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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

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    Post  Hole on Sun May 19, 2019 8:46 am

    Two were hit. One was repaired and put be into service.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Sun May 19, 2019 10:18 am

    Those phantasious tales around the losses of two Панцирь-С1 (export version of Панцирь-C) vehicles......not batteries......operated by Syria have reached a truly ridiculous level.

    Facts are that the two Панцирь-С1 vehicles hit (the first of last year damaged well whitin repair) was:  

    1) Not operative
    2) Not being part of a battery
    3) Employed in locally fixed positions  
    4) Devoid of local EW coverage that would have very easily broken the remote over the horizon man-in-the-loop uplink with the loitering munitions in the area (one of, if not the, most frail among that employed in PGM terminal homing)
    5) Devoid of typical battery masking support like, fixed/mobile decoy and IR/optical masking aerosol and camo-nets.  
     
    The reason for those odd instances is simple : Syria has a very very limited amount of serviceable Панцирь-С1s (representing also the unique truly modern SHORAD at its disposition) and therefore , in plain war, is forced to split those precious resources among all the most potential sensible targets over its territory contemporaneously also limiting theirs mobility (to avoid to leave those targets uncovered), this generate a situation where important airfields, command centers or radar stations are covered often by a single Панцирь-С1 vehicle, with at maximum some old "Оса" system as back-up aid and without the usual complement of EW and masking assets.
    Even in those conditions those single Панцирь-С1s often thwart single-handedly Israely stand-off air attacks !; that is also the reason for which IAF always attempt to take them out with "opportunity" attacks with loitering optically guided PGMs.  
    Trained or slighltly trained operators are also very few, with the result that normal cycles of turnation is enormously stretched among Syrians crew ,with the result that some of those operators are tempted to take some unwise "breaks" from those incredibly long and stressing turns ,when an attack appear to have stoped.  


    About the first point is important to  note: as already previously explained, also the hypothesis that the two vehicles in question had depleted all theirs missiles and that was this supposedly the reason for which them was unmanned and out of work ,waiting for the reload, do no hold any water; in facts the low subsonic ammunitions employed to hit those vehicles represent a trivial target for the Панцирь-С1's twinned autocannon at range of 2 Km or less  (the probability to hit a similar very slow target, for single autocannons salvo, are close to 1 at similar range with even 3 or 4 chance of re-engagement in the rare event that a similar target will survive the first attempt) and the reloading protocol for forcibly stationary and insulated Панцирь vehicles having depleted the missile load -therefore uncapable to defend other assets from enemy attacks - foresee the transition to authomatic engagement with the twinned autocannon for self-protection up to the arrival of the reloading vehicle.
    Therefore those two attack events publicized by part of IAF, employing we must remember exclusively man-on-the-loop optically guided low subsonic ammunitions, represent simply two instances ,among several dozen, where those attempts of opportunity to take out insulated Панцирь-C1 have encountered the "collaboration" of patentely unprofessional Syrian operators.
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    Post  dino00 on Mon May 27, 2019 12:18 pm

    pantsir-SM will be presented at Army2019

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6474593
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 28, 2019 2:49 am

    And also in english...

    http://tass.com/defense/1060201
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:28 pm

    The source told, when the tests of the Pantsir-SM air defense complex are over

    MOSCOW, Jun 4 - RIA News. State tests of the latest anti-aircraft missile-cannon complex "Pantsir-SM" will be completed in 2021, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.
    According to him, the new complex will receive a missile with more than doubled speed (three thousand meters per second versus 1.3 thousand meters per second of the 57E6E rocket of the Pantsir-S1 complex).
    The interlocutor of the agency noted that all the Pantsiri-SM will be built from scratch, since the Pantsiri-C1 cannot be upgraded to such a level.
    At the same time, the source noted that their characteristics in the future can be significantly improved.

    https://ria.ru/20190604/1555232485.html

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:30 pm

    3km/s is like 9Ma wow. BTW Pantsir-S1 ceiling was 15,000m I wonder what will value for be SM edition...
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:07 am

    If they can manage about 18-20km altitude then you can bet the F-35s wont be overflying them... and their high viz gray camouflage will make them much easier to track optically...

    With such a launch speed you could reduce the warhead from its 20-30kgs and replace it with a 15kg rod of DU down the core of the last stage with a scramjet motor to maintain speed and use it as a kinetic weapon against enemy armour... moving at 3km per second the penetration performance of a 15kg DU penetrator would be eye watering... no tank would be safe...

    I had read about new boosters giving 1.7km per sec speed on launch, but 3km/s is really impressive...
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    Post  Arrow on Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:36 am

    I had read about new boosters giving 1.7km per sec speed on launch, but 3km/s is really impressive... wrote:

    How is this possible?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:12 am

    Well it could be a combination of a much bigger booster section that is both wider and longer... it does mention in the article that the new missile cannot be used on older S1 vehicle mounts which suggests it is too big to fit the space provided for those missile tubes.

    The missiles are also two stage missiles which generally has an unpowered final stage that relies on its narrow long aerodynamic shape to reduce speed loss in flight... I remember reading somewhere it loses about 44m/s of speed every second due to drag... obviously if it was turning hard it would lose speed rather more rapidly, but from 1.3km/s losing 0.044km/s every second is not that important considering it will only be in the air for 10-20 seconds or so... the first second will be accelerating to 1.3km/s, so the next second it would slow down to 1.256km/s and the third second of flight it will be moving at 1.212km/s... fourth second it would be moving at 1.168 km/s and the fifth second 1.124km/s, then the sixth second it will be moving at 1.080km/s and th seventh second at 1.036km/s... it wont be until the eight second that it gets below 1km per second at 992m/s... by which time it will have travelled 9km and hit most of the targets it was launched at.

    For longer ranged targets it would have been lofted into the air so the drag would actually be reduced because it would gain speed from gravity.

    For targets to the original missiles range of 8km and then 12km and then 20km for the S1 they decided it was not needed for any propulsion for the terminal portion of the missile... a narrow slim missile was considered adequate.

    The new missile is intended for engagements to 45km and beyond so a small scramjet motor and small fuel supply could very easily be fitted to boost range and terminal performance out to extended range and altitudes.

    I suspect they just developed a new rather more powerful booster.... note the boosters used so far are standard solid rocket boosters used for sounding rockets... 1.3km/s and 1.7km/s were the specs for two solid rocket boosters advertised in publications I read in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

    I would expect new propellants and simply larger boosters have been developed since then...
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:58 pm

    Creation of ZRPK "Pantsir-SM" will be completed by 2021

    Creation of the newest anti-aircraft missile-cannon complex "Pantsir-SM" will be completed in 2021. This was announced by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu at the board of the Ministry of Defense on the implementation of state defense orders.

    According to the minister, the complex is a deeply modernized version of Pantsir-S.

    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content/20196191633-Bgx9h.html
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:09 pm

    Well here's the Pantsir-SM

    So from the pics we can see that the guns remain, has a new radar and a armoured cabin for the crew

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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jun 22, 2019 11:23 pm

    And one more from the front

    click
    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 39 Th_245696450_Armija_2019_122_699lo
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    Post  hoom on Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:09 am

    Single sided version of the S2 radar?
    Or an all new radar?
    Got the new bigger engagement antenna with the horn out the front.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:41 am

    hoom wrote:Single sided version of the S2 radar?
    Or an all new radar?
    Got the new bigger engagement antenna with the horn out the front.

    I haven't come across any official info on the radar yet....there's some talk it might be the same radar as on the naval pantsir or maybe based on it
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:56 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    hoom wrote:Single sided version of the S2 radar?
    Or an all new radar?
    Got the new bigger engagement antenna with the horn out the front.

    I haven't come across any official info on the radar yet....there's some talk it might be the same radar as on the naval pantsir or maybe based on it

    Pantsir-S1 News Thread: - Page 39 Pantsi11




    Apparently it'll eventually make it's way on to a Kurganetz chassis, and be the 'official' replacement for Tunguska.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:14 pm


    Wasn't it posted here that Pantsir is completely useless and that MoD is insisting on replacement with Tor or some completely new?
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:32 pm

    Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    All model Pantsirs are excellent air defence missile systems, but they are not perfect and have some limitations.

    Improved versions are developed based on actual experience so any failings are brought out in actual combat use and improvements are added to the design to make them even more capable.

    There has never been a situation in Russia where Pantsir is used on its own... it will always be part of the defence network and in Army units it is always used with TOR and other systems.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Wasn't it posted here that Pantsir is completely useless and that MoD is insisting on replacement with Tor or some completely new?

    Not useless. S1 proved to be nowhere near tor but it is not that bad. It has difficulties with small drones and low flying at low speed targets. However it proved to be able to deal with "normal" targets like grad rockets, medium flying military drones and cruise missiles.

    S2 was already started since long ago while SM is a variant that include experience in Syria. They want it to be able to destroy conventional targets but also guerilla targets like civilian small drones ...

    S1 is still very good at destroying Tomahawks and cheaper than S2 or SM.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    No, it was written by someone from the mod staff, that's why I remembered it

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less


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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Wasn't it posted here that Pantsir is completely useless and that MoD is insisting on replacement with Tor or some completely new?

    It was nothing more than hyperbole, Mindstorm has already explained it, the media personality (who speaks on military affairs) just reposted something on his VK/Facebook, which he eventually took down the post. It had absolutely nothing to do with MOD staff, nor were they involved in any way.
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    Post  dino00 on Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:22 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    No, it was written by someone from the mod staff, that's why I remembered it

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less



    It wasn't from mod staff, supposedly was a Russian expert, but Russians from this forum explained that not even that was true.

    Pantsyr-S proved its worth, Pantsyr-S1 in the hands of not so professional, and isolated, is another story.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    No, it was written by someone from the mod staff, that's why I remembered it

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less



    It wasn't from mod staff, supposedly was a Russian expert, but Russians from this forum explained that not even that was true.

    Pantsyr-S proved its worth, Pantsyr-S1 in the hands of not so professional, and isolated, is another story.

    Yeah, the military affairs personality just reposted something on his VK/Livejournal, and he eventually took the post down.
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    Post  nero on Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Wasn't it posted here that Pantsir is completely useless and that MoD is insisting on replacement with Tor or some completely new?
    If the Pantsir system was useless, it wouldn't have been introduced into the Russian Armed Forces to start with. They test these systems rather intensively before they are brought into actual combat. Additionally, they've proved their worth in Syria many times over.

    Main issue, if anything, is a small amount of ready-to-fire missiles and the guns cannot hit small fast flying targets due to the bullet spread. This is being fixed by creating a more variable loadout configuration that the Pantsirs will have, with some smaller missiles meant to combat speedy small drones.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:24 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Written by the Russian media equivalent of Vann I suspect...

    No, it was written by someone from the mod staff, that's why I remembered it

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less



    It was Vladimir
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:47 am

    If it were Vann I couldn't have cared less

    I know what you mean... Surprised

    Yeah, the military affairs personality just reposted something on his VK/Livejournal, and he eventually took the post down.

    I seem to remember George posting it, but not commenting on it one way or another... a few other people commented on it including myself who mentioned that the early model missiles were intended for use against helos and fairly straight flying ATGM threats in flight so their ability to hit hard jinking evasive targets was limited, but that the new small missiles designed to fit four to a single launch tube as well as newer missiles were designed to hit evading and erratic targets that were trying to destroy air defence systems rather than the targets they were protecting.

    If the Pantsir system was useless, it wouldn't have been introduced into the Russian Armed Forces to start with. They test these systems rather intensively before they are brought into actual combat. Additionally, they've proved their worth in Syria many times over.

    There is a constant battle of measure and counter measure so the SA-6 missile systems were great when first used but weaknesses were found and exploited, but replacement systems fill those gaps and made the BUK system potent again. Without being used in a conflict they realised such a system would be vulnerable to ARMs so they upgraded it from the SA-11 to SA-17, which could shoot down ARMs and had further optical guidance options added...

    Air defence systems have faced Israeli and US attack before and often don't come out very well... currently they have lost two Pantsir systems that were not operating as part of a network or a battery protected with mutual support... against the Israelis with US assistance... that is censored amazing performance that a third world country with nukes could develop and deploy such a system can only prove out previous assessments of it being a third world country as being the bullshit it is.

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