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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

    Just saying that mod I thought you were saying ministry of defense not moderator.
    The expert that didn't right but was attributed to him was Vicktor Murackovski( I think this is the correct name).
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:25 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    No, it was written by someone from the mod staff, that's why I remembered it

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less



    It was Vladimir

    Correct, I remember now


    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:20 pm

    PANTSIR-SM Performance characteristics:


    KILL DISTANCE UP TO 40 KM
    KILL ALTITUDE. UP TO 15 KM

    SPEED OF TARGETS. UP TO 2000 m/s
    NUMBER OF CHANNELS. 4

    Expected more altitude, can shoot ~Mack 6 targets what a Beast!
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:22 pm

    dino00 wrote:PANTSIR-SM Performance characteristics:


    KILL DISTANCE                           UP TO 40 KM
    KILL ALTITUDE.                           UP TO 15 KM

    SPEED OF TARGETS.                 UP TO 2000 m/s
    NUMBER OF CHANNELS.         4

    Expected more altitude, can shoot ~Mack 6 targets what a Beast!

    Speed of targest...2km/s? As you already posted it'll fire missiles at 3km/s which is effectively Mach 9, which means it'll be able to engage targets easily double the Mach 6 speed (Mach 12-16 more precisely).

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1878p950-pantsir-s1-news-thread#257767
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:00 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:PANTSIR-SM Performance characteristics:


    KILL DISTANCE                           UP TO 40 KM
    KILL ALTITUDE.                           UP TO 15 KM

    SPEED OF TARGETS.                 UP TO 2000 m/s
    NUMBER OF CHANNELS.         4

    Expected more altitude, can shoot ~Mack 6 targets what a Beast!

    Speed of targest...2km/s? As you already posted it'll fire missiles at 3km/s which is effectively Mach 9, which means it'll be able to engage targets easily double the Mach 6 speed (Mach 12-16 more precisely).

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1878p950-pantsir-s1-news-thread#257767

    That was a source, this numbers are from a official plaque in Army-2019...
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:58 am

    The flight speed of a missile does not really give an indication of the speed of targets it can intercept, that comes down to tracking accuracy and performance and the size and ability of the warhead to deal with targets moving very very fast.


    Of course one interesting factor is that these new missiles obviously use a much larger calibre booster rocket so the tubes will likely be larger calibre and longer, so any mini missile like the four missiles to a single tube designs for short range high manouvering threats might carry more than four missiles per tube or might carry slightly larger missiles with better performance.

    If I was designing it I would keep the existing missiles and perhaps try to add a fifth missile in the tube so you can standardise the smaller missiles so all batteries could use them... the new batteries could just have slightly more ready to fire missiles.
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:56 pm

    More  Pantsir-SM photos

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 40 7000031_original

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 40 7002617_1000
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:30 pm

    That's an all new system compare to previous pantsirs. Everything is new and different.
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    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:42 pm

    dino00 wrote:PANTSIR-SM Performance characteristics:


    KILL DISTANCE                           UP TO 40 KM
    KILL ALTITUDE.                           UP TO 15 KM

    SPEED OF TARGETS.                 UP TO 2000 m/s
    NUMBER OF CHANNELS.         4

    Expected more altitude, can shoot ~Mack 6 targets what a Beast!

    Just as in case with S-400 where number of guidance channels mean for Russian army is 10 and for export version 6 meaning restrictions are there I suspect same is the case with Russian and export versions of Pancir-SM. 4 channels for Russian army seems a bit restricted while it missions include UAV swarms. I think 6 at least and 8 also very likely in combo with one TELAR shooting and another one guiding is deadly enough. If the function of switching is added also we can be thinking about it as a dance a dance of death.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:29 am

    Also keep in mind that very high missile flight speed means engagement times are much shorter so more targets can be engaged per minute than with a slower missile.

    For instance comparing a system launching Kornet missiles at a group of hovering helos at 9km range compared with a SOSNA-R system launching Pine missiles at the same group... the Kornet missile moves at about 350m/s so to engage a target at 9km would take about 30 seconds.

    If both systems could engage one target at a time then the Kornet system could engage two targets per minute but the Pine system with an engagement time of 8 seconds at about 10km range means 60/8 = 7.5, so over 7 targets per minute can be engaged.

    With flight speeds of 3km/s targets in the middle range should be intercepted rather quickly, so a group of low flying targets at 10km might only take 5 seconds from detection to tracking to launch and kill so while on paper it can engage 4 targets at one time, lets be generous and say one complete engagement per ten seconds, so four times 6 is 24 targets per minute per TEL is pretty damn good, but I agree the domestic model could probably do rather better... shorter ranges and longer ranges will effect the engagement rate of course and some targets might need to be re-engaged...
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:24 am

    The targets need to be on the same side to engage 6 of them at the same time.

    If it has 1 coming from the front and 1 behind, it won't be able to engage both. So it needs very well coordination with other pantsirs. I think israeli used such tactic when attacking syrian pantsirs.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:52 am

    Isos wrote:The targets need to be on the same side to engage 6 of them at the same time.

    If it has 1 coming from the front and 1 behind, it won't be able to engage both. So it needs very well coordination with other pantsirs. I think israeli used such tactic when attacking syrian pantsirs.

    If your talking about optical engagement you would be correct, but command posts circumvents that problem with radar guidance.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:40 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:The targets need to be on the same side to engage 6 of them at the same time.

    If it has 1 coming from the front and 1 behind, it won't be able to engage both. So it needs very well coordination with other pantsirs. I think israeli used such tactic when attacking syrian pantsirs.

    If your talking about optical engagement you would be correct, but command posts circumvents that problem with radar guidance.

    What do you mean ? A single pantsir has 1 fixed engagement radar. If wants to engage another target it need either to wait the hit of the first or be able to see both targets with its radar.

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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:36 pm

    Tests of the upgraded ZRPK "Pantsir-S1M" will be completed in July

    https://ria.ru/20190627/1555957219.html

    Improved version of the export Pantsyr-S1
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:41 pm

    Isos wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Isos wrote:The targets need to be on the same side to engage 6 of them at the same time.

    If it has 1 coming from the front and 1 behind, it won't be able to engage both. So it needs very well coordination with other pantsirs. I think israeli used such tactic when attacking syrian pantsirs.

    If your talking about optical engagement you would be correct, but command posts circumvents that problem with radar guidance.

    What do you mean ? A single pantsir has 1 fixed engagement radar. If wants to engage another target it need either to wait the hit of the first or be able to see both targets with its radar.


    Command posts allow the launchers to pass on control of missiles to other launch vehicles in a IAD environment. It's like passing a baton in a relay , this redundancy is needed so that launcher vehicles missiles could be still used even when their sensors are damaged or malfunctioning.
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:53 pm

    Isos wrote:The targets need to be on the same side to engage 6 of them at the same time.

    If it has 1 coming from the front and 1 behind, it won't be able to engage both. So it needs very well coordination with other pantsirs. I think israeli used such tactic when attacking syrian pantsirs.

    Targets need to be in a sector covered by its shooting radar that is why the smallest operational unit is battery and each of them have their command post which distributes targets automatically and instantly so all shooting units would be optimized against a threat of that or any other kind. Bigger the threat the more complex command post with higher priority managing many more shooting units and now of different ranges and speeds and etc

    GarryB wrote:Also keep in mind that very high missile flight speed means engagement times are much shorter so more targets can be engaged per minute than with a slower missile.

    For instance comparing a system launching Kornet missiles at a group of hovering helos at 9km range compared with a SOSNA-R system launching Pine missiles at the same group... the Kornet missile moves at about 350m/s so to engage a target at 9km would take about 30 seconds.

    If both systems could engage one target at a time then the Kornet system could engage two targets per minute but the Pine system with an engagement time of 8 seconds at about 10km range means 60/8 = 7.5, so over 7 targets per minute can be engaged.

    With flight speeds of 3km/s targets in the middle range should be intercepted rather quickly, so a group of low flying targets at 10km might only take 5 seconds from detection to tracking to launch and kill so while on paper it can engage 4 targets at one time, lets be generous and say one complete engagement per ten seconds, so four times 6 is 24 targets per minute per TEL is pretty damn good, but I agree the domestic model could probably do rather better... shorter ranges and longer ranges will effect the engagement rate of course and some targets might need to be re-engaged...

    Also imagine if they would apply the 3M-54 principle on a air-defense missiles where the terminal phase surprises the sensor with max dash speed what it would do to a single man manning the aircraft as a trick of some sort Smile

    In general greater speed is advantageous at the boost phase because it allows quicker reaction time and shortens minimum of defensive line stretching engagement envelope to both ends of time meaning more shots still it would come as a nasty surprise if the opposing operator where to discover that the engine has reignited meaning he now has much less time than anticipated to think of a new plan and that could not go well specially for the pilotes trained to think as per pre-planed scenarios Smile

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