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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    Isos
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Thu May 05, 2016 2:03 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Mirlo wrote:
    Code:
    The Russian Navy expects to receive six new Project 22350 frigates by 2025

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160504/1039046212/navy-minister-frigate.html#ixzz47gMmbIWZ

    This is a very bad news for the Russian Navy. To me it is demonstrating that there are big difficulties (much more tan openly admitted) in the modernization program. All major ship projects are delayed or at very low production rate or simply stoped. Six ships in nine years is horrible, making that when they enter in service they will be almost obsolete. Honestly I was expecting at leats one per year with a mínimum of 8 to replace the Sovremmeny class.

    If the problem are the gas turbines, why they do not go to china, QC185 gas turbine may be a good choice, at least a stop gap option. But in my opinion the problems are deeper than the gas turbines and lay in the whole concept, something is going wrong with this Project.

    Best regards

    Mirlo


    Pr 22350 will be nearly obsolete in 2025?  You've got rocks in your head...

    What exactly is going wrong other than the usual lengthy integration time required to get all-new technology working together into a robust package that is fit to fight a war?  making sure the ship works as expected before committing to a lengthy serial build. Everything on the Gorshkov is new concept.  new phased array radars, new SAMs and VLS, new CIWS, new battle management systems, new AShM VLS, new artillery, new sonars.....   new fucking everything.

    Include the Ukropistani treachery and delays are hardly unexpected...

    Seriously...

    Even if it gets obsolete, they can easily put new systems in it. Soviet era ships are not easily improvable because each system has specifique design. VLS on Gorshkov can be programmed to lunch any new missile, not the case of Moskit lunchers or P-700 luncher on kirov. Look how many time they need to improve Kirov class.
    Gorshkov is on paire with any modern ship being build in the west or in china or Japan. Don't think NATO has anything better than that ...

    6 ship in 9 years is not because they don't know how to make it but because shipyards need work. They could build them in 2 years like they did during the 70's when they lunched tens of warship in one year (and not corvettes but SNA's, Aircraft carriers, SSGN's...) but then they will don't have work for thousand of men => Economic issues. No one today can make a war against Russia so 9 ships or 20 is not a problem for them.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Militarov on Thu May 05, 2016 3:06 pm

    Mirlo wrote:
    Code:
    The Russian Navy expects to receive six new Project 22350 frigates by 2025

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160504/1039046212/navy-minister-frigate.html#ixzz47gMmbIWZ

    This is a very bad news for the Russian Navy. To me it is demonstrating that there are big difficulties (much more tan openly admitted) in the modernization program. All major ship projects are delayed or at very low production rate or simply stoped. Six ships in nine years is horrible, making that when they enter in service they will be almost obsolete. Honestly I was expecting at leats one per year with a mínimum of 8 to replace the Sovremmeny class.

    If the problem are the gas turbines, why they do not go to china, QC185 gas turbine may be a good choice, at least a stop gap option. But in my opinion the problems are deeper than the gas turbines and lay in the whole concept, something is going wrong with this Project.

    Best regards

    Mirlo


    Arleigh Burke was desiegned in early 80s, with production that started in 1987. and here we are 30 years later, same base design being still built and modernised.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Thu May 05, 2016 10:42 pm

    I would just put 4 or 8 more KH-35 Uran on it. It's a really good anti ship missile that can serve before the Oniks/Kalibr to make the ennemy use some AA missiles. It can also be used against non armed vessels (tanker or thug ...).

    Or the best use they can make of it is use it with Oniks. Lunch 4 Kh-35 wait and lunch 4 oniks which will arrive at the same moment on the target. The ships will target Kh-35 and the fast oniks will have more chances to get through the air defences as the radars opperators will be distract with Uran's.

    Most of the naval battles don't occure at maximum ranges so it is realistic.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat May 07, 2016 11:59 am

    Following the 'progress' of these ships (albeit only for the last few years vs a decade for some...) is incredibly frustrating.

    They are a damn sexeh form/layout with great potential capability.
    While not a match for a Burke, its clearly more efficient capability:displacement than anything else in the West like Horizon/Type 45.

    On the one hand I see the continued Service delays as kind of a response to the extended experimental service of Severodvinsk/Lada & they don't want to take it into service until everything is actually working properly.
    On the other, even a limited capability Gorshkov in service could plug some significant capability gap as eg UK has done with the Type 45s.

    A big concern is the absence of any indication that the Poliment/Redut system is actually working yet, this being arguably the most important system.
    Also Kasatanov seems a worryingly long way short of being able to follow Gorshkov into service unlike Essen which is following Grigorovitch by only about a month.
    The engine issues outrageous as they are don't excuse that lack of progress elsewhere & Kasatanov has engines anyway.


    A thing that has been exercising my mind is what kind of missile loadout you would use: on the one hand you can load a stupid amount of the short range quad pack missiles for max defense against a saturation attack, on the other hand you want to intercept as many as possible at the max range so you'd want to put in lots of the longest range missile, but it may be that the chance of successful intercept at that range is relatively small so you might want to go for more of the medium range missiles instead?
    Does anyone know what sort of ratio Burkes typically use?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 07, 2016 1:40 pm

    Not every target will warrant an Onyx or Klub and a quad launcher for Uran takes up very little space.

    A land attack version could be developed... hell even a drone model could be developed that flys high and scans the sea looking for targets sending back information on what it can detect with its radar...

    In fact you could simply carry the Helo launched version and use that to attack targets from the flank with the main ship based attack coming later with much faster Onyx and then zircon missiles.

    The navy is not as critical to Russia as it is to the west, so it will never have the same priority.

    Neeless to say now that the decision has been made and they have to develop domestic engines I think the future is actually rather bright... once they have them in production they can produce ships rather faster... military and civilian.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:15 pm


    Severomorsk


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:18 am

    Such an elegant profile I love you

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Dima on Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:58 pm

    But not in good hands.

    Repeating....the monopoly of Severnya has to be broken and parallel line(s) need to be started in other shipyards now that there is lot of time due to the delay in M90 turbines.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:48 pm

    Dima wrote:But not in good hands.

    Repeating....the monopoly of Severnya has to be broken and parallel line(s) need to be started in other shipyards now that there is lot of time due to the delay in M90 turbines.

    That's what the US does/did with the AB, but for that to happen there has to be a long-term plan (> 20 years) to induct at least 2 of them per year and split the order on multiple shipyards. PRC seems to have gone the Russian way (1 shipyard) for the first 8 of Type 52D "Aegis-like" destroyers, inducted in record numbers (launching 2-3 per year).

    So it's not only a monopoly issue but shipyard inability to get the right numbers out. It seems Russian shipyards are lacking behind both US and PRC.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 pm








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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:13 am

    Mirlo wrote:
    Code:
    The Russian Navy expects to receive six new Project 22350 frigates by 2025

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/military/20160504/1039046212/navy-minister-frigate.html#ixzz47gMmbIWZ

    This is a very bad news for the Russian Navy. To me it is demonstrating that there are big difficulties (much more tan openly admitted) in the modernization program. All major ship projects are delayed or at very low production rate or simply stoped. Six ships in nine years is horrible, making that when they enter in service they will be almost obsolete. Honestly I was expecting at leats one per year with a mínimum of 8 to replace the Sovremmeny class.

    If the problem are the gas turbines, why they do not go to china, QC185 gas turbine may be a good choice, at least a stop gap option. But in my opinion the problems are deeper than the gas turbines and lay in the whole concept, something is going wrong with this Project.

    Best regards

    Mirlo


    No they made a mistake in the first place by relying on others to produce engines for their ships, if your going to be a first world power you have to be able to make your own engines it was a mistake from the beginning not to make their own and import them from Ukraine.

    Really Ukraine refusing to deliver the engines was a good thing in the long term, cause now they don't need to rely on others for engines. It may seem bad in the short term, but hey better this way.

    Also these ships won't be obsolete anytime soon.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:41 am

    Most of these new ships are module based. Meaning that interchanging them with newer stuff shouldn't be as much as a hassle, so long as it doesn't affect the whole structural layout of the ship.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:12 am

    So looks like no Gorshkov in 2016 cry
    http://bastion-opk.ru/ed-den-pr-vp-160715/ (Google translate)
    the military wants a new budget for rearmament and a half times more than the As" Poliment-Redoute "theme (the new anti-aircraft missile systems to the Navy with 9M96 missiles), as noted by Gulyaev, "has not yet received a positive result of the application of anti-aircraft missiles enterprise development" Torch ", intended to equip the corvettes and frigates of project 20380 22350". He stressed that this fact directly influences the commissioning of the head of the frigate commissioned the project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov", while the president on November 2016 set a deadline of the ship date.

    Similar & more detail (though not sure of reliability of source?) at http://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/07/15/9693095.shtml (also Google translate)
    the Ministry of Defense has suspended the trial for a new rocket ship air defense complex "Poliment-Redoute" due to the fact that the company EKO "Almaz-Antey" can not bring development to the stated specifications. A source in the defense industry said that "rockets fall on the third second.
    "Because of its catastrophic backlog on" Poliment-Redoute ", mainly related to the failure to reach technical characteristics of anti-aircraft guided missiles 9M96, 9M96D, 9M100."

    So they have used all the trial missiles for Gorshkov & 0 successes Shocked
    Apparently all failing in the 3rd second after launch, trials suspended.

    I thought 9M96 was proven for S-400 & the issues with it on 20380 were about lack of radar power, not actually missile side issues? Suspect

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:32 am

    There are dozens of potential problems with navalising a land based system... the claim the missiles were failing after three seconds could be a problem with the missiles, but it also could be a problem with missile guidance failing and the missiles flying into the sea.

    It took quite some time to navalise the TOR system to create Klintok... and there is little question the TOR is a good proven system.

    Interesting that it mentions 9M100 is part of the system too.


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:50 pm

    Interesting. So they used Fakel plant (Torch) to do this project while they specialize in ground based systems all the while Altair plant was the ones who made Shtil, S-300F and Tor for ships. Interesting enough, it states (article) Fakel plant is using old equipment and still sporting soviet posters. So it may be Almaz Antey's poorly maintained facility while they build new ones? Or are the new ones to replace Fakels?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:14 pm

    Judging by reading through, it isn't to do with the missiles I would presume but the failure of the guidance system since if all three types of missiles failed, then it is leading me to believe it is the guidance system is problematic. I understand that this is a very new guidance system to be used on various of future ships, but this isn't good. Although, I would presume that the media may be stating 1 thing but the situation is different altogether, but I doubt that. There is just a possibility that this Poliment-Redeut system is just a problematic system. I hope they get it resolved soon but if not, they should look at alternatives.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  chicken on Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:45 am

    What happens if the problem persists after November?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 23, 2016 5:52 am

    chicken wrote:What happens if the problem persists after November?

    the ship will remain uncommissioned until they work it out, So what 10 years and still not one Gorshkov-class in the navy.

    That's just sad. No excuse for this, this isn't no 90k ton carrier or a 17k Cruiser. They should have had at least 6 in the ranks by now.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:53 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    chicken wrote:What happens if the problem persists after November?

    the ship will remain uncommissioned until they work it out, So what 10 years and still not one Gorshkov-class in the navy.

    That's just sad. No excuse for this, this isn't no 90k ton carrier or a 17k Cruiser. They should have had at least 6 in the ranks by now.

    I would like to see you do better.

    Cry all you want, but such systems are brand new and this was expected.  The ships are there, but the system isn't.  And who's fault is that? Almaz Antey and not the shipyard or anyone else, as they screwed up.  Why bother giving the contract to the department that hasn't the history of building navy equipment when the one that does, didn't get it?  S-300F which is already in service and working fine, doesn't face the same issues.  But that was made by a completely different organization that is now part of Almaz Antey as a whole.  This Redut system is S-400 of the sea, and they gave it to Fakel, the makers of it, while in the past they gave it to Altair who made the S-300F.  So why not hand them S-400F or Redut or whatever?

    This time, it isn't the shipyards fault.  And technically, since Almaz Antey is breaking the contract severely, they should be punished.  IE, they should be sued by the Russian MoD and then move onto alternatives.  You guys can cry and say this is unacceptable but lets also be real here - they wanted a system on a whole new platform doing something that they have not done in a very long time and during times of piss poor spending.  It was only recently were the military is getting the budget, so I highly doubt much money had flowed before all this.

    The ships are there, it is now waiting for the failure that is Poliment-Redut to be actually functioning, if it ever does.  If it doesn't I imagine they will scrap the program altogether and find alternatives, while getting this current ships at least out to sea, even if half assed and using Shtil or something else.

    chicken wrote:What happens if the problem persists after November?

    Continue to waste time and work on the failure that is Poliment Redut, or they might actually do something and demand that the money is transferred to current working systems like S-300F.

    Edit: After reading through this: https://z5h64q92x9.net/proxy_u/ru-en.ru/vpk.name/news/159848_k_byudzhetnoi_bitve_podtyagivayut_zapasnoi_polk.html, I have come to the conclusion that the issue facing such systems is due to management of Almaz Antey. They are not following KPI structure and are still being given "bonuses" even if the are not meeting the demand. Thus, there isn't a drive for success by the company, only though the means of export is there. So as a method, Rogozin is demanding that such structure is enforced and that poor performance will mean jobs are lost.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:08 am

    Just a note: Almaz Antey took over a lot of facilities over the years and has been a very successful company. I may have been a tad bit critical in my previous comments regarding it, but the issue may be due to the subsidiaries that they took over. Fakel plant is apparently old and decrepit, but is the one getting the contract for this. But what is funny, is Fakel is the maker of the S-400 which is one of the most advanced air defense systems in the world and is much feared and in much demand (also has proven itself in various tests of its high success). So the question is, what is happening? Well, who knows. It could be entirely the fire control system of the Poliment Redut that is causing the failures.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  runaway on Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:30 pm

    The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

    It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

    The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:19 am

    runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

    It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

    The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

    They laid the head ship down in 06 even with the engine problems still should have been able to finish six ships problem is they took so much time with the first few by the time the engines became a problem none where finished. They said at first it would be in the ranks by 09. Now I understand yes new ship and all sure but again this isn't a massive warship. its a frigate they have made Icebreakers and submarines with bigger tonnage quicker then this. Yes an Icebreaker isn't a military ship and subs are different also.

    Yes the Engines are a problem, still the rate of construction has been slow since the start. Heck China can make ships of all classes way quicker.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:47 am

    This is a reason why this forums is turning to crap.... once again, new systems not made before. You guys can clearly read English (I hope), the issue is Almaz antey. Not shipyard. Their navy based aad system Poliment Redut is just not working and apparently they broken it down to Fakel plant that makes the S-400 system. As Gary pointed out, when making them for ship, it isn't the same and many problems arise. AA will have to get their facility in order as the ministers made mention of the plants condition and that they were very unimpressed. At same time, the authorities made it very well known they are forcing the KPI system on many state companies, including AA.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:51 am

    runaway wrote:The problem is the engines as we all know, the npo saturn is developing new ones in a hurry. So we have 4 ships being constructed with hulls ready. As soon as the new engines are ready we will see the ships rapidly coming into service.

    It would make sense to continue building gregorovich frigates as the new destroyer is 10-15 years away and sovrymennys and udaloys is soon completely obselete.

    The russian warship industri would need a sucess after many failures and broken timelines.

    Since they are already waiting for engines they might as well just focus on Gorshkovs because Grigorevich uses same engines so it's delay one way or the other. Better to go with new stuff. And without engines they might as well use that time to iron out missile problems on lead ship. One ship more or less over six month period is nothing.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:36 am

    sepheronx wrote:This is a reason why this forums is turning to crap....  once again, new systems not made before. You guys can clearly read English (I hope), the issue is Almaz antey. Not shipyard.  Their navy based aad system Poliment Redut is just not working and apparently they broken it down to Fakel plant that makes the S-400 system.  As Gary pointed out, when making them for ship, it isn't the same and many problems arise.  AA will have to get their facility in order as the ministers made mention of the plants condition and that they were very unimpressed.  At same time, the authorities made it very well known they are forcing the KPI system on many state companies, including AA.

    Yes new systems, however new systems alone should not cause such a massive delay, I understand when making something new there will be problems you will need to iron out first. That's a given still these issue should be resolved in a more timely manner. It's not like they never dealt with such issues before.

    There is problem with the shipbuilding industry that cannot be ignored, I am sure once they actually start commissioning these things at a regular pace they will be fine frigates, Russia makes quality stuff despite what most people think. It's just a shame on the progress.

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