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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    KomissarBojanchev
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm

    Shouldn't we blame almaz antey for not fixing the redut
    on time?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Isos on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:39 pm

    If I'm right, the naval versions of land based air systems are done by a different design bureau. Maybe that's the problem. Like I said before It's the implimentation of system that has issues not the building part. The second ship of the class is ready when it comes to its construction. It's not really shipbuilders that are bad, it's the engineers of these systems.

    Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to what's done abroad. It should be build very fast. Kilos and Grigorovitch frigates are done normally. I don't know but they probably will do the next ones faster once they resolve all the issues. They really need Gorshkov frigates, they will be the backbone of the Russian Navy, at least they should build those which will replace sovremenys.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:53 pm

    Isos wrote:...........
    Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to what's done abroad. It should be build very fast. Kilos and Grigorovitch frigates are done normally. I don't know but they probably will do the next ones faster once they resolve all the issues. They really need Gorshkov frigates, they will be the backbone of the Russian Navy, at least they should build those which will replace sovremenys.

    Kilo class is proof that they can get things done when they have their sh*t together.

    As for Gorshkovs they need to build them in several shipyards. Like Karakurts.

    If it is that important platform then give it priority.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:16 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:...........
    Gorshkov is a small frigate compare to what's done abroad. It should be build very fast. Kilos and Grigorovitch frigates are done normally. I don't know but they probably will do the next ones faster once they resolve all the issues. They really need Gorshkov frigates, they will be the backbone of the Russian Navy, at least they should build those which will replace sovremenys.

    Kilo class is proof that they can get things done when they have their sh*t together.

    As for Gorshkovs they need to build them in several shipyards. Like Karakurts.

    If it is that important platform then give it priority.

    Well said Papa,
    The bolded part is the key factor.

    Some members here think that the new frigates (Gorshkovs) are the most important thing for the Navy.
    They are not.
    The Navy's priorities are different from the priorities of some forum armchair generals. In addition, priorities change from time to time depending on geopolitics, finances, military objectives etc.

    A few years ago, the Black sea fleet had only one old submarine (Alrosa) which was most of the time in repairs and overhauls. Priority was for the 6 new Kilos which were built quickly. Same applies for the Grigorovich frigates which were being built in decent timeframes until the Ukrainian sourced engine problem occurred. Same can be said about the Buyan missile ships.
    Currently the priorities seem to be the Karakurts and more recently the minesweepers.

    Sorry, the Gorshkov and Steregushy classes are not that high on the priority list. The Ivan Gren is also not an eagerly waited ship as long as there are enough Ropuchas and Alligators for the Syrian express.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:29 am

    I have no doubt it will be a good ship, just saying this timeframe is beyond absurd.

    It shouldn't take them 11 years to sort out all these bugs, hell they still haven't gotten the Redut to work fully.

    Russia has a major problem with it's ship building industry in getting things done on time.

    Given the context no it isn't an absurd time frame.

    First of all for the period of the 1990s there were no orders, no contracts... all the infrastructure was rubbish and obsolete... the workers likely earned a living driving taxi cabs or other such work.

    When you get a contract to build a ship the first thing you have to do is totally retool the factory and then the next thing you have to do is hire an entire workforce and train them on the new equipment.

    Even after doing that you now have the pleasure of building ships the Soviets and Russians never built before. They are of a totally new design paradigm... ie not just a new class of vessel but a new concept in ship building with a modular multirole design with weapons and sensors and systems for roles no previous Russian vessel was ever capable of.

    More to the point the new systems are rather advanced... Poliment Redut has an active phased array radar of significant size this has to be integrated and operate with dozens of other new sensors and systems... you can just put them in the ship and expect them to work perfectly.

    Next you have problems with propulsion... even if everything else was perfect they could not have gotten the ship operational without propulsion system and they are only just ready now as a Russian made product.

    Then you have issues with the main gun and the SAM system... but because this vessel will be modular and multirole it does not matter if it takes 15 years to get it into service because once all the problems are sorted out they can make dozens of them, and they should be able to make them fairly quickly once everything is working.

    Shouldn't we blame almaz antey for not fixing the redut
    on time?

    I would say yes if the process of navalising a SAM system simply consisted of taking the wheels and tracks off the land vehicle and inserting the whole vehicle hull into the deck of a ship with the sensors mounted up somewhere high to have good fields of view.

    The actual task of navalising anything is difficult and complex... a land battery of S-350 vehicles don't operate within 50m of very very powerful AESA radars of different types and also within 50m of Pantsir and other radar based systems and other jamming and decoy systems and of course several radar directed guns of various calibres.

    The Seawolf missile was able to hit a 114mm shell in flight but missed an incoming Exocet missile because the radar the Seawolf used to track targets was jammed by the satellite communications system the Sheffield used to communicate with London... crap like that can cost you a ship in combat...

    The Gorshkov might just be a frigate but it carries the C4IR system that all other Russian vessels will be carrying leading to a fleet of AEGIS class type vessels that will be very potent and able to operate as a networked team.

    They really need Gorshkov frigates, they will be the backbone of the Russian Navy, at least they should build those which will replace sovremenys.

    They have already stated that Udaloy class vessels are going to be refitted with Uran missiles... not much use for an ASW destroyer like the Udaloys were, but better than nothing for an ASh Destroyer to replace the Sovremmenys... which makes sense as their propulsion is likely more reliable.

    The Russian Navy does not need to be a huge fleet so there is nothing critical about getting hundreds of ships into service any time soon.



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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:07 am

    Via Balancer forum, Gorshkov is in dry dock with a bunch of scaffolding up around superstructure.

    Just a bit of maintenance/spruce up or maybe some upgrades?

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Honesroc on Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:26 pm

    hoom wrote:Via Balancer forum, Gorshkov is in dry dock with a bunch of scaffolding up around superstructure.

    Just a bit of maintenance/spruce up or maybe some upgrades?

    Electrical wiring repair, from what I've heard
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:55 am

    Wouldn't it be funny if it was failing tests all this time just due to shonky wiring in the superstructure unshaven
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:33 am

    Well it is a new system... it could be as simple as that... but then why would it only effect the long range missiles?


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:15 pm

    Russia's 2nd Project 22350 Gorshkov-class Frigate Adm. Kasatonov to Start Sea Trials this Summer

    The trials of the first serial-produced Project 22350 frigate Admiral Kasatonov will start in the summer of 2017, Former Commander of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet Admiral Igor Kasatonov said in an interview with RIA Novosti news agency.


    Admiral Kasatonov, the second Project 22350 Frigate of the Russia Navy at fitting out stage in St Petersburg (picture from 12/2016). Picture: Alexey Akentev

    "The second Project 22350 frigate Admiral Kasatonov will start undergoing trials in the summer of 2017. The ship is planned to be delivered to the Russian Navy in late 2017 - early 2018," Kasatonov said.

    As President of Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told TASS earlier, the Project 22350 lead frigate Admiral Gorshkov will be delivered to the Navy in 2017. A decision on the delivery time has already been made, he added.

    The Project 22350 frigate is designed to fight surface ships and submarines and repel air attacks both independently and within a formation.

    The Project 22350 frigate is flush-decked and has three-island superstructures, a tower mast and a steel tube. The ship has a lower radar signature, which makes it virtually invisible for the enemy’s radars.

    The Project 22350 frigate has a displacement of 4,550 tons. The capacity of its diesel-gas-turbine power plant is 65,000 hp.

    The ship is armed with the new A-192 130mm artillery gun and anti-ship, antisubmarine and air defense missile systems, including the Kalibr (NATO reporting name: SS-N-27 Sizzler) and Redut-Poliment complexes. The ship is capable of carrying the Kamov Ka-27 (Helix) helicopter or its version.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/january-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4821-russia-s-2nd-project-22350-gorshkov-class-frigate-adm-kasatonov-to-start-sea-trials-this-summer.html



    I don't know it for sure, but I think that the ideal production rate of the frigate would be at 1, maybe 2 ships per year.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:20 am

    First Project 22350 Frigate Admiral Gorshkov to be Delivered to Russian Navy in Late July

    The lead frigate of Project 22350 (NATO reporting name: Admiral Gorshkov-class), the Admiral Gorshkov, will be handed over to the Russian Navy in late July, President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Alexei Rakhmanov told journalists.


    The first ship of the new Russian Navy frigate project 22350 class "Admiral Gorshkov" at full speed

    "New deadline has been fixed as test trials of armaments have been completed. I believe it will be strictly observed this time as by the end of February we shall complete the inspection and return to the test range with weapons which have to get the lettering necessary for inclusion in the fire power of the warship," he said and specified the new deadline is the end of July.

    The Admiral Gorshkov had its keel laid in early 2006 and was floated in the autumn of 2010. In November 2014 it sailed out for the first test trials. The second frigate of the series, the Admiral Kasatonov was floated in 2014. The floating of the third warship, the Admiral Golovko is scheduled for 2017.

    The Project 22350 frigate displaces 4,500 tons and accelerate to 29 knots. She carries, inter alia, the Oniks (SS-N-26 Strobile) and Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missile systems and Poliment-Redut surface-to-air missile system.

    Source: Arrow http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2017/january-2017-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/4843-first-project-22350-frigate-admiral-gorshkov-to-be-delivered-to-russian-navy-in-late-july.html



    I have seen some reports that indicates that the first two frigates of this class will be delivered to the Black Sea Fleet.

    Why? Question dunno

    The BSF is already receiving Project 11356 ("Admiral Grigorovich"-class) frigates, why would they need Gorshkovs?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:53 pm

    Then they are wrong these ships are for the NF and PF's.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:11 pm

    Benya wrote:
    I have seen some reports that indicates that the first two frigates of this class will be delivered to the Black Sea Fleet.

    Why? Question  dunno

    The BSF is already receiving Project 11356 ("Admiral Grigorovich"-class) frigates, why would they need Gorshkovs?

    maybe you didn't see correctly. Project 11356 were ordered especially for Black Sea Fleet


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:29 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Then they are wrong these ships are for the NF and PF's.

    Indeed, BTW I don't understand why Milkavkaz put them to the BSF's ORBAT list.

    George1 wrote:maybe you didn't see correctly. Project 11356 were ordered especially for Black Sea Fleet

    Not especially, but exclusively (and for export).

    For both of you, here is what I saw: (the 2nd and 3rd ship names on the list, each of them has blue color)

    Arrow http://www.milkavkaz.net/2015/12/chernomorskij-flot.html

    Of course, we can argue about the credibility of the source, but I would not recommend to start an argument about that, since it would derail the topic.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:00 am

    Of course, we can argue about the credibility of the source, but I would not recommend to start an argument about that, since it would derail the topic.


    Then what would you argue if not the credibility of the source?
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Benya on Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:17 am

    franco wrote:Of course, we can argue about the credibility of the source, but I would not recommend to start an argument about that, since it would derail the topic.


    Then what would you argue if not the credibility of the source?

    Nothing. I only wanted to conclude my talk with Seig and George about where those two Gorshkovs will be delivered to.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:45 pm

    If the source cannot be questioned then what is there to discuss?


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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:59 am

    Far has I am aware the first two are going tot he NF fleet with the next two going to etheir the NF or PF.

    Russia said they wanted to build a large amount of these but in recent years hey seemed to scale back how many they want.

    The current number is around 16?

    Which would mean eight for both fleets.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:00 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Far has I am aware the first two are going tot he NF fleet with the next two going to etheir the NF or PF.

    Russia said they wanted to build a large amount of these but in recent years hey seemed to scale back how many they want.

    The current number is around 16?

    Which would mean eight for both fleets.

    I don't think they are really scaling back anything. They need frigates and Gorshkov is it.

    More likely due to engine issues and other delays, ones that are ordered after these first 16 or whatever will be Gorshkov v2.0.

    Steregushi and Derski class situation, only frigate sized. Same number of vessels in class, different iteration of model.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  franco on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:23 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Far has I am aware the first two are going tot he NF fleet with the next two going to etheir the NF or PF.

    Russia said they wanted to build a large amount of these but in recent years hey seemed to scale back how many they want.

    The current number is around 16?

    Which would mean eight for both fleets.

    There are only 6 on order presently. Hopefully more will follow.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:59 pm

    franco wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Far has I am aware the first two are going tot he NF fleet with the next two going to etheir the NF or PF.

    Russia said they wanted to build a large amount of these but in recent years hey seemed to scale back how many they want.

    The current number is around 16?

    Which would mean eight for both fleets.

    There are only 6 on order presently. Hopefully more will follow.

    This is planned not on order this could change of course. I remember them saying they want 20's before then downscaled the number.

    In my opinion, they need at least 10 per major fleet.

    If they have any interest in the Asian region they will need even more then that
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:26 am

    ones that are ordered after these first 16 or whatever will be Gorshkov v2.0.

    Steregushi and Derski class situation
    Yeah gonna be interesting whether they go for a relatively minor change or significantly different.
    Hopefully whatever the difference it'll be without the massive delays of Gorshkov.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:37 am

    hoom wrote:
    ones that are ordered after these first 16 or whatever will be Gorshkov v2.0.

    Steregushi and Derski class situation
    Yeah gonna be interesting whether they go for a relatively minor change or significantly different.
    Hopefully whatever the difference it'll be without the massive delays of Gorshkov.

    They first need to deliver couple of batches of Gorshkovs before any updates are on the table so we are talking about at least decade from now before new iteration comes into equation.
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:58 am

    Didn't stop them with 20385 -> 20386 dunno
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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:27 am

    So on the topic of upgraded 22350:
    In a report about Salyut http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1773651.html


    This 'pyramid' concept has been seen before


    Easy to write it off as just a sketch to highlight the rough locations/scale of bits of their systems & it may very well be just that eg most of the pics on http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1449376.html

    Even then, there is a concept similar to the 'pyramid' 22350


    And somehow the 'pyramid' version really feels 'right' to me

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