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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue May 15, 2018 9:04 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    .........
    But they are building 4 of them and should get another 4 right?

    6 in total apparently. Original idea was at least 15 built but it didnt go..by the plan, to say at least.

    6? This is news to me. When did they add last two to the roster? Got source?

    It's not much but still better than 4 I guess...
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Tue May 15, 2018 10:40 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    6? This is news to me. When did they add last two to the roster? Got source?

    It's not much but still better than 4 I guess...

    IF they keep to the original contract from 2012. there should be 6 in total. That is when they signed for the construction of 6 hulls.

    https://vpk.name/news/65306_severnaya_verf_podpisala_kontraktyi_na_stroitelstvo_13_boevyih_korablei_dlya_vmf_rf.html
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Tue May 15, 2018 10:59 pm

    Would suspect unless the hulls are already laid that it will only be 4... why build regular when you can go SUPER cheers
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 pm

    franco wrote:Would suspect unless the hulls are already laid that it will only be 4... why build regular when you can go SUPER cheers

    I'm all for Super Gorshkov, they really need new destroyers...but, what about frigates then, they also need frigates badly, more than destroyers. Question Suspect
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Tue May 15, 2018 11:14 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suspect unless the hulls are already laid that it will only be 4... why build regular when you can go SUPER cheers

    I'm all for Super Gorshkov, they really need new destroyers...but, what about frigates then, they also need frigates badly, more than destroyers. Question Suspect

    The needs are many but the resources few.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Tue May 15, 2018 11:35 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:
    franco wrote:Would suspect unless the hulls are already laid that it will only be 4... why build regular when you can go SUPER cheers

    I'm all for Super Gorshkov, they really need new destroyers...but, what about frigates then, they also need frigates badly, more than destroyers. Question Suspect

    Liders for superbig, Supergorshov or gorshkov M for big, Grigorovicht and gorshkov for normal size frigates and they don't need to worry about the corvettes they have easily 10 design for them.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 16, 2018 4:45 am

    In many ways their corvette designs are comparable to cold war era destroyers...

    If they can get redut working it exceeds the performance of any cold war naval SAM...

    A cold war destroyer like Udaloy or Sovremmeny had 8 main strike weapons... Silex or Sunburn... that is what the Corvettes are fitted out for with one UKSK launcher... frigates with two UKSK launchers have double the fire power...

    More importantly 360 degree AESA radar arrays and new optronics and other new systems makes them pretty impressive vessels.

    Smaller vessels lack range and endurance... but with a modular design scaling up should not be a huge problem.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed May 16, 2018 9:19 am

    Pretty sure its going to be complete the 4 already in-build then move on to Super Gorshkov or they'd have laid down more hulls by now.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed May 16, 2018 4:28 pm

    Well the SG's are the Russian DD's.

    Liders are Cruisers.

    Has for frigates well if you build enough DD's you don't really need frigates. Unless you just want a gigantic navy which is something Russia cannot afford, currently going by how they are behaving Russia will, for the most part, forget about frigates.

    Move onto the SG's and that will be it which is fine the only thing is they then gotta build a crap more ton of DD's then they would have if they also built frigates on the side.

    So imo the frigate class for the Russian navy is pretty much dead now, they may make corvettes in similar sizes to a frigate but that's it.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed May 16, 2018 4:36 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    .........
    But they are building 4 of them and should get another 4 right?

    6 in total apparently. Original idea was at least 15 built but it didnt go..by the plan, to say at least.

    6? This is news to me. When did they add last two to the roster? Got source?

    It's not much but still better than 4 I guess...

    I think he means the two laid down in early 2018 with the hull numbers 925, 926.

    However those are Super Grog's, the Russian said a contact said Project 22530M these vessels are also supposed to be dropped into the water in 2025 so that build time of seven years at least makes sense giving the size of the vessel this is their first DD sized ships in decades.

    Moscow is additional in talks for another two with the hull numbers 927, 928.

    The two known are going to the Pacific Fleet.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed May 16, 2018 5:11 pm

    I think he means the two laid down in early 2018 with the hull numbers 925, 926.
    Wait what? Shocked Where is this info from? Suspect

    Has for frigates well if you build enough DD's you don't really need frigates
    If 20386 are actually 3400ton, work properly & can be built quick thats the Frigate slot sorted.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 18, 2018 5:20 pm


    OK, I looked up those extra two Gorshkovs and only thing I found was this from wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral_Gorshkov-class_frigate#cite_note-variant-40

    Noted to be well along in construction as of early 2018 (May be a Project 22350M vessel.)

    If they by some chance got off their asses in advance and started working on Super-Gosrshkov than I will gladly eat a humble pie but for now proof is slim.

    A simple concept art would go a long way, funny how we get nothing for this but when it comes to Anime destroyers and Fanart carriers we get shitload...
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 19, 2018 2:29 am

    Has for frigates well if you build enough DD's you don't really need frigates. Unless you just want a gigantic navy which is something Russia cannot afford, currently going by how they are behaving Russia will, for the most part, forget about frigates.

    A frigate is a useful lighter vessel that is relatively cheap to buy and operate, but I suspect what has happened is that they have realised that their Corvette designs are very much more powerful than their old Frigates and they are perhaps realising they should have made their new frigates better armed and used them actually as destroyers, and that if the fire power is so easy to scale up it makes more sense to fit as many UKSK launchers as they can and get a powerful vessel into standard service.

    I think therefore they wont bother with frigate level vessels but that their planned destroyers will also get better armament too, so for the moment they have corvettes and some stalled light destroyers but will then start building heavy destroyers and then look at some cruisers later in the game, a stop gap for the cruisers of course is an upgrade to existing larger platforms like the Kirov and Slava class vessels they still have.

    There is certainly no reason to panic yet.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 19, 2018 3:56 am


    Derzkii-class​: large corvette or small frigate

    Super-Gorshkov: large frigate or small destroyer


    There is nothing drastic happening here other than some shift in definition of size

    Dropping all frigate vessels in favor of Super-Gorshkov works fine, they will still have Derzkiis to stand in for frigates, now they just need to build the damn things already

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat May 19, 2018 6:35 am

    OK, I looked up those extra two Gorshkovs and only thing I found was this from wiki:
    I'm less than convinced.
    On the other hand russian-ships.info lists them as 'under construction' so it must be true I guess unshaven /s
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:56 am

    I hope the super gorshkovs get reloadable Pantsir-Ms.

    kumbor

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    Russian navy shipbuilding industry, news

    Post  kumbor on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Has for frigates well if you build enough DD's you don't really need frigates. Unless you just want a gigantic navy which is something Russia cannot afford, currently going by how they are behaving Russia will, for the most part, forget about frigates.

    A frigate is a useful lighter vessel that is relatively cheap to buy and operate, but I suspect what has happened is that they have realised that their Corvette designs are very much more powerful than their old Frigates and they are perhaps realising they should have made their new frigates better armed and used them actually as destroyers, and that if the fire power is so easy to scale up it makes more sense to fit as many UKSK launchers as they can and get a powerful vessel into standard service.

    I think therefore they wont bother with frigate level vessels but that their planned destroyers will also get better armament too, so for the moment they have corvettes and some stalled light destroyers but will then start building heavy destroyers and then look at some cruisers later in the game, a stop gap for the cruisers of course is an upgrade to existing larger platforms like the Kirov and Slava class vessels they still have.

    There is certainly no reason to panic yet.

    Nowadays there is much "overlapping" between similar ship-types. Frigates and destroyers have very much in common, except that destroyers are bigger and better equipped for variety of roles. The biggest problem in Russian navy is slow building rate, slow refits and lack of systematic building of the navy.
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:31 am

    Considering Super Gorshkov...it should have around 8.000 tonnes, right? Now, we have project 22350, which has 5.400 tonnes (max). My question is, IF Russia ever decide to build project Lider, according to TASS after 2020 and will have "only" 10-15.000 tonnes, would it be logical to built Super Gorshkovs after all...I don't see a point in building them along with Lider class, only if Russia decide not to build nuclear heavy destroyer, then building Super Gorshkov would be logical, at least to me. Am I right or...? Question Surprised
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    LMFS

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  LMFS on Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:42 am

    littlerabbit wrote:Considering Super Gorshkov...it should have around 8.000 tonnes, right? Now, we have project 22350, which has 5.400 tonnes (max). My question is, IF Russia ever decide to build project Lider, according to TASS after 2020 and will have "only" 10-15.000 tonnes, would it be logical to built Super Gorshkovs after all...I don't see a point in building them along with Lider class, only if Russia decide not to build nuclear heavy destroyer, then building Super Gorshkov would be logical, at least to me. Am I right or...? Question Surprised
    Certainly other guys in the forum are more knowledgeable than me on the topic, but I would say that Super Gorshkovs are going to cover in practical terms the role of traditional destroyers and Lider are nuclear and extremely powerful vessels rather in the role of nuclear cruisers. So I think it makes full sense to build both of them.

    For comparison, an Arleigh-Burke destroyer weights depending on production version between 8300 and 9800 T, and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser 9800 T. So a "destroyer" with 15.000 T is not small at all...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:57 am

    LMFS wrote:
    For comparison, an Arleigh-Burke destroyer weights depending on production version between 8300 and 9800 T, and a Ticonderoga-class cruiser 9800 T. So a "destroyer" with 15.000 T is not small at all...

    Zumwals is ~16000t . Lider's task is closer to Zumwalt's then Allright Burke IMHO.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:13 am

    Liders are supposed to be like 17000 tons.

    These are cruisers, not DD's.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 am

    I think its more a question of if its worth building Lider when you're building Super Gorshkovs.
    High-Low mix made plenty of sense with small Gorshkov, less so with a fairly big Super Gorshkov.

    kumbor

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kumbor on Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:32 am

    [quote="SeigSoloyvov"]Liders are supposed to be like 17000 tons.

    These are cruisers, not DD's. [/quote

    Zumwalt is rated as a destroyer. For Lider we still don`t know. Maybe that classification as a destroyer will be only smokescreen to allocate funding! Obviously, both projects look more as cruisers!

    Nowadays there is no strict difference between ship types.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:51 am

    kumbor wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Liders are supposed to be like 17000 tons.

    These are cruisers, not DD's.

    Zumwalt is rated as a destroyer. For Lider we still don`t know. Maybe that classification as a destroyer will be only smokescreen to allocate funding! Obviously, both projects look more as cruisers!

    Nowadays there is no strict difference between ship types.
    [/quote]

    yup I agree. Anyway tasks for those ships in similar categories will be similar. however in case of Lider I'd presume: more focus on anti CSG/anti ship operations then Zumwalt.
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:25 pm

    I believe project 22350 is maybe smaller than old Soviet destroyers, but more capable than them, so I don't see necessity for just a little bigger Gorshkov...especially if they are really going to built Lider class. Suspect I've read somewhere that project 22350 was supposed to relieve all destroyers (Sovremenny's and Udaloy's), but they are only building 4 Gorshkovs?! Shocked I know you guys were talking about problems with engines, shipyards, maybe even money...but still, this whole situation with this particular project looks to me totally strange. unshaven

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