor section, it is scary thin compared to others.



    Also a T-129P1 prototype crashed, or at least it supposed to be a Turkish prototype.
    From such weak structural space beneath the pilots they will get higher G's to sustain then on other helicopters.

    Just watch the space beneath the WSO compare this to other AH's.



    Aftermath of crash



    EC 665 Tigre

    You can see a mechanic on the right side for size comperision to a human


    CSH-2 which is believed to have same protection as AH-1Z,AH-64 and WZ-10.






    ah-1Z Viper
    The viper is little bit special since the hull was little bit widened to fit more redundant and more modern avionics in it which also the protection had its benefits, the empty weight increased from about 3tones of all previous models to 5.5t which adds for the armor when not counting the weight of new equipment the structural grow and newer rotor head system and IR supprressors about 20-30% of this or should be benefitial to to crew protection, mainly the protection from beneath and sides for the mid section.



    WZ-10, which is about the figure of protection level near AH-1Z and AH-64.

    The side windows are definetley not bulletproof, but the front flat windshield could be, even tho i couldn't find perfect pictures of a closeup from the right angle to see its thickness.



    AH-64



    The structural skelette of AH-64 which resambles the titanium alloy inner protection line, the titanium plates are only surrounding the pilots seperatley.
    The Apache and the crew survivability benefits from the avionic bay that is later built around the cockpit section along with the weapon feeding system, giving it a little bit more armor.

    And for my astouning the Apache has one of the highest if not the highest crash worthyness when considering how the M230 chaingun is mounted, right beneath the WSO, even after very hard crashes were pilots almost died or died, the canon wasn't smashed through the floor into the cockpit.

    I guess i don't need to post farther pictures of Mi-28/24 and Ka-50/52 which have the highest amount of armor.


    http://www.file-upload.net/download-8479237/-----50----.---------------1997-.djvu.html

    From the book of A. Mazepov, A. Mihkaev, V. Zenkin, A Zhirnov and A. Fomin about the Ka-50 called Polygon from 1996, on Page 31, there is said how the Armor was made on Ka-50 and after that also installed on Mi-28.
    It is  a 3 hardlinered armor, the inner cockpit section made of a full single titanium alloy "bathtub" covering both pilots, followed by a middle liner of ceramic plates, which caused trouble first after a single shot they break apart and lost all its protective abilities, they avoided that by covering this ceramic plates with kevlar/aramid that was glued on tightend and the outer liner which gives the aerodynamic shape and is made of alluminium alloy with a part carbon in it. The total armor per pilot for russian Ka-50 which they could use was about 300kg while the Apache uses about 90kg of armor per pilot. The Mi-28 has about 250-280kg which was mentioned somewhere else. The Ka-52 has less armor than both Mi-28 and Ka-50 spend for each pilot but it is still in the figure of 150-200kg.


    And all of this Helicopters clearance of space beneath the pilots is much higher than on A-129/T-129 which would have to suffer higher injuries from crashes than any other AH.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:11 pm

    Any figures about Ka-52 curved transparency armor?


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:16 pm

    No files or direct data i could find, but it is a traditional ballistic shield like any other to sustain shockwaves and low velocity impacts of flying around materials and with that is meant more like bird impacts or stones, not really bullets or anything of that speed.

    Couldn't find the specific manufactor of this glasses.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:40 am

    I have read a report about testing of the Ka-50 with all flat transparencies where it was hovering 200m from a Shilka that fired a 200 round burst into it. The entire tail assembly was blown off, but as that is not necessary in a coaxial design the aircraft was able to fly to a nearby base and land... with heavy vibration.

    It reportedly has a two layer armour structure that makes it rather well protected.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:21 pm

    I don't know, what is the level of armor in Ka-52 cockpit, but RuAF could combine both Ka-52 and Mi-28, where Ka-52 take out AD complexes, defending ground units, from safe distance and than Mi-28 destroy the rest of ground forces and have good armor to survive hits from infantry small arms and heavy machine guns. Interesting is, that Ka-52 is designated as scout helicopter and not as attack helicopter.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:31 pm

    I have read a report about testing of the Ka-50 with all flat transparencies where it was hovering 200m from a Shilka that fired a 200 round burst into it. The entire tail assembly was blown off, but as that is not necessary in a coaxial design the aircraft was able to fly to a nearby base and land... with heavy vibration. wrote:

    Do you have a source for this?

    Sounds little bit unbelievable, (not that it couldn't survive it) but that someone would actually test it.


    Interesting is, that Ka-52 is designated as scout helicopter and not as attack helicopter. wrote:

    Actually Ka-52 was designed as an Attack Helicopter but due the military needs and the operational effeciency lies in coordinated and commanded attacks and not just in technology on its own, they decided to make the older Ka-50 doctrine of beeing special forces attack helicopter with the old plans to mature it in a commanding attack helicopter.

    It may have a little bit lower ballistical protection when compared with Mi-28 and Ka-50 but overall it outperformce both in survivability along with its Vitebsk and DIRCM equipment.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:41 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    Do you have a source for this?

    Sounds little bit unbelievable, (not that it couldn't survive it) but that someone would actually test it.

    They would use remote-control for anything like that.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:43 pm

    They would use remote-control for anything like that. wrote:

    I meant it both ways regardless of unmanned or manned, that test is surely cost intensive at least 16 mln USD cost intensive, don't know if a company can risk so much money.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:04 pm

    It may have a little bit lower ballistical protection when compared with Mi-28 and Ka-50 but overall it outperformce both in survivability along with its Vitebsk and DIRCM equipment.

    This and use of long range ATGM as Hermes (maybe even antiradar Kh-31P, if it will be integrated with Ka-52K, could be also with Ka-52), will make Ka-52 very well suited to do SEAD/DEAD mission for its group of attack helicopters, so they could easier destroy armored vehicles and infantry, considering that western ground forces don't have medium or long range SAM, only MANPADs and SHORADs.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:48 pm

    Along with Hermes-A like you said and even the ZALA-Aero Network for airdropable small UAV's like Zala 421 it will have and already has the highest survivability.

    I'm just waiting when this airdropable UAV's matures into flying kamikaze aircrafts with 1-2kg warheads.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:50 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    I meant it both ways regardless of unmanned or manned, that test is surely cost intensive at least 16 mln USD cost intensive, don't know if a company can risk so much money.

    Most of it should be recoverable.

    Then they can rebuild it and test something else on it.

    I don't think they would use a serial production version for those sorts of tests; more like one of the prototypes lying around whose usage is coming to an end now that the helicopter is readying to enter production.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:36 am

    The article was in a German military magazine called Mil Tech.. (this is their website: http://www.monch.com/mpg/index.php )

    I will see if I can dig the magazine out and give more details... it described the double layer armour of the Ka-50 as making impact of projectiles needing some 2,000 joules of energy... which meant US 20mm cannon was insufficient... you needed a 27mm Mauser or 30mm Soviet calibre to reliably penetrate.

    BTW they were testing armour protection... which requires live fire tests... they would not have fitted the aircraft with sensors and equipment so it would not cost anywhere near 16 million.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:03 pm

    Could it be "military technology ISSUES 6/2013" since it is the only magazine that mentions russian helicopters in the contents?


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:46 am

    No.

    The issue was from the mid to early 1990s and mentioned the name Werewolf for the Ka-50 as being very appropriate as the author calculated the power needed to penetrated its armour required 27mm or more powerful ammo... ie you really need silver bullets for a reliable kill.

    Found it... here is the article:













    Note page 66 under the heading "Hokum Test Firing" and below.

    Note a single 23mm cannon shell would not blow the tail off, but a burst from 100m range would.


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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  medo on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:43 am

    Russian start production of Vikhr ATGMs for RuAF for their Ka-52 helicopters, which they will use together with Hermes. Interesting is, that RuAF operational Ka-52 squadrons don't use Ataka missiles and they still fly without ATGMs. It seems Ataka is option only for export Ka-52.

    I would like to ask, if Mi-28N will also use Vikhr missiles, which will come in RuAF arsenal? They will give longer range to Mi-28, that they could operate from safer distance.

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    Re: Mi-28N Havoc: News

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:38 pm

    Thank you very very much, GarryB.

    I'm collecting such informations for personal work, it also gives me some ground to make a "mapping" of what weapons are effective and less effective against certain attack helicopters.


    I also tried to find someone willing who speaks chinese and knows the common military terminology to provide informations about WZ-10 direct from chinese sources, if you ever find something reliable i would be happy to lie my eyes on that information.

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