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    Russian Patriot

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    Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:09 am

    Russia in talks on buying French warship
    RIA Novosti

    18:33 04/08/2009 MOSCOW, August 4 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is discussing the purchase of a French Mistral-class amphibious assault ship worth between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 mln), a high-ranking source close to the talks said Tuesday.

    "Such talks are being held at the level of experts; the Russian side is represented by the Navy, the United Shipbuilding Corporation, and plants' representatives. In September we will provide a final conclusion for the Russian Defense Ministry," the source told RIA Novosti.

    Earlier a French business daily, La Tribune, said Russia is planning to purchase a Mistral class assault ship from France. The purchase, if successful, would be the first large-scale arms import deal concluded by Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Russia first expressed an interest in bilateral cooperation with France in naval equipment and technology in 2008, when Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky visited the Euronaval 2008 arms show in France.

    The admiral said at the time that the Russian Navy was interested in "joint research and also direct purchases of French naval equipment."

    According to military sources, the possibility of buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship was discussed at the naval show in St. Petersburg in June this year.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The ship is equipped with a 69-bed hospital.

    The Russian Kommersant business daily confirmed on Tuesday the possibility of the deal, but said Russian military experts were skeptical about it.

    "The Russian Navy lacks the means to finance even the production of corvettes and missile boats, let alone the purchase of large combat ships," the paper quoted Mikhail Barabanov, science editor of the Eksport Vooruzheny (Arms Export) journal, as saying.

    Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, said "although the practice of arms imports will become more common in Russia in the future, the Mistral deal is rather questionable from a military standpoint, as well as Russia's hopes for the transfer of advanced technologies from France."

    Russia's current weapons procurement program through 2015 does not envision construction or purchases of large combat ships, so the possible acquisition of a French Mistral class ship is most likely to happen under the new program for the years up to 2020, which is still in the development.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2009/08/mil-090804-rianovosti10.htm
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:02 pm

    WTF ?!

    hehe sounds unbelievable...

    i agree with the Russian experts there, there is simply not enough funds to buy one
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:57 pm

    Russia is negotiating the purchase of a French ship for the Navy
    05.08.2009

    Russia is negotiating with France to purchase a universal landing vertoletonostsa type Mistral for the Navy. This is July 4, writes Kommersant, earlier reported the French business newspaper La Tribune. Moscow officially comment on this information to the Russian edition refused, however, according to multiple sources of Kommersant, the probability of such negotiations is extremely high. According to the French journalists, the outcome of negotiations will be concluded in September 2009, and in October French President Nicolas Sarkozy may visit Russia. However, as noted by La Tribune, while differences remain between the parties. Moscow insists on buying a ship and the construction of three more at the Russian shipyards, but, according to the source of the French edition, "the transfer of such technologies may be relatively limited."




    Kommersant said that the first time the possibility of acquiring foreign technology announced in October 2008, Navy Chief Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky during a visit to a naval Euronaval salon in France. According to Admiral, the Russian fleet "as a common interest development, as well as direct purchases of certain types of French equipment. Press also noted the interest of Chief landing ship Mistral type of DCNS.

    However, in the main headquarters of the Navy of Russia and other interested agencies and companies in the Russian "Kommersant" refused to comment on the purchase of a French ship. The publication stresses that the situation evolved, and unmanned aerial vehicles Israeli production, which initially also buy officially denied.

    Note that in the present composition of the French fleet was composed of two types vertoletonostsa Mistral, and the construction of another is not yet completed. Ships of this project are designed to transport troops and cargo, landing, and can also be used as a headquarters. Their total tonnage of 21,300 tons, length 199 meters, width - 32 m, speed - 18.8 knots, and range up to 19800 miles.

    Photos from the site www.military-today.com landing vertoletonosets type Mistral.

    http://www.lenta.ru/
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:40 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:WTF ?!

    hehe sounds unbelievable...

    i agree with the Russian experts there, there is simply not enough funds to buy one

    What? at the price range of 700-800M with tech transfer as well, that is barely anything to the Russian budget. Don't forget, the budget may say 40B for the Russian army, but it is most likely higher as different districts of the army get different amount of funds and are provided through other defense contracts as well. So 40B could be just the basic figure head of what the real price may be.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:46 am

    sepheronx wrote:[

    What? at the price range of 700-800M with tech transfer as well, that is barely anything to the Russian budget. Don't forget, the budget may say 40B for the Russian army, but it is most likely higher as different districts of the army get different amount of funds and are provided through other defense contracts as well. So 40B could be just the basic figure head of what the real price may be.

    40B is the procurement budget with 40% of it going to the Navy to mostly build submarines.700-800M is a huge portion of non-strategic procurement. While the Mistral would be a great addition to the fleet, who really needs it when we have so many other things taking priority? To support this ship we would need to install TOR and Kashtan CIWS as we don't want to rely on the iffy French systems, then we would need air defence destroyers of which we have none. While buying a French ship would probably be less problamtic with the corruption of the naval industry here, this is way down the road for procurement priorities.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:51 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:[

    What? at the price range of 700-800M with tech transfer as well, that is barely anything to the Russian budget. Don't forget, the budget may say 40B for the Russian army, but it is most likely higher as different districts of the army get different amount of funds and are provided through other defense contracts as well. So 40B could be just the basic figure head of what the real price may be.

    40B is the procurement budget with 40% of it going to the Navy to mostly build submarines.700-800M is a huge portion of non-strategic procurement. While the Mistral would be a great addition to the fleet, who really needs it when we have so many other things taking priority? To support this ship we would need to install TOR and Kashtan CIWS as we don't want to rely on the iffy French systems, then we would need air defence destroyers of which we have none. While buying a French ship would probably be less problamtic with the corruption of the naval industry here, this is way down the road for procurement priorities.

    But the in question many have is that the defense budget isn't really 40B but a lot higher.

    In modern era electronics, interchangeable parts is much easier and changing the systems to Russian would be much easier then thought. As well, 700M is still not a whole lot, especially on tech transfer. That is a complete design including some super computer systems for a small cost, rather then developing a new system. 40% of 40B (even though everyone knows the budget is higher)is 16B. Most submarines and basic blue water ships like large frigates does not cost that high. The R&D is already done (new frigates and submarines), and the Mistral already completes an R&D for you guy's, thus that is billions already saved. At that, now Russia just needs to develop a new Cruiser design and aircraft carrier design (something similar to the brits) and there you go, an effective navy at a not bad price either.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:49 pm

    700M is ALOT for us. You can buy an entire regiment of Su-35BMs, or two T-90S tank brigades. What do we need more, a landing ship, or more advanced fighters and tanks?
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:20 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:700M is ALOT for us. You can buy an entire regiment of Su-35BMs, or two T-90S tank brigades. What do we need more, a landing ship, or more advanced fighters and tanks?

    What happened to our own Ivan Rogov Class?

    We have the ablity to build landing ships ourselves.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladislav on Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:30 pm

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    What happened to our own Ivan Rogov Class?

    We have the ablity to build landing ships ourselves.

    Those ships are rusting out. I think rebuilding the class with some tech improvements would be more than adequate for our amphibous needs. Mistral is like trying to operate an aircraft carrier.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:06 pm

    Vladislav wrote:
    Russian Patriot wrote:

    What happened to our own Ivan Rogov Class?

    We have the ablity to build landing ships ourselves.

    Those ships are rusting out. I think rebuilding the class with some tech improvements would be more than adequate for our amphibous needs. Mistral is like trying to operate an aircraft carrier.

    And more economical.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:19 am

    I agree, Ivan R. class can carry an entire battallion anywhere we need it. The only conflict zones of real potential would be Georgia and maybe a dispute with Japan over Pacific islands. I would build more hovercrafts on the Caspian in case somebody acts up there. We don't really need brigade sized landing docks when we don't even have any real capable support helos to go on it. None of our attack helos are navalised so it doesn't make much sense unless we are going to buy Eurocopter, oh how I cherish that thought. Rolling Eyes
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:17 pm

    "Gorshkov" sell, "Mistral" buy
    14.08.2009

    The Russian Navy is waiting for a major replenishment. In September, could be a final decision on the purchase of the French universal vertoletonostsa type "Mistral" and the transfer of licenses for the construction of three more such vessels at Russian shipyards. For all that Moscow was prepared to pay more than 1 billion euro, which may be the largest contract in the history of relations between Russia and NATO countries. According to the plans of command ships of this type would have to create the backbone of the rapid reaction of Russian fleet.

    - Buy a complex naval technology in the country - a member of NATO should be preceded by a very serious peer review, - said a member of Council of the Ministry of Defense Igor Korotchenko. - There should be tender. For example, a system we can build Spain, and probably much cheaper than France.

    Curiously, the upcoming purchase of sales taking place against the backdrop of Russia aircraft cruiser "Admiral Gorshkov" in India. How is it worse than the French "Mistral"?

    Universal vertoletonosets type "Mistral" - the largest modern ships of landing forces, combining the functions vertoletonostsa and-ship dock. In Russia the Navy in size "Mistral" is second only to aircraft cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov". Instead, they are able to provide a forum to any other ship.

    For example, he can deliver anywhere in the world of 450 marines and 60 pieces of equipment. In doing so, his main tactical advantage will be an opportunity to plant them at any unequipped shores, no approach to it. To do this on board can be placed 20 transport or attack helicopters, and the hold-ship dock hidden four hovercraft.

    The second "Mistral" - the high automation of management. Ship displacement of 21 tons is controlled by just 160 sailors, that such Makhin indeed a revolution. The "Admiral Kuznetsov", by the way, the crew of 1300 people. In France, the Navy now has two similar ships - the head "Mistral" and "Tonner. A third body, just as his French and ready to sell us.

    - At the level of rumors concluding such contracts is discussed for almost a year - told "Izvestiya" the chief editor of Moscow Defense Brief Mikhail Barabanov. - At a recent Naval Show in St. Petersburg head the Navy Vladimir Vysotsky conducted intense negotiations with the French, and very clearly said that Russia was ready to buy imported equipment. Bad is that our public know about these decisions only now and then from French newspapers.

    Officially, the Defense Ministry had no comment on the possibility of such a transaction. Silent, and the Navy. One of the reasons - the extreme unpopularity of such a decision. Indeed, construction of new ships has already been laid for the domestic fleet due to lack of money is extremely slow. For example, the Navy's largest acquisition since 2000, Russia became built over 20 years and put into operation this year, and has frankly antiquated sloop "Yaroslav the Wise." A small sloop "Daghestan" to build the Caspian Sea for 17 years. Head corvette new project 20380 "Stereguschy" (a small boat in 2000 tons with a weak weapon) is seven years. The second series of four corvettes come into operation not earlier than 2011. The three laid down for the Caspian flotilla of small artillery ships such as "Astrakhan" surrendered just one, but two others are on the stocks. The number of these same novostroyaschihsya ship itself is sad - so many warships of similar classes of orders now for their fleets only Morocco and Indonesia.

    A larger surface units do not have to say. In 2004, the factory "Yantar" was laid a large landing ship "Ivan Gren" new displacement of 11711 tons 5500 - until now it only exists in the form of separate sections. Founded in 2006, the new frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" of 4500 tons will be launched into the test, at best, no earlier than 2012, but the full construction of mass-produced vehicles of both types in the coming years can hardly read it.

    According to Barabanova, the price of the issue to the end of construction could increase in times. Now Moscow has insisted that vertoletonosets was designed for operation in arctic latitudes, and all military systems, communications, weapons, aircraft must be Russian. 20 transport helicopters type Ka-29 will cost, according to rough estimates, the additional 200 million euros. However, with a modern vision of the procurement of arms and military equipment may be purchased and French cars. For example, the NH90 helicopters for 30 million euros apiece.

    Do experts raises more questions than the sum of the transaction itself, as meaning the purchase of such equipment. Ferries type "Mistral" are intended to carry out expeditionary tasks. Unlike France, which has overseas colonies, the question arises as to where Russia plans to throw actual landing. In Somalia? In Georgia? And maybe, in the Crimea? No understanding of what forces and means to ensure the safety of navigation of such whopper. They simply do not have appropriate combat support.

    Dmitry Litovkin

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Известия.ru.
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    soldieroffortune

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:14 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:[

    What? at the price range of 700-800M with tech transfer as well, that is barely anything to the Russian budget. Don't forget, the budget may say 40B for the Russian army, but it is most likely higher as different districts of the army get different amount of funds and are provided through other defense contracts as well. So 40B could be just the basic figure head of what the real price may be.

    40B is the procurement budget with 40% of it going to the Navy to mostly build submarines.700-800M is a huge portion of non-strategic procurement. While the Mistral would be a great addition to the fleet, who really needs it when we have so many other things taking priority? To support this ship we would need to install TOR and Kashtan CIWS as we don't want to rely on the iffy French systems, then we would need air defence destroyers of which we have none. While buying a French ship would probably be less problamtic with the corruption of the naval industry here, this is way down the road for procurement priorities.

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?
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    soldieroffortune

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:16 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:"Gorshkov" sell, "Mistral" buy
    14.08.2009

    The Russian Navy is waiting for a major replenishment. In September, could be a final decision on the purchase of the French universal vertoletonostsa type "Mistral" and the transfer of licenses for the construction of three more such vessels at Russian shipyards. For all that Moscow was prepared to pay more than 1 billion euro, which may be the largest contract in the history of relations between Russia and NATO countries. According to the plans of command ships of this type would have to create the backbone of the rapid reaction of Russian fleet.

    - Buy a complex naval technology in the country - a member of NATO should be preceded by a very serious peer review, - said a member of Council of the Ministry of Defense Igor Korotchenko. - There should be tender. For example, a system we can build Spain, and probably much cheaper than France.

    Curiously, the upcoming purchase of sales taking place against the backdrop of Russia aircraft cruiser "Admiral Gorshkov" in India. How is it worse than the French "Mistral"?

    Universal vertoletonosets type "Mistral" - the largest modern ships of landing forces, combining the functions vertoletonostsa and-ship dock. In Russia the Navy in size "Mistral" is second only to aircraft cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov". Instead, they are able to provide a forum to any other ship.

    For example, he can deliver anywhere in the world of 450 marines and 60 pieces of equipment. In doing so, his main tactical advantage will be an opportunity to plant them at any unequipped shores, no approach to it. To do this on board can be placed 20 transport or attack helicopters, and the hold-ship dock hidden four hovercraft.

    The second "Mistral" - the high automation of management. Ship displacement of 21 tons is controlled by just 160 sailors, that such Makhin indeed a revolution. The "Admiral Kuznetsov", by the way, the crew of 1300 people. In France, the Navy now has two similar ships - the head "Mistral" and "Tonner. A third body, just as his French and ready to sell us.

    - At the level of rumors concluding such contracts is discussed for almost a year - told "Izvestiya" the chief editor of Moscow Defense Brief Mikhail Barabanov. - At a recent Naval Show in St. Petersburg head the Navy Vladimir Vysotsky conducted intense negotiations with the French, and very clearly said that Russia was ready to buy imported equipment. Bad is that our public know about these decisions only now and then from French newspapers.

    Officially, the Defense Ministry had no comment on the possibility of such a transaction. Silent, and the Navy. One of the reasons - the extreme unpopularity of such a decision. Indeed, construction of new ships has already been laid for the domestic fleet due to lack of money is extremely slow. For example, the Navy's largest acquisition since 2000, Russia became built over 20 years and put into operation this year, and has frankly antiquated sloop "Yaroslav the Wise." A small sloop "Daghestan" to build the Caspian Sea for 17 years. Head corvette new project 20380 "Stereguschy" (a small boat in 2000 tons with a weak weapon) is seven years. The second series of four corvettes come into operation not earlier than 2011. The three laid down for the Caspian flotilla of small artillery ships such as "Astrakhan" surrendered just one, but two others are on the stocks. The number of these same novostroyaschihsya ship itself is sad - so many warships of similar classes of orders now for their fleets only Morocco and Indonesia.

    A larger surface units do not have to say. In 2004, the factory "Yantar" was laid a large landing ship "Ivan Gren" new displacement of 11711 tons 5500 - until now it only exists in the form of separate sections. Founded in 2006, the new frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" of 4500 tons will be launched into the test, at best, no earlier than 2012, but the full construction of mass-produced vehicles of both types in the coming years can hardly read it.

    According to Barabanova, the price of the issue to the end of construction could increase in times. Now Moscow has insisted that vertoletonosets was designed for operation in arctic latitudes, and all military systems, communications, weapons, aircraft must be Russian. 20 transport helicopters type Ka-29 will cost, according to rough estimates, the additional 200 million euros. However, with a modern vision of the procurement of arms and military equipment may be purchased and French cars. For example, the NH90 helicopters for 30 million euros apiece.

    Do experts raises more questions than the sum of the transaction itself, as meaning the purchase of such equipment. Ferries type "Mistral" are intended to carry out expeditionary tasks. Unlike France, which has overseas colonies, the question arises as to where Russia plans to throw actual landing. In Somalia? In Georgia? And maybe, in the Crimea? No understanding of what forces and means to ensure the safety of navigation of such whopper. They simply do not have appropriate combat support.

    Dmitry Litovkin

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Известия.ru.

    Perhaps it would be easier to keep "Gorshkov" and not to buy "Mistral".
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:30 pm

    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:40 pm

    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Perhaps it would be easier to keep "Gorshkov" and not to buy "Mistral".

    Please don't leave us with Gorshkov. If India hadn't bought it, that is what would have happened. Gorshkov is an aviation cruiser while Mistral is an LPD. They serve two different functions. Keeping Gorshkov would require us to refund India $700 million, plus spending $1.5 billion on refit. It would be cheaper to buy a Mistral.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:55 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:"Gorshkov" sell, "Mistral" buy
    14.08.2009

    The Russian Navy is waiting for a major replenishment. In September, could be a final decision on the purchase of the French universal vertoletonostsa type "Mistral" and the transfer of licenses for the construction of three more such vessels at Russian shipyards. For all that Moscow was prepared to pay more than 1 billion euro, which may be the largest contract in the history of relations between Russia and NATO countries. According to the plans of command ships of this type would have to create the backbone of the rapid reaction of Russian fleet.

    - Buy a complex naval technology in the country - a member of NATO should be preceded by a very serious peer review, - said a member of Council of the Ministry of Defense Igor Korotchenko. - There should be tender. For example, a system we can build Spain, and probably much cheaper than France.

    Curiously, the upcoming purchase of sales taking place against the backdrop of Russia aircraft cruiser "Admiral Gorshkov" in India. How is it worse than the French "Mistral"?

    Universal vertoletonosets type "Mistral" - the largest modern ships of landing forces, combining the functions vertoletonostsa and-ship dock. In Russia the Navy in size "Mistral" is second only to aircraft cruiser "Admiral Kuznetsov". Instead, they are able to provide a forum to any other ship.

    For example, he can deliver anywhere in the world of 450 marines and 60 pieces of equipment. In doing so, his main tactical advantage will be an opportunity to plant them at any unequipped shores, no approach to it. To do this on board can be placed 20 transport or attack helicopters, and the hold-ship dock hidden four hovercraft.

    The second "Mistral" - the high automation of management. Ship displacement of 21 tons is controlled by just 160 sailors, that such Makhin indeed a revolution. The "Admiral Kuznetsov", by the way, the crew of 1300 people. In France, the Navy now has two similar ships - the head "Mistral" and "Tonner. A third body, just as his French and ready to sell us.

    - At the level of rumors concluding such contracts is discussed for almost a year - told "Izvestiya" the chief editor of Moscow Defense Brief Mikhail Barabanov. - At a recent Naval Show in St. Petersburg head the Navy Vladimir Vysotsky conducted intense negotiations with the French, and very clearly said that Russia was ready to buy imported equipment. Bad is that our public know about these decisions only now and then from French newspapers.

    Officially, the Defense Ministry had no comment on the possibility of such a transaction. Silent, and the Navy. One of the reasons - the extreme unpopularity of such a decision. Indeed, construction of new ships has already been laid for the domestic fleet due to lack of money is extremely slow. For example, the Navy's largest acquisition since 2000, Russia became built over 20 years and put into operation this year, and has frankly antiquated sloop "Yaroslav the Wise." A small sloop "Daghestan" to build the Caspian Sea for 17 years. Head corvette new project 20380 "Stereguschy" (a small boat in 2000 tons with a weak weapon) is seven years. The second series of four corvettes come into operation not earlier than 2011. The three laid down for the Caspian flotilla of small artillery ships such as "Astrakhan" surrendered just one, but two others are on the stocks. The number of these same novostroyaschihsya ship itself is sad - so many warships of similar classes of orders now for their fleets only Morocco and Indonesia.

    A larger surface units do not have to say. In 2004, the factory "Yantar" was laid a large landing ship "Ivan Gren" new displacement of 11711 tons 5500 - until now it only exists in the form of separate sections. Founded in 2006, the new frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" of 4500 tons will be launched into the test, at best, no earlier than 2012, but the full construction of mass-produced vehicles of both types in the coming years can hardly read it.

    According to Barabanova, the price of the issue to the end of construction could increase in times. Now Moscow has insisted that vertoletonosets was designed for operation in arctic latitudes, and all military systems, communications, weapons, aircraft must be Russian. 20 transport helicopters type Ka-29 will cost, according to rough estimates, the additional 200 million euros. However, with a modern vision of the procurement of arms and military equipment may be purchased and French cars. For example, the NH90 helicopters for 30 million euros apiece.

    Do experts raises more questions than the sum of the transaction itself, as meaning the purchase of such equipment. Ferries type "Mistral" are intended to carry out expeditionary tasks. Unlike France, which has overseas colonies, the question arises as to where Russia plans to throw actual landing. In Somalia? In Georgia? And maybe, in the Crimea? No understanding of what forces and means to ensure the safety of navigation of such whopper. They simply do not have appropriate combat support.

    Dmitry Litovkin

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Известия.ru.

    Perhaps it would be easier to keep "Gorshkov" and not to buy "Mistral".

    finishing the highlighted ship would make more sense.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  soldieroffortune on Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:34 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.

    That's sad; corruption is still the key problem, maybe even more than before. On the other hand, Russia cannot rely solely on other countries when it comes to the arms for her Armed Forces. Since the "furniture salesman" took over the Defense Ministry I see the tendency of favoring buying arms and supplies instead of producing them.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:29 am

    soldieroffortune wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:
    soldieroffortune wrote:

    Sir Grand Marshal,

    The problem is (and it is a serious one): can the Russian industry build right now a comparable vessel for its Navy? There are many indication that unfortunately it is not so. What do you think?

    Comperable... definetly not unless you have 20 years to wait. Problem with the naval industry and large ships is corruption = Sevmash. As we have seen from the Gorshkov deal, it is broken from the top down. They can't even maintain the boilers on Admiral K. Maybe there is hope in the Far East yards, but then it is the Far East, king of abuse and corruption. The most corrupt part of our forces is Navy, so quite frankly I don't trust them to do much of anything.

    That's sad; corruption is still the key problem, maybe even more than before. On the other hand, Russia cannot rely solely on other countries when it comes to the arms for her Armed Forces. Since the "furniture salesman" took over the Defense Ministry I see the tendency of favoring buying arms and supplies instead of producing them.

    Corruption is a sad part of most industries in the world. Problem with Russia's was after the fall of the USSR, there was an over supply of defense industries and no one knew where what was going, and many closed down or went bankrupt (cause Russia tried to keep them all running). Once one was left, then problems arise. If Russia decided (since a lot of these companies are still state run) to move them to private (completely), then a companies main goal is "moola" and in order to get that, is constant R&D and sales. Once the other facility is done, production can increase, thus the sales could become more frequent.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:44 pm

    Russia set to purchase large French warship - top brass



    ULAN BATOR, August 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is planning on signing by the end of 2009 a contractual agreement with France on the purchase of a Mistral class amphibious assault ship, the chief of the Russian General Staff said on Wednesday.

    "We are planning to reach an agreement [with France] this year on the production and the purchase of a Mistral class vessel," Gen. Nikolai Makarov told a news conference in the Mongolian capital, Ulan Bator.

    "We are negotiating the purchase of one ship at present, and later planning to acquire 3-4 ships [of the same class] to be jointly built in Russia," the general said.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The vessel is equipped with a 69-bed hospital and could be used as an amphibious command ship.

    Makarov did not disclose the amount of the deal, but a high-ranking Russian source close to negotiations earlier said the ship could be worth between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 mln).

    The purchase, if successful, would be the first large-scale arms import deal concluded by Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

    Russia first expressed an interest in bilateral cooperation with France in naval equipment and technology in 2008, when Navy chief Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky visited the Euronaval 2008 arms show in France.

    The admiral said at the time that the Russian Navy was interested in "joint research and also direct purchases of French naval equipment."

    According to other military sources, the possibility of buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship was discussed at the naval show in St. Petersburg in June this year.

    Russia's current weapons procurement program through 2015 does not envision construction or purchases of large combat ships, so the possible acquisition of a French Mistral class ship is most likely to happen under the new program for the years up to 2020, which is still in the development.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090826/155931865.html
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:04 pm

    French ship Pugacheva
    28.08.2009

    The agreement to purchase French class amphibious assault ship, Mistral, and licenses it can be concluded before the end of the year. In Russia, construction license "Mistral" can do belongs to the senator Sergey Pugachev.

    Plan to buy class amphibious assault ship Mistral in France is officially recognized by the Ministry of Defense. Yesterday, in Mongolia, Chief of General Staff Nikolai Makarov, said (quoted by ITAR-TASS): "We are in negotiations to end of the year to reach the contractual obligations that will produce and purchase the ship type" Mistral ".

    Treasury officials left without comment the question of financing the purchase of the ship.

    So far, continued Makarov, this is one ship, but is expected to establish and production, to produce a series of four or five. Makarov gave assurances that the ships of this class (now they produce France and the Netherlands) proved to be positive during the service.

    Makarov also acknowledged that the Defense Ministry plans to purchase up to eight sets of equipment, an infantryman of the future "Felin French production - for testing.

    It is expected that in November, one of the French ships of the type "Mistral" will arrive in St. Petersburg on a visit there with him will be able to see more specialists, says the editor of the French military and strategic newsletter TTU Arnaud Kalika. French state shipyard DCNS, which build these ships, Russia is ready to transfer the license for the construction of "Mistral," says Kalika, but the first ship will be purchased in France. French Navy received two such ships, and another is in an unfinished state - the thing that will sell in Russia.

    According to the Kalika, a partner with Russia in the construction of "Mistral" is called the St. Petersburg Severnaya Verf. It is controlled by United Industrial Corporation (OPK), controlled by Tuvan senator Sergey Pugachev.

    The representative of the OPC refrained from comment. However, according to a source close to the management of the defense industry, such plans the corporation really is, now, their discussion is at a preliminary stage. Knows about such plans and defense industry source in the Defense Ministry.

    Draft of the ship may require alteration, Kalika says: it is designed without taking into account the need to adapt to the cold waters, which is based the bulk of Russia's fleet, the French have no experience of designing such ships.

    "Mistral" displacement of more than 20 000 tonnes has great autonomy, it can be based 450 Marines. On his arms are up to 16 assault helicopters, landing craft, the ship can be used as a headquarters and a hospital.

    Price "Mistral" for the French fleet - over 300 million euros, says expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, Konstantin Makiyenko. But, continues Makienko, the cost of such a ship during construction in Russia is likely to increase - will require an investment in the development of new production and who had no analogues in Russia and the Soviet Navy project. Thus, the construction of four ships in Russia in addition to one purchased in France can be up to 1.5 billion euros.

    This amount is likely to be many times higher than the annual cost of state defense order for the construction and maintenance of preparedness is really needed for Navy surface ships of Russia (they are not disclosed in the budget). Isolation of such a huge amount likely to have a devastating impact on their construction, ascertains Makienko. With the purchase of such a huge and expensive vehicle, as the "Mistral", which value is not obvious, and military-technical policy in Russia acquires the features of politics in India and other countries - importers of weapons, where many transactions are motivated by large commissions, expert suggests.

    Purchase "Mistral" seems questionable not only because it would deny funds for Russia's navy is much more needed projects, but also because for him at Russia's navy is no problems, said a naval expert Mikhail Barabanov. In western fleets task of such ships - overseas expeditionary operations, in which Russia does not need a flag to show her enough and the existing surface ships. Certainly the fleet unable to cope with the exploitation of such a large ship, which will be very costly, warns Reels: Navy can not properly repair Russia's largest ship - the aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov". If there is a need for political reasons to buy any weapons in France, then Russia could get there in such huge sums of money as it may require much more systems and technologies, primarily for the Air Force and Army, the expert said. In the end, even in its class "Mistral" is not the best example: he has a problem with seaworthiness, the ship lost its tender CPA Australia's Dutch-Spanish rival, concludes Barabanov.

    Права на данный материал принадлежат Ведомости.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:27 pm

    Russia to call tender for foreign helicopter carrier

    RIA Novosti

    11/09/200917:20

    KALININGRAD, September 11 (RIA Novosti) - Russia plans to hold an international tender for the purchase of a helicopter carrier, involving France, Spain and the Netherlands, the country's Navy chief said on Friday.

    "I can confirm that negotiations are being held, but there is likely to be a tender," Adm. Vladimir Vysotsky said, adding that other countries could also be involved.

    He said there were no negotiations with the United States - "for understandable reasons," adding that the U.S. authorities were "highly sensitive" about the transfer of new technology, especially dual-purpose technology.

    The admiral stressed, however, that technology transfer was a key condition for buying a helicopter carrier abroad.

    He said the Russian Navy needed a new warship to enhance its combat effectiveness.

    "Take, for example, last August, Georgia. Everything that we did in the space of 26 hours at the time, this ship will do within 40 minutes," Vysotsky said.

    He said the new warship would require appropriate port infrastructure, which had yet to be built.

    The Navy chief also denied reports that Russia had plans to buy submarines in Germany.

    "There is no question of buying [German] submarines. Actually, the Germans do not make diesel-electric submarines," he said.

    However, he added that Russia might be interested in acquiring advanced submarine engine technology, but it was not necessarily German.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2009/russia-090911-rianovosti02.htm

    but with Mistral purchase this does not make any sense
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:32 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    but with Mistral purchase this does not make any sense

    It must be part of the same deal opening up to competition. I want to see us buy an LHP that can function as both carrier and LPD. Juan Carlos with some deck mods would do nicely.
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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:14 am

    Russia to decide on purchase of French warship by October
    RIA Novosti

    10:06 15/09/2009 MOSCOW, September 15 (RIA Novosti) - Technical discussions between Russia and France on buying a Mistral class amphibious assault ship should be completed soon, with a decision on the purchase to follow from Moscow, a source close to the negotiations said on Tuesday.

    "We are holding technical consultations, which are expected to be completed by the end of September. The results will be reported to Russia's military-industrial commission in order to determine the viability of the purchase," the source said.

    He added that a group of Russian naval officers had already inspected a Mistral class ship at a French naval base in Toulon.

    "The officers were shown the interior of the ship and provided with technical data," the official said.

    The source denied media reports that Russia was considering alternative purchases of the same type of warship from other countries, including the Netherlands and Spain.

    "These countries also build amphibious assault ships of a similar class, but we have not considered their offers so far," he said.

    A Mistral class ship is capable of transporting and deploying 16 helicopters, four landing barges, up to 70 vehicles including 13 main battle tanks, and 450 soldiers. The vessel is equipped with a 69-bed hospital and can be used as an amphibious command ship.

    The ship could cost between 300 and 400 million euros ($430-580 million).

    Gen. Nikolai Makarov, the chief of the Russian General Staff, said in August that Russia was negotiating the purchase of one ship at present, and later planning to acquire 3-4 ships of the same class to be jointly built in Russia.

    Some Russian military experts have questioned the purchase both from the financial and military standpoint.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2009/russia-090915-rianovosti01.htm
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    Jelena

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    Re: Mistral News thread

    Post  Jelena on Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:41 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    The Navy chief also denied reports that Russia had plans to buy submarines in Germany.

    "There is no question of buying [German] submarines. Actually, the Germans do not make diesel-electric submarines," he said.


    1. Germans do make those submarines!
    2. I still don't understand why Russia needs to buy Mistral class ship and rely on HATO technology, while cutting 200 billion of rubles in 2009 on "research and development"? To me there is no logic in that... dunno

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