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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 17, 2019 12:35 am

    Except you are lying. Prove more than 3 destroyed.

    Plus, you are basing off of an article claiming it doesn't work from an unnamed source while MoD clearly stated the system works as intended. So that includes names.

    I know your kind of character so I know you will believe tabloid articles with no substance than what is official.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 17, 2019 12:36 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:3 pantsirs destroyed apparently. But 2 of them were idle. One were the crew we're outside smoking and the other with it's radar down and missiles not in use. Third one looked like it was in use but hit twice.

    So far, there is plenty of countries with Pantsir. No one reporting issues. Iraq, Syria and UAE to name a few. I believe Algeria as well.

    I guess you didn't see the two burning ones in the background not to mention several were destroyed by Harop drones.  

    No other country that has them has been attacked accept Syria so what would they know?  They can't stop drones, they can't stop glide bombs and they cant stop cruise missiles.

    That's not what MoD says.

    Combat Approved:


    Testing at range in 2006:
    https://www.military.com/video/defense-systems/air-defense/pantsir-s1-engages-various-targets/2965792537001

    Instead of lying Vlad, here is the video you speak of:



    That video has two pantsirs destroyed. If you noticed second Pantsir destroyed, neither it's radar is up and used and it's sitting idle.

    Gee wiz
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 17, 2019 12:57 am

    Funny enough no one else is taking Defence Blogs BS either. It's rather hilarious.

    Also, it appears our site admin is a troll too. Only one can be when there is nothing but nonsense being spewed and little understanding to basics.

    I'm out.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 17, 2019 1:08 am

    Israel has been destroying Syria's air defences with impunity.  Making excuses doesn't change the facts they are helpless to stop them much less changing the fact that any Russian naval vessel relying on Pantsir M is helpless to stop attacks in the point defence role. That is why the MoD is desperately looking for a replacement.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri May 17, 2019 1:31 am

    The problem for Arab countries has always been their poor pilots and not the hardware that they were using. Likewise the USSR
    actually had its own pilots fighting for North Vietnam since the Vietnamese pilots were poor. The USA was basically doing the same
    thing in the case of South Vietnam. Syria's rag tag military is hardly top level competent and the Pantsir losses were just
    pure incompetence. Again, Russia had to be Syria's air force to do the job right.

    We are dealing with under-developed countries that do not have the resources to maintain world class training and technology.
    Trying to fob this off onto Russian hardware is pure dishonesty.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri May 17, 2019 1:47 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:Israel has been destroying Syria's air defences with impunity.  Making excuses doesn't change the facts they are helpless to stop them much less changing the fact that any Russian naval vessel relying on Pantsir M is helpless to stop attacks in the point defence role. That is why the MoD is desperately looking for a replacement.


    Agreed

    Ruskies should just take all that junk they have been making and dump it here in Serbia, we will take that trash off their hands so they don't need to pollute the motherland

    Funny how every single weapon system gets 7000% performance increase the moment it arrives here, must be some local anomaly in Earth's magnetic field here...

    Russians can shop around for that precious European technology in the meantime, it has magic sauce that makes it so amazing (just don't tell that to Americans, they might die of laughter) lol1



    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 17, 2019 3:57 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:Israel has been destroying Syria's air defences with impunity.  Making excuses doesn't change the facts they are helpless to stop them much less changing the fact that any Russian naval vessel relying on Pantsir M is helpless to stop attacks in the point defence role.  That is why the MoD is desperately looking for a replacement.

    They have tor and ak-630 that work very fine.

    Syrian experience against Israel is not a proof of anything. Israel has always much more intel data on where syrian air def are and all the time they were overwhelmed.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 17, 2019 4:22 am

    The simple fact is that attack is always easier than defence... the israelis have all the time to examine any particular base in Syria and work out how the defences are organised.

    If you see three Pantsir systems then a quick rule of thumb calculation will work out how many munitions and UCAVs you need to send at that base at any one time to overwhelm the defences.

    But like I said before, if Pantsir was rubbish the US and Israel and Turkey would be happily operating aircraft in Syrian air space with little regard for anything anyone said.

    The facts are that what Russia has done to their air defence network has turned them from international airspace to controlled airspace the US and Israelis refuse to fly F-35s into... gee whiz... must be junk, because any fanboy will tell you a weapon system is either the best in the world and no one can beat it or it is rubbish there is nothing in between.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 17, 2019 8:57 am

    Isos wrote:

    They have tor and ak-630 that work very fine.

    Syrian experience against Israel is not a proof of anything. Israel has always much more intel data on where syrian air def are and all the time they were overwhelmed.

    Those are last gen systems. The new ships have Panstir M as a more affordable yet supposedly superior system of point defence. The Israelis didn't just wipe out a Pantsir battery, they wiped out 5 batteries of four different types in one air raid.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri May 17, 2019 12:55 pm

    Have read on a few sites that the problem is that the missiles are not so effective against targets that are manouvering hard and that the upgrades in design are intended to deal with that.

    The new improved system is supposed to have two different missile types, one an extended range missile with a max range of 30km and another shorter range missile which is smaller and carried four to a launch tube... more importantly it has larger control surfaces and is rather more manouverable though with a shorter effective range.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 17, 2019 1:26 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    They have tor and ak-630 that work very fine.

    Syrian experience against Israel is not a proof of anything. Israel has always much more intel data on where syrian air def are and all the time they were overwhelmed.

    Those are last gen systems.  The new ships have Panstir M as a more affordable yet supposedly superior system of point defence.  The Israelis didn't just wipe out a Pantsir battery, they wiped out 5 batteries of four different types in one air raid.  

    Do you have proof of that ? On the videos we can identify only two pantsir being destroyed. The third one is something like a osa or a strela 10. The two pantsir were clearly not working.

    The first being the one with crew clearly seen outside the pantsir and not operating it on the very first video. The second is this one (the second vehicle in this video with what can be a strela being destroyed at the beggining.

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 17, 2019 3:34 pm

    Don't bother. I already asked him. He is living in his own fantasy.

    Two pantsirs confirmed. Both with it's radar not in use since it's down. One clearly shows a swarm attack as the system blew up in front of the camera before also hitting it.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 17, 2019 3:47 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Don't bother. I already asked him. He is living in his own fantasy.
    Both with it's radar not in use since it's down.

    It is clear from the video it is launching missiles so how can it's radar be down. Stop living in fantasy and except the reality. They didn't stop Israel from destroying hundreds of targets and officials in the MoD clearly understand this. The decision is made that Panstir M will not be replacing Kashtan, another system must be found.
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 17, 2019 4:10 pm


    It is clear from the video it is launching missiles so how can it's radar be down

    It is not clear at all. The path followed by the missiles is not similar at all to pantsir's missile.

    The only fact that can be used to say the system is not that good is that tor was send to protect hmeimim air base while pantsirs were already there.

    You can see here that only the guns are elevated and the radar is down.

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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 17, 2019 4:14 pm

    What is this nonsense about radar up or down? It has a search and track radar and an engagement radar. The engagement radar doesn't go up or down.
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 17, 2019 5:29 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:What is this nonsense about radar up or down?  It has a search and track radar and an engagement radar.  The engagement radar doesn't go up or down.    

    Suspect

    Do you know how it works at least ? Engagement radar can't see 360°. If they really did use only the engagement radar then they should just destroyed the pantsirs themselves.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri May 17, 2019 5:39 pm

    Isos wrote: Suspect

    Do you know how it works  at least ? Engagement radar can't see 360°. If they really did use only the engagement radar then they should just destroyed the pantsirs themselves.

    Do you know that it has autonomous IR tracking with Radio command guidance? Did you know they only need one search and track for targeting as they are all data linked? I guess you don't know that they all don't turn on their radars making them active targets to be destroyed.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri May 17, 2019 6:02 pm

    The system is stationary. It ain't moving. Even it was stated by Syrians that it was out of ammo.
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    Post  Isos on Fri May 17, 2019 6:04 pm

    When you have so much missiles/drones targeting your position you turn it on you don't rely on a ir camera.

    If they were so well linked other pantsirs should have protected those reloading.

    It's not the first time syrian don't know how to use russian simpliest hardware.
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    Post  Hole on Fri May 17, 2019 10:14 pm

    The Tor-M2 was send there to being tested in combat conditions. The Pantsirs in Hmeimim destroyed even mortar bombs in a distance of 18km.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 17, 2019 10:56 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Don't bother. I already asked him. He is living in his own fantasy.
    Both with it's radar not in use since it's down.

    It is clear from the video it is launching missiles so how can it's radar be down. Stop living in fantasy and except the reality. They didn't stop Israel from destroying hundreds of targets and officials in the MoD clearly understand this. The decision is made that Panstir M will not be replacing Kashtan, another system must be found.

    The pantsir did it work.

    Israel use supersonic missiles recently , and had to change its strategy regard the intrusions into Syrian airspace.


    From the videos it is visible they launched at least two missile against each unit, most probably 4-6 was launched .


    It means that ISrael has to increase the number of jets for the sorties, instead of two they have to use 4-6 f-whatever.


    The pantsir has 12 missile , say probably 50% probability of interception against supersonic , so 4-6 missile would destroy one battery.

    I think the Russian MOD would like instead of one attack plane for each pantsir to see two-four .


    But, this is the learning curve, I am sure they update like the hell the softwares/ missiles (needs to be capable to pull more G ) and so on.


    No one can forget the increase of required airplanes for each target increase the chance of interception of them by the strategic air defence as well...
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri May 17, 2019 10:57 pm

    duplicate


    Last edited by Singular_Transform on Sat May 18, 2019 9:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB on Sat May 18, 2019 4:31 am

    Normally Pantsirs operating as a battery would not all have their search radars operating, simply because they will all be detecting the same targets and could end up all engaging the same target which would ensure that target is destroyed but would be horribly inefficient.

    If I understand the situation properly it seems there were only a couple of Pantsirs at each site and they relied on target information from the IADS network, so they would be handed targets by the network and would engage that target until it was destroyed and then transmit to the network that they were ready to engage another target. The network would note the target was taken out and decide on the next most dangerous threat for the vehicle to engage... in other words the IADS does the threat assessment and chooses which vehicle engages which threats.

    Based on the known capacity of these vehicles... the speed of their missiles, detection and engagement ranges, it is merely a mathematical calculation to determine what sort of attack force would be needed to penetrate the defences.

    As I mentioned above they have smaller more manouverable missiles intended to engage manouvering targets, but in Russian protected bases they could easily just use TOR missiles to hit manouvering munitions... it has side mounted rocket thrusters and in the last split second before impact and shift a few metres in any direction to improve lethality... you can see some of the side thruster rockets when the missile is launched up into the air to turn the missile toward the intended target. There are more side thrusters than are needed for launch that can be used in the last split second of interception... normal control surfaces are used to get the missile close and rocket boosters used to make it even closer just before they cross or impact... for a manouvering target they are necessary, but non manouvering target will likely result in a hit anyway.

    Right now the Army and VDV seem to be in the process of introducing the SOSNA-R which is a smaller missile with larger control fins, and they are also developing the small 9M100 IIR guided short range missile too.

    It is good that they are learning lessons from the conflict in Syria, but that was always going to be an issue... it doesn't matter what you come up with... the other guy is always going to examine it carefully to find weaknesses and problems to exploit.

    A proper Russian IADS includes aircraft and airborne radar and a whole lot of other things not present in Syria defending Syrian forces.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun May 19, 2019 12:26 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:The Israelis didn't just wipe out a Pantsir battery, they wiped out 5 batteries of four different types in one air raid.  

    Sure they did Cool

    That's why they still can't fly over Syria and have to develop new missiles
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun May 19, 2019 8:47 am

    I think a bit, and to protect the pantsirs and make the aggressors life miserable doesn't needs hardware update.


    They have to go back to the basics, decoys , minimum protection for the units, and moving them periodically and randomly.


    And it can be good if someone makes a trap emitter, with good long antenna lead and a robust high gain antenna, preferably cheap, that can make a mouse trap for harp drones/ supersonic missiles.

    Many of the pantsir hit wasn't operational, if they have few dozen decoys then the aggressor has to waste missile onto them.

    Simple earthworks can make it very hard to distinguish between real and fake machines.


    Best part of the above require "only " training and strict operation procedures.

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