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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    GarryB
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:25 am

    Escaping them would be easy, just need to break ground radar lock.

    You make it sound so easy...

    And you are also wrong... the Pantsir can use optical guidance as well as radar tracking.

    breaking radar lock is not that easy either.

    Pantsirs missiles are command guided... they do not use radar guidance.

    AFAIK the search radar on Pantsir finds targets, while the tracking radar tracks up to 3 targets and up to 6 out going missiles, while the optical system can track one target and two missiles to engage that target.

    That means one vehicle can engage 4 targets with up to 8 missiles at once.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Isos on Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Escaping them would be easy, just need to break ground radar lock.

    You make it sound so easy...

    And you are also wrong... the Pantsir can use optical guidance as well as radar tracking.

    breaking radar lock is not that easy either.

    Pantsirs missiles are command guided... they do not use radar guidance.

    AFAIK the search radar on Pantsir finds targets, while the tracking radar tracks up to 3 targets and up to 6 out going missiles, while the optical system can track one target and two missiles to engage that target.

    That means one vehicle can engage 4 targets with up to 8 missiles at once.

    I was talking about his idea of long range missile. I know they are command guided, that's why I said they can break the radar lock. To guide the missile you need to lock your ground radar on the target and then send this information to the missile. But If you opponent knows your are using a long range pantsir, thanks to it's electronic warfare suite, he can just reduce it's altitude or hide behind a mountain.

    Pantsirs are exellent for the short-medium range but I don't think it's usefull for lang range. And optical system won't help for a target that's 100 km away.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  franco on Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:54 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Prepare to feast your eyes on this, from KBP Tula plant:






    From the announced TO&E for these 10 new Northern airfields being built or upgraded, there will be a couple of Panstirs per... maybe these babies.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Austin on Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:28 pm

    Pantisir-SM 40 Km Range

    http://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/201610100835-lozb.htm
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rmf on Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:01 pm

    that 2 piece truck and trailer is interesting , if they are connected by some umbilical cable that is spun out as truck moves then you can have truck leave the trailer and move away thus have separated crew from all radiating elements so crewed truck is much safer from attack and survivable.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:45 am

    that 2 piece truck and trailer is interesting , if they are connected by some umbilical cable that is spun out as truck moves then you can have truck leave the trailer and move away thus have separated crew from all radiating elements so crewed truck is much safer from attack and survivable.

    The two piece vehicle setup is the same as the old DT-10 type snow vehicle.

    The connection is hydraulic and includes transmission of power to the rear vehicle and brakes etc.

    The connection can be manipulated so the front section can be angled up to drive onto ice and then the rear section can be lifted up so it can get out of water onto ice by itself...

    I was talking about his idea of long range missile. I know they are command guided, that's why I said they can break the radar lock. To guide the missile you need to lock your ground radar on the target and then send this information to the missile. But If you opponent knows your are using a long range pantsir, thanks to it's electronic warfare suite, he can just reduce it's altitude or hide behind a mountain.

    First of all breaking radar locks is not as easy as you seem to think, most systems have ECM and ECCM capability so any jammers can be attacked and decoys can be discerned from real targets... these missiles are not active homers... the target just needs to be followed... once detected by radar then optical systems can be used to track its movement or the radars on other platforms can be used to follow the movements of the target.

    The IRST of the MiG-35 has a range of 95km, do you think a system on a vehicle like Pantsir will have trouble detecting targets at 40km?

    (100km is for ground targets with Hermes missiles that are terminally guided).


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Isos on Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:09 pm

    First of all breaking radar locks is not as easy as you seem to think, most systems have ECM and ECCM capability so any jammers can be attacked and decoys can be discerned from real targets... these missiles are not active homers... the target just needs to be followed... once detected by radar then optical systems can be used to track its movement or the radars on other platforms can be used to follow the movements of the target.

    The IRST of the MiG-35 has a range of 95km, do you think a system on a vehicle like Pantsir will have trouble detecting targets at 40km?

    (100km is for ground targets with Hermes missiles that are terminally guided).

    Read again what I was saying. I just said a long range version of pantsir is useless and wouldn't be as effective as hort/medium pantsir which is a very capable system.

    Yes it's easy to break a radar lock from a ground radar that is 100 km away, just reduce your altitude. It's a commun tactic. All modern aircrafts can identify what type of radar and air defence system are operating and targeting them. NATO has electronic spy Aircraft operating near S-400/300 and pantsir and they are probably better than russians spy plane. A long range pantsir would be in their database as soon as it is marketing.

    The IRIST of the mig-35 has a maximal range of 95 km. Against a F-22 or pak Fa with reduce IR signatures in cloudy conditions, it's not better than your eyes. Idem for the optical systeme of the pantsir. If it was so good it wouldn't be used just in case of heavy ECM conditions as a second detection system.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Viktor on Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:02 am

    Isos wrote:
    First of all breaking radar locks is not as easy as you seem to think, most systems have ECM and ECCM capability so any jammers can be attacked and decoys can be discerned from real targets... these missiles are not active homers... the target just needs to be followed... once detected by radar then optical systems can be used to track its movement or the radars on other platforms can be used to follow the movements of the target.

    The IRST of the MiG-35 has a range of 95km, do you think a system on a vehicle like Pantsir will have trouble detecting targets at 40km?

    (100km is for ground targets with Hermes missiles that are terminally guided).

    Read again what I was saying. I just said a long range version of pantsir is useless and wouldn't be as effective as hort/medium pantsir which is a very capable system.

    Yes it's easy to break a radar lock from a ground radar that is 100 km away, just reduce your altitude. It's a commun tactic. All modern aircrafts can identify what type of radar and air defence system are operating and targeting them. NATO has electronic spy Aircraft operating near S-400/300 and pantsir and they are probably better than russians spy plane. A long range pantsir would be in their database as soon as it is marketing.

    The IRIST of the mig-35 has a maximal range of 95 km. Against a F-22 or pak Fa with reduce IR signatures in cloudy conditions, it's not better than your eyes. Idem for the optical systeme of the pantsir. If it was so good it wouldn't be used just in case of heavy ECM conditions as a second detection system.

    No enemy ECM aircraft could get close enough to counter Pancir-SM 40km range missiles. At least if we speak about Russian PVO design.

    In Syria theatre for example it a valiable option but than again tactic is also different. You can easily adopt different tactics to make ECM unusable. Its not like Pancir-SM will be waiting

    with its radars turned on for enemy to make it un-usable. Smile Thats why you have hundreds of radar systems just watching turning off and on and changing location, scaning and your

    own ECM to make enemy ECM un-usable. SAMs stay silend until they dont Smile
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:42 am

    Read again what I was saying. I just said a long range version of pantsir is useless and wouldn't be as effective as hort/medium pantsir which is a very capable system.

    There is no long range version of Pantsir.

    Yes it's easy to break a radar lock from a ground radar that is 100 km away, just reduce your altitude. It's a commun tactic. All modern aircrafts can identify what type of radar and air defence system are operating and targeting them. NATO has electronic spy Aircraft operating near S-400/300 and pantsir and they are probably better than russians spy plane. A long range pantsir would be in their database as soon as it is marketing.

    Just reduce altitude?

    A long range Pantsir would likely have terminal guidance... active radar homing or IIR guidance would mean no amount of descent would help... there is no radar lock needed... this is not a SARH missile... once the target is detected occasional scans to ensure it has not changed path drastically would be all that is needed for the engagement.

    Datalinks means it does not matter what radar or sensor detected the target... a Pantsir could launch a missile at a target it never even detects itself... data from another source... including passive radar detecting enemy spy aircraft and AWACS aircraft based on their emissions could be used to get the missiles close enough for their own seekers to do the rest.

    The IRIST of the mig-35 has a maximal range of 95 km. Against a F-22 or pak Fa with reduce IR signatures in cloudy conditions, it's not better than your eyes.

    An F-22 operating near Russian forces will maximise its performance by supercruising... ie taking the high ground.

    In doing so it will fly in high altitudes where there are no clouds and at speeds where the surface area of the aircraft are heated by friction to the point where a Mig-35 or Su-35 or PAK-FA will detect them at enormous distances...

    Idem for the optical systeme of the pantsir. If it was so good it wouldn't be used just in case of heavy ECM conditions as a second detection system.

    Who says it will only be used in heavy ECM situations? Pantsir uses CM and MM wave radar and EO systems for targeting.


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rmf on Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:39 pm

    well old s-75 from 60s had 40km range and it was radio command guided , anyway radar horizont at 40km is 60 meters on flat terrain .
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:59 pm

    Pantsir-S1 air defense systems arrive in West Siberia

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/922647


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:27 pm



    New arctic Pantsir-SA in Alabino.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Rmf on Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:33 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6Z2WhoOTS4&feature=youtu.be&t=196
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  medo on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:05 am



    New Arctic Pantsir-SA have 18 missiles on launchers and no guns.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:25 am

    The flat open terrain of the arctic means if they get to gun range then there are problems...


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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:51 am

    GarryB wrote:The flat open terrain of the arctic means if they get to gun range then there are problems...

    Target will be bombers and cruise missiles. I don't think fighters can go there from USA or Europe.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  marat on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:41 pm

    It seems that Pantsir got his first kill. UAE Pantsir have apparently shooted down Saudi UH-60.

    https://twitter.com/MbKS15/status/854360400120479745


    Last edited by marat on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 pm

    marat wrote:It seems that Pantsir got his first kill. UAE Pantsir have apparently shooted down Saudi UH-60.

    It already shot down turkish F-4 back in 2012.

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  marat on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:56 pm

    Isos wrote:
    marat wrote:It seems that Pantsir got his first kill. UAE Pantsir have apparently shooted down Saudi UH-60.

    It already shot down turkish F-4 back in 2012.

    Is that confirmed? If yes sorry to all becouse my misinformation.
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Benya on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:24 pm

    Here we go guys, some tech specs of the Pantsir-SA (Data is mostly relevant for the regular Pantsir, but is relevant for this arctic variant too)


    Pantsir-SA Arctic short-range missile-gun air defense system


    Description

    The Pantsir-SA is a new Russian-made short-range air defense missile-gun system using the Pantsir-S1 weapon station. The system is especially designed to be used for Arctic region based one the chassis of the DT-30PM tracked all-terrain vehicle which consists of two tracked vehicle units linked by a steering mechanism. The second vehicle is used to carried the Pantsir-S1 weapon station. The Pantsir-SA was unveiled during the rehearsal for the Russian Victory Day Parade 2017, in April 2017. According to the Russian newspaper website Sputnik, the Russian army has received the first samples of Pantsir-SA at the end of 2016. In December 2014, Russia unveiled a revised military doctrine that prioritizes the protection of national interests in the Arctic. Russia has improved its presence in the Arctic, believed to hold huge oil and natural gas deposits, establishing a new Arctic command and is expanding its icebreaker fleet.

    Variants:

    - Pantsir-S1: first version of the Russian-made air defense system
    - Pantsir-S2: an improved version of the Pantsir-S1 using new surface-to-air missiles and also fitted with a new SOTS S-band search radar to increase the detection range from 36 km to over 40 km.

    Armament

    The Pantsir-SA seems to be fitted with the same weapon station as the Pantsir-S1 which consists of twelve 57E6 surface-to-air guided missiles and two 2A38M30-millimetre automatic guns developed from the two-barreled 30mm GSh-30 gun. The missiles can hit target with a range from 1,200 to 20,000 m at an altitude from 5 to 15,000 m. The cannons can engage target from a range of 200 to 4,000 m at an altitude from 0 to 3,000 m.

    Design and protection

    The Pantsir-SA is based on the chassis of the DT-30PM-T1 tracked articulated tractor ((DT stands for ‘articulated tractor’ in Russian), an all-terrain vehicle which consists of two tracked vehicle units linked by a steering mechanism. The DT-30PM is especially designed to be used in the harsh climatic conditions of the Arctic region. The first vehicle of the DT-30PM is a tracked platform with water-displacing sealed all-welded body housing a crew cabin for 4 - 7 people equipped with autonomous heating and air ventilation systems, power plant, transmission and a cargo compartment located at the rear of the crew cab. The Pantsir-S1 weapon station is mounted on the tracked chassis of the second vehicle. The DT-30PM has a curb weight of 31,500 kg, a payload of 30,000 kg and a length of 16.08 m, width of 3.10 m and a height of 3.33 m.

    Mobility

    The Pantsir-SA uses the same chassis and powerpack as the standard DT-30PM. The vehicle is motorized with a V-shaped, 12-cylinder multi-fuel diesel engine YaMZ-847.10 developing 800 hp. The DT-30PM can run at a maximum road speed of 45 km/h with a maximum cruising range of 700 km. The DT-30PM can negotiate gradients up to 30° and slope of 15°. It can cross a trench of 4.5 m width and a vertical obstacle of 1.2 m.

    Combat use

    The Pantsir weapon station can conduct fire at two targets at the same time and attack up to 12 targets within a minute. The system's effective range for missiles is 20 kilometers and the maximum altitude is eight kilometers, and for artillery shells up to three and four kilometers respectively. It can also operate in a passive mode using an infrared channel in the long-wave band with logical processing of the signal and automatic tracking. The Pantsir weapon station is able to defeat almost the entire spectrum of air threats, all types of precision guided weapons in particular, flying at a speed of up to 1,000 m/s and approaching from different bearings at an angle of 0- 10 ° to 60 - 70°, aircraft flying at a speed of up to 500 m/s, helicopters, remotely piloted vehicles, as well as light armoured ground targets and enemy manpower. The combination of missile and gun armament enabling the operator to create a continuous target engagement zone and fire at targets uninterruptedly beginning from their maximum range of 18 to 20 km up to a range of minimum 200 m. Target flying at an altitude of 5 to 15 km can be shot down. The Pantsir weapon station is equipped with multiple-mode adaptive radar/optical weapons control system operating in the UHF, EHF and IR regions of the spectrum. The system features high immunity to jamming, survivability in the presence of electronic countermeasures and under enemy fire.
    The Pantsir weapon station fire control system includes a target acquisition radar and dual waveband tracking radar (designation 1RS2-1E for export models), which operates in the UHF and EHF waveband. Detection range is 32–36 km and tracking range is 24–28 km for a target with 2 m2 RCS. This radar tracks both targets and the surface-to-air missile while in flight. As well as radar, the fire control system also has an electro-optic channel with long-wave thermal imager and infrared direction finder, including digital signal processing and automatic target tracking.

    Specifications

    Armament
    Twelve ground-to-air missile launcher 57E6 / 57E6-E, two dual 2A38M 30 mm autocannon guns

    Country users
    Russia

    Designer Country
    Russia

    Accessories
    Radio commands with IR or radio direction finding, autonomous acquisition radar and tracking radar

    Crew
    4 - 7 soldiers

    Radar System
    Autonomous acquisition and tracking radar 1RS2-1

    Armor
    No armor protection.


    Source: Arrow http://www.armyrecognition.com/russia_russian_missile_system_vehicle_uk/pantsir-sa_arctic_short-range_missile-gun_air_defense_system_technical_data_sheet_specifications_pictures_video_11604176.html#top
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  hoom on Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:03 pm

    The Pantsir-SA seems to be fitted with the same weapon station as the Pantsir-S1 which consists of twelve 57E6 surface-to-air guided missiles and two 2A38M30-millimetre automatic guns developed from the two-barreled 30mm GSh-30 gun.
    I'm presuming they wrote that before the pics without the cover came out because its got 18 missiles, the S2 radar & the turret section seems to be notably lower volume than either S1 or S2.

    I'm wondering if there is less volume due to no guns/ammo &/or newer better electrics or just relocated into the front section?
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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  Book. on Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:28 am

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    Re: Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:22 pm

    I'm wondering if there is less volume due to no guns/ammo &/or newer better electrics or just relocated into the front section?

    2,000 30mm cannon shells do take up quite a bit of space, plus the servo equipment for pointing and stabilising the guns would take up a bit more, but I suspect their electronics has gotten rather smaller too.

    Certainly if modern rifle mounted thermal sights are anything to go by the new models are tiny compared with the older models and also are much more capable... and cheaper.


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