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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:04 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.

    And not a single new one ordered since.

    ...because of a deliberate go-slow due to changing requirements, lack of GT engines, and prolonged commissioning of all new integrated weapons & sensors & comms & battle management etc etc

    Surface navy is simply not a priority for Russia and it shows. Subs are the priority, and 8x Borei and 7x Yasen sink the lions share of the procurement funds. Stop crying about it, and stop acting like its a huge problem.

    I don't mind them going all in on the subs, in fact i say they should go for double digits of Yasens and twice as many Boreis

    But they still need something on the surface that's not nearing expiration date so they should either get double digit number of frigates or really go nuts with corvettes (they have good platform lineup there already)

    But they need to start doing something
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:06 am

    hoom wrote:
    ...because of a deliberate go-slow due to changing requirements, lack of GT engines, and prolonged commissioning of all new integrated weapons & sensors & comms & battle management etc etc
    That.
    Gorshkov has been a classic case of concurrency hell (exacerbated by the engines bit) & its sensible IMO to hold off on new construction until that is sorted.
    Its a shocker how long its taken to get sorted but still no point building more when stuff remains broken.

    The system has been working for a bit now, since October, and it was 1 missile type from 1 daughter company (Furke).
    Furke is the navalised version of Pantsir-S1 radar as used on the 20380, its fundamentally underpowered for controlling 9M96 but otherwise unrelated to Gorshkov.
    Unless you mean the Furke-4 on Gorshkov? AFAIK thats different frequency, different tech & used as Search radar only, not related to actual firing of the Redut/9M96.
    If its the Furke-4 which has issues it'd certainly delay Acceptance but we'd surely have official statements blaming the Furke rather than blaming 9M96/Poliment?  Suspect


    I see 22350M as a sensible compromise between incredibly expensive Lider that would presumably also have huge risk of Concurrency Hell & actually fixing 22350.
    Big Concurrency Hell risk still but much less so than Lider would have & presumably would leverage bits of 22350 which actually work.

    I had the name wrong, meant to say Fakel plant that makes the missile itself. It apparently was either between the missile or the fire control radar. Apparently it's been dealt with hence why they are pushing development.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:20 am

    Fair enough.
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:13 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Kimppis wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    walle83 wrote:.....

    Six years in construction, and still a long way to go.


    And not a single new one ordered since.

    Well, it seems the plan is to have 6 in total of them by around 2025, that is what Shoigu said, etc., so they actually aren't in a hurry, from that POV anyway.

    Aren't they planing to stop the production for the super gorshkov ? That would be nice. But it is more likely that they stop the production because of money.

    3 in he north and 3 in the pacific is already good compare to what they have now. At least it replace the sovromenys. And they have new corvettes and grigorovich.

    Also after 6 produced, the shipyard workers will be used to building them and they will go faster for the super gorshkov which keep the same design. Same also for the weapons which will be in serial production and well tested so there won't be issues with it.

    Yes, probably. I was talking about 4 standard Gorshkovs + 2 Super-Gorshkovs = 6.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:17 pm

    "Gorshkovs" will receive robot assistants

    Surface and underwater drones will increase the combat capabilities of the Admiral Series frigates

    https://iz.ru/697285/sergei-valchenko-nikolai-surkov/gorshkovy-poluchat-robotov-pomoshchnikov

    The newest Russian frigates of the far sea zone of Project 22350 and 22350M will receive robot assistants. These ships will be equipped with surface and underwater drones. Robots will be used for reconnaissance and inspection of swimming equipment, working on the bottom, studying the hydrology of the sea. According to experts, drones will repeatedly increase the efficiency of frigates and turn them into multi-functional warships.

    As Izvestia was told in the Navy Commander-in-Chief, the decision to equip the frigates of Project 22350 and 22350M with robotic complexes has already been made. Now the military and shipbuilders specify the number and the name of the UAVs, which will be based on the newest warships.






    Peŕrier wrote:Ok, very last off topic post.

    Moral grounds are and have always been central in the world's history.


    how did you get to thsi point? it is you ridea or you read somewhere about it?


    Peŕrier wrote:

    Particularly at maintaining hegemony, you could acquire hegemony by force only, but in the long run you won't maintain it by force only.

    Being accepted as the better, or the less worst dominant  player, gives a huge boost to the chances of maintaining hegemony.


    of course not! it is much cheaper to build world or fake news (TV TF1,CNN,BBC & co) and NGOs so people believe west is moral and good. Not sucking blood and wealth of other nations.
    That's precisely what USA and their mignons UK/France are doing for years after IIww




    Peŕrier wrote:
    By the way, Hitler did his fatal error attacking Soviet Union in 1941 with the worst winter in decades coming in a few months.
    One or two years of rearmament would have done little to nothing to Red army, its weakness being in the official's cadre that survived Stalin's purges.



    And what if Hitler might easier win  if no purges took place? Purges were for a reason. Was it cruel yes, but conditions were extreme too.

    1941 was worst in decades? so previous 2-3 were light ? Interesting so other winters were OK?
    Meteorological data would clarify otherwise I take as" word of mouth" not a fact.




    Peŕrier wrote:

    To get different results, it would have taken some thousands better trained officers, that unfortunately had disappeared in the purges.


    Like Vlasov right? Fighting arm in arm with French comrades form SS Charlemagne?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:11 am

    One or two years of rearmament would have done little to nothing to Red army, its weakness being in the official's cadre that survived Stalin's purges.
    Totally offtopic but you really don't think there would be a difference in combat ability of an army with Officers in position for 2yrs vs 2weeks/2mths? Many of them were so bad the Stavka had to put out a general order to tell officers to use Artillery to soften up an enemy before sending in infantry.
    Entirely an own-goal by Stalin no question.

    Also Red Army would have had a whole heap of new gear able to easily defeat Tigers etc.
    A bunch of equipment was developed based on intelligence of 80mm+ armored tanks was entering service or just about to go into production when Barbarossa started, cancelled or put on back-burner because actually too powerful against what Hitler invaded with & only looked at again after Kursk when it became clear there would be more than just a few Tigers. / Off Topic

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:39 am

    Even two years are barely enough to train a junior lieutenant.
    Actuaĺly, they are not enough even to have a war ready junior lieutenant.

    But anyway, the problem behind the purges was that they first erased any meaningful staff from divisional level upwards, and second and worse, they erased the whole of the Tukhachevsky's school officers, leaving the way open for Budyonny and his theories, that unfortunately were outdated and fallen far from understanding the real laws of mechanized war.

    No number of T-34, KV-1, Mig-1 or whatever would have spared the Red Army any of the disasters suffered in 1941 up to summer 1942, because Red Army simply lacked competent leaders from divisional level upwards, and was trained and structured along wrong theories.

    It was only facing the dire reality of autumn/winter 1941 that the STAVKA recognized something was deeply wrong with all of the Red Army organization and leadership, and it took other two years, until summer 1943, to reach near parity on the tactical level against Germany. Even in 1942, the offensive operations conducted by the Red Army turned out in strategic failures because the frontline commands were not up the tasks given them by the STAVKA.

    The first strategic victory came only with Stalingrad in the winter between 1942 and 1943, and it was a blatant error on the part of OKW: without the stubborness of Hitler and the lack of decisional freedom from the Heer's generals, there would not have been even Stalingrad, because the first days after the soviet offensive started it would have stiĺl been possible to retreat both the sixt german army and the nearby rumanian and italian armies suffering just reasonable losses.

    So much for the lack of competent officers, and the long and painfull process to form a new generation from scratch.

    Project Canada

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Project Canada on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:12 am



    Admiral Gorshkov" broke the cruiser diesel

    Marching diesel of the head frigate project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" failed. Mil.Press FlotProm was informed about this by a source in the Navy familiar with the situation.

    According to him, the ship, which is now continuing state tests, returned to the "Northern Shipyard" on one engine after the breakdown that occurred on December 23, 2017. The source did not give any other details.
    The 10D49 unit produced by the Kolomna plant is the propulsion engine of one of the two diesel-gas turbine units M55R. According to the source of the publication in the military-industrial complex, with the afterburner gas turbine engine and reducer of Ukrainian production, everything is in order.

    Specialists near Moscow enterprises are repairing the diesel in the engine room. This Mil.Press FlotProm told a source in the structure of "Transmashholding", which includes the Kolomna plant. He stressed that the repair work is carried out in parts, the "Gorshkov" building is not planned to be cut.

    Separate parts of the engine 10D49 are sent to Kolomna to carry out an inspection and repair, and, if necessary, a replacement. It is also necessary to send parts of the crankshaft to the factory.

    "The profile commission has already drafted an act on the causes of engine failure 10D49," Mil.Press FlotProm source said. "It is too early to speak about the reasons for the breakdown, this information will be announced in mid-February."
    Evgeny Lerman, adviser to the director of PJSC "Zvezda", suggested in a conversation with a correspondent of Mil.Press FlotProm that the causes of the accident could be a factory marriage or operational error. According to him, the gearboxes of the "Star" production will be delivered to the next frigates of the series - along with gas turbine engines produced by NPO "Saturn".
    The engineer of the Nikolayev enterprise Zorya-Mashproekt told the publication on condition of anonymity that his company officially does not contact the Russian side. According to the employee of the Ukrainian plant, there may be unofficial contacts.

    Mil.Press FlotProm on Wednesday, February 7, sent editorial inquiries to the Kolomensky plant and Severnaya Verf about the situation with the Gorshkov march engine.

    On Monday, February 12, the press service of the Northern Shipyard reported that the issue should be addressed to the diesel engine manufacturer.

    The day after the accident, on December 25, Ilya Zhitomirsky, Director of the Information Policy and Corporate Communications Department of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (UCI), told Mil.Press FlotProm that the transfer of the ship was postponed to 2018. According to him, this is agreed with the customer.

    On February 2, 2018, USC president Alexei Rakhmanov said that if the test schedule was complied with, "Gorshkov" would be handed over to the fleet in August.


    "Admiral Gorshkov" is the main frigate of the project 22350, which is being built at the "Severnaya Verf" in St. Petersburg. On February 1, it was 12 years since its foundation. Initially, the ship planned to transfer the fleet in 2011. However, the frigate was first put on trial only in November 2014.

    In December 2014 it became known that the gas turbine engine of the ship needed serious repairs. Nevertheless, at the Severnaya Verf shipyard, any problems with ship equipment were denied. At the end of April 2015 Mil.Press FlotProm found out that repairs of the burned out engine of the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" will cost 135 million rubles. In May 2016, the ship continued testing in the Northern Fleet. He wanted to put into operation in November 2016, but moved this event to the first half of 2017.

    In March 2017, Deputy Defense Minister Yuriy Borisov said that the delivery of Admiral Gorshkov was delayed due to the untimely performance by the Almaz-Antei concern of development work on the theme "Polymet-Redut". The frigates of project 22350 will be the first ships equipped with this system, which is the union of all air defense weapons on board. In addition to the "Redut" anti-aircraft system (with 9M96, 9M96D and, in the long term, 9M100), a single artillery complex "Palash", intended for short-range air defense, as well as a 130 mm artillery A-192M, was included in the single control loop.

    https://defence.ru/article/na-fregate-admiral-gorshkov-slomalsya-marshevii-dizel/
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:35 am

    So another 2-3 months of delay...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:36 am

    Just another thing to add to the long list of challenges that this ship is creating.  I guess its rather good that it is going through this teething since it helps solve the issues for long term.  Sucks that it prevents the ship being comissioned in an appropriate time.

    So one engine failed out of the 2 engines.  The one failed engine has broken components???  Translation sucks big time.  Inquiry my midpoint of this month for conclusion while engine is at manufacturer for repair.

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:So another 2-3 months of delay...

    Well, being that its a brand new line of ships with using technology that is rather new in Russian production or even pre production, is the norm these days. Mean time, I would purchase more Grigorovich class ships using the Russian made M90FR engines. Unless they are dead certain that after they gone through all the horrible teething of this ship class, that they can then start production immediately for the other vessels to be built.


    Last edited by miketheterrible on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:38 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Just another thing to add to the long list of challenges that this ship is creating.  I guess its rather good that it is going through this teething since it helps solve the issues for long term.  Sucks that it prevents the ship being comissioned in an appropriate time.

    So one engine failed out of the 2 engines.  The one failed engine has broken components???  Translation sucks big time.  Inquiry my midpoint of this month for conclusion while engine is at manufacturer for repair.

    Let me guess Ukrainian production?



    Peŕrier wrote: Even two years are barely enough to train a junior lieutenant.
    Actuaĺly, they are not enough even to have a war ready junior lieutenant.

    Then how magical in two years RA moved forward? Zhukov from scratch?  If not Hitler Germans would first kick France down then Spain and then UK. And then probably not attack USSR but focus on US. And  werent French and Brits ready in 1940 to bomb Baku from Iran?


    BTW how many of those competent officers would be happy to make a coup against Stalin? destroying Soviet statehood and letting Hitler / Hirohito and Turks win and exterminate Russian population?
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:41 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Just another thing to add to the long list of challenges that this ship is creating.  I guess its rather good that it is going through this teething since it helps solve the issues for long term.  Sucks that it prevents the ship being comissioned in an appropriate time.

    So one engine failed out of the 2 engines.  The one failed engine has broken components???  Translation sucks big time.  Inquiry my midpoint of this month for conclusion while engine is at manufacturer for repair.

    Let me guess Ukrainian production?

    Not sure, the translation really sucks so its hard to determine.

    But this goes into same category that Russia was facing with their smaller ships now too. I believe the engines that Buyan's were to get were the Chinese engines, but they found that the quality of the Chinese engines are rather crap, so they have to now wait for their own to be fully completed and tested.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:58 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Not sure, the translation really sucks so its hard to determine.


    I've just checked. Nope it is Russian made .


    miketheterrible wrote:
    But this goes into same category that Russia was facing with their smaller ships now too.  I believe the engines that Buyan's were to get were the Chinese engines, but they found that the quality of the Chinese engines are rather crap, so they have to now wait for their own to be fully completed and tested.

    Chinese diesels were not foreseen to work in such conditions. But in every case: this is just a short delay before having proven and rugged solution.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:02 am

    The engine is Russian made, but it was created in 2010 for this particular ship and thus has been around for 8 years. The engine does use some Ukrainian parts as there was no issues at the time of its creation.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:56 am

    Engine is Kolomna 10D49 http://www.kolomnadiesel.com/catalog/detail.php?ID=61
    There was rumor of a broken engine on Balancer at the time, they seemed to think it was one of the Gas Turbines again but only more recently suggested the diesel.
    Reading that article I suspect they got most of the story from Balancer, asked some questions & got minimal actual answer but enough to run with it.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:16 am

    Progress of the construction of frigates pr. 22350 (issue 3)

    It is not far off that time when the Russian Navy, one by one, will receive two new multipurpose surface ships of the far sea zone of a quite decent displacement (5,400 tons full), in no way inferior to the best foreign analogues and personifying the pinnacle of scientific and technical progress in the field of naval weapons . Pre-holiday mood is somewhat overshadowed by the fact that the time spent by these ships on the slipway, in completion and testing, by the time of handover to the fleet will be about 12.5 and 9 years, while with the due diligence of key participants in the process the Andreevsky flag could be raised on the flagpoles of all four frigates under construction, project 22350 before 2014, which is likely to go down in history as the year of the beginning of the Second Cold War.

    "Admiral Gorshkov"

    According to the information received from the head of USC A. Rakhmanov and the general director of the Northern shipyard I. Ponomarev, the fate of the main ship of the series should be as follows. On 03.02.2018 the commission finished, which understood the reasons for the unsuccessful launches of the Polimen-Redut SAM. A list of the necessary modifications of the complex was determined, which would be completed by the end of March, after which test firing will be conducted (ref. 1). Currently, the frigate is in the CB (from December 29, 2017 - reference 2), where it is preparing for a two-month period, I would like to believe - really final, the stage of state tests scheduled for April-May. The working deadline for the order is June (reference 3), Rakhmanov's forecast is more cautious - the end of summer. After the transfer of the Navy "Admiral Gorshkov" "will be included in one of the compounds of the surface ships of the Northern Fleet" (ref. 4).

    Note. It is rumored that during the interflot transition from the North to St. Petersburg on the "Gorshkov" one of the main engines failed, most likely - the 10D49 march diesel produced by the Kolomna plant (since there is no special need for the use of the afterburner gas turbine at the transition). Let's hope either that this is only a rumor, or to promptly fix a malfunction simultaneously with the development of "Polymment Reduta."


    "Admiral Kasatonov"

    The second ship of the series is almost ready, but the 98% of the technical readiness, named by the director general of the CB, most likely refer to the order as a whole, minus the SAM, for such a serious product even "psychologically" weighs more than 2%. It is clear that the unfounded "Police-Redut" restrains the surrender not only of "Gorshkov", but also "Kasatonov", so the testing of the latter is planned in two stages. First (after the crew is occupied by the frigate in February), the GEC, the electric power industry and the general ship systems will be tested at the ZHI, and after the acceptance of Gorshkov and the completion of the whole complex of works on installation, commissioning and testing of the RTV (radio-technical weapon) Kasatonov, his tests will be continued (Ref. 3). As for the timing of the transfer of the order to the fleet, the roles have changed - Ponomarev showed caution, having designated only the first phase of the ZHI in 2018, Rakhmanov, on the other hand, expressed the hope that the second corps will remain in the delivery program this year (ref. 5).

    Concerning the place of service of the first serial frigate, avenue 22350, there is almost complete certainty that, like the head frigate, it will go to the North, since on 30.10.2017 the commander of the Northern Fleet, Vice-Admiral N. Yevmenov, stated that "today the Northern Fleet is building crews for the newest ships of the class "frigate" and "corvette" (ref. 6) .After the "frigate", then (as now) only "Kasatonov" (with the "corvette") could be implied, since both delivery orders with high degree of readiness, "Thundering" and "Loud", promised by the Pacific Fleet - reference Cool.


    "Admiral Golovko"

    In his interview of 05.02.2018 I. Ponomarev, in fact, evaded the answer to the question when it is planned to transfer the fleet "Golovko" and "Isakov", replacing it with a phrase of a vague-misty property (ref. 3). The general director of the Northern shipyard can be understood that it is unlikely that the public would react with the same understanding to the frank answer, despite the fact that the current head of the SV does not bear personal responsibility for the situation with frigates pr. 22350, on the contrary, with all his might trying to straighten it and, more addition, make a shameful factory candy (the only thing that can be put to him in reproach - the promise to hand over the third building in 2019 - reference 9).

    Nevertheless, although not always, but in this particular case, the bitter truth is better than ignorance, so I'll venture to designate the terms for the third and fourth frigates for Ponomaryov, and at the same time - to adjust my own construction schedule (reference 11), in which there are also inaccuracies. So, the Achilles' heel "Golovko" is no longer brought by the method of brainstorming "Polimen-Redut", and DGTA M55R, the first of which (for the third case) should be put by the ODC-Saturn in 2018 (ref. 12). If Saturn fulfills its obligations, in 2019 it will not be the transfer of the "Golovko" to the customer, but, at best, its launching. Taking into account the statistics for the three ships, prospect 11356 (to 22350, unfortunately, there is no such), the third frigate will spend at least 2 years in completion and testing. Thus, "Admiral Golovko" under the St. Andrew's flag, we will see no earlier than 2021.


    "Admiral Isakov"

    Strangely enough, according to Isakov, there is much more detailed information than on Golovko, which once again speaks about the accidental and unsystematic nature of military and technical information falling into open access. So, from the quite inopportunely decided to leave the blogosphere colleague alexeyvvo (which I regret, I'm not the only one), the terms of delivery of DGTA M55R for left and right rotation - July and August 2018 (reference 13) became known, although in the current purchasing documentation there are no such dates (may have been postponed to 2019, since the delivery of four units for two orders in the first year of their serial production can not be called an easy task). In turn, the resource sudostroenie.info reported on the agreement between the Northern Shipyard and the Baltic Shipyard about the manufacture of the propeller shaft and the steering system components for Isakov before the end of 2019 (ref. 14 from the filing of flotprom.ru).

    The delivery time of one propeller shaft (on the other, presumably, there is a separate contract), which is an integral part of the GEM, indirectly indicates a shift to the right and the supply of DGTA. As a result, the installation of the power plant can only be carried out in 2020, the descent of the water order - in 2020-2021, the transfer of the Navy - in 2022-2023.

    Note. In the photo taken in the shipyard of the Northern shipyard in January of this year, it is clear that the formation of the hull even of the "Admiral Golovko" is still far from complete (doors, latsports, foundations, etc.) have not been installed, and at the "Admiral Isakov" there is no nasal superstructure (only the helicopter hangar and the fences of the Zak "Palash").

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/183400.html
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:48 am

    Golovko and Isakov launched in 2021-23? So much for them being rapidly built after the gorshkov is comissioned.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:16 am

    Note. It is rumored that during the interflot transition from the North to St. Petersburg on the "Gorshkov" one of the main engines failed
    So the reason Gorshkov was in the North Sea is confirmed as North -> Baltic transfer (and therefore would have been nowhere near UK territorial waters)
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:19 am

    So they figured out on the second of this month.th what caused the failure of the long g range missile. Wonder what it was exactly?
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    New article

    Post  runaway on Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:13 pm

    I found a new article about Gorshkov frigates :

    The Admiral Gorshkov, lead ship of the new Project 22350 series of frigates, will be commissioned in August, with Admiral-series vessels expected to become the backbone of the Russian Navy's ocean-going presence over the next decades. Military observers Andrei Kotz and Viktor Murakhovsky outline what capabilities the advanced vessels will offer.

    The Admiral Gorshkov began its construction at Russia's Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg all the way back in 2006. At that time, it was the first large surface vessel to begin construction since the collapse of the Soviet Union, an event which temporarily threw Russian shipbuilders (and the military industry as a whole) into disarray.

    Project 22350 gave shipbuilders the challenging task of developing a fundamentally new frigate, fitted with the latest 21st century technologies, many of them never used by the Navy before.

    As RIA Novosti military observer Andrei Kotz recalled, the Admiral Gorshkov was designed with universality in mind, with the "capability to combat surface ships and submarines with equal effectiveness, attack land-based targets with high-precision weapons, resist aircraft of the probable enemy, carry out reconnaissance by taking advantage of its low visibility characteristics, and much more."

    The ambitious nature of the project has not been without its problems, the most serious among them being delays to the Admiral Gorshkov's commissioning. The timeframe has been pushed back several times, and the vessel is now expected to be adopted by the Navy in August.
    In the meantime, Navy command remains confident about the promising vessels and their capabilities. In 2016, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu confirmed that the Russian Navy would commission six Project 22350 frigates by 2025. Before that, the Navy said it hoped to receive over a dozen of the Admiral-series vessels in the near future for service in the Arctic, the Atlantic, and the Mediterranean.


    Speaking to RIA Novosti, Viktor Murakhovsky, editor-in-chief of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, said that the Admiral Gorshkov is presently the most technologically sophisticated, modern and impregnable surface ship in Russia's arsenal.

    The ship "effectively serves as a research institute," the observer noted. "Since 2006, the Admiral Gorshkov has seen the testing of virtually all of the Navy's latest technologies, from electronic equipment to anti-aircraft missile systems and artillery mounts."

    According to Murakhovsky, some of the systems tested on the Admiral Gorshkov were so new that they were still in the experimental design phase of development. Therefore, he noted, it's only natural that a ship like this could not be put together with haste.
    "But when it is finally completed, the Navy will be strengthened very considerably," the observer stressed.

    The Admiral Gorshkov's main strike power is provided by its 16 vertical launch system Kalibr/Oniks cruise missile-equipped cell launchers, with air defense assured via 32 Polimet-Redut seaborne missile complex cells. Close-quarters defense consists of two Palash close-in support guns. ASW defense is covered by four Packet-NK torpedo tubes. Finally, a 130mm A-192M naval gun firing 45 rounds per minute provides shore bombardment support. The ship's weapons systems will be controlled by a new digital onboard information and control system, complemented by cutting edge radio-electronic systems to keep tabs on approaching surface ships and submarines.

    In effect, Murakhovsky explained, the Russian super-frigate is "a floating computer, capable of solving many tasks virtually without human intervention. The vessel is [also] integrated into the control system of the surface action group, the fleet as a whole and the global information and reconnaissance system being formed by Russia, which includes monitoring of the seas and oceans."

    For all its complexity, the Admiral Gorshkov is a relatively fast ship, traveling up to 30 knots per hour, with a range of close to 5,000 nautical miles at 14 knots p/h cruising speed. In autonomous navigation, the 5,400 ton vessel's 180-210 sailors and officers can remain at sea for about a month before needing to resupply.

    To date, four Project 22350 ships, including the Admiral Gorshkov, the Admiral Kasatonov, the Admiral Golovko and the Admiral Isakov, are under construction. The first of the three have been launched and are undergoing trials, fitting out or the final stages of construction work, and are expected to be delivered before 2020. At least four more ships have been ordered.

    Severnaya Verf also has plans to build an upgraded version of the Project 22350 design, known as the 23500M. Little officially confirmed information on that project is available, except that it will have an increased displacement of up to 8,000 tons, meaning more space for weaponry, electronics and radar equipment.

    According to Murakhovsky, The Russian Navy will require 10-12 Project 22350 ships total to effectively carry out the tasks set for by Russia's naval doctrine.
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:48 pm

    runaway wrote:I found a new article about Gorshkov frigates :

    The Admiral Gorshkov, lead ship of the new Project 22350 series of frigates, will be commissioned in August, with Admiral-series vessels expected to become the backbone of the Russian Navy's ocean-going presence over the next decades. Military observers Andrei Kotz and Viktor Murakhovsky outline what capabilities the advanced vessels will offer.

    The Admiral Gorshkov began its construction at Russia's Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg all the way back in 2006. At that time, it was the first large surface vessel to begin construction since the collapse of the Soviet Union, an event which temporarily threw Russian shipbuilders (and the military industry as a whole) into disarray.

    Project 22350 gave shipbuilders the challenging task of developing a fundamentally new frigate, fitted with the latest 21st century technologies, many of them never used by the Navy before.

    As RIA Novosti military observer Andrei Kotz recalled, the Admiral Gorshkov was designed with universality in mind, with the "capability to combat surface ships and submarines with equal effectiveness, attack land-based targets with high-precision weapons, resist aircraft of the probable enemy, carry out reconnaissance by taking advantage of its low visibility characteristics, and much more."

    The ambitious nature of the project has not been without its problems, the most serious among them being delays to the Admiral Gorshkov's commissioning. The timeframe has been pushed back several times, and the vessel is now expected to be adopted by the Navy in August.
    In the meantime, Navy command remains confident about the promising vessels and their capabilities. In 2016, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu confirmed that the Russian Navy would commission six Project 22350 frigates by 2025. Before that, the Navy said it hoped to receive over a dozen of the Admiral-series vessels in the near future for service in the Arctic, the Atlantic, and the Mediterranean.


    Speaking to RIA Novosti, Viktor Murakhovsky, editor-in-chief of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, said that the Admiral Gorshkov is presently the most technologically sophisticated, modern and impregnable surface ship in Russia's arsenal.

    The ship "effectively serves as a research institute," the observer noted. "Since 2006, the Admiral Gorshkov has seen the testing of virtually all of the Navy's latest technologies, from electronic equipment to anti-aircraft missile systems and artillery mounts."

    According to Murakhovsky, some of the systems tested on the Admiral Gorshkov were so new that they were still in the experimental design phase of development. Therefore, he noted, it's only natural that a ship like this could not be put together with haste.
    "But when it is finally completed, the Navy will be strengthened very considerably," the observer stressed.

    The Admiral Gorshkov's main strike power is provided by its 16 vertical launch system Kalibr/Oniks cruise missile-equipped cell launchers, with air defense assured via 32 Polimet-Redut seaborne missile complex cells. Close-quarters defense consists of two Palash close-in support guns. ASW defense is covered by four Packet-NK torpedo tubes. Finally, a 130mm A-192M naval gun firing 45 rounds per minute provides shore bombardment support. The ship's weapons systems will be controlled by a new digital onboard information and control system, complemented by cutting edge radio-electronic systems to keep tabs on approaching surface ships and submarines.

    In effect, Murakhovsky explained, the Russian super-frigate is "a floating computer, capable of solving many tasks virtually without human intervention. The vessel is [also] integrated into the control system of the surface action group, the fleet as a whole and the global information and reconnaissance system being formed by Russia, which includes monitoring of the seas and oceans."

    For all its complexity, the Admiral Gorshkov is a relatively fast ship, traveling up to 30 knots per hour, with a range of close to 5,000 nautical miles at 14 knots p/h cruising speed. In autonomous navigation, the 5,400 ton vessel's 180-210 sailors and officers can remain at sea for about a month before needing to resupply.

    To date, four Project 22350 ships, including the Admiral Gorshkov, the Admiral Kasatonov, the Admiral Golovko and the Admiral Isakov, are under construction. The first of the three have been launched and are undergoing trials, fitting out or the final stages of construction work, and are expected to be delivered before 2020. At least four more ships have been ordered.

    Severnaya Verf also has plans to build an upgraded version of the Project 22350 design, known as the 23500M. Little officially confirmed information on that project is available, except that it will have an increased displacement of up to 8,000 tons, meaning more space for weaponry, electronics and radar equipment.

    According to Murakhovsky, The Russian Navy will require 10-12 Project 22350 ships total to effectively carry out the tasks set for by Russia's naval doctrine.

    Care to quote source? Interesting that it claims at least 4 more units have been ordered, but why the uncertainty in number...

    +1 excellent summary, and it should be a nice smack in teeth for all the nay-sayers who whined like whipped dogs due to their fan-boy fetishes not being met within their preferred timescale.

    The 22350 are a light year ahead of any naval vessel Russia/USSR has ever built, and a prolonged gestation is unavoidable.  Problems will be encountered, and it will take time to resolve them as is the case with all complex cutting-edge weapons systems.  Throwing money at them in an attempt to speed progress is inefficient and Russia has a lot of other valuable projects in need of rubles.'

    In time we'll look back on this difficult birthing process and these issues will just be a footnote again st what I am sure will be a very successful and important design.  Until then,  5th columnist blowhards and eternal pessimists will have their fun...
    avatar
    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  littlerabbit on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:03 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    runaway wrote:I found a new article about Gorshkov frigates :

    The Admiral Gorshkov, lead ship of the new Project 22350 series of frigates, will be commissioned in August, with Admiral-series vessels expected to become the backbone of the Russian Navy's ocean-going presence over the next decades. Military observers Andrei Kotz and Viktor Murakhovsky outline what capabilities the advanced vessels will offer.

    The Admiral Gorshkov began its construction at Russia's Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg all the way back in 2006. At that time, it was the first large surface vessel to begin construction since the collapse of the Soviet Union, an event which temporarily threw Russian shipbuilders (and the military industry as a whole) into disarray.

    Project 22350 gave shipbuilders the challenging task of developing a fundamentally new frigate, fitted with the latest 21st century technologies, many of them never used by the Navy before.

    As RIA Novosti military observer Andrei Kotz recalled, the Admiral Gorshkov was designed with universality in mind, with the "capability to combat surface ships and submarines with equal effectiveness, attack land-based targets with high-precision weapons, resist aircraft of the probable enemy, carry out reconnaissance by taking advantage of its low visibility characteristics, and much more."

    The ambitious nature of the project has not been without its problems, the most serious among them being delays to the Admiral Gorshkov's commissioning. The timeframe has been pushed back several times, and the vessel is now expected to be adopted by the Navy in August.
    In the meantime, Navy command remains confident about the promising vessels and their capabilities. In 2016, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu confirmed that the Russian Navy would commission six Project 22350 frigates by 2025. Before that, the Navy said it hoped to receive over a dozen of the Admiral-series vessels in the near future for service in the Arctic, the Atlantic, and the Mediterranean.


    Speaking to RIA Novosti, Viktor Murakhovsky, editor-in-chief of Arsenal of the Fatherland magazine, said that the Admiral Gorshkov is presently the most technologically sophisticated, modern and impregnable surface ship in Russia's arsenal.

    The ship "effectively serves as a research institute," the observer noted. "Since 2006, the Admiral Gorshkov has seen the testing of virtually all of the Navy's latest technologies, from electronic equipment to anti-aircraft missile systems and artillery mounts."

    According to Murakhovsky, some of the systems tested on the Admiral Gorshkov were so new that they were still in the experimental design phase of development. Therefore, he noted, it's only natural that a ship like this could not be put together with haste.
    "But when it is finally completed, the Navy will be strengthened very considerably," the observer stressed.

    The Admiral Gorshkov's main strike power is provided by its 16 vertical launch system Kalibr/Oniks cruise missile-equipped cell launchers, with air defense assured via 32 Polimet-Redut seaborne missile complex cells. Close-quarters defense consists of two Palash close-in support guns. ASW defense is covered by four Packet-NK torpedo tubes. Finally, a 130mm A-192M naval gun firing 45 rounds per minute provides shore bombardment support. The ship's weapons systems will be controlled by a new digital onboard information and control system, complemented by cutting edge radio-electronic systems to keep tabs on approaching surface ships and submarines.

    In effect, Murakhovsky explained, the Russian super-frigate is "a floating computer, capable of solving many tasks virtually without human intervention. The vessel is [also] integrated into the control system of the surface action group, the fleet as a whole and the global information and reconnaissance system being formed by Russia, which includes monitoring of the seas and oceans."

    For all its complexity, the Admiral Gorshkov is a relatively fast ship, traveling up to 30 knots per hour, with a range of close to 5,000 nautical miles at 14 knots p/h cruising speed. In autonomous navigation, the 5,400 ton vessel's 180-210 sailors and officers can remain at sea for about a month before needing to resupply.

    To date, four Project 22350 ships, including the Admiral Gorshkov, the Admiral Kasatonov, the Admiral Golovko and the Admiral Isakov, are under construction. The first of the three have been launched and are undergoing trials, fitting out or the final stages of construction work, and are expected to be delivered before 2020. At least four more ships have been ordered.

    Severnaya Verf also has plans to build an upgraded version of the Project 22350 design, known as the 23500M. Little officially confirmed information on that project is available, except that it will have an increased displacement of up to 8,000 tons, meaning more space for weaponry, electronics and radar equipment.

    According to Murakhovsky, The Russian Navy will require 10-12 Project 22350 ships total to effectively carry out the tasks set for by Russia's naval doctrine.

    Care to quote source?  Interesting that it claims at least 4 more units have been ordered, but why the uncertainty in number...

    +1 excellent summary, and it should be a nice smack in teeth for all the nay-sayers who whined like whipped dogs due to their fan-boy fetishes not being met within their preferred timescale.

    The 22350 are a light year ahead of any naval vessel Russia/USSR has ever built, and a prolonged gestation is unavoidable.  Problems will be encountered, and it will take time to resolve them as is the case with all complex cutting-edge weapons systems.  Throwing money at them in an attempt to speed progress is inefficient and Russia has a lot of other valuable projects in need of rubles.'

    In time we'll look back on this difficult birthing process and these issues will just be a footnote again st what I am sure will be a very successful and important design.  Until then,  5th columnist blowhards and eternal pessimists will have their fun...

    I've just found the source... https://sputniknews.com/military/201802171061765871-project-22350-series-frigates-analysis/
    avatar
    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:39 am

    littlerabbit wrote:I've just found the source... https://sputniknews.com/military/201802171061765871-project-22350-series-frigates-analysis/

    Oh.... Sputnik..... That's a disappointment. Suspect

    Meh, could still be true, but not really consistent with 6 in service by 2025.
    avatar
    George1

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  George1 on Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:30 am

    Frigate "Admiral Kasatonov" prepared for the installation of the crew

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3121816.html

    hoom

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:54 pm

    Apparently Gorshkov engine is fixed https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C14/
    Done with engine in-situ, apparently a connecting rod issue.

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    Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov

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