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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49

    Godric
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    Post  Godric Sun Oct 15, 2023 5:22 pm

    kvs wrote:Regarding taking out bunkers, some sort of small thermobaric device would do wonders.   The oxygen would be consumed and lots of CO produced which would kill everyone inside.  

    WW2 man portable flame throwers would be far more effective, they did the job against the nazis bunkers and fortifications, seeing a wall off flames heading towards you is a massive fear motivation for the opposing forces

    like the ROKS 3 Soviet Flame thrower

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sun Oct 15, 2023 6:29 pm

    They relied upon overwhelming infantry tactics to get close and where notoriously risky to use due to the gas.

    There were also very few alternatives back then to bunker busting, you usually had to storm the bunkers in WW2 at a high cost of men.

    Russia doesn't have overwhelming infantry forces in Ukraine for this, and why send waves of guys to get mowed down when you can just use a missile...

    War has changed since WW2

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:01 pm

    The Russians do not need WW1 era flamethrowers when they have weapons like the TOS-1 rocket flamethrower and the man portable RPO-A Shmel.

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    Post  mnztr Sun Oct 15, 2023 7:05 pm

    lancelot wrote:The Russians do not need WW1 era flamethrowers when they have weapons like the TOS-1 rocket flamethrower and the man portable RPO-A Shmel.


    If you hit a bunker like that with TOS-1 at regular intervals, say 1 rocket every 2 min, wouldn't everyone suffocate from lack of oxygen pretty quickly?
    Ispan
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    Post  Ispan Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:03 pm

    Latest update on the overall situation, I was writing a report, but didn't finish it, so saw this and thought it was pretty good so I fixed the translation

    https://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/2023/10/15/la-situacion-en-avdeyevka-y-kupyansk/

    original source for the Russian speakers

    https://antimaydan.info/2023/10/situaciya_pod_avdeevkoj_i_kupyanskom_nachalo_nastupleniya_ili_otvlekaushi.html

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    Post  Belisarius Sun Oct 15, 2023 9:17 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 Img_2367

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:36 pm

    Belisarius wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 Img_2367

    Well boo hoo, Russia ran out of rockets in March 2022 and has been using washing machines and laen mowers and other appliances ever since. They are now in negative numbers in terms of drones and have been using various types of potted plants like geraniums ever since. Tulips or a particularly devastating sort have replaced artillery. So come on lame Brittney, stop making excuses and man up. . . .

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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 16, 2023 11:03 am

    This way the engine only runs for a certain time. Iskander, like any other ballistic missile, flies for a long period without propulsion

    You are not getting it are you.

    Look at the image I posted... you can see tiny fixed fins and inside the engine exhaust you can see four thrust deflectors that are used to deflect the rocket thrust to manouver and steer the missile from launch to impact.

    Think about it for a minute... if the rocket burns for only seconds or a minute to climb and accelerate the missile then why bother with thrust deflecting control surfaces in the rocket motor exhaust... surely if the fins moved and could steer the missile they would make more sense to use at launch and in cruise than when falling on the target... why accept a 10-15% loss of thrust when redirecting the rocket exhaust plume in flight with TVC if you can just use an external flight control?

    It flies along a ballistic path only on a very low, flat trajectory, it can also perform maneuvers, but at the end it performs maneuvers with aerodynamic controls.

    So what you are saying is that it flys along a ballistic path and that it doesn't. A low flat trajectory is NOT a ballistic path.

    So what you are saying is that it launches from the launcher and turns over at low altitude and flys towards the target... that would be a low and flat trajectory... the rocket motor burns out on the way and it manouvers and falls on the target while unpowered and it uses the tiny fixed fins to steer evading enemy SAMs and hitting the target precisely.

    So those thrust vectoring devices in the rocket motor are only used just after launch to turn the missile into the direction of the target and then when the rocket fuel runs out they do nothing at all?

    This missile is supposed to evade enemy SAMs and other air defences with those tiny little fins...? which don't move by the way.

    That's not what it does without an engine. Each maneuver reduces the bullet's energy, unfortunately. Only the Tsirkon can keep its engine on for extended periods of flight

    The Iskander is almost 4 tons with a half ton payload with a flight range of 500km... how useless do you think the Russians are to need probably 3 tons of rocket fuel to get a 500kg payload 500km range?

    The Old Smerch rocket was 800kgs and it could carry a 100kg payload 70km... it was replaced by an 815kg rocket with a 90km flight range and the same payload. Not sure how heavy the new rockets are but they have a range of 150km and they wont be a lot heavier...

    Why do you think they need 3 tons of rocket fuel to accelerate the Iskander to a low altitude flight path that burns out well before the rocket gets to its target area and why would it need thrust vectoring rocket flight controls just to roll over in the direction of the target it is being fired at... could the fins, if they moved, do that?


    like the ROKS 3 Soviet Flame thrower

    Largely replaced in Russian service by rocket delivered thermobaric warheads via the RPO and RPG launchers. (RPO has thermobaric, incendiary, and smoke rockets, and there are MRO and LRO medium and small launchers respectively... and currently a multipurpose weapon called BUR which is a 62mm light weapon that can fire HE (thermobaric) and HE Frag rockets.)

    If you hit a bunker like that with TOS-1 at regular intervals, say 1 rocket every 2 min, wouldn't everyone suffocate from lack of oxygen pretty quickly?

    Most bunkers have ventilation systems but those systems can be closed during an attack and then reopened after the attack is over.

    The key is finding ventilation shafts and entrances and exits, but if you know roughly where they are then a very large weapon punching deep into the ground and then exploding with a big boom can collapse tunnels and break walls... wouldn't be a quick process but Russia is not in any hurry.

    Food and water stocks could last a long time but they are likely burning through ammo much faster than they expected so it is likely they will run out of that first.

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    Ispan
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    Post  Ispan Mon Oct 16, 2023 2:31 pm

    as today is a milestone, or rather a tombstone, another up to date summary of the war so far and the recent fighting

    https://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/2023/10/16/600-dias-de-guerra-300-000-muertos/

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    Airbornewolf
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    Post  Airbornewolf Mon Oct 16, 2023 3:29 pm

    RF VDV assault on Ukrainian positions near Verbov, Zaporyzhya



    RF armored vehicles pushing into the northern side of avdiivka as part of the RF offense

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    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Mon Oct 16, 2023 4:10 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They relied upon overwhelming infantry tactics to get close and where notoriously risky to use due to the gas.

    Oh sure they did, it is not like they used more fire support equipment than all other allied armies combined. This is just delusional projection on the part of the incompetent and poorly equipped US army that resorted to such primative tactics.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:04 pm

    It is more and more shocking how this thing goes ...

    https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/86581

    Belogorlovka. Ukrs dug caves, but it didn't help them much.
    Russian stoormers lost one guy WIA.


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    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:52 pm

    So buddy, what's happening in Poland?
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:57 pm

    Circus as usual.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Mon Oct 16, 2023 5:59 pm

    So clowns to the left and clowns to the right... thumbsup

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 16, 2023 6:04 pm

    It is just the same situation as with the Polish football.
    They should give a ball to every player. It wouldn't change much, but would be much more fun to watch.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:38 pm

    It looks confusing after the event. It must have bee chaos in Ukie AD at the time.


    Map of night strikes in Ukraine: air bases and other objects attacked

    ▪Were attacked, including the western and central regions - Khmelnitsky, Starokonstantinov, Berdichev, Kropyvnytskyi, Mirgorod, as well as Zaporozhye.
    ▪In Mirgorod and Starokonstantinov there are military airfields of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
    ▪The Ukrainian Air Force admitted that at night they managed to shoot down only 2 missiles out of 6.

    http://t.me/RVvoenkor

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 F8jUI0rWgAA9KBN?format=jpg&name=small

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    You are not getting it are you.

    Look at the image I posted... you can see tiny fixed fins and inside the engine exhaust you can see four thrust deflectors that are used to deflect the rocket thrust to manouver and steer the missile from launch to impact.

    Think about it for a minute... if the rocket burns for only seconds or a minute to climb and accelerate the missile then why bother with thrust deflecting control surfaces in the rocket motor exhaust... surely if the fins moved and could steer the missile they would make more sense to use at launch and in cruise than when falling on the target... why accept a 10-15% loss of thrust when redirecting the rocket exhaust plume in flight with TVC if you can just use an external flight control?

    It's obvious the OTRK is propelled during the entire flight

    9M723K1 is maneuvering the entire time, it's common knowledge even in western information resources that it flies in a NON BALLISTIC path, but a weaving flight pattern, which changes direction and altitude throughout the entire range of flight

    It would be physically impossible to change direction by such a margin without fully powered flight

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 Prelim10


    Last edited by Arkanghelsk on Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:03 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 16, 2023 8:59 pm

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:05 pm

    The Russian Army shot down 3 combat aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces

    2 Mig-29 fighters and 1 Su-25 attack aircraft of the Ukrainian air force were shot down by air defense forces in the Arkhangelsk region of the Kherson region, Dmitrovka and Zvonetsky of the Dnepropetrovsk region.

    http://t.me/RVvoenkor
    1:29 PM · Oct 16, 2023
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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:15 pm

    Does anyone have pictures of destroyed NASAMS missiles?

    Here is destroyed IRIS-T

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 Russia13


    I guess it's a redundant point, but interesting that Lancet is what killed those systems

    It almost makes VSHORADS a lose-lose proposition

    In the case of Russia, the quantity of VSHORADS is a quality of its own

    The only complaint would be to improve IFF

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:23 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 647d7510
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 16vid-10

    Destruction of the PATRIOT

    Do we know any official counts of what was used to exhaust the missiles on the system?

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:43 pm

    They should give a ball to every player.
    For politicians it should be baseball bats. lol1

    they managed to shoot down only 2 missiles out of 6.
    The remaining 4 missiles destroyed 20 targets. Rolling Eyes

    Do we know any official counts of what was used to exhaust the missiles on the system?
    Panic.

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:17 pm

    One sided attrition is obviously not fun to report, especially when the attrited are yours.

    Baron of the Taiga
    @baronitaigas
    🔫🇺🇦: 'Ukraine Weapons Tracker' quits. He is moving on to other things.

    Meanwhile

    Benjamin Pittet
    @COUPSURE
    .

    It's never too late for Ukraine to attack the Tikhoretsk ammunition depot, but Russia has recently significantly improved the area by installing dozens of protective berms. For more than a year, tonnes and tonnes of ammunition lay here before being shipped to Ukraine. Targeting skyscrapers in Moscow is one thing, but hitting Tikhoretsk would have a far more significant impact...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #49 - Page 35 F8kGxmoWgAALFR6?format=jpg&name=small

    Dara Massicot
    @MassDara
    Interesting they are using smaller berms typically associated with vehicles for this. I don’t see them modifying depots farther back in Russia ( less risk). Are they doing this at other depots near Ukraine?

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    Post  Lapain Mon Oct 16, 2023 10:33 pm

    DerWolf wrote:No news from Avdika direction at all

    Looks like yet another Ugledar style fiasco.

    This war will only end when Ukrying crumbles by its own. Not thanks to magical counteroffensives.

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