Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16375
    Points : 16990
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:31 pm

    For nothing USA have plans to have 100,000 drones in the near future.. They using the pretext of "defense of cities from terrorist" as pretext to build so gigantic attack drone force.

    But will this gigantic drone force be used against Americas external enemies or her internal enemies.

    Escape from New York was a great documentary about the use of Manhatten Island as a huge prison for Americas increasing prison population... perhaps they have updated the plan from the 1980s and they will use armed drones and a desert city like Los Vegas as the prison...

    Charge Rich people money to manually fly the drones around the desert shooting poor people trying to escape... Now it sounds like a Van Damme movie... Hard target...


    I mean ,that i think ,that the performance of the 20 missiles ,2 per channel only apply for small missiles with 40km range.. but if the targets are 400km away ,you can only use the Big missiles ,that only one fit in the tube at the same time. So 10 missiles for 10 targets at 200km-400km range.   And 20 missiles when using the small missiles that have small range . Two can fit per tube.

    I think you are confusing an air defence missile system with a single vehicle. An Air defence missile system can include up to 8 missile carrying vehicles with 4-16 missiles each vehicle depending on their size/range. With all 400km range missiles that means 32 tubes... with all 120km range small missiles (which take up the same amount of space as the 40km range missiles but are just longer) it could have 128 missiles ready to fire.

    Another key point you are not getting is that for every big system like S-400, there will likely be rather more smaller systems like Vityaz (S-350), and even more shorter range systems... and these are Air Force and Air Defence Systems... there will also be ship based SAMs and naval land based SAMs and Army SAMs and of course aircraft.

    Russia doesn't need an S-400 guidance channel for every enemy aircraft... when was the last time every single aircraft in an air force was destroyed?

    Even during WWII the German Air Force managed to destroy 2-3 thousand Soviet aircraft in the first 2-3 weeks of the war but still didn't win. Planes were easier and faster to build back then, but the german forces were also moving through Russian territory so there was no place to hide aircraft so they couldn't find them.

    Russia also had aircraft on her Pacific front.

    Of course, all of these numbers are pretty meaningless. In the way of information denial, the Russians always publish massively lower performance figures for their systems.

    Another factor is hardware and software upgrades, which can increase performance radically overnight.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:43 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Oh .. i see.. then 4 then. thanks..

    Question is.. how many  Trucks units with Tube launchers is an S-400 system?  Two trucks with 5 tube launchers each? = 10 channels?  


    Trucks dont guide missiles. Trucks only carry missiles. Each battery can have up to 12 trucks with 4 tubes each. Each tube can carry one 40N6/48N6 or 4 9M96 missiles.

    30N6 is a shooting radar that guides the missiles to the targets. It calculates and tels each truck what missile and when and how many and all will fire at what targets etc etc Very Happy




    I would advise you to make an efort to learn the basics at least. How the systems functions, what is it made of etc

    You can start here and ask anything you have problem with

    http://www.ausairpower.net/sams-iads.html



    Vann7 wrote:THis is the reason i believe Offense is better than defense and also less expensive. Doesn't means ,im suggesting to not have any defenses. absolutely not. But that Russia needs to get as many cheap attack drones as they can make ,thousands and thousands of them. Enough to overwhelm any nation system of defense and destroy all their enemies long range artillery while remote controlling them by camera.. For nothing USA have plans to have 100,000 drones in the near future.. They using the pretext of "defense of cities from terrorist" as pretext to build so gigantic attack drone force.

    Wrong math  Very Happy . You would need aprox 8 S-400 batteries and than some (of some other systems) ....

    Still can not get a hold of myself after revelation that domestic version of S-400 has 60% more engagement capability than export version - I need sleep over to get a grasp and

    implications of this madness.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:04 am

    Nice  Very Happy  thumbsup 

    Colonel Alexei Zolotukhin EKR

    More than 250 representatives of the governing bodies of the Defense Ministry and army aerospace defense industrialists to discuss the state of the troops and the use of weapons issues ballistic missile defense, air and missile defense

    Guide troops ASD and industrialists to discuss the development of technology

    its getting bigger and bigger and to think about Tver which was saved from closure just recently - when you have trust of 250 brains in one place thinking and planning something big is about

    to happen and besides this meeting is the reason why now we know now about 10 channel engagement capability of Russian S-400 !
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:42 pm

    3 regiments of S-400 is now I think sealed  thumbsup 

    Aerospace Defense Troops could get more S-400 missiles in 2014 - commander




    Nice - preparations for AD unification with Russia begun.

    New parts of troops formed ASD now in Crimea

    Vann7

    Posts : 3472
    Points : 3584
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:59 pm


    CHina could request up to 4 divisions of S-400s to Russia..

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725893


    How much quad tube launchers have 1 division?
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:11 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    CHina could request up to 4 divisions of S-400s to Russia..

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725893


    How much quad tube launchers have 1 division?

    up to 12 launchers and for 4 division that makes 48 launchers and ability to guide 48 missiles on 24 targets. Remember that China bought up to 40 S-300 batteries but all that started with

    small initial batch.

    Austin

    Posts : 6271
    Points : 6669
    Join date : 2010-05-08
    Location : India

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Austin on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:24 pm

    I wonder if they would export 40N6 missile of S-400 series ?
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:38 pm

    Austin wrote:I wonder if they would export 40N6 missile of S-400 series ?

    I believe that they will because even now you can choose to buy S-300VM (from 2011) with its 350km range.


    S-300 in Crimea


    Vann7

    Posts : 3472
    Points : 3584
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:04 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    CHina could request up to 4 divisions of S-400s to Russia..

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/725893


    How much quad tube launchers have 1 division?

    up to 12 launchers and for 4 division that makes 48 launchers and ability to guide 48 missiles on 24 targets. Remember that China bought up to 40 S-300 batteries but all that started with

    small initial batch.

    When you talk about launchers.. you mean Missile tubes? 1 long range missile = 1 launcher?

    SO 1 division have 12 missile tubes that equals to 12 long range missiles ..? or (12 x 4) = 48 small range missiles?
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:23 am

    Vann7 wrote:When you talk about launchers.. you mean Missile tubes?   1 long range missile = 1 launcher?

    SO 1 division have 12 missile tubes that equals to 12 long range missiles ..? or (12 x 4) = 48 small range missiles?

    1 battery/division has in full 12 launchers. Each launcher has 4 missile tubes. In each missile tube you can put one big or 4 small missiles. Beacuse of that you have:

    1 battery = 12 launchers x 4 missile tubes = 48 BIG missiles (40N6/48N6) or you can have 12 launchers x 4 missile tubes x 4 small missiles (each per tube) = 192 missiles (9M96 class)

    but what is more important is the number target engagement channels meaning number of shooting radars at your disposal.

    Each 30N6 can guide 12 missiles on 6 targets and the more of 30N6 you have the more targets with more missiles you can shoot.
    avatar
    TR1

    Posts : 5681
    Points : 5709
    Join date : 2011-12-06

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  TR1 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:25 am

    Russia is getting 8 launchers per battery right?

    Lenta mentions China would be buying 8 launcher per battery as well.

    Do we have any news of Russia or any export customers actually buying 9M96 for Favorit or Triumph units? I think the capability is paper at best, we will see 9M96 on S-350.

    Also it should be noted the quad packed missiles (9M96) are small compared to the standard rounds, but by no means are they short range. 120-150km is better than the original 5V55 by far!
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:51 am

    TR1 wrote:Russia is getting 8 launchers per battery right?

    Lenta mentions China would be buying 8 launcher per battery as well.


    Export norm is 8 launchers per battery which is why China is getting 8 launchers per battery although if someone wants they may opt to add more launchers/radars/decoys/ECM/ELINT

    etc for a price off course.

    Russian tend to use at least 8 launchers per battery but for a prepaired loacations that does not matter since each of those has their own very large stock of missiles.




    TR1 wrote:Do we have any news of Russia or any export customers actually buying 9M96 for Favorit or Triumph units? I think the capability is paper at best, we will see 9M96 on S-350.

    Sadly I think no one had a chance to buy 9M96 within Favorit since development of the missile lasted until recently and perhaps its still being tested.



    TR1 wrote:Also it should be noted the quad packed missiles (9M96) are small compared to the standard rounds, but by no means are they short range. 120-150km is better than the original 5V55 by far!

    Yup, quite powerful stuff that will greatly enchant even existing AD systems.

    rambo54

    Posts : 132
    Points : 136
    Join date : 2014-04-01

    TELs

    Post  rambo54 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:43 am

    gentlemen!
    I have a question regarding the TEL vehicles of S-400 system.
    606, 210 and 183 RGT got two Battalions each with 5P85T2.
    There is photo & video evidence that 589, 1537 and 93 RGT got 5P85S2 on MAZ basis.
    Especially the turn to use 5P85S2 at Moscow (93rd) is supprisingly to me.
    But what could we expect for the three Regiments in 2014?
    Will it be the 5P90 chassis or the 51P6A?
    As far as I know the next two RGT will be the 500th and 1489 near St.Petersburg.
    Thanks
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 16375
    Points : 16990
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:28 pm

    Do we have any news of Russia or any export customers actually buying 9M96 for Favorit or Triumph units? I think the capability is paper at best, we will see 9M96 on S-350.

    Personally I suspect the ability to load 4 missiles in one tube for an S-300 or S-400 battery to improve self defence is intended for situations where the terrain or enemy forces make such a load out desirable... ie mountains making shots at targets more than 150km away difficult or impossible, or the known threat of large numbers of enemy cruise missile launch platforms including air and naval platforms where more missiles is more useful than the extra range the larger missiles offer.

    I rather suspect the introduction of S-350 will make the use of the smaller missiles in the larger batteries less useful and create a situation where S-400 and S-500 can deal with targets and threats they are ideal to counter while S-350 will take out closer targets more efficiently and cost effectively. The smaller S-350 system hopefully smaller and lighter and more mobile and hopefully cheaper enough to be made in enormous numbers.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    SOC

    Posts : 581
    Points : 628
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 39
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  SOC on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:08 pm

    Viktor wrote:S-300 in Crimea


    That should be the S-300PM battery seen on railcars heading out of Krym. Gvardeysk?
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Tue Apr 01, 2014 4:36 pm

    rambo54 wrote:gentlemen!
    I have a question regarding the TEL vehicles of S-400 system.
    606, 210 and 183 RGT got two Battalions each with 5P85T2.
    There is photo & video evidence that 589, 1537 and 93 RGT got 5P85S2 on MAZ basis.
    Especially the turn to use 5P85S2 at Moscow (93rd) is supprisingly to me.
    But what could we expect for the three Regiments in 2014?
    Will it be the 5P90 chassis or the 51P6A?
    As far as I know the next two RGT will be the 500th and 1489 near St.Petersburg.
    Thanks

    I think from now on we will see self-propeled S-400 TEL exclusively but which ones, I dont know or care but what I do care is 3 new S-400 regiments that was promised to be delivered during

    2014 making total of 10 until 2015 starts Very Happy
    avatar
    SOC

    Posts : 581
    Points : 628
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 39
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  SOC on Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:05 am

    Google Earth has new imagery of Gvardeskoye. You can see two S-300PM batteries deployed.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 884
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:38 pm

    Hi there SOC.

    Hmmm got a little question, well we know the US may have already possessed S-300 system in Tolicha peak electronic warfare range and use it for exploitation test, did they ever declassified anything regarding the performance of the system ? Would be nice to have "other perspective" About the system.

    avatar
    SOC

    Posts : 581
    Points : 628
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 39
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  SOC on Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:22 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Hi there SOC.

    Hmmm got a little question, well we know the US may have already possessed S-300 system in Tolicha peak electronic warfare range and use it for exploitation test, did they ever declassified anything regarding the performance of the system ? Would be nice to have "other perspective" About the system.


    No. Also, there are S-300P components at a bunch of places. I've found both S-300PT and S-300PS bits and pieces.
    avatar
    Stealthflanker

    Posts : 800
    Points : 884
    Join date : 2009-08-04
    Age : 29
    Location : Indonesia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:53 pm

    SOC wrote:

    No.  Also, there are S-300P components at a bunch of places.  I've found both S-300PT and S-300PS bits and pieces.

    Thanks for the answer. Well that's unfortunate that they didn't released a thing.

    anyway do you think Carlo kopp (ausairpower.net)'s review on S-300 family exaggerating ? Or his review is representative. I have seen many complaints about his bias and stuff but nonetheless in my view his technical review is very excellent.

    thanks again for your insight.
    avatar
    SOC

    Posts : 581
    Points : 628
    Join date : 2011-09-13
    Age : 39
    Location : Indianapolis

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  SOC on Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:08 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:Thanks for the answer. Well that's unfortunate that they didn't released a thing.

    anyway do you think Carlo kopp (ausairpower.net)'s review on S-300 family exaggerating ? Or his review is representative. I have seen many complaints about his bias and stuff but nonetheless in my view his technical review is very excellent.

    thanks again for your insight.

    He's no more or less biased than anyone else writing about what they think is best for their own nation's military. Hell, my answer is probably biased because I've worked with him and the APA guys for years. But I can tell you this. He's got a PhD in electrical engineering and is one of the people who can legitimately figure out radar characteristics by looking at the radar array and some of the components. Some of the other APA guys are former test pilots and RAAF pilots. Also, he's not exaggerating the S-300.

    Most of people's complaining about APA is because they don't like the F-35. People tend to ignore the fact that these guys aren't pulling things out of their asses and might just actually have the experience and brainpower to accurately analyze things. A while back they released a series of performance specs for the F-35 that were lower than what Lockheed was claiming. Guess what? A few years later, after flight testing the US military magically reduced a lot of the performance requirements, and they ended up pretty much matching the APA numbers.
    avatar
    medo

    Posts : 3208
    Points : 3296
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  medo on Thu Apr 17, 2014 8:00 pm

    SOC wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:Thanks for the answer. Well that's unfortunate that they didn't released a thing.

    anyway do you think Carlo kopp (ausairpower.net)'s review on S-300 family exaggerating ? Or his review is representative. I have seen many complaints about his bias and stuff but nonetheless in my view his technical review is very excellent.

    thanks again for your insight.

    He's no more or less biased than anyone else writing about what they think is best for their own nation's military.  Hell, my answer is probably biased because I've worked with him and the APA guys for years.  But I can tell you this.  He's got a PhD in electrical engineering and is one of the people who can legitimately figure out radar characteristics by looking at the radar array and some of the components.  Some of the other APA guys are former test pilots and RAAF pilots.  Also, he's not exaggerating the S-300.

    Most of people's complaining about APA is because they don't like the F-35.  People tend to ignore the fact that these guys aren't pulling things out of their asses and might just actually have the experience and brainpower to accurately analyze things.  A while back they released a series of performance specs for the F-35 that were lower than what Lockheed was claiming.  Guess what?  A few years later, after flight testing the US military magically reduced a lot of the performance requirements, and they ended up pretty much matching the APA numbers.

    So we could take APA (Kopp) articles about Russian SAMsa and IADS as credible source. They bring a lot of interesting informations, specially radars.
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:02 pm

    Nice video - Russian PVO troops are getting lots of practice

    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:47 pm

    S-300 for everyone !!!  Very Happy 

    Putin calls for air defense systems to increase production for export

    This is an area where Russia absolutely rules and should exploit it to the fullest
    avatar
    Viktor

    Posts : 5669
    Points : 6312
    Join date : 2009-08-25
    Age : 36
    Location : Croatia

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Viktor on Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:13 pm

    Another S-400 regiment is put on alert near Moscow  thumbsup 

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-400 began to guard the sky over Moscow

    Sponsored content

    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:31 pm