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    Wagner Chief Y.Prigozhin killed in plane crash

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    Post  sepheronx Thu Aug 24, 2023 8:58 pm

    par far wrote:
    Prigozhin played a big role in building up Wagner, did he run Wagner? From the information we have, he played a large role in running Wagner.

    No he didn't.  He was a face.  Utkin was the leader and head honcho of Wagner.  Prigozhin was a face of the company (The Duran guys did a long video on this when he did his little "coup" attempt).

    So you clearly don't know what he was in the company.

    Now, what is his history? Was he in the military? Did he have a criminal record? What was his business?

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    Post  Hole Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:56 pm

    Did he have a criminal record?
    He was convicted in the 80´s for robbing some old lady.

    Question remains: Did he end like Goldfinger or not.  dunno

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    Post  Backman Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:04 pm

    I bet Kadyrov did it. Prigonzin crossed him.
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    Post  Kiko Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:11 pm

    A lesson should be learned for Russia to develop its own sanctions-free, one hundred percent domestic version of a business jet for its executives. It should be prone to export as a sound quality (security and comfort)/price relationship.

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    Post  kvs Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:12 pm

    Mercouris is dead wrong on the "small benefit for Putin" analysis he is pushing. If Prigozhin was a problem of any sort for Putin and the Russian
    government he would have stayed in exile in Belorus with zero freedom of movement inside Russia. He would not have been allowed to participate
    in the Africa summit.

    The chorus of Putin did it from the NATzO MSM is solid evidence that this was a NATzO operation. NATzO is cui bono from this hit. It smears
    Russia and takes out a financial pillar for Wagner and its operations in Africa and elsewhere. It does not matter if Wagner has not pulled out of Africa,
    Wagner is still damaged by this terrorist attack.

    The idea that Putin would kill innocent Russian citizens to take out Prigozhin is retarded BS and people who think it is plausible are retards. Putin
    had numerous other levers to control Prigozhin, including arresting him. Prigozhin was not hiding in some African country where he was out of reach.

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    Post  Regular Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:34 pm

    I doubt Putin or Kadyrov would have done it. Putin would have arrested them all, Kadyrov wouldn’t dare to cause mass casualty event in case someone find outs, leaves rogue gooks or inner circle. Ukrainians are not omnipotent, Prigo wasn’t some public blogger. Hopefully this will be investigated thoroughly.

    It seems that there are quite a few people mourning the loss as well. 

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:46 pm

    Isos wrote:It's quite surprising that after one and half year they never tried to go after Zelensky and its top command staff but they kill Prigo.

    Some talk about the coup but there was neher a coup since he never planned to remove Putin, his problem was the MoD which frankly had so-so results so far, Wagner did the hardest part in Ukraine.

    Meanwhile there is a war with Ukraine and the most obvious move, killing enemy leaders, was never made.

    Its killing was just to show others how they will end if they try something. Prigo didn't deserve such end. Letting him run Wagner in Africa was OK.

    Zelensky feeds his troops into the woodchipper, he is useful



    What Prigozin planned, thought or wanted is irrelevant, he and his organization committed treason and attempted a coup

    They never should have been allowed to live past the day of the coup, Prigozin first and foremost



    Primary features of any mercenary outfit are discretion, deniability and disposability

    Prigozin and Wagner refused to perform according to requirements and have thus outlived their usefulness



    Prigozin should have stepped down the moment he was ousted by media as the owner of a mercenary company, instead he generated bigger social media footprint than Kim Kardashian at her heyday

    And that was long before he started disobeying orders and working for the enemy

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:48 pm

    Kiko wrote:A lesson should be learned for Russia to develop its own sanctions-free, one hundred percent domestic version of a business jet for its executives. It should be prone to export as a sound quality (security and comfort)/price relationship.

    Oh, this jet worked perfectly  thumbsup

    I just hope they were all fully conscious all the way down  Cool


    Regular wrote:...
    It seems that there are quite a few people mourning the loss as well... .

    There is always sufficient amount of retards to go around

    They will fade away once the media hype fizzles out as always

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    Post  ArgentinaGuard Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:It's quite surprising that after one and half year they never tried to go after Zelensky and its top command staff but they kill Prigo.

    Some talk about the coup but there was neher a coup since he never planned to remove Putin, his problem was the MoD which frankly had so-so results so far, Wagner did the hardest part in Ukraine.

    Meanwhile there is a war with Ukraine and the most obvious move, killing enemy leaders, was never made.

    Its killing was just to show others how they will end if they try something. Prigo didn't deserve such end. Letting him run Wagner in Africa was OK.

    Zelensky feeds his troops into the woodchipper, he is useful



    What Prigozin planned, thought or wanted is irrelevant, he and his organization committed treason and attempted a coup

    They never should have been allowed to live past the day of the coup, Prigozin first and foremost



    Primary features of any mercenary outfit are discretion, deniability and disposability

    Prigozin and Wagner refused to perform according to requirements and have thus outlived their usefulness



    Prigozin should have stepped down the moment he was ousted by media as the owner of a mercenary company, instead he generated bigger social media footprint than Kim Kardashian at her heyday

    And that was long before he started disobeying orders and working for the enemy


    This stupid Serb talks about others without knowing what a battlefront is. They have fought for their country, while others stay at home. They overthrew the government? They only called attention to the inoperation of the high command, which is true.
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:11 pm

    Begome wrote:
    Unlike Prigo, who is just another filthy oligarch of a certain tribe enriching himself at the expense of ordinary Russians, Elensky is helping to demilitarize Ukraine by obliging the RuAF and its meat grinders every day.

    Prigozhin didn't fall from the sky. He was Putin's confidante for more than a decade and Russian state was giving him all the lucrative catering and other contracts.
    So call him "filthy oligarch" or however you want, but he is a product of Russian state and security structures under Putin.

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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:13 pm

    Kiko wrote:A lesson should be learned for Russia to develop its own sanctions-free, one hundred percent domestic version of a business jet for its executives. It should be prone to export as a sound quality (security and comfort)/price relationship.

    Interesting fact is that this was first time this model of the plane crashed in little over 20 years of use. And there is about 300 of them in the existence. I don't believe plane was a problem.

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:24 pm

    ArgentinaGuard wrote:
    This stupid Serb talks about others without knowing what a battlefront is....

    Go suck a big fat Margaret Thatcher's cock again, you dollar store Mexican



    ArgentinaGuard wrote:...They have fought for their country, while others stay at home. They overthrew the government? They only called attention to the inoperation of the high command, which is true.

    They are mercenaries not soldiers and they don't have the right to call attention to anything

    Their one and only job is to follow orders without question, that is why they have extra digit on their paycheck compared to real soldiers

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    Post  Begome Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:29 pm

    People laying flowers for him means nothing in a country where mass murderers like Lenin, or rather his rotten corpse, as he and his ilk didn't believe in life after death, are still venerated in the capital. It was enough to see how many people were cheering on Prigos murderous escapade two months ago without any evidence whatsoever that "Shoigu is holding back ammo" or the other crap they were alleging to cover up their own incompetence. I can only attribute this to a mind virus implanted into people in Russia's school system that is still way too biased in favor of the Reds and Western liberal ideas. There's way too many people who seem to default to a position of unreasonable criticism, defeatism and cheering on murderous degenerates when under pressure to discard this likely possibility; the Church has also spoken of communist propaganda still being alive and well in the school system.

    There's also no need to build up a false dialectic a la "either NATO did it or Putin himself ordered it" as it's unlikely that either version is true anyhow...let's wait for the investigation to conclude and more evidence to surface. The death of the stewardess and the pilots is indeed a tragedy, but Russia will be better off with Wagner being run by someone who isn't going to turn on the country every time he feels upset. Sure this may have damaged Wagner's image, though then again, there may very well be plenty of people outside Russia who would prefer doing business with someone more stable and trustworthy when they deal with Wagner. Prigo made himself into a liability and reduced Wagner's worth as a result; with him gone this damage can be undone.

    caveat emptor wrote:Prigozhin didn't fall from the sky.
    Very curious choice of words there Laughing

    And no, he wasn't "Putin's confidante" lol...not any more than Chubais or other idiots who eventually were replaced. This is another result of Western propaganda making everyone think that all things of note in Russia happen at the direct personal behest of dictator-at-large Vladimir the Ruthless. He was a glorified caterer, who eventually outlived his usefulness.

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    Post  billybatts91 Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:40 pm

    Putin should’ve never gave these two nutjobs any power. Good riddance.

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    Post  Backman Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:42 pm

    Kiko wrote:A lesson should be learned for Russia to develop its own sanctions-free, one hundred percent domestic version of a business jet for its executives. It should be prone to export as a sound quality (security and comfort)/price relationship.
    This idea that sanctions caused the plane to crash is the exact kind of nonsense that western propagandists would use to angle this incident into their favour. 

    Muh sanctions caused the crash and it's just the beginning of the collapse of the Russian civil aviation sector -bruh.
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:48 pm

    Wasn't a Russian plane anyway.

    With that said, we don't have a clue what happened. So let's wait to see end results. Ffs.

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:08 am

    Begome wrote:

    And no, he wasn't "Putin's confidante" lol...not any more than Chubais or other idiots who eventually were replaced.
    You must live in parallel reality. Chubais, my friend, left the country, after the war started on his own accord. With all the money, i presume, he siphoned out from Inter RAO and Rosnano.
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    Post  Begome Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:24 am

    caveat emptor wrote:You must live in parallel reality. Chubais, my friend, left the country, after the war started on his own accord. With all the money, i presume, he siphoned out from Inter RAO and Rosnano.
    My point is that just because someone is in a position of influence in Russia doesn't mean that person is "Putin's confidante" or "a product of Russian state and security structures under Putin", as you allege. The way Chubais left is immaterial to this point.

    One of the reasons why Putin has been so effective is because he doesn't try to sanitize his environment to the point where only mindless yes-men and other zombies surround him. When someone is useful, or more useful than harmful, or more useful than removing him would be harmful etc. then they stay in their position. Prigo was useful for a while...until he wasn't. And there's plenty of people I'm sure Putin doesn't really approve of who have significant influence, but you can't fight constantly against everyone around you if you want to get things done.

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    Post  Backman Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:47 am

    It just isn't true that the death of a flight stewardess would make or break the idea to kill Prigozhin this way. These are deadly serious matters of state. Even for president Putin. But Putin wouldn't even have been in on the actual plan.  

    Arresting and putting him to death would have been a terrible idea. This way it is just a tragedy and nobody knows what happened

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:58 am

    Begome wrote:My point is that just because someone is in a position of influence in Russia doesn't mean that person is "Putin's confidante" or "a product of Russian state and security structures under Putin", as you allege. The way Chubais left is immaterial to this point.
    I agree with that notion, but you should get acquainted how Prigozhin got where he got during the years. 
     And you've brought up Chubais first and not me. Comparing him to Prigozhin was a bad analogy. 
    Chubais is a remnant of Yeltsin's liberal crowd that remained after the change of power, while Prigozhin, as an outsider, was directly brought in by someone from Putin's Peter crowd. These are the people that run Russian security apparatus and state crown jewels, atm. He wouldn't get control of Wagner if it were otherwise and hundreds of billions of rubles in state contracts.

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:11 am

    par far wrote:
    .

    Good vid

    Mercouris is quite right, there are almost too many suspects to consider

    But IMO we can dismiss most of them. Someone of Prigozhin's profile would be untouchable by anyone in Russia short of the state itself. So none of his oligarch enemies or prisoner's families or the VKS officers, Shoigu acting of their own accord or anything like that. None of them would have had the balls or the means to act against Prigozhin and his entire entourage. Russian intelligence wouldn't have done anything behind Putin's back either.

    The Ukrainians I don't think have the means to reach him all the way in Africa or Moscow either. It's not the same as blowing up Dugin's daughter's car. Nor do I think they necessarily had the motive either, they might have preferred to have him around creating more drama.

    Which leaves either the Russian state itself or the US/France. The Russian state taking him out in this way sounds weird as I earlier opined, but in it's favour is the fact of Surovikin being dismissed just a day or two prior. Sort of like Russia wanting to send a definite message. But that supposes that Prigozhin led a genuine mutiny back in June and the jury is still out for me on that.

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    Post  flamming_python Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:17 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    Begome wrote:
    Unlike Prigo, who is just another filthy oligarch of a certain tribe enriching himself at the expense of ordinary Russians, Elensky is helping to demilitarize Ukraine by obliging the RuAF and its meat grinders every day.

    Prigozhin didn't fall from the sky. He was Putin's confidante for more than a decade and Russian state was giving him all the lucrative catering and other contracts.
    So call him "filthy oligarch" or however you want, but he is a product of Russian state and security structures under Putin.

    Prigozhin was Putin's chef in his days working under Sobchak in St. Petersburg

    They go way back. Not that this dismisses the possibility of betrayal. But not over the matter of penal battalions taking high casualties because of lack of Russian artillery support. No. Never believed this cock & bull story and everything that followed it.

    Unfortunately in regards to the whole Prigozhin and Putin would-be betrayal, and redemption ark, and all the side stories of Shoigu's insulted offspring, Wagner power struggles or whatever - the amount we don't know greatly exceeds what we do know.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Aug 25, 2023 1:24 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    There is always sufficient amount of retards to go around

    They will fade away once the media hype fizzles out as always


    It's crazy how out of touch you and all the westerns are about Russia

    It's not a hype , people really consider him a hero

    So much that Putin himself had to acknowledge it today

    So what are you all on about dude? You guys sound as detached as westerns MSM

    It's crazy the shit you all say but have 0 clue

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Aug 25, 2023 2:46 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    The Ukrainians I don't think have the means to reach him all the way in Africa or Moscow either. It's not the same as blowing up Dugin's daughter's car. Nor do I think they necessarily had the motive either, they might have preferred to have him around creating more drama.

    Which leaves either the Russian state itself or the US/France. The Russian state taking him out in this way sounds weird as I earlier opined, but in it's favour is the fact of Surovikin being dismissed just a day or two prior. Sort of like Russia wanting to send a definite message. But that supposes that Prigozhin led a genuine mutiny back in June and the jury is still out for me on that.
    I don't think Ukrainians did it as well. This is way beyond their pay grade. 
    I don't believe it was French, since for them it would be much easier to do it in Africa where they still have sympathizers embedded in all state and security structures of those countries and I don't believe they have resources in Russia for something like that. 
    My money is on the state, for single reason that it would be really bad if Yankees could pull something like that off in Russia. Prigozhin was very particular about his security and even changed between planes without announcements. For US to be able to do it, it would entail that they have very sophisticated network in Russia itself.
    That would be very bad thing by itself.

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    Post  Backman Fri Aug 25, 2023 3:41 am

    Substack


    I don't know whether Gonzalo Lira or Yevgeny Prigozhin was dumber, in picking a political fight with a dangerously more powerful opponent. Lira should have shut up and got out when the getting was good, and Prigozhin should have at some point read a biography of George Patton, just to get an idea of what happens to military dissenters. when they get too uppity.


    Prigozhin set his own wheel of doom in motion with his loud criticism of the support from the MOD in Bakmut. Everything played out like clockwork after that.


    Whatever the motive, if you're gonna yell that loud, you should think about the next move. That was the MOD taking Wagner from Prigozhin. Regardless of what anyone might think of MOD policies, MOD couldn't just stand by while P's was undermining the MOD's strategy in Ukraine.


    MOD made the obvious move to consolidate Wagner. At that point, Progozhinwas lost politically, and his "rebellion" was at best a desparate cris-de-cour that whimpered out instead of flared up.


    But now P was getting more dangerous. On the one hand, MOD couldn't stand by until the next time that P felt inspired to march on Moscow, but he was too popular to eliminate summarily.


    So MOD first had to subvert P's support among patriots, by eliminating leadership, First, put P on ice by sending him to "exile" in Belorus and Africa where he stay active but where his official power was limited for the time being.


    Before P had time to rebuild his base, back in the RF, MOD was taking steps to undercut the opposition by going after its leadership, removing public intellectual Strelkov and high-level military sympathizers like Surovikin and Popov from positions of influence. (It would be unlikely that MOD did NOT have political informants in the ranks.)


    At this point, the MOD had set the stage for removal. Prigozhin wasn't becoming any more reticent, and more likely to regrow into an even larger thorn. Time to fix the problem. A nebulous military attack is just the ticket, to cast a fog over the assassination just thick enough to make assassination deniable, but suggestive enough to send a warning.


    Well-played, MOD.

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