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Now Ria is parroting the 10,000 km number that Izvestia made up
?
Oy.
?
Oy.
Russian Cruise Missiles Thread
TR1- Posts : 5552
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George1- Posts : 15960
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TR1 wrote:Now Ria is parroting the 10,000 km number that Izvestia made up
?
Oy.
why not? this is not a simple cruise missile, this a super super cruise missile
TR1- Posts : 5552
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Given the size of the missile, it is very much impossible.
The range has always been stated as 5,000 KM, and then suddenly Izvestya pops up the 10k number.
The range has always been stated as 5,000 KM, and then suddenly Izvestya pops up the 10k number.
GarryB- Posts : 28671
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Well, this is a two ton missile, and the range of such a weapon would be greatly effected by its chosen flight profile and speed.
A lower power setting for the engine, along with a high flight profile to maximise range and it could probably greatly increase its flight performance... actually it would be a great way to get around the INF treaty as the INF treaty bans ground launched missiles... ballistic and cruise missiles, with a range of 500km to 5,500km, so making a cruise missile with a flight range of 6,000km or more means ground based missiles become legal.
A lower power setting for the engine, along with a high flight profile to maximise range and it could probably greatly increase its flight performance... actually it would be a great way to get around the INF treaty as the INF treaty bans ground launched missiles... ballistic and cruise missiles, with a range of 500km to 5,500km, so making a cruise missile with a flight range of 6,000km or more means ground based missiles become legal.
eridan- Posts : 164
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taking the info at face value, precision of 10 meters isn't really that good for this day and age.
Also, what sort of sensors does the missile use, since it is claimed to be able to hit moving targets. (why would a strategic missile of 5000 km range need to hit anything other than fixed targets is beyond me though)
Also, what sort of sensors does the missile use, since it is claimed to be able to hit moving targets. (why would a strategic missile of 5000 km range need to hit anything other than fixed targets is beyond me though)
GarryB- Posts : 28671
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Its official accuracy is given as 10m, just like the CEP for Iskander is 10m but impacts of 3m or less were common in tests.
With a 400kg HE warhead for the cruise missile and about 600kgs for the Russian model of Iskander, a 10m level of accuracy is good enough for most targets. Against area targets like a group of vehicles then a cluster warhead payload can be used too.
Obviously for nuclear payloads this is far better accuracy than is needed.
AFAIK it has optical terminal guidance that includes night capability.
The ability to hit moving targets would largely be useful against ships, though the ability to hit moving targets suggests the ability to find its target even if it wasn't where it was supposed to be.
With a 400kg HE warhead for the cruise missile and about 600kgs for the Russian model of Iskander, a 10m level of accuracy is good enough for most targets. Against area targets like a group of vehicles then a cluster warhead payload can be used too.
Obviously for nuclear payloads this is far better accuracy than is needed.
AFAIK it has optical terminal guidance that includes night capability.
The ability to hit moving targets would largely be useful against ships, though the ability to hit moving targets suggests the ability to find its target even if it wasn't where it was supposed to be.
Mindstorm- Posts : 1070
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taking the info at face value, precision of 10 meters isn't really that good for this day and age.
Oh my....
Over and over and over alaways the same mistakes : in Russian literature missile's precision is expressed in Maximum Error Value or Index of Maximum Error (about 2,68 times the miss distance's standard deviation ), a measure about equal to 2,3 times the western CEP - Circular Error Probability .
Therefore, if the information come from a Russian sources, in order to find the corresponding CEP of the Kh-101, you must divide the figure provided for 2,3.
GarryB- Posts : 28671
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For those who are not sure what Mindstorm means let me give a short explanation.
Very simply CEP or circular error probability is a measure of probable accuracy.
It is determined using a standard bell curve of results.
If you look at a standard bell curve most of the results are in the middle and are average while the very high and very low results are rare so you end up with a line that is on the zero line for 1 and 0 and bulges up around 0.5 in the middle forming a bell shape.
It is zero for 1 and 0 because you can't have a probability of 100% certainty, just as you can't guarantee a zero% certainty either... 1 meaning no matter what it will always hit the target no matter how many times it is fired, and a 0 meaning it will never hit the target no matter how many times it is fired.
Well that is not totally true... a Scud missile has a zero probability of hitting a target 10,000km away, but we are talking about a measure of precision on a target that is within reach.
In the west a common measure is a CEP of 50% accuracy. In other words a CEP of 10m at 50% probability means that if you draw a circle around the point you are aiming for with a radius of 10m then 50% of the time the round or weapon will land within that circle. It basically equates to the middle section of the bell curve where the majority of the data occurs.
In this case however the Russians are using the much stricter measure of CEP using the 95% accuracy, which can be derived from the CEP of 50% by multiplying it by 2.3.
Which would give you the 95% CEP rating... if the same weapon had a CEP 50% of 10m then the CEP 95% would be 2.3 times larger, or 23m in radius.
The best accuracy is CEP 99% which is 4 times the 50% CEP and would include many of the terminal phase malfunctions and of course high speed cross winds near the target and other natural effects that reduce accuracy.
CEP 100% would include a failure to launch and therefore would be the radius of the range to the target.
Different levels of probability are used for different purposes... 50% is often good enough for most tasks, and results in a nice small number that is good for marketing.
95% is a more realistic reflection of reality.
Of course the real problem is that some weapons might have better accuracy in a particular axis, so for instance a 122mm artillery shell might have a normal impact zone 60m long at 9km range, but the horizontal impact zone is only about 9m, so its impact zone is a long oval shape rather than a circle, and impact points for guided and unguided rounds are rarely so evenly distributed in a nice bell curve, so it is really an indicator more than anything else.
The fact is that more often than not the projectile will land near the aim point and will only very rarely hit it dead on.
Very simply CEP or circular error probability is a measure of probable accuracy.
It is determined using a standard bell curve of results.
If you look at a standard bell curve most of the results are in the middle and are average while the very high and very low results are rare so you end up with a line that is on the zero line for 1 and 0 and bulges up around 0.5 in the middle forming a bell shape.
It is zero for 1 and 0 because you can't have a probability of 100% certainty, just as you can't guarantee a zero% certainty either... 1 meaning no matter what it will always hit the target no matter how many times it is fired, and a 0 meaning it will never hit the target no matter how many times it is fired.
Well that is not totally true... a Scud missile has a zero probability of hitting a target 10,000km away, but we are talking about a measure of precision on a target that is within reach.
In the west a common measure is a CEP of 50% accuracy. In other words a CEP of 10m at 50% probability means that if you draw a circle around the point you are aiming for with a radius of 10m then 50% of the time the round or weapon will land within that circle. It basically equates to the middle section of the bell curve where the majority of the data occurs.
In this case however the Russians are using the much stricter measure of CEP using the 95% accuracy, which can be derived from the CEP of 50% by multiplying it by 2.3.
Which would give you the 95% CEP rating... if the same weapon had a CEP 50% of 10m then the CEP 95% would be 2.3 times larger, or 23m in radius.
The best accuracy is CEP 99% which is 4 times the 50% CEP and would include many of the terminal phase malfunctions and of course high speed cross winds near the target and other natural effects that reduce accuracy.
CEP 100% would include a failure to launch and therefore would be the radius of the range to the target.
Different levels of probability are used for different purposes... 50% is often good enough for most tasks, and results in a nice small number that is good for marketing.
95% is a more realistic reflection of reality.
Of course the real problem is that some weapons might have better accuracy in a particular axis, so for instance a 122mm artillery shell might have a normal impact zone 60m long at 9km range, but the horizontal impact zone is only about 9m, so its impact zone is a long oval shape rather than a circle, and impact points for guided and unguided rounds are rarely so evenly distributed in a nice bell curve, so it is really an indicator more than anything else.
The fact is that more often than not the projectile will land near the aim point and will only very rarely hit it dead on.
dionis- Posts : 61
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So what's the latest on the Kh-555 and Kh-101 for range and warhead size?
Both can also hit moving targets? Like a ship?
Both can also hit moving targets? Like a ship?
Austin- Posts : 7618
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Cruise Missile Engine Manufacturing Localized
NPO Saturn and state machine-building design bureau Raduga officially announced on Monday an agreement to manufacture cruise missile engines worth 4 billion rubles ($120 million).
The engines are intended for various ground, sea and air-based missiles, including the Kh-55 cruise missile installed on Tu-95MS aircraft.
"We plan to produce over 1,500 such engines per year," said Ilya Fyodorov, managing director of NPO Saturn.
Previous engines for strategic nuclear missiles were mostly made by Ukrainian manufacturer Motor Sich.
"Strategic air and sea-based missiles should not depend on other countries, even friendly states, for major parts supply. So we are now organizing local engine production," Fyodorov said.
He also said that the price of the new engine will be competitive with the Ukrainian equivalent while having better performance results in terms of fuel consumption and weight, which means missiles equipped with it will be able to travel longer distances.
The news followed a recent statement by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu who said Russia was going to increase its stock of cruise missiles five-fold within the next three years.
"A long-term contract like the one we have signed will make it possible for us to plan ahead and to adjust our production facilities accordingly," Fyodorov said.
The contract is to be implemented over three years, from 2013 to 2015.
Saturn's new manufacturing program has grown 250 percent compared to the previous three-year production plan. It's factory in Rybinsk in Yaroslavl region will now start to produce missile engines at the rate it did before the collapse of the Soviet Union.
This is all a result of the government's strategy to substitute military imports with local production.
While the defense industry saw payment delays in the past, suppliers are now more satisfied with funding flow. "We do not have any problems with the defense ministry today, all contracts have been signed," Fedorov said.
Government officials have said that when local manufacturers lack the expertise to make a particular military component, they should endeavor to purchase the technology, not just the product itself. This is a key element of the Kremlin's stated goal of modernizing 70 percent of the military's hardware by 2020.
In 2010, state company Rosoboronprom signed a contract with Israel Aerospace Industries to assemble Israel's drones Searcher MkII and Bird Eye 400 at a factory in Yekaterinburg.
The locally assembled drones are now being called Forpost and Zastava. In 2011, the defense ministry signed a contract to supply 10 Forpost systems for a total of 9 billion rubles and 27 smaller Zastava systems.
"If we do not understand today that a new revolution in the way war is made has already happened — that it is done with high-precision weapon systems — we will miss this revolution the same way we missed drone systems and a lot more before," Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said at a defense conference organized by Rossiiskaya Gazeta at the end of June. "We cannot make a second mistake here or we will fall behind forever," he added.
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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@Austin If I where you you would have this part of the text bold 
Basically what they are saying is that:
- 1500 engines for cruise missiles will be produced per year (meaning 1500 cruise missiles per year)
- 80 000E per engine
- 2.5 times increased production capacity of NPO Saturn in the last three years
- contract are signed and financing is without problems
Basically what they are saying is that:
- 1500 engines for cruise missiles will be produced per year (meaning 1500 cruise missiles per year)
- 80 000E per engine
- 2.5 times increased production capacity of NPO Saturn in the last three years
- contract are signed and financing is without problems
NPO Saturn and state machine-building design bureau Raduga officially announced on Monday an agreement to manufacture cruise missile engines worth 4 billion rubles ($120 million).
"We plan to produce over 1,500 such engines per year," said Ilya Fyodorov, managing director of NPO Saturn
"Strategic air and sea-based missiles should not depend on other countries, even friendly states, for major parts supply. So we are now organizing local engine production," Fyodorov said.
Saturn's new manufacturing program has grown 250 percent compared to the previous three-year production plan. It's factory in Rybinsk in Yaroslavl region will now start to produce missile engines at the rate it did before the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Austin- Posts : 7618
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1500 engine does not mean 1500 cruise missile many of them could be spares and few could be replacing faulty engines etc also these engines might also be developed for Club , Kh-59 and other turbofan curise missile for export.
They are replacing Ukranian engine with Russian one
They are replacing Ukranian engine with Russian one
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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Austin wrote:1500 engine does not mean 1500 cruise missile many of them could be spares and few could be replacing faulty engines etc also these engines might also be developed for Club , Kh-59 and other turbofan curise missile for export.
They are replacing Ukranian engine with Russian one
I think it means 1500 new cruise missiles. Why?
- because we had info that Russian cruise missile stock will grow 5 times in the next three years and 30 times by 2020
- because even If you replace every single old engine of the cruise missiles and leave some in stock (and make a spare parts depot) what are you going to do next
year?
- besides Russia will certainly not change working Ukrainian engines in its cruise missiles with another Russian engines just to squeeze out 100 more miles in range
it will spend the missiles or phase out them as they expire and replace them with Kh-101 and others - new ones.
TheArmenian- Posts : 1883
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Austin wrote:1500 engine does not mean 1500 cruise missile many of them could be spares and few could be replacing faulty engines etc also these engines might also be developed for Club , Kh-59 and other turbofan curise missile for export.
Actually it does mean 1500 new cruise missiles.
There is hardly any need for spare engines for cruise missiles as they don't get worn out....After all, they are used only once.
As Viktor mentioned, Cruise missile procurement by Russia is going to increase exponentially. There may also be substantial export orders of CLUB series and other cruise missiles.
TR1- Posts : 5552
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1500 cruise missiles per year?
Guys...come on.
Even if we include Kalibr, it won't come out to 1500 missiles per year, not even close.
Hell the USSR never made that many.
I think when he said 1500 engines, he meant not just cruise missiles in the traditional sense (Kh-101, Kalibr, etc) but tactical weapons as well. The number becomes a bit more believable then.
Guys...come on.
Even if we include Kalibr, it won't come out to 1500 missiles per year, not even close.
Hell the USSR never made that many.
I think when he said 1500 engines, he meant not just cruise missiles in the traditional sense (Kh-101, Kalibr, etc) but tactical weapons as well. The number becomes a bit more believable then.
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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TR1 wrote:1500 cruise missiles per year?
Guys...come on.
Even if we include Kalibr, it won't come out to 1500 missiles per year, not even close.
Hell the USSR never made that many.
I think when he said 1500 engines, he meant not just cruise missiles in the traditional sense (Kh-101, Kalibr, etc) but tactical weapons as well. The number becomes a bit more believable then.
Of course tactical weapons are included but tactical weapons have up to 500km range and 1500 of cruise missiles (no matter what type) is just great.
GarryB- Posts : 28671
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"Strategic air and sea-based missiles should not depend on other countries, even friendly states, for major parts supply. So we are now organizing local engine production," Fyodorov said.
So Russian engines will now power all Russian cruise missiles... this is excellent and will likely result in performance increases... why would they wait till now to introduce Russian engines? Clearly they have engines that exceed foreign models ready for production and so they will introduce them now.
Regarding 1,500 new missiles per year... of the missile types that can be fired by UKSK launchers on all new Russian naval vessels (surface and subsurface) the Klub and Kalibr missiles... ie three stage antiship with solid rocket launch, subsonic jet cruise and solid rocket terminal phase, plus the two stage solid rocket launch and subsonic all the way to target anti ship and land attack missiles will need these engines too.
Corvettes with 8 launch tubes, Frigates with 16, Destroyers with 32 or more and cruisers with 80 launch tubes each they are going to need a lot of missiles to fill those tubes...
Add to that the air launched versions of Klub and missiles like Kh-59/MK (AS-13/-18) and they will need lots of engines.
In addition I rather suspect that a cruise missile engine would be rather useful for various UAV and UCAV designs... perhaps even as a pod mounted booster engine for takeoff that contains the engine, fuel, and a recovery parachute for large light aircraft/glider like UAVs.
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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Video of ALL eventViktor wrote:Voley of ICBM/SLBM/S-300/S-400/Pancir-S1/Bastion/Tochka/Iskander fired - like its a Russian New Year or something
The newest part - antiballistic missile shield has been tested too - WoW
Two Russian submarine launched ballistic missile during a test
SRF launched missile "Topol" and "Governor" during surprise inspections
Space Forces launched missiles S-300 and S-400 at the time of inspection
Black Sea sailors checked the accuracy of the "Bastion"
There were also four launches were conducted tactical missiles "Iskander" and "Tochka-U"
The successful launch of missile defense test conducted as part of the Russian Armed Forces
gaurav- Posts : 377
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Video of ALL event
Ultimate.. !
I have one question to Victor .. what was the type of missile that was launched from TU-95MS air craft...
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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It is Kh-555 cruise missile. ... I like the Russian new found transparency - lots of good info and pictured and all
... I like the Russian new found transparency - lots of good info and pictured and all
TR1- Posts : 5552
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Might be a Kh-55SM no?
gaurav- Posts : 377
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Thanks Victor..
So it seems they are not yet testing new air launched missles ..
Perhaps they will test it from tu-160 and TU-22M3 bombers..
So it seems they are not yet testing new air launched missles ..
Perhaps they will test it from tu-160 and TU-22M3 bombers..
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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Testing of newer versions of Kh-101/102 is over and they are in production now. The thing that they did not fire those missiles does not mean a thing. Kh-101/102/Kalibr etc allgaurav wrote:Thanks Victor..
So it seems they are not yet testing new air launched missles ..
Perhaps they will test it from tu-160 and TU-22M3 bombers..
passed military testing. Russia recently announced that they will produce 1500 cruise missiles (of all types) annually so there will be plenty of time to see them in action.
Viktor- Posts : 5814
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6 Kh-101/2 (most likely cruise missiles fired from Tu-95MS)
Strategic bomber Tu-95MS cruise missile launches conducted on range on the Kamchatka Peninsula
Strategic bomber Tu-95MS cruise missile launches conducted on range on the Kamchatka Peninsula
"One strategic bomber Tu-95MS bombers carried launches six new high-precision cruise missiles, air-launched using a multifunctional launcher ground targets on the Kura testing range aviation. Crew clearly worked on flight tasks, learning objectives at the site were amazed," -
Mike E- Posts : 2640
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It has been confirmed the 6 missiles fired were of the Kh-101/2 "class".
Bummer there is little information to be found on these missiles, maybe more info will leak out in the near future.
Bummer there is little information to be found on these missiles, maybe more info will leak out in the near future.
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