Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Share
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:37 am

    the point is that the modular design will speed up production and development... the new ships will be multirole, but bigger ships will get different radars and sensors from smaller ships, but will have the same weapons in greater numbers.

    They will also have different propulsion arrangements.

    The point is that the software to make everything work can be standardised... the difference will be that the larger vessels will be able to scan greater distances with their larger sensors, but with the C4IR systems even a tiny vessel can have target data for targets well outside its sensor range... like a corvette targeting a ground target 2,000km away as we have seen.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:07 am

    The link posted above has been deleted for the bullshit that it is.... just to quote from the third paragraph:

    The Russian navy is a mess, and it will probably become more of a mess in the future.

    An article that originally appeared in the National Interest.

    This article does not belong in this thread, which is about the Gorshkov.

    It does not belong on this forum.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:09 am

    There are still so much udaloys, slavas and sovremennys to replace, that it doesn't matter if it will be gorshkov or super gorshkov, they simply need to replace these aging ships.



    The ships they will be building now will be in service for the next 3-4 decades so it makes sense to get them right.

    Pleasing fanbois on websites probably does not enter their criteria for what they should or should not do.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11409
    Points : 11888
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:47 am



    Gorshkov




    Kasatonov


    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2049639.html


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11409
    Points : 11888
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:52 pm

    The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov russia

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2450
    Points : 2464
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:14 pm

    George1 wrote:The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov  russia

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html

    lol1 lol1 lol1

    It's pretty much 2018 already. Nice they get one frigate geek
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1139
    Points : 1149
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:09 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    George1 wrote:The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov  russia

    https://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/2050501.html

    lol1 lol1 lol1

    It's pretty much 2018 already. Nice they get one frigate geek

    FFS, yes the delays are a disappointment, but you know full well that this is a completely new design with new sensors & weapons & battle management systems, so why piss and moan about it?  Who gives a flying fuck?  The ship will be accepted when all bugs are worked out,  system integration is in full compliance to spec, and the Navy is FULLY satisfied.   This is a warship, not a shitcan F-35.  Engine supply issues mean they have plenty of time to get her correct and not repeat the installation issues with Kasatanov (eg dodgy radar cabling), so they are doing it right.  Shake her until she fails, then fix her and do it again.  Rinse & repeat until she's sorted, then apply teh lessons to her sisters.

    That's the way to build a warship.  Not by pushing them out to satisfy a bureaucrats schedule and then having to go back and fix the problems on a number of units once they are eventually solved.  Just because the USAF/USN is going to have to rebuild a load of pre-serial F-35s doesn't mean the RuN wants to follow the same 'exceptional" path with the 22350s.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2450
    Points : 2464
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:30 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:FFS, yes the delays are a disappointment, but you know full well that this is a completely new design with new sensors & weapons & battle management systems, so why piss and moan about it?  Who gives a flying fuck?  The ship will be accepted when all bugs are worked out,  system integration is in full compliance to spec, and the Navy is FULLY satisfied.   This is a warship, not a shitcan F-35.  Engine supply issues mean they have plenty of time to get her correct and not repeat the installation issues with Kasatanov (eg dodgy radar cabling), so they are doing it right.  Shake her until she fails, then fix her and do it again.  Rinse & repeat until she's sorted, then apply teh lessons to her sisters.

    That's the way to build a warship.  Not by pushing them out to satisfy a bureaucrats schedule and then having to go back and fix the problems on a number of units once they are eventually solved.  Just because the USAF/USN is going to have to rebuild a load of pre-serial F-35s doesn't mean the RuN wants to follow the same 'exceptional" path with the 22350s.

    Bureaucracy and bad management caused these delays. Same as in the F-35 but on a much smaller scale.
    In both cases the platforms are super capable and promising. In practice, they're very very late and expensive.

    1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
    <insert slow clapping>
    avatar
    ZoA

    Posts : 129
    Points : 135
    Join date : 2017-08-20

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ZoA on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:11 am

    There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

    1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

    2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

    Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

    On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.

    hoom

    Posts : 781
    Points : 779
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:30 am

    The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov
    As someone on Balancer put it 'The final final final final phase of tests' tongue
    I'll believe it when I see a St George cross flying.

    Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.
    On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3651
    Points : 3762
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:53 am

    ZoA wrote:There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

    1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

    2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

    Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

    On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.

    +1000000

    The west is all about cosmetics and illusion. Scratch under the facade and it is ho-hum and rotten.

    Judging by some of the posts there are those that drink the koolaid and think delays are a sign of weakness.
    Because everyone knows that designs are perfect on paper and no real world problems are ever encountered.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1139
    Points : 1149
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:16 am

    hoom wrote:On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.
    Really? In what respect?  Don't tell me - a sandwich toaster has broke an element, and the toilet next to the engine control room doesn't flush.....

    Yeah sure, compared to the LCSs being unable to travel under their own power, or the Zumwalts not having any advanced ammo for their main cannons, I'd call any issues with Severodvinsk and 20380s to be par for the course in any warship.


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1139
    Points : 1149
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:38 am

    KiloGolf wrote:1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
    <insert slow clapping>
    Its not one frigate, its the first completely new series of major Russian surface combatants since the Sovremennys and Udaloys started in the late 70s (I'm ignoring the 11540s as a "false start").  All weapons and systems are new and previously untested, and their production required a complete reboot of industries long neglected and underfunded since 1991.  22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

    Yeah, its taken longer than expected.  So fucking what?  Its not like there are a dozen on the slipways being held up because of redesign work resulting from lead ship technical problems.  Ukrop have caused a 4-5 year delay while replacement engines are developed, so Severnaya don't really have any pressing schedule concerns.  The world won't end if the RuN doesn't get a single frigate in the next six months, so might as well get her right...

    Getting a little sick of your endless NATOstani agitprop BS.
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2450
    Points : 2464
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:03 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

    I understand that they focused on the wrong ship and wrecked their Navy in their process. 11356s could have been inducted since the mid 00s if the political will was there. By now they'd have over a dozen of them, possibly more, not just 3 Grigs and 1 Gorshkov in 2018.

    hoom

    Posts : 781
    Points : 779
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:31 pm

    Really? In what respect?
    Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
    Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1139
    Points : 1149
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:32 pm

    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
    Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.
    Severodvinsk is the lead unit of a class conceived back in Soviet times and construction schedule was delayed for over a decade due to the 90s meltdown....  its been extensively redesigned since, and is altogether a different boat to that originally envisioned.  Saying its "experimental" is incorrect however.  Its a credit to the Russians that they persevered and didn't simply scrap her, and that she handed over 2 years after start of sea trials. BTW the delay in declaring her "combat ready" was more about crew training than issues with the boat or systems. Crews take a year or two to get fully up to speed on a new design boat, and the Severodvinsk is at least a generation ahead of the Akulas.

    Problems with 20380 Redut is AFAIK only related to long range (120km) version of the missile 9M96E2.  The shorter range (40km) variant works fine, and I suspect it became the plan to fit the active ships with those and rollout the 9M96E2s when ready.  That's a perfectly defendable strategy in my book.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11409
    Points : 11888
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:54 pm

    1st Pr.22350 frigate Admiral Gorshkov with Ka-31 AEW&C on its helo deck, underwent a series of tests near the NF's Severomorsk, RuMoD



    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11409
    Points : 11888
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:01 am

    Russia to start sea trials of 2nd Admiral Gorshkov-class multirole frigate next summer

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/974672


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    littlerabbit

    Posts : 31
    Points : 33
    Join date : 2017-07-03
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:50 pm

    What's up with Gorshkov?! They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno
    avatar
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 6636
    Points : 6740
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:14 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:What's up with Gorshkov?!  They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno  

    Forget commissioning, from what they said the other day they don't even plan to order any additional ones before at least 2021.
    avatar
    littlerabbit

    Posts : 31
    Points : 33
    Join date : 2017-07-03
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:39 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    littlerabbit wrote:What's up with Gorshkov?!  They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno  

    Forget commissioning, from what they said the other day they don't even plan to order any additional ones before at least 2021.

    Jesus... Suspect I don't get Russian Navy, at all. No
    avatar
    KiloGolf

    Posts : 2450
    Points : 2464
    Join date : 2015-09-01
    Location : Macedonia, Hellas

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:24 pm

    littlerabbit wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    littlerabbit wrote:What's up with Gorshkov?!  They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno  

    Forget commissioning, from what they said the other day they don't even plan to order any additional ones before at least 2021.

    Jesus... Suspect I don't get Russian Navy, at all. No  

    They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
    That's it till 2025 for RuN. dunno

    hoom

    Posts : 781
    Points : 779
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:40 pm

    What's up with Gorshkov?! They said it will be commissioned in mid December...are there any news?dunno
    No news I've seen since announcement of the final final final final tests in Nov.

    There is this nice pic though
    avatar
    GunshipDemocracy

    Posts : 2463
    Points : 2505
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Age : 76
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:40 am

    KiloGolf wrote:They seem to have a glorified coast guard mentality for anything on the surface with a dash of few cruise missile VLS cells here and there.
    That's it till 2025 for RuN. dunno


    and what mentality they should have taking into account budget/intl situation/timing? I look forward to hearing your say.
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17957
    Points : 18531
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:42 am

    Yes, of course they should lay down fifty of the damn things... of course the company in Russia that will now be making engines for them wont be able to get that number of engines together until 2040 but you can keep them in the slipways and block other ships from being built while you wait...

    Ironically smaller vessels would have smaller propulsion systems easier to make, and bigger vessels will likely have nuke propulsion which is also OK...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Sponsored content

    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sun May 27, 2018 11:49 pm