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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    ZoA

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  ZoA on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:11 am

    There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

    1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

    2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

    Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

    On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:30 am

    The Northern Fleet began the final phase of testing the frigate Admiral Gorshkov
    As someone on Balancer put it 'The final final final final phase of tests' tongue
    I'll believe it when I see a St George cross flying.

    Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.
    On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:53 am

    ZoA wrote:There are 2 ways to conduct see trials.

    1st is rubber-stamping PR show that allows any barley floating junker to enter service. Case in point Zumwalt  trials.

    2nd is genuine trials to verify built ship is actually complaint to contracted specifications. Case in point Gorshkov trials.

    Which country practices which of those two methods is easily discernible by rejection and delay rate during trials. Rejections and delays of ships such as Lada subs and Gorskov frigates indicates Russian government insists on 2nd method of sea trials.

    On  another hand fact that in US and its satellites it is practically unheard of that military ship gets delayed or rejected during trials indicates more what kind of "trials" they actually practice, then it indicates absence or presence of theatrical issues, or compliance to contractual specifications.

    +1000000

    The west is all about cosmetics and illusion. Scratch under the facade and it is ho-hum and rotten.

    Judging by some of the posts there are those that drink the koolaid and think delays are a sign of weakness.
    Because everyone knows that designs are perfect on paper and no real world problems are ever encountered.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:16 am

    hoom wrote:On the other hand Severodvinsk & 20380 have been in service but not fully operational.
    Really? In what respect?  Don't tell me - a sandwich toaster has broke an element, and the toilet next to the engine control room doesn't flush.....

    Yeah sure, compared to the LCSs being unable to travel under their own power, or the Zumwalts not having any advanced ammo for their main cannons, I'd call any issues with Severodvinsk and 20380s to be par for the course in any warship.


    Last edited by Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:38 am

    KiloGolf wrote:1 frigate --> 11 years to induct.
    <insert slow clapping>
    Its not one frigate, its the first completely new series of major Russian surface combatants since the Sovremennys and Udaloys started in the late 70s (I'm ignoring the 11540s as a "false start").  All weapons and systems are new and previously untested, and their production required a complete reboot of industries long neglected and underfunded since 1991.  22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

    Yeah, its taken longer than expected.  So fucking what?  Its not like there are a dozen on the slipways being held up because of redesign work resulting from lead ship technical problems.  Ukrop have caused a 4-5 year delay while replacement engines are developed, so Severnaya don't really have any pressing schedule concerns.  The world won't end if the RuN doesn't get a single frigate in the next six months, so might as well get her right...

    Getting a little sick of your endless NATOstani agitprop BS.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:03 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:22350s are a generation ahead of 11356s. Systems integration and testing is complex and commissioning punchlists will run into thousands of items.  WTF do you not understand about that?

    I understand that they focused on the wrong ship and wrecked their Navy in their process. 11356s could have been inducted since the mid 00s if the political will was there. By now they'd have over a dozen of them, possibly more, not just 3 Grigs and 1 Gorshkov in 2018.
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    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:31 pm

    Really? In what respect?
    Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
    Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:32 pm

    hoom wrote:Severodvinsk was experimental service for several years before being announced combat ready, 20380 has Redut not properly functional.
    Just pointing out Russia hasn't fully avoided the 'put it in service & pretend it actually works' thing either.
    Severodvinsk is the lead unit of a class conceived back in Soviet times and construction schedule was delayed for over a decade due to the 90s meltdown....  its been extensively redesigned since, and is altogether a different boat to that originally envisioned.  Saying its "experimental" is incorrect however.  Its a credit to the Russians that they persevered and didn't simply scrap her, and that she handed over 2 years after start of sea trials. BTW the delay in declaring her "combat ready" was more about crew training than issues with the boat or systems. Crews take a year or two to get fully up to speed on a new design boat, and the Severodvinsk is at least a generation ahead of the Akulas.

    Problems with 20380 Redut is AFAIK only related to long range (120km) version of the missile 9M96E2.  The shorter range (40km) variant works fine, and I suspect it became the plan to fit the active ships with those and rollout the 9M96E2s when ready.  That's a perfectly defendable strategy in my book.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:54 pm

    1st Pr.22350 frigate Admiral Gorshkov with Ka-31 AEW&C on its helo deck, underwent a series of tests near the NF's Severomorsk, RuMoD



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