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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    LMFS

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  LMFS on Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:33 pm

    hoom wrote:I think its more a question of if its worth building Lider when you're building Super Gorshkovs.
    High-Low mix made plenty of sense with small Gorshkov, less so with a fairly big Super Gorshkov.

    I am not aware of what weapons and systems the SG (Super Gorshkov) will carry, but I think it is reasonable to suspect a multi-role ship, destroyer sized (more VLS cells, bigger AD/ASW capability)



    But the Lider is expected to be:

    1) Nuclear-powered, with the huge consequences this has in regards of having a global reach
    2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500 and, if to be judged from models, a very big and developed radar system

    Cancelling Liders because of the SGs means as much as saying that anything above the size and capability of an average destroyer is not necessary in the Russian navy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:48 pm

    2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500
    Yeah I guess Lider with S-4/500 still makes sense if Super Gorshkov mainly just bumps cell count.
    Doubling cell count to 96 of the fully universal UKSK-M & upgrading CIWS to Pantsir-M feels like a good target.
    But 8,000ton might be big enough to give it S-4/500 capability & then Lider makes less sense. (but cell count might be a bit low)

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kumbor on Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:49 pm

    hoom wrote:
    2) A very major AD and ABM asset including missiles from S-500
    Yeah I guess Lider with S-4/500 still makes sense if Super Gorshkov mainly just bumps cell count.
    Doubling cell count to 96 of the fully universal UKSK-M & upgrading CIWS to Pantsir-M feels like a good target.
    But 8,000ton might be big enough to give it S-4/500 capability & then Lider makes less sense. (but cell count might be a bit low)

    It all depends on money! Frankly, Kirov class large cruisers were even in USSR presumed too expensive and too big, dubbed "golden toys of admiral Gorshkov".

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:08 pm

    Perhaps more depends on whether appropriate radar/missiles can be brought to service in timely manner.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:28 pm

    I haven't heard much, but doubt they would stop at 4 ships, especially given Russia's dire need of Frigates, the 5th ship is reportedly called Admiral Yumashev.

    As for the Gorshkov engines, reports indicate that the locally built engines for the following ships will be ready by this year.

    And the SG, talks are abound, but there might be some actual move to get the SG instead of the Lider, price wise it makes perfect sense, and the tech is already developed, they are probably simply waiting for the first Gorshkov to be commissioned before they move to the next step, afterwards the only thing that really needs to be developed is the naval S-400, which could be done in short order.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kumbor on Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:20 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:I haven't heard much, but doubt they would stop at 4 ships, especially given Russia's dire need of Frigates, the 5th ship is reportedly called Admiral Yumashev.

    As for the Gorshkov engines, reports indicate that the locally built engines for the following ships will be ready by this year.

    And the SG, talks are abound, but there might be some actual move to get the SG instead of the Lider, price wise it makes perfect sense, and the tech is already developed, they are probably simply waiting for the first Gorshkov to be commissioned before they move to the next step, afterwards the only thing that really needs to be developed is the naval S-400, which could be done in short order.

    Frankly, i fear that in the end it could be none will be built!
    i have studied russian and soviet projects from 1915-17 and 1935-50. What gorgeous ideas, what marvelous ships were on the drawing board! Battleships of 35.000 tons with 12/406 artillery. Battleships of 65.000 tons were started building - project 23, later project 24 of 80.000 tons full displacement.
    But, neither of them were even launched, they were never finished.

    Modern russian navy is getting rid of old soviet ships, new vessels are being built, but the rate of building is low. There is serious wavering from side to side, with lack of strategy how major ships should look like. Nevertheless, SS missiles are second to none, as are SA systems. Electronics are taking pace with western achievements and russian made propulsion is progressing.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:17 pm

    kumbor wrote:
    Frankly, i fear that in the end it could be none will be built!
    i have studied russian and soviet projects from 1915-17 and 1935-50. What gorgeous ideas, what marvelous ships were on the drawing board! Battleships of 35.000 tons with 12/406 artillery. Battleships of 65.000 tons were started building - project 23, later project 24 of 80.000 tons full displacement.
    But, neither of them were even launched, they were never finished.

    so according to you a 80,000 battleship with absence of war and any need + battleships being obsolete makes sense?!



    [qute] Modern russian navy is getting rid of old soviet ships, new vessels are being built, but the rate of building is low. There is serious wavering from side to side, with lack of strategy how major ships should look like. [/quote]

    Not entirely correct IMHO. Shipbuilding is not in parallel universe.

    First Russia had to rebuild all industry from almost scratch. This is not only equipment or training people. Ti is also, or foremost, building network of subcontractors, efficient management and removing as many as possible price inflating schema.

    On top of this add generation change in army /fleet. Why to you thing Putin sacked so many generals and get many new names to both govt and army staff?

    And last but not least money supply & external situation impacts strategy right ? nobody could say for sure that USA makes so fast Ukrainian coup to hit Russia. Sanctions also took its toll. If you take this into consideration situation is not that bad with shipbuilding?


    OK one thing is fucked up. 22160 should both main entry level corvette and MRK replacing 22800. lol1 lol1 lol1
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:16 pm


    Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/
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    LMFS

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

    Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:11 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

    Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?

    They still haven't received first unit, no more are being ordered and design is already becoming outdated.

    Situation would be different if they had dozen more on production line, problems would still be there but once solved they would at least have ships in numbers at some point. This way however, they are left with nothing.
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    LMFS

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:50 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

    Do you mean the ship will fail to fulfil specs long term / be unreliable or simply that its time line is dismal?

    They still haven't received first unit, no more are being ordered and design is already becoming outdated.

    Situation would be different if they had dozen more on production line, problems would still be there but once solved they would at least have ships in numbers at some point. This way however, they are left with nothing.
    When dealing with such a troubled project, there is no way things are going to go smoothly after some point in time. Everything that can make a problem will make it, right to the bitter end. But I don't think the fate of the class is sealed, rather think this is a moment of re-assessment for the Russian navy. Probably the five units under construction will be finished, maybe also the sixth one apparently ordered. In parallel the design will be evaluated (AD system is new and engines are new too) and a decision will be taken to build more units or to update the design prior to that, or even to go for the Super Gorshkovs also. Imagine they order more ships and during early operation of the class it is clear Poliment-Redut is crap or the new engines unreliable. The good thing is after slowly mastering these issues, they will be in conditions to build state of the art frigates and destroyers with advance AD and strike systems, so the pain is well worth it.
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:17 pm

    LMFS wrote:

    When dealing with such a troubled project, there is no way things are going to go smoothly after some point in time. Everything that can make a problem will make it, right to the bitter end. But I don't think the fate of the class is sealed, rather think this is a moment of re-assessment for the Russian navy. Probably the five units under construction will be finished, maybe also the sixth one apparently ordered. In parallel the design will be evaluated (AD system is new and engines are new too) and a decision will be taken to build more units or to update the design prior to that, or even to go for the Super Gorshkovs also. Imagine they order more ships and during early operation of the class it is clear Poliment-Redut is crap or the new engines unreliable. The good thing is after slowly mastering these issues, they will be in conditions to build state of the art frigates and destroyers with advance AD and strike systems, so the pain is well worth it.

    This is all great, but they had so many years since the first one is laid down (2006) to make a RUSSIAN engine and a lot of other things for project 22350, but they obviously didn't think about it! Now, they are f**ked up and wondering around. It looks to me like those guys who did this blunder with Gorshkov are related to us, Serbs. Very Happy  We are very good in f**king up things like that. respekt
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  LMFS on Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:42 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:
    This is all great, but they had so many years since the first one is laid down (2006) to make a RUSSIAN engine and a lot of other things for project 22350, but they obviously didn't think about it! Now, they are f**ked up and wondering around. It looks to me like those guys who did this blunder with Gorshkov are related to us, Serbs. Very Happy  We are very good in f**king up things like that. respekt
    Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt

    Nevertheless, consider the environment the project had to face. Only the substitution of the Ukrainian engine is enough to delay such a project for a whole decade or cancel it completely, what are you expecting Russians to do? The problem appeared in 2014 and now it seems the new engines are going to be made available. There is simply no way it can be done faster. The Poliment-Redut is also another difficulty, but the Almaz guys were also busy with the S-500 which has much bigger, strategic relevance. If you add the fact that Russia essentially lost the shipbuilding capability during the 90's it all makes sense, unnerving as it can be...
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:59 am

    LMFS wrote:Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt

    The Serbs have cucked themselves long ago when they succumbed to EU/NATO and allowed the 5th columnists into power. The only thing they excel at now is their ability to rest on their knees for extended periods and to service whatever member is inserted into their collective pie-holes by their Overlords in Washington, or the Imperial satraps that are occupying Brussels. I think the Serbs resent Russia for remaining sovereign and independent and free, all the things they themselves have failed to do. Russia is an example of what Serbia could have been if they hadn't given in to EU geopolitical mendacity or NATO warmongering. Milosevich, for all his failings, had it right when he opposed the Empire. He is gone, and his "successors" have disgraced themselves and their nation with their venality and cowardice.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:19 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Gorshkov delayed yet again (shocker...) this time to November. I think it's safe to say that this thing is a bust...

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C27/

    The 22350 is a bust?... Oh FFS... PapaChickenLittle is at it again I see...

    At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the delays with the Gorshkov are associated with the integration and performance of an all-new generation of weapons and systems, and the Navy will not accept the vessel until ALL problems are resolved to their satisfaction. Unlike the US or NATO (where they accept vessels with faulty systems and unperforming machinery) the Ruskies demand their MIC companies actually deliver to the spec. They also don't accelerate deliveries by throwing money at the MIC, otherwise known as rewarding for failure.

    The series build has been essentially suspended until engine issues (courtesy of the Ukropistani fuktardz) are finally resolved, again to the Navy satisfaction. Creation of a certified MGT powerplant was always going to be a 5-year project, and its hardly a surprise that the Navy has opted to defer the laying down of new Frigate-sized (and larger) vessels until they can get the certainty that their hulls won't be left for years without operable engines. Why the foxtrot do people think its sensible for Russia to fill up its shipyards with unfinished hulls lacking engines, all on the promise of a turbine maker who doesn't have a proven MGT? The idea is fucking madness, yet forum clowns keep banging on about this like a 10-year old autistic child who wants his ice-cream and wants it now....

    The Gorshkov will be accepted when it is 100% ready and not before, the Kasanatov likewise. The rest will be completed when the engines are ready. Future hulls will likely be the "Super Gorshkov" variant as due to the sucess of the Kalibre system the Navy wants more firepower on its hulls.

    Lets act (and post) like adults about this. No more Chicken Little "sky is falling" bullshit, as it all becoming so fucking tiresome....
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:14 am

    LMFS wrote:.....Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt .....

    Nothing to do with brotherhood, it's simple similarity in mindset and mentality.

    When something in Russia goes tits up there are differences in reactions.

    Usual non-Russians say: "Oh gosh, I wonder what went wrong?"

    Serbs, being familiar with mindset simply say: "I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE F*UCK WENT WRONG!!!"

    I sure as shit won't be praising them for their fuckups, I don't do that even for Serbs....


    Big_Gazza wrote:.....
    The Serbs have cucked themselves long ago when they succumbed to EU/NATO and allowed the 5th columnists into power. The only thing they excel at now is their ability to rest on their knees for extended periods and to service whatever member is inserted into their collective pie-holes by their Overlords in Washington, or the Imperial satraps that are occupying Brussels.......

    Oh look, who we have here talking on topic he is so frequent practicioner of? Little kangaroo humper from Melbourne, Australia ain't it?

    Now, there is no way Australians would be cucked by Uncle Sam now is it? Not them of all people... lol1

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:15 am

    I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already? Suspect

    On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...
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    franco

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:22 am

    hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already? Suspect

    On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

    Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:46 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Oh look, who we have here talking on topic he is so frequent practicioner of? Little kangaroo humper from Melbourne, Australia ain't it?

    Now, there is no way Australians would be cucked by Uncle Sam now is it? Not them of all people... lol1

    Yep, sorry to say but Aw-Stral-ya is one fucked-up cucked nation. Seppos snap their fingers and our pathetic politicos have already saluted before they are halfway up... I'd hang every last of them if it was up to me.

    BTW don't knock roo-humping if'n you've never given it a red hot go. Mate, those things go like the clappers... strong too... I'm not from Sydney, so i steer clear of the males...

    Very Happy

    miroslav

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miroslav on Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:35 pm

    Lets, please, not go into this nationality and Serbian, or any ones else's, mentality issue, the forum relay doesn't need it.

    I'm a Serb, and I just like ship, planes, the navy and engineering, my old man is a Navy officer so that's that.
    And by the way, the person giving the most annoying and at the same time the most honest critic is the person that cares the most for something.

    Back to the topic, Russia is so successful in many other areas of militarily engineering, land or naval, air defense or anti ship or submarine and they have bean at the fore front of so many thing then and now that it is a disgrace that they cant get this ship done. A do not agree that this ship is a quantum leap of technology, perhaps for the navy in the sense that its all in one place in a frigate size ship, but not for the whole Russian military industry. Russia should be more that capable of dealing with and producing complex software and hardware systems for ship in a period of 15 years.

    Regardless of that, it would take so little time to simply put 3 Shtil launch complexes (36 missiles) and tested radar systems with the latest modifications and be done with it, it would work and it would be effective. The ship would be at least in it's 3rd year in service by now and guarding the Syrian coast from the Murican Burks.

    There had to be a way to put this new stuff on an old platform and test it that way, they did that with so many other things. It certainly would not take that long or be that expensive, compared to the money pit that the current Gorskov is and they would have more operational ship right now.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:37 pm

    franco wrote:
    hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already? Suspect

    On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

    Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

    But I read in march that the poliment redut is working perfectly.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:05 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt .

    Lets say its like this. We hate Russians to fail. Which they...sort of somehow manage always. Then we get alot of shit from our neighbours who cant stand Russians. So i have Croatian neighbour that literally calls you to tell you that Russian satelite launch failed.

    Do you get it now? I dont HATE Russian Navy, I HATE THAT THEY ARE FAILING. Which drives me to be critic, great, huge... massive critic. Fyi i am married to a Russian, so it makes very little sense for me to hate Russians.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miroslav on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:08 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    franco wrote:
    hoom wrote:I thought they'd previously announced it wouldn't be until late 2018 already? Suspect

    On the other hand & if I'm remembering wrong, its up North doing shooting trials atm so the timing of this announcement may represent results of those trials being less than satisfactory...

    Reading that they still don't have the bugs out of the Redut Air Defense system... same reason we are not seeing any S350's yet.

    But I read in march that the poliment redut is working perfectly.

    When was the last time you saw a test launch of that system on youtube or elsewhere, we saw plenty of Shtil launches, individual and salvos, at one or multiple targets.
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:17 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    LMFS wrote:Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt

    The Serbs have cucked themselves long ago when they succumbed to EU/NATO and allowed the 5th columnists into power.  The only thing they excel at now is their ability to rest on their knees for extended periods and to service whatever member is inserted into their collective pie-holes by their Overlords in Washington, or the Imperial satraps that are occupying Brussels.  I think the Serbs resent Russia for remaining sovereign and independent and free, all the things they themselves have failed to do.  Russia is an example of what Serbia could have been if they hadn't given in to EU geopolitical mendacity or NATO warmongering.  Milosevich, for all his failings, had it right when he opposed the Empire.  He is gone, and his "successors" have disgraced themselves and their nation with their venality and cowardice.

    We didn't allow anything, we were overran by our enemies and by the 5th column. I just don't want to Russians repeat our mistakes and make their lives as difficult as ours. russia This story with project 22350 reminds me on our mentality and our way of "making things done". That's all. respekt
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:23 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    LMFS wrote:Is the brotherhood between Serbs and Russians so deep that you feel comfortable bashing them for their failures? The Serbian community in the forum are the worse critics of Russian navy from what I see, is this like a family fight or something? respekt

    The Serbs have cucked themselves long ago when they succumbed to EU/NATO and allowed the 5th columnists into power.  The only thing they excel at now is their ability to rest on their knees for extended periods and to service whatever member is inserted into their collective pie-holes by their Overlords in Washington, or the Imperial satraps that are occupying Brussels.  I think the Serbs resent Russia for remaining sovereign and independent and free, all the things they themselves have failed to do.  Russia is an example of what Serbia could have been if they hadn't given in to EU geopolitical mendacity or NATO warmongering.  Milosevich, for all his failings, had it right when he opposed the Empire.  He is gone, and his "successors" have disgraced themselves and their nation with their venality and cowardice.

    Australian writing this is probably one of the top 10 ironies in...well...world...ever.

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