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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:53 am

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:32 am

    unless we are talking about 30km shore bombardment. 70km ammo is not really cheaper then Hermes missile.

    Well to be fair we cannot really tell the price of either, but as the 152mm shell will have GLONASS guidance and ten years ago when first reported was described as being a 1,000 dollar US fuse with fins attached to standard rounds, I would expect it might be cheaper than a Hermes missile because solid rocket fuel is not cheap, and thermal optical and MMW radar seekers are not cheap either...

    Hermes =/= Pantsir AAM.

    Hermes is a SSM, while Pantsir is a SAM, that can also be used as a SSM... but I would suggest that certain terminal guidance options for Hermes would be conducive to creating an AAM in its air launched model, which would make the ground launched version a SAM...

    It would be rather expensive to fill what would equate to a Grad battery with Hermes, but they might be a useful addition to take out specific targets.


    Price? Ramjet 152km wont be cheap either same class Id say. Just Hermes is 2x range. Last but not least it c an also work in salvos but 152mm cannot.

    I rather doubt the 70km range Hermes is ramjet powered... more likely it probably has a very aerodynamic shape and reduced warhead size to increase flight range... probably with base bleed as well.

    152mm shells would be ideal for salvoes... if you need salvoes then you probably don't need extreme precision and a bit of spread would be useful.

    Solid rocket fuel is not cheap either and rockets are not efficient if they have expensive components like seekers and autopilots.

    Against point targets Hermes makes sense if you don't have room for a 152mm turret, but against area targets that need salvoes then use Smerch...

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    Post  Hole on Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:12 am

    Best option would be if the Hermes fits into the magazine of the Pantsir. You could fit smaller boats (Osa-size) with a Pantsir mount and put in a mix of Pantsir and Hermes missiles. Good air defence + capability to attack sea/land targets. Like the old SM-1 launcher of the Perry class.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    unless we are talking about 30km shore bombardment.   70km ammo is not really cheaper then Hermes missile.

    Well to be fair we cannot really tell the price of either, but as the 152mm shell will have GLONASS guidance and ten years ago when first reported was described as being a 1,000 dollar US fuse with fins attached to standard rounds, I would expect it might be cheaper than a Hermes missile because solid rocket fuel is not cheap, and thermal optical and MMW radar seekers are not cheap either...


    $1,000? unlikely, in Russia it can be cheaper but not 800 times:
    In 2016, the Navy decided not to buy the 155mm Long-Range Land Attack Projectile (LRLAP) round, given its exorbitant cost of $800,000 per shell.
    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21531/yes-this-is-a-ramjet-powered-artillery-shell-and-it-could-be-a-game-changer



    GB wrote:.It would be rather expensive to fill what would equate to a Grad battery with Hermes, but they might be a useful addition to take out specific targets.

    precisely same as ramjet 152mm projectiles wont replace good old unguided/unpowered ones






    Price? Ramjet 152km wont be cheap either same class Id say. Just Hermes is 2x range.  Last but not least it c an also work in salvos but 152mm cannot.
    I rather doubt the 70km range Hermes is ramjet powered... more likely it probably has a very aerodynamic shape and reduced warhead size to increase flight range... probably with base bleed as well.

    152mm shells would be ideal for salvoes... if you need salvoes then you probably don't need extreme precision and a bit of spread would be useful.

    Solid rocket fuel is not cheap either and rockets are not efficient if they have expensive components like seekers and autopilots.

    [/quote]

    #800,l000 per ramjet projectile in salvos? whoa
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:54 am

    Best option would be if the Hermes fits into the magazine of the Pantsir. You could fit smaller boats (Osa-size) with a Pantsir mount and put in a mix of Pantsir and Hermes missiles. Good air defence + capability to attack sea/land targets. Like the old SM-1 launcher of the Perry class.

    With the new model Pantsir with 30km range and the bigger booster to accelerate it to about 1.7km/s on launch I would suspect it is the same size of bigger than Hermes already so there should be very little problem in loading Hermes into Pantsir... but in most situations Pantsir missiles already get the job done and would be much cheaper than Hermes because they are command guided and dont have terminal guidance.



    $1,000? unlikely, in Russia it can be cheaper but not 800 times:

    From Oct 2011:

    https://iz.ru/news/504342

    Moscow design Bureau "Compass" — one of the major Russian developers of navigation for the Armed forces — successfully tested navigation GLONASS module for artillery ammunition.

    The new module created in the framework of the program "Dynamics", can be installed on new shells, and on pre-existing, told "Izvestia" a source in the defense Ministry.

    Module development "Compass" can be screwed to the head of the artillery shells of 152 mm caliber and above, a regular place of the fuse. It includes a combined fuse, receiver of signals of GLONASS and control surfaces — aerodynamic control surfaces, which are arranged in flight and adjust the trajectory of the projectile, — said the interlocutor of "Izvestia".

    Unlike shells controlled by a laser beam, the projectile with the module "Dynamics" does not depend on weather conditions and requires no external illumination of target, which allows you to quickly hit point targets with known coordinates. Circular error probable modernized so the projectile does not exceed 10 m, whereas for conventional 152-mm shells at long range shooting, it may reach 100 m and more.

    The Russian version of the modernization of ammunition allows you to make bombs with satellite guidance is much cheaper than the 155-mm projectile American Excalibur is guided by GPS. This missile, equipped with a gas generator and built-in wheels, is worth more than $80 thousand is Expected that a larger series, its price must fall to $50 thousand Domestic module which allows to upgrade the existing warehouse shells, will cost slightly more than $1 thousand, explained "Izvestia" a source in the military-industrial complex.

    Module can be used for old shells and new, but in any case it will be much cheaper than the American product. Russian scientists were able to achieve sustainable GLONASS signal for rotating the projectile, while the American "Excalibur" must stop its rotation to get a navigation signal. This greatly complicates and increases the cost of its construction, — said the interlocutor of the newspaper.

    According to the chief editor of the specialized magazine "Arsenal" Victor Murakhovski, the new Russian design — a real revolution in artillery.

    — With the new shell can be reused to reduce the consumption of ammunition. When firing conventional shells to a platoon strong point to 1.8 thousand have shells, and then take ten times less. The accuracy of the modernized shells does not fall with distance — it will be the same regardless of whether we shoot for 5 km or 50 km away. This allows you to instantly hit any target, the main thing — to know their coordinates, which can be obtained from reconnaissance drones and other sources — said the expert.

    Murakhovski also noted that the low price of the module allows you to quickly equip the artillery units a large number of guided missiles, with no additional upgrades guns themselves is not required.

    However, the head of the military forecasting Center Anatoly Tsyganok said that for the effective use of such shells in the army lacks precision targeting.

    In — depth exploration solves other problems, and none of its guidance on long-range artillery will not detract. Satellite controls all the battlefield and also will not re-tune for each weapon, — said Tsyganok.

    In his opinion, to direct precision missiles have unmanned spy planes, which in the Russian army yet.


    precisely same as ramjet 152mm projectiles wont replace good old unguided/unpowered ones

    They don't have to.... the guidance system above is a new electronic fuse with control surfaces attached to the nose of old and new rounds...

    The new 70km rounds are not ramjet assisted, they are standard long range base bleed rounds from a longer barrel gun with a big powder charge... ramjet and scramjet powered models should manage much better range performance...

    I rather doubt the 70km range Hermes is ramjet powered... more likely it probably has a very aerodynamic shape and reduced warhead size to increase flight range... probably with base bleed as well.

    Hermes has been described as being 100km range max but that is with a ballistic lofted trajectory and is not really confirmed... ATM it is a 25km + range missile for helos...

    #800,l000 per ramjet projectile in salvos? whoa

    43kg 152mm artillery shells with a $1K dollar nose mounted fuse and guidance system could easily be volley fired out to 70km range in the new long barrel Coalition artillery system relatively cheaply.
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:05 pm

    VKS RF tested the newest air defense system "Pantsir-SM"

    The Russian aerospace troops tested the latest Pantsir-SM anti-aircraft missile and cannon complex, said the commander of the air defense forces, the deputy commander-in-chief of the VKS, Lieutenant General Yuri Grekhov.

    As the general-lieutenant noted, the complex showed itself well, in particular, against unmanned aerial vehicles and other ultra-small targets.

    The Pantsir-SM complex, the latest version of the Pantsir ZRPK, has shown its high efficiency in ultra-small quadcopter-type targets,” said Sins on Echo of Moscow

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201904061955-87tq.htm
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    Post  dino00 on Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:29 pm

    An article with the idea of the four small missiles in one tube in pantsir-SM, it is a massive amount of ready to fire missiles.
    The article is about the trend for more missiles per system.

    A group of four cars will be able to repel an attack of air attacks simultaneously from all directions, or concentrate fire on the most threatened site. Four Pantsir-SM SAMs with only missile weapons can carry a total of 48 missiles with a firing range of 40 km and 192 Gvozd missiles with an estimated firing range of 10-15 km. The combination of 240 ground-to-air missiles and a large number of guidance channels will allow four Pantsir-SM air defense systems to repel the enemy’s massive fire attack, for example, a link from four F-15E fighter-bombers with 28 GBU GBU-53B on each or a volley of eight salvo fire systems M270 MLRS

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    Post  dino00 on Wed May 08, 2019 12:45 pm

    Our "shell" against the Israeli "Fury"

    Rampage rocket positioned as a "killer" of our complexes. But is it?

    https://armystandard.ru/news/t/20194251756-Tzblc.html
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    Post  Isos on Wed May 15, 2019 10:30 pm

    https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html/amp?__twitter_impression=true

    Pantsir too much expensive ?

    Propaganda article but the info is worth discussing. They say the pantsir is expensive and not satisfying the army and the navy. IMO looks like a typical bullshit propaganda with always the same "secret source inside MoD".
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed May 15, 2019 11:44 pm

    Putin mentioned ordering more Pantsir

    So it must work compared to the unnamed source.

    They use claim that it was destroyed in Syria but use video footage of one not in use because of spent ammo. Also their claim it mostly use cannons to intercept targets is a joke since videos exist of the interception with missiles, along with reports Tor heavily used.

    So it's pure propaganda.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 16, 2019 12:35 am

    Isos wrote:https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html/amp?__twitter_impression=true

    Pantsir too much expensive ?

    Propaganda article but the info is worth discussing. They say the pantsir is expensive and not satisfying the army and the navy. IMO looks like a typical bullshit propaganda with always the same "secret source inside MoD".

    It certainly isn't too expensive. It is one of the most cost effective solutions on the market. The problem is effectiveness. Israel pretty much made it a laughing stock by destroying them with missiles the Pantsir was designed to shoot down. The primary buyers of the weapon system are Arab Republics that hate Israel, to see them take out their new toys so easily is disconcerting to say the least.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu May 16, 2019 12:50 am


    Israelis have been working on that one Pantsir unit before several days in order to get the money shot (to say nothing of way they are being operated and by whom)

    Am I to assume that F-16 is trash because Syrians shot one down?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 16, 2019 1:12 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Israelis have been working on that one Pantsir unit before several days in order to get the money shot (to say nothing of way they are being operated and by whom)

    Am I to assume that F-16 is trash because Syrians shot one down?

    The targets were in the middle of firing so they must not have worked it very hard. I assume the F-16 is trash when they are being shot down by antiquated MiG-21s.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 am

    Vladimir,

    Firstly, If the Israelis were able to "easily" take out the Pantsirs they would;ve have done so ages ago....just because they managed to get one after a massive effort and bragged about it doesn't mean it's easy

    Secondly, Russia deals with Isreal with unbelievable patience due to political considerations. If they wanted to, they could make even flying in Isreali air space a very dangerous proposition....but they don't. There are reports that the Syrian S-300's are only armed with short range missiles to prevent them to endanger Isreali flights over Israel and Lebanon
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    Post  Isos on Thu May 16, 2019 3:09 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:[]

    It certainly isn't too expensive.  It is one of the most cost effective solutions on the market.  The problem is effectiveness.  Israel pretty much made it a laughing stock by destroying them with missiles the Pantsir was designed to shoot down. The primary buyers of the weapon system are Arab Republics that hate Israel, to see them take out their new toys so easily is disconcerting to say the least.  

    It's not a magical weapon. Overwhelming it is easy, it's not because it has 12 missiles that it can engage 12 targets at once and syrian destroyed ones have been proved to not work when destroyed. Only assholes can be impressed by that.

    But it seems russian had bad time against small drones. Tor was send in hmeimim while there was already pantsirs there.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 16, 2019 4:17 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Vladimir,

    Firstly, If the Israelis were able to "easily" take out the Pantsirs they would;ve have done so ages ago....just because they managed to get one after a massive effort and bragged about it doesn't mean it's easy

    Secondly, Russia deals with Isreal with unbelievable patience due to political considerations. If they wanted to, they could make even flying in Isreali air space a very dangerous proposition....but they don't. There are reports that the Syrian S-300's are only armed with short range missiles to prevent them to endanger Isreali flights over Israel and Lebanon

    They have done it on two occasions, each time they only engaged because they were being fired at. Multiple units were destroyed, at least 5 from the released videos and it could be more.

    Half of the ruling party seats are held by Russian speaking Jews Why wouldn't we be patient with them? We have far more in common than the Arabs.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Thu May 16, 2019 5:37 am

    3 pantsirs destroyed apparently. But 2 of them were idle. One were the crew we're outside smoking and the other with it's radar down and missiles not in use. Third one looked like it was in use but hit twice.

    So far, there is plenty of countries with Pantsir. No one reporting issues. Iraq, Syria and UAE to name a few. I believe Algeria as well.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 16, 2019 9:21 am

    The problem is that if it is too expensive but not capable enough then the only way to improve capability would be to add terminal guidance to the missiles which will make it rather more expensive.

    The real solution is to find the source of the incoming threats and deal with the launch platforms.

    Instead of setting wasp traps around your picnic area go find the wasp nest and destroy it... or shut up and just take it like a bitch... because you are if that is the situation and you refuse to deal with the root cause.
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    Post  medo on Thu May 16, 2019 4:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:3 pantsirs destroyed apparently. But 2 of them were idle. One were the crew we're outside smoking and the other with it's radar down and missiles not in use. Third one looked like it was in use but hit twice.

    So far, there is plenty of countries with Pantsir. No one reporting issues. Iraq, Syria and UAE to name a few. I believe Algeria as well.

    Pantsir is just fine and don't believe to much in that western and Israeli propaganda. It is not a problem of Pantsir itself, but in way of using it. Single Pantsir can not defeat whole Israeli air force. Problem is, that SAA cover too many places with too few Pantsirs, what bring to situation, that one site is protected with 1 or maybe 2 Pantsirs instead of whole battery. Who was in air defense, knows, that battery is a basic unit and you should never divide battery. Battery of 6 Pantsirs + CP + battery radar will protect each other in case of large swarm of kamikaze drones or in time of reloading. Single Pantsir is still limited against big swarm of drones although it could engage 4 targets simultaneously and very vulnerable in time of reloading if it is not protected in that time. Battery of Pantsirs have 72 missiles on launchers and could engage 24 targets simultaneously.
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    Post  Isos on Thu May 16, 2019 5:33 pm

    Interesting analyze. He is right, pantsir is not a s-400 but a point defence systeme. And it's not the first time he complains about spare parts.



    Syrian Military Capabilities
    @Syrian_MC
    ·
    Troubled only on the western propaganda
    Pantsir showed outstanding results in Syria
    And the lost units were only destroyed while reloading or by overwhelm
    It managed to shoot down very small-fast moving objects

    The problem in Syria that Pantsir is treated like a regional system

    The system is taking the regional tasks along with the Buk, due to the lack of modern long-range systems

    But the only problem with the Pantsir is the intense need for maintenance
    But every modern Russian system needs to be maintained regularly, unlike the rugged Soviet products
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    Post  calripson on Thu May 16, 2019 6:34 pm

    Air defense systems operating under the explicit or implicit rules of engagement in Syria are always going to be defeated eventually. Firstly, the Pantsirs are operating without the benefit of enemy aircraft being engaged by modern long-range SAMS not to mention other aircraft. Most importantly, there is no counterstrike capability utilized to attack the airfields, radar, ships, command-and-control facilities of the attacking forces. It is like asking a boxer to fight an opponent by slipping and blocking punches, but he is not allowed to hit back.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 16, 2019 8:38 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:3 pantsirs destroyed apparently. But 2 of them were idle. One were the crew we're outside smoking and the other with it's radar down and missiles not in use. Third one looked like it was in use but hit twice.

    So far, there is plenty of countries with Pantsir. No one reporting issues. Iraq, Syria and UAE to name a few. I believe Algeria as well.

    I guess you didn't see the two burning ones in the background not to mention several were destroyed by Harop drones.

    No other country that has them has been attacked accept Syria so what would they know? They can't stop drones, they can't stop glide bombs and they cant stop cruise missiles.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 16, 2019 10:39 pm

    They can't stop drones, they can't stop glide bombs and they cant stop cruise missiles.

    To be fair if they could not stop any of those things we would not be talking about three destroyed we would be talking about having none left and needing more to be sent to replace them.

    Regarding costs I wonder if they are considering that new BMP-3 system with the 57mm gun turret... it has no radar but fairly extensive night and all weather optics and air burst shells should allow it to rather efficiently lob a few shells into the path of incoming threats to destroy them.

    Mention of the air burst 30mm shells seemed to suggest they used a rear facing laser sensor so the rounds are monitored as travel towards the target and when they get a specific distance from the target a laser beam is directed at the shells and they explode.

    It sounds really complicated, but the alternative is an incredibly precise timer... that is micro second accurate so the trajectory of the target and flight time of the out going round can be used to calculate an intercept point in space... that shell distance minus say 5 metres and then the shell is fired and 5 metres before impact the shell explodes spraying forward a swath of fragments like a claymore mine.

    The problem is that such levels of accuracy needed make those timers rather expensive and obviously being located inside the shell are destroyed with use.

    This new laser method means all the expensive complicated calculation and timing components can be in the vehicle and reused repeatedly, and while it means the vehicle needs to be able to both precisely track the outgoing shells and the target, it means that if the target veers off the timing of the detonation can be adapted after the round has been fired to get the most effective result.

    For instance a standard airburst shell might be optimised to spray fragments forward to hit a target in front of it, but if the trajectory is not perfect (and it wont be) then as the fragments spray forward they will spread so detonation at 10m might allow the fragments to spread enough to hit a target that might be missed if it detonates at 5m... but the system can make these calculations while the shell is in flight.

    The airburst round might also have fragments around the side to hit targets the round would otherwise miss by too far, so if the miss distance is a little high the detonation might be delayed slightly so that the target gets hit with the side fragments instead... not as effective but better than no hit at all.

    The advantage of a 57mm calibre system is that it would be cheaper with no radar systems and the rounds it fires should be much cheaper than missiles though it might need 2-3 or even 5-6 rounds per target to ensure a kill, it is still better than 30-50 rounds with a 30mm calibre gun that still might miss a very small target.

    To be honest if you had said even just 5 years ago that the Israelis with F-35s and all their specialist weapons and equipment were mounting mass attacks and only managed to get less Syrian SAM systems than could be counted on one hand I would have laughed in your face and told you to grow up.

    The reality is that there is no 100 percent perfect air defence system, but Pantsir and TOR are pretty close.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu May 16, 2019 11:32 pm

    But we are talking about them needing replacement because they don't work as a point defence, the task for which it was designed. The cost of them increases for the naval version and to depend on such a faulty system for fleet defence is folly. They must be replaced immediately. We need point defence lasers on all platforms and soon.
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    Post  George1 on Thu May 16, 2019 11:34 pm

    New Pantsir-S1M upgraded after Syria to be able to hit any drones — designer

    The new missile’s range has been increased to 30 kilometers

    MINSK, May 14. /TASS/. The upgraded export version of the air defense missile and artillery system Pantsir-S1M has acquired the ability to effectively hit all types of drones, the High Precision Systems holding company’s deputy CEO for foreign economic activity, Sergei Mikhailov, told TASS on Thursday. The upgrade work was carried out on the basis of experience gained during the Syrian campaign.

    "It is very important that the range of hittable targets has been greatly expanded on the basis of the results we obtained in Syria. Corresponding amendments have been introduced. The system can now hit any types of drones effectively," Mikhailov said.

    The new missile’s range has been increased to 30 kilometers.

    "With the introduction of the new missile the system’s range has been increased to 30 kilometers. Respectively, we will have two types of missiles - near and longer range ones," he said.

    Mikhailov remarked that the new system was meant for foreign markets. The Pantsir-S1M is in the final phase of preliminary tests at one of Russia’s test sites.

    "It is being tested at a proving ground in Russia. Most of the preliminary trials have been carried out already," he said.

    Terrorists in Syria made several attempts to attack the Russian airbase Hmeymim with makeshift drones and bombard it with rockets. The airbase is protected by the Pantsir-S1 system (basic version). The Defense Ministry says the system demonstrated its high effectiveness in countering such threats.

    The system Pantsir is meant for the close range defense of civilian and military facilities, including long-range air defense systems. An upgraded system Pantsir-SM is being developed for the Russian armed forces.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1058576

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