The Situation in the Ukraine. #4

zg18 wrote:First images of new BTR-4E taken out of service in Slavyansk

I don't understand the outcome of that attack..
The steel cage protect against RPGs shots somehow? sometimes? or it totally useless?

On my last note, here's a great read:

The EU is no friend of Ukraine

Not since the end of the Cold War has there been so much media and political conformity on an international issue as there is over the Ukraine crisis. The story we are presented with is this: In the years following the end of the Cold War, Ukraine has been struggling to be free of Moscow’s yoke and to join the European Union. Thus when President Viktor Yanukovich (a Moscow stooge) rejected the EU Association Treaty in November 2013, the country’s pro-democratic forces could stand it no longer and they launched a struggle for the heart and soul of Ukraine. The current crisis, we have been told, is all about Ukraine attempting to make an historic break from Moscow’s clutches.

To say that Western coverage of the Ukraine crisis has been light on facts and heavy on anti-Russian propaganda does not begin to do justice to the extraordinary levels of misinformation. In fact, the reality of the history of the relationship between Ukraine and the EU is almost the exact opposite to the claims being made in the mainstream media. Far from Ukraine being at the centre of a battle between West and East, actually the EU has consistently rejected Ukraine’s requests for membership. In place of membership, the EU has attempted to manage its relationship with Ukraine through various agreements and frameworks, all of which have been premised upon the refusal of the EU to accept Ukraine as a member. Most recently, the relationship has been managed through the European Neighbourhood Programme (ENP)/Eastern Partnership (EP) Programme. It was Ukraine’s rejection of an EP association agreement (which had been negotiated over several years and again was explicitly not a stepping stone to EU membership) that sparked the current crisis.

Ukraine was the first former Soviet Bloc state to sign a Partnership and Cooperation Agreement (PAC) with the EU in 1994 (though it was not ratified until 1998). In 1998, Leonid Kuchma, who was then president of Ukraine, formally stated that Ukraine sought EU membership. The context for this request was the beginning of the accession process for the ‘Luxembourg Six’, the first wave of candidate countries agreed at the 1997 Luxembourg European Council: Poland, Hungary, Cyprus, Slovenia, Estonia and the Czech Republic. In 1999, the EU announced another wave of candidate countries and opened accession negotiations in 2000 with Bulgaria, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Malta. Ukraine’s aspirations for membership were rejected, but the EU formally welcomed Ukraine’s ‘European choice’ .

Read the whole thing

I'll reply to some other posts later, but just a quick thought here.

Even during Cold War 1.0 (as I think it should now be called), had America EVER committed such atrocities as its committing today against Russians on their OWN LAND?

The only thing I can think of is creating Al Qaeda and causing various bombings.
But I don't really recall it ever using US citizens to kill Russians civillian or military.

Bathhouse Barry is openly talking about giving the Nazis military tech.

These seriously changes the dynamic of things. I wonder how far Russia will consider this.
Surely, the "Mexico issue" is being worked on. After all "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".
Likewise, was there something more to the Chechen bombing Boston marathon?
A foretaste of what Russia can do in America? Remember the US has 15 MILLION Muslims, I believe.

And some international support:

macedonian wrote:
The effin' hypocrisy!!! Seems, when America has your back, you can afford to kill civilians, lie, steal, and cheat...and still come out clean in western media.
Can't wait for the chickens to come home to roost!

Yep.. Shows the level of Sub Humans they are.. shows absolutely no care for civilians being bombed in hospitals or schools , just today was reported another Hospital was bombed with 25 civilians killed.    and not a single protest or condemnation of the west or UN or so called human rights groups with the combat plane attack to lugansk that confirmed by several cameras videos..

This is why i will welcome Russia to take the war directly to United States. a couple of warships destroyed or US military bases bombed will teach them they have gone too far with Russia.

On other news is reported that there are German Paratroopers friendly to Russia will be joining the conflict to help Donetsk Forces.

http://rusvesna.su/english/1401056501

Firebird wrote:I'll reply to some other posts later, but just a quick thought here.

Even during Cold War 1.0 (as I think it should now be called), had America EVER committed such atrocities as its committing today against Russians on their OWN LAND?

The only thing I can think of is creating Al Qaeda and causing various bombings.
But I don't really recall it ever using US citizens to kill Russians civillian or military.

Bathhouse Barry is openly talking about giving the Nazis military tech.

These seriously changes the dynamic of things. I wonder how far Russia will consider this.
Surely, the "Mexico issue" is being worked on. After all "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".
Likewise, was there something more to the Chechen bombing Boston marathon?
A foretaste of what Russia can do in America? Remember the US has 15 MILLION Muslims, I believe.

No offense, but I think it's naive to think that Obama started this.
This isn't something that happens in a day, a year, or even a decade...
In order for this to work, they had to take out many other countries first - to come to Russia (and eventually China).
In the string of: attacks, coup d'etat's, military interventions, occupations, etc. - Russia and China are the grand prize.

Let me illustrate: Who is supporting Russia at the moment? I mean REALLY supporting it?
Other than Venezuela and China, and the lukewarm support it gets from 'traditional allies' like India and Serbia, NOBODY is supportive of Russia.
Had Russia been attacked merely twenty years ago, there'd be a MASSIVE resistance towards the US. Now that the US bought or intimidated every single nation on this earth, there's virtually no support for Russia. Nobody stood up at the UN to say: "This is America's imperialistic policy which targets Russia in order to pave its way to Global Supremacy"! No, the best support was that many abstained from voting the US sponsored resolution at the UN. Nobody was being really vocal in supporting Russia... Even Montenegro want's to join NATO now! I have yet to meet a Montenegrin who doesn't see Russia as his brother state. But the Government is pushing for NATO and EU accession...

So, no - it wasn't Obama's decision. It's rather something that has been in the works for quite a long time now...only unfolding at present.

Vann7 wrote:

macedonian wrote:
The effin' hypocrisy!!! Seems, when America has your back, you can afford to kill civilians, lie, steal, and cheat...and still come out clean in western media.
Can't wait for the chickens to come home to roost!

Yep.. Shows the level of Sub Humans they are.. shows absolutely no care for civilians being bombed in hospitals or schools , just today was reported another Hospital was bombed with 25 civilians killed.    and not a single protest or condemnation of the west or UN or so called human rights groups with the combat plane attack to lugansk that confirmed by several cameras videos..

This is why i will welcome Russia to take the war directly to United States. a couple of warships destroyed  or US military bases bombed will teach them they have gone too far with Russia.

On other news is reported that there are German Paratroopers friendly to Russia will be joining the conflict to help Donetsk Forces.

http://rusvesna.su/english/1401056501

I actually quite agree on some of that.
As I've said many times before on these boards, Russia is always in reactive mode.
It now needs to rethink that policy. It needs to become proactive. Take the fight to the enemy, think two steps ahead of him.
I think it's obvious by now that the US will never EVER rest before beating Russia into submission. The gloves are off now, and only a naive person would think that Russia could ever be a partner to the US. Not after this much provocation in diplomatic circles and in the media...not to mention the situation on the ground!

It's time for Russia to think 'KGB'. Plausible deniability. Covert actions. Gloves off. Exploit weaknesses.

Or be prepared to lose. It's as simple as that.

This vis–à–vis the US:



  

 

Turchinov   


I dunno, if not for military gear, one may even think that it's just the average "bus station fest"  

Oh and one other thing I forgot to add...

I'd be expecting that if something [more] significant happens, it will happen after Friday...when 'the allies' celebrate D-day in Normandy.
Putin will be there, as will Poroshenko, Obama, etc.
So either during, or right after - something *might* happen. Sorry for making it seem like some uneducated guess, but it seems that whenever something distracting (like the Olympics for example) is on, a 'certain' side takes advantage and the situation worsens.
This time I'm hoping Russia takes the next step...(again, might just be wishful thinking on my part).

I actually quite agree on some of that.
As I've said many times before on these boards, Russia is always in reactive mode.
It now needs to rethink that policy. It needs to become proactive. Take the fight to the enemy, think two steps ahead of him.
I think it's obvious by now that the US will never EVER rest before beating Russia into submission. The gloves are off now, and only a naive person would think that Russia could ever be a partner to the US. Not after this much provocation in diplomatic circles and in the media...not to mention the situation on the ground!

It's time for Russia to think 'KGB'. Plausible deniability. Covert actions. Gloves off. Exploit weaknesses.

Or be prepared to lose. It's as simple as that.

Indeed when you have a person that already is attacking your family ,you need to fight back.. being polite will not work ,will only teach the
criminal that is ok for them to continue with their actions. So the war in Ukraine is a continuation of Syria war ,taking the war directly to Russian people at the borders of Russia. So the attack already happened with the coup in kiev and placing nazis in Power. Even Former US advisors call what US have done a total insolence on US side provoking a war in Russia backyard..  So what Russia should do.. if Things continue ,civilians being killed and US praising that..

Then Putin should.

1)Talk to Shangai organization and try to get China and IRAN and or India and Kasaskistan a huge army with tanks and combat jets and a number of troops 100k-200k near Ukraine borders and practice the invasion of Ukraine and anything they will do.. if possible include Belarus. and fill the black sea with Chinnese warships near the american warships.
2)Warn in PUblic Obama that if he continue sponsoring Ukraine Army war crimes against civilians ,that It will force Russia to invade to restore order and declare war not only against kiev but also a limited war against United States and attack its warships in the black sea and its military bases near Russia and draw a line for NATO that they cannot pass.  (this will create Big headlines in the world and make nervous the EU )  At this point they the EU will interfere and pressure Ukraine to end the military operation and US will be forced to back down its proxy war against Russia. and seek dialogue.  But if Obama raise its hostilities and continue with its arrogance..while civilians continue to be Bombed in Ukraine indiscriminately.
3) Give an ultimatum to Obama that if in 48 hours he does not end its support for the Ukraine illegal war ,and pressure them to stop ,that Russia will order an invasion but also declare a regional war against United states..and that will order to start sinking american warships..
and bombing any US military bases near Russia.. and that will not allow any american warship in the black sea.

At this point ,the EU will not want things to continue ,and will pressure US to stop its hostilities towards Russia and pressure Ukraine to Stop its army operations totally and retreat.

If ,The Kenyan president after so much warnings continue with its exeptionalism and its rhetoric of how US is superior and world leader and fully backup Ukraine bombing on civilians.. Russia should start the war..  after a couple of american warships destroyed and a couple of American military bases being hit with Iskanders in Poland and in Romania,you can be sure the world will stop and a major unrest will happen in US cities with millions rallies and generals demanding to impeach Obama for the killing of americans.. in the other hand in Russia ,civilians will backup Putin for the defense of Russian people being killed in Ukraine.  Im 100% sure.. that no american general ,will want a full scale nuclear war with Russia ,specially when they are NOT defending their land and they created the problems in Ukraine ,by financing a coup and now support its army to be used against pro Russian civilians. So They will back down.. they have no choice . Russia risk some military base attacks with Russian casualties but so do US will lose americans in their military bases or warships in the fight.having China and India and Iran armies in Russia side will also pressure NATO to back down ,knowing is a war they cannot win.

Being passive while your people is killed at the border is not good... NATO seems determined to continue fueling by praising kiev actions and giving them weapons and financial support so they continue the war no matter how many civilians killed . Of course Putin can totally continue playing diplomacy games with USA ,pretending there is not an undeclared war against Russia by the US elite. And instead playing proxy wars as they have done in Syria.. arming their allies while NATO arms the other side..and that can work , it worked with Syria..  but the cost in civilians lives will be too high .

Turchynov and Avakov in ATO HQ



Reminds me of this.....

Cypriot people call for the end of Donbass slaughter. *Byzantium Rising*:

Turchynov face speaks 1000 words

Aaaaand now, for something completely different:



/Comic relief

      

macedonian wrote:Aaaaand now, for something completely different:



/Comic relief

      

Women weights, i did not expect anything else.

Werewolf wrote:Women weights, i did not expect anything else.

Homegirl be trippin dawg!

Sorry, couldn't resist....I know, I know, I'm waaay out of line here...but it's funny!

  

Nuff said aboout nazi in Uranian government

Check this Polish mercenary thugs joined the Ukraine Army to fight anti-kiev forces..



So much for Anti-kiev forces being foreigners ..i bet poroshenko says nothing about hundreds
of Americans and Polish and NATO mercenaries supporting them.. in their criminal war in the eastern Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/voice_of_true/status/472013459224530945/photo/1


Anyone can now show that photo to the Rusophobics in others forums , that have been saying only foreigners fight
in the separatist forces.

Oh, there's quite a few more...





...and they have their political support...




...than there's this parallel...





...but there's also some people in the world that are aware of how things stand in Ukraine at the moment






...So all hope in humanity is not lost...well - not just yet!

Vann7 wrote:Check this Polish mercenary thugs joined the Ukraine Army to fight anti-kiev forces..



So much for Anti-kiev forces being foreigners ..i bet poroshenko says nothing about hundreds
of Americans and Polish and NATO mercenaries supporting them.. in their criminal war in the eastern Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/voice_of_true/status/472013459224530945/photo/1


Anyone can now show that photo to the  Rusophobics in others forums , that have been saying only foreigners fight
in the separatist forces.

Check in more closer. Look at the rank on the guy from the very left. DPR colors, orange black orange. They have balaclavas - not sure if RS wear these too but might be.

Also the BDRM is clearly the one I saw on another pic as captured one by DPR.

https://twitter.com/voice_of_true/status/472013459224530945/photo/1
How is that possible I missed them while they still were gathering in Poland?!

Sorry, I know it is against the rules to not post first in the introduction section. I will do that just right now.

Also: http://www.newsbalt.ru/detail/?ID=30740
"Few Polish volunteers led by Bartosh Becker arrived in Donetsk to help DPR"

fragmachine wrote:Check in more closer. Look at the rank on the guy from the very left. DPR colors, orange black orange. They have balaclavas - not sure if RS wear these too but might be.

Also the BDRM is clearly the one I saw on another pic as captured one by DPR.

https://twitter.com/voice_of_true/status/472013459224530945/photo/1
How is that possible I missed them while they still were gathering in Poland?!

Sorry, I know it is against the rules to not post first in the introduction section. I will do that just right now.

Also: http://www.newsbalt.ru/detail/?ID=30740
"Few Polish volunteers led by Bartosh Becker arrived in Donetsk to help DPR"

Yes, makes sense. If you examine closely, the guy does indeed have the St.George's ribbon...who the hell knows - propaganda, photoshopping is used by both sides...
Anyway, your links are great. Helps one remember that there are good and bad PEOPLE, not good or bad nations.
Great stuff. Thanks!

I find it very disturbing to see more and more mercenaries coming to another country and fighting there, regardless of which side they take. The entire Ukraine situation becomes more like Syria where again US and EU slaves are training (In baltic states like Estonia and also Poland) fascists, arming them and sending them into Ukraine.

Those terrorists in Kiew along with CIA,Blackwater and German,British terror mercenaries will not only target civilians in Ukraine they will try and they already did to get on Russian soil to get the ultimate provocation, since those provocations don't work on Ukrainian soil.


I think russia should use massive scale of FSB/Speznas to eliminate heads of those terror groups, kill those scum in Kiew which are illegaly and war criminals and in 2 years nobody will give a shit about using force anymore, nobody today remembers the Chinese bloody beat down of US backed "revolution" and most people already have forgoten that Lybia was artificially created by US.

Russia has to lose more when they are waiting, they should not use the military but only special forces and make it quick as possible and as an example that US has gone to far bring every american terrorist they find in ukraine to russian court and publicly trial them with death sentences for war crimes.


Since the US gone completley mad and rogue and pushing their Agenda with ABM and NATO basis forward, Russia should leave the INF treaty and immidiatley deploy IRBMs in Central America, push quicker forward the BRICSA and ban the Dollar to be used in all BRICS countries iregardless of domestic or exchange currency between countries, pressure on US hegemony and if they still go further pressure all countries around Russia with at least 3000km radius around russias boarders to close all NATO bases, if not followed (which they will not do), install each year more and more nuclear weapons around US, deploy space based nuclear weapons to counter americas ABM shield in Europe which there only to destroy the M.A.D (Mutual Assured Destruction) which secures this damn planet from Nuclear genocide.

If they pressure so insanly to the surrounding of Russia with NATO terrorists than Russia has to deploy space based nuclear weapons to assure that the M.A.D will not be destroyed, we know that USA threw nuclear weapons on Japan not to save any lives they did that to demosntrate their military strentgh to the Soviet Union and the world, and they would do that tousand times more if no other Nuclear Power would come to light and those bastards will use Nuclear weapons against russia as soon as they think that they have any kind of chance after the MAD is no more.

For all the talk of No Fly Zone vs. no NFZ, I think what's worse is the ongoing gas talks with Kiev...
The whole point of those is that Russia will then be obligated to sell at that price, while Kiev prosecutes it's civil war.
Kiev already broke it's contract, and the new regime hasn't tried to fix the situation or comply with the contract,
Russia should just say the contract has been broken and refuse to negotiate until there is peace in Ukraine... and Russian Crimea is recognized.
Pravy Sektor is openly saying they expect the war to continue for SEVERAL YEARS, enabling them in any way is itself a crime.
If the Novorus Defence Forces are adequately armed with SAMs then Russia doesn't necessarily need to enforce a NFZ anyways.
(although I would say destroying heavy weapons like Grads and other artillery would be a logical part of an NFZ action by Russia)

re: gas price itself, Kiev and EU seem to think Kiev is entitled to "average EU gas price".
That price is for countries which pay their bills on time, don't disrupt transit, and are not illegal coups that wage war vs. their own citizens.
I.e. the average EU price is for GOOD RELIABLE LEGITIMATE CUSTOMERS.
An unreliable, illegitimate, human rights violating regime like in Kiev is the opposite of those,
and should obviously get worse prices, IF they can buy in the first place. (I don't think they should be allowed to at any price in current conditions)
If they change their ways and can demonstrate that in actions, i.e. complying with Geneva accords,
according legitimacy to those who reject the Maidan coup, etc, then they can START to get access to "good guy prices",
provisionally, and staged to require CONTINUAL demonstrance of good will and good governance, i.e. break their word again and the deal is off.

re: relations with EU, Russia should simply insist that they make a public accounting for their actions/inactions to date, acknowledging all facts however inconvenient they may be. That includes accouting for all EU members' cooperation with Svoboda and other fascist groups (and with other groups cooperating with those groups), and how that is a gross violation of the EU Parliament's own admonition against such cooperation. Specifically going into the training in insurrectionary warfare in Poland, Baltics, and role of figures like Paribuy, as well as Nalivaychenko (filmed standing alongside Yarosh, speaking to fascist Trident training camp pre-coup). Obviously addressing Maidan sniper case. Addressing EU's next-day-abandonment of the Feb 21 agreement, as well as Geneva agreement. Addressing legal (il)legitimacy issues of coup, and EU cooperation with such illegality, as well as the legal basis of Russian actions. Addressing of political intimidation and violence vs. Rada members, local politicians, attacks on political party offices, attacks on leading politicians. Addressing constant lies of junta and junta-friendly media, and EU media repeating such as if it is reliable. Addressing how all the inconvenient facts are ignored or minimized. This is not about enforcing Russia's perspective or conclusions, it is about objective standards living up to the EU's own claimed ideals.

And hey, might as well insist on a full neutral 3rd party audit of EU 3rd Energy Package policy, looking at internal documents as to how it was formulated and applied from the start, i.e. from the start other non-Russian energy programs were given an exemption effectively making the entire policy an anti-Russian program with the pretense of being a 'neutral' energy policy. IMHO, Russia could well achieve that thru the courts, and demonstrate that the was never simply applying a rule neutrally, but was motivated against Russia, which should be illegal.

The EU itself in form of 3EP, Oettinger, Feuel (sp?), has been seen to be an appendage of "Atlanticist" policy, and the Feb21 and Geneva agreements they backed have been shown to have been a total waste of time used to consolidate the NATO-junta's position, so IMHO Russia should simply sideline them. If there is to be multilateral/European-facilitated negotiations, Russia should accept individual EU countries who can demonstrate a coherent position... Italy, maybe Germany or Austria, Slovenia? The junta already milked the EU for what it's worth, time for that game to end, and realistic paths to a solution to be taken rather than NATO circuses. As for the US, I don't know why Russia should concede any role to them at all, any format the US wants to create of inject itself into should be boycotted by Russia.

BTW, I think the term "Novorus" works better as a name for an independent country than "Novorussia", it is a bit more along the lines of Belarus, and doesn't just inherently feel like a "creature" of Russia like Novorussia does. Novorus also carries the suggestion of the ressurection of historic Rus, without antagonism between "Ukrainians" and "Russians", which is certainly a grand enough vision to base a country on. Novorus is more respectable term for both ethnic Russian and Ukrainian citizens of Novorus to embrace. It doesn't seem in Russia's inclination or economic interests to annex Novorussia completely, so the historically accurate term for the Novorussia governate of Russia isn't quite the best for a country that would need it's own independent identity...

After seeing the photos above... there is no doubt.. Is not all lost..

Russia have managed to raise awareness (through its media) and world opinion about what really happens in Ukraine..
Even CNN american mainstrain media (in a very rare report) .. ,had no option but to report about the attack
of the Combat jet against civilians after the confirmation of OSCE observers.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/06/03/pkg-magnay-ukraine-luhansk-air-strike.cnn.html?hpt=hp_t1

of course the so called VICE "neutral alternative media" have remained totally silent about that military strike
of the ukraine airforce on civilians.       

And the #Save Donbass People campaign is truly moving people to even do rallies against the NATO support of the kiev
neoNazi junta. So this is not a small thing.. With the help of real media with Solid facts ..Public Opinion was created world wide
and Won the Syria war.. allowed Assad to maintain unity in Syria in the vast majority of its army ,and government and civilians..
even including the ones that were peaceful political opposition ,supported Assad to at least stay as leader until all the war ends.

Who would have guessed any day ,that British parliament will have voted against Cameron attack on Syria?
That was a real turnover of the conflict. That even British politicians considered too extreme ,to support cannibals
in Syria in order to please Israel greater middle BS ambitions. So world opinion truly matters.. It was people opinion
what reversed the coup in Egypt removing US elected puppet from power. So the world public opinion about Ukraine ,
will save Donbass too ,and will create Big divisions in ukraine even between the Pro EU citizens. about the entire army Operation.

Once the public opinion across all Ukraine is massive and they start to do thousands rallies in all cities in favor to end
the illegal war that are killing civilians women and children ,and seek a political solution instead,then the war will end.
And Russia will not be even required to invade. All this of course depends of how long it takes for public opinion to change.