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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:42 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I repeat once again: why, if the saturn gas turbines are ready, would yantar decide to sell the 3 frigates?

    Only possible excuse is IF this is true.

    Is that they are producing the engines so slow, they would not have any engines ready for years which shocker Russian naval industry shows it's incompetence once more if that turns out to be true

    It simply makes no sense if they have engines ready or can make them they would sell the hulls rather then complete them.

    Well, Saturn is not producing the same powerplant that was in.the grigorovich (2 DS-71 cruise gas turbines 8,450 shp (6,300 kW) and 2 DT-59 boost gas turbines 22,000 shp (16 MW each)  rather the new one that is to be fitted on the Gorshov frigate
    M90FR FRU 20 MW (max 25 28) (Saturn is also producing M70FRU 14 MW , M70FRU2 6 8 MW)

    . It is possible.that adapting that powerplant to the grigorovic would require serious hull work. In that case it would be maybe ok do a mod for new frigates and adapt them to the gorshov engine, but would not be worth for the hulls that are already in advanced stage of completion.

    Eh they could easily rig the engines for the ships that isn't hard so I am not inclined to agree.

    I mean it's not a bad theory and it's a reasonable one but simply doesn't work like that. Gas turbines are gas turbines if they were trying to switch to a whole new power plant sure.
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    JohninMK

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:58 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Eh they could easily rig the engines for the ships that isn't hard so I am not inclined to agree.

    I mean it's not a bad theory and it's a reasonable one but simply doesn't work like that. Gas turbines are gas turbines if they were trying to switch to a whole new power plant sure.

    How much of a say did the Indians, as the prospective customer, have a say in the decision?

    Perhaps they got such a really low price out of the Ukrainians for the turbines that it really was a no brainer to use them? Maybe the Indians, quite understandably, didn't want to be one of the first users of brand new Saturn engines and for logistics etc wanted the same as they already had? It also minimises the chance of any potential delays caused by re-engineering, even if, as you say, it would be slight and gets the ships off the books and into, albeit lower, revenue quicker.

    It seems to me to be the lowest risk decision from so many aspects for everyone involved. Good commercial play by the Russians.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Isos on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:32 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I repeat once again: why, if the saturn gas turbines are ready, would yantar decide to sell the 3 frigates?

    Actually it depend on how gorshkov program goes. Grigorovich were made only for export in their version for india. When they saw that gorshkov were harder to build than expected they ordered some grigorovich.

    With the engine issue grigorovich program is  as slow as gorshkov one.

    If they are sure to build more gorshkov quickly they will sell these frigates to buy gorshkovs. That was the original plan.

    Except they have shown to be completely incapable of building Gorsh in any reasonable timeline.

    So this theory makes no sense what so ever and isn't supported by any facts

    Grigorovich are nout build so fast too. They also have supergorshkov in mind.

    I think they are lost in all those projects they don't even know what they want.

    They were supposed to have only gorshkov as their only frigate and they end up building grigorovich, derzki, gorshkov, future super gorshkov ...

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:42 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I repeat once again: why, if the saturn gas turbines are ready, would yantar decide to sell the 3 frigates?

    Actually it depend on how gorshkov program goes. Grigorovich were made only for export in their version for india. When they saw that gorshkov were harder to build than expected they ordered some grigorovich.

    With the engine issue grigorovich program is  as slow as gorshkov one.

    If they are sure to build more gorshkov quickly they will sell these frigates to buy gorshkovs. That was the original plan.

    Except they have shown to be completely incapable of building Gorsh in any reasonable timeline.

    So this theory makes no sense what so ever and isn't supported by any facts

    Grigorovich are nout build so fast too. They also have supergorshkov in mind.

    I think they are lost in all those projects they don't even know what they want.

    They were supposed to have only gorshkov as their only frigate and they end up building grigorovich, derzki, gorshkov, future super gorshkov ...


    They were built in like three years each....That's not ideal but that's not bad also two years is generally the max a ship of that size should take..so three years by russian standards is actually pretty dam good.

    That is one problem they have I will agree they cannot make up their minds
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:51 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Eh they could easily rig the engines for the ships that isn't hard so I am not inclined to agree.

    I mean it's not a bad theory and it's a reasonable one but simply doesn't work like that. Gas turbines are gas turbines if they were trying to switch to a whole new power plant sure.

    How much of a say did the Indians, as the prospective customer, have a say in the decision?

    Perhaps they got such a really low price out of the Ukrainians for the turbines that it really was a no brainer to use them? Maybe the Indians, quite understandably, didn't want to be one of the first users of brand new Saturn engines and for logistics etc wanted the same as they already had? It also minimises the chance of any potential delays caused by re-engineering, even if, as you say, it would be slight and gets the ships off the books and into, albeit lower, revenue quicker.

    It seems to me to be the lowest risk decision from so many aspects for everyone involved. Good commercial play by the Russians.

    It's not even clear this is happening, no paperwork exists yet to support it.

    We have had Yantar and Russian admirals say stuff like this before to find out it was false.

    If the Indian's did purchase the hulls, then they get all the say on what's going into that engine section. That said if the Saturn engines are truly ready why would they sell the hulls? Even if the Russians were like "Hey we have our new engines ready use these rather then the shitty Ukrainian ones".

    Ukrainian tech is known to be very not reliable after all. To the point stuff they have sold is generally returned due to quality concerns.

    It just doesn't make any sense if the Russians had the engines they would not sell the ships, so IF this selling stuff is true then that means NPO Saturn was pulling BS all this time and they, in fact, have shit except maybe a couple of prototype engines. Which if that's the case, Goddam these need to be shot.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:23 pm

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I repeat once again: why, if the saturn gas turbines are ready, would yantar decide to sell the 3 frigates?

    Actually it depend on how gorshkov program goes. Grigorovich were made only for export in their version for india. When they saw that gorshkov were harder to build than expected they ordered some grigorovich.

    With the engine issue grigorovich program is  as slow as gorshkov one.

    If they are sure to build more gorshkov quickly they will sell these frigates to buy gorshkovs. That was the original plan.

    Except they have shown to be completely incapable of building Gorsh in any reasonable timeline.

    So this theory makes no sense what so ever and isn't supported by any facts

    Grigorovich are nout build so fast too. They also have supergorshkov in mind.

    I think they are lost in all those projects they don't even know what they want.

    They were supposed to have only gorshkov as their only frigate and they end up building grigorovich, derzki, gorshkov, future super gorshkov ...


    No, quite simply, they faced the troubles of a dilapidated supply chain, and discovered that almost everything they designed in late 80ies to early 90ies could not be built at a reasonable pace, so they adopted a two pronged approach: they inducted more old school hulls, like the Grigorovich to keep some token operative force available, and used the 90ies projects as a basis for further development.

    Whatever they designed between 80ies and 90ies they deeply overhauled in the 2000ies to get where they are starting to be now: 20386, so called super Gorshkov and so on are what, anyway, hey should have designed and inducted in service at around present time.

    What they lost, and that loss will still be here for a decade if not longer, are the classes they should have inducted in the 90ies, from a large number of 20380s that didn't get built to the successors of Sovremennyis and Udaloys and Slavas that never happened at all.

    Now Russian Navy is lying the foundations of its force structure in the next two to three decades, and it will take almost another decade before the results of these years of work and thinking will bear their fruits and get fully visible.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:04 pm

    Isos wrote:......
    They were supposed to have only gorshkov as their only frigate and they end up building grigorovich, derzki, gorshkov, future super gorshkov ...

    That's a corvette, frigate and a destroyer right there

    They have pretty much entire lineup, they just need to get on with it already
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Isos on Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:52 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:......
    They were supposed to have only gorshkov as their only frigate and they end up building grigorovich, derzki, gorshkov, future super gorshkov ...

    That's a corvette, frigate and a destroyer right there

    They have pretty much entire lineup, they just need to get on with it already

    Well no one really cares jow you call them. It is just that they want to build the super gorshkov instead of the gorshkov even if there isn't nothing official. And Grigorovich were not meant to be part of russian navy they took them because they had to replace old ships. They wanted 1 design which was gorshkov to be the backbone of their navy and it is not. They needed some 20-30 of them.

    I'm just telling the facts not my opinion.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:04 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:.....
    They have pretty much entire lineup, they just need to get on with it already

    Well no one really cares jow you call them. It is just that they want to build the super gorshkov instead of the gorshkov even if there isn't nothing official. And Grigorovich were not meant to be part of russian navy they took them because they had to replace old ships. They wanted 1 design which was gorshkov to be the backbone of their navy and it is not. They needed some 20-30 of them.

    I'm just telling the facts not my opinion.


    I am not disagreeing.

    I have been saying for a while that they need to just pick one, send blueprints to several shipyards and get cracking.

    They want one design? Fine but this is getting hilarious. With current approach by the time they start getting them they will be obsolete.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:24 am

    You guys are forgetting that Pr. 11356 Grigorovich class was never intended to be Russia's main frigate.
    They ordered six of them only and only for the Black Sea Fleet which was fast moving towards obsolescence.
    That were just a quick fix solution for the Black Sea Fleet only.
    They made that choice because Grigorovich technology was mature and the ships could be had relatively quickly.
    The Gorshkov frigates and Steregushy corvettes will be the mainstays of the RuNavy's 2nd and 3rd rank assets - not the Grigoroviches.

    When the construction of the 3 remaining Grigoroviches was halted due to Ukrop engine embargo, the Navy Glavkomand decided to sell these unfinished hulls and move on.
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    littlerabbit

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  littlerabbit on Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:17 pm

    I'm still thinking that Russia should built 5 Gorshkovs and 2 Super Gorshkovs for the Black Sea Fleet, then send 3 Grigorovichs to Baltic Fleet and get rid of Moscow Slava cruiser, period. Wink

    hoom

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  hoom on Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:29 pm

    Thing is, Gorshkov is still not ready.
    Like with the new Kilos for BSF which were because Ladas weren't ready & with that program still not ready (pretty much cancelled & new Kalina in the works but far from ready for production) they bit the bullet to build a new series for Pacific fleet, to me it makes sense to build a 2nd series of Grigoroviches.

    The Frigate program is a close parallel: Gorshkov is still not ready, (pretty much cancelled & new Super Gorshkov program announced but still a long way off), there is still (arguably even more so) a desperate need for new surface ships.
    They could do a lot worse than build a new batch of Grigoroviches.

    kumbor

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    project 11356

    Post  kumbor on Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:36 am

    hoom wrote:Thing is, Gorshkov is still not ready.
    Like with the new Kilos for BSF which were because Ladas weren't ready & with that program still not ready (pretty much cancelled & new Kalina in the works but far from ready for production) they bit the bullet to build a new series for Pacific fleet, to me it makes sense to build a 2nd series of Grigoroviches.

    The Frigate program is a close parallel: Gorshkov is still not ready, (pretty much cancelled & new Super Gorshkov program announced but still a long way off), there is still (arguably even more so) a desperate need for new surface ships.
    They could do a lot worse than build a new batch of Grigoroviches.

    1135/11351/2/6 proved themselves as succesful and seaworthy vessels. 11356`s are new, with new equipment, and that is the most important. Obviously that the domestic production of GTs is not going as planned. Mistake! They should have switched to Saturn GTs earlier, as the breakup with Zorya-Mashproekt was only the question of time. And I can bet that somebody could simply sabotage the ukrainian production or toss "the extra bolt" into the engine and destroy it while it runs somewhere at sea!

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