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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:29 am

    To prevent their cruise missiles from being intercepted by Ukrainian SAMs what Russia can do is use cruise missiles in tandem with a reconnaissance drone flying at high altitude and detecting targets. Then the reconnaissance drone transmits coordinates to the cruise missiles allowing it to glide towards the target.

    I wouldn't bother to be honest... as long as the targets they wanted destroyed are getting hit if the Orc SAMS bring down any missiles, just fire a few more missiles to get that target.

    Orcs using up SAMs on missiles and drones is a good thing because those SAMs can't be used against manned Russian aircraft and high flying drones might see the intercept and allow the SAM site to be attacked too.

    Isos, do you have any other nonsense from your arsenal of nonsense to share with us

    No need to be rude Pod... the videos are interesting.

    It was an invisible&invincible Rafael intercepting those missiles, you silly!

    If he responds by putting words in your mouth do not complain to me please.... Neutral

    The little comedian on the propaganda piano in Kiev is no Erich von Manstein. More Eric Morecombe (late English comedian).

    I object to that comparison... Morecombe and Wise were hilarious... and never pandered to nazis.

    The US always betrays and abandons its proxies. Zelensky and Ukraine are no different. The backing off has been going on subtly for weeks, but the Polish missile crisis does seem a turning point.

    Whether that missile was an accident or on purpose, Zelensky used it to whore more money and weapons and actual action from HATO... are the Polish ready to realise that Kiev will be happy for Polish people to die for Kievs cause?

    However those kalibr still fly to high. They should be flying 50-100m not above.

    If they fly too low cables can be strung up between buildings to stop them... and it makes shooting them with small arms much easier too.

    The question is why is Russia building defenses in Crimea? Are they planning to withdraw completely from the south of Ukraine?

    They were not building defences, they were fixing them and improving them... ie not construction... maintenance.

    Those russian(not LNR, lugansk is an integral part of Russia) troops disrespected themselves by being captured by those poorly equipped monkeys

    A lesson for the rest... no point in surrender... fight to the death because they will kill you anyway.

    Polish President Andrzej Duda also stated that the country's air defense system was unable to shoot down a fallen Ukrainian missile.

    Yeah, why didn't super HATO air defences detect the incoming ancient Russia SAM and shoot it down?

    When war started, they were using these red colored , winged decoys that look like small cruise missiles, I recall pictures of them back in February but have not seen them since

    And I am not talking about those dart shaped decoys from Iskander

    These were red winged decoys

    They have a range of target drones they use to test air defence units, the drones are cheap and are intended to be destroyed with each use and can be fitted with radar and IR equipment to allow them to replicate the radar and IR signature of different target types... (ie corner reflectors to appear to be big aircraft and IR emitters to look like they have much bigger and more powerful engines than a tiny drone with a cheap tiny engine.

    Chernishiv had an arrival half an hour ago.

    The same cheap simple jet engine that the V1 buzz bomb used...


    Ukraine will cease to exist before it becomes a full member of NATO, that is for certain.
    You can't join NATO with a border dispute in progress, it's against the membership rules.

    Therefore Ukraine can't join NATO until it's military is defeated by Russia, and the government surrenders.

    The US is bending over backwards not to send troops to fight Russian troops officially because they say they don't want to start WWIII... and letting Kiev join HATO or the EU would start WWIII so it wont happen.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:30 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Photo_78

    One of 4 possible scenarios suggested in that article is:

    Russia may be building more missiles

    I should have been a journalist, much easier job...  No




    You're telling me. I knew something was wrong with journalism here when I was in high school (IIRC its gymnasium for most of you in Europe) and learned that the Pulitzer is named for the guy whose newspapers lied us into the Spanish War in 1896. Yeah, to be an effective journalist in America in regards to Russia you must have a dark imagination (sado-masochism and perverted fantasies prefered), an irrational hatred and simultaneous arrogant and self-righteous contemptous pity for the inferiority of all things Russian, and a mind that is lined with concrete and closed to any understanding whatsoever of Russian history or view of the world. I mean, I could tap into the dark imagination fairly easily (after all I love comic books), but its the other stuff that would make it a very difficult occupation for me.

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    Erk
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    Post  Erk Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:32 am

    ucmvulcan wrote:

    Not destroy, but they should occupy a few more of them, and disconnect their power to the rest of the country.  Elensky was working with cookie monster Nuland to build up a bio weapons program, and Noodles even admitted it.  With all the nuclear waste lying around those plants, and given Elensky's complete disregard for human life I would not put beyond them making a dirty bomb with some of that.  Remember, a nuke requires specially processed stuff, dirty bombs just need radioactive materials tied to a conventional explosive.  They aren't military weapons, they are terrorist weapons and so yeah I could see the Ukes, with US assistance, putting some together.  So no, while Russia should not bomb them, they should seize most of them as is practicable for them.

    Ukraine have already made a dirty bomb, it's called Chernobyl.


    Last edited by Erk on Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:51 am; edited 5 times in total

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat Nov 19, 2022 3:41 am

    Erk wrote:[quote="ucmvulcan"

    Not destroy, but they should occupy a few more of them, and disconnect their power to the rest of the country.  Elensky was working with cookie monster Nuland to build up a bio weapons program, and Noodles even admitted it.  With all the nuclear waste lying around those plants, and given Elensky's complete disregard for human life I would not put beyond them making a dirty bomb with some of that.  Remember, a nuke requires specially processed stuff, dirty bombs just need radioactive materials tied to a conventional explosive.  They aren't military weapons, they are terrorist weapons and so yeah I could see the Ukes, with US assistance, putting some together.  So no, while Russia should not bomb them, they should seize most of them as is practicable for them.

    Ukraine have already made a dirty bomb, it's called Chernobyl.


    [/quote]

    Well yes and no. That whole thing, much like Zaprozhiye, was more of a propaganda thing. They did have hopes of something exploding to try to get NATO in, but I am referring to an actual dirty bomb
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    Post  crod Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:29 am

    ucmvulcan wrote:
    You're telling me.  I knew something was wrong with journalism here when I was in high school (IIRC its gymnasium for most of you in Europe) and learned that the Pulitzer is named for the guy whose newspapers lied us into the Spanish War in 1896.  Yeah, to be an effective journalist in America in regards to Russia you must have a dark imagination (sado-masochism and perverted fantasies prefered), an irrational hatred and simultaneous arrogant and self-righteous contemptous pity for the inferiority of all things Russian, and a mind that is lined with concrete and closed to any understanding whatsoever of Russian history or view of the world.  I mean, I could tap into the dark imagination fairly easily (after all I love comic books), but its the other stuff that would make it a very difficult occupation for me.


    Oh come now, it was all rather reasonably explained by the journalists. ‘Twas Iranian armaments then the North Koreans’ stepped in and helped out so all they have to do is ration them and wait until Santa steps in next month. Simple….

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Sat Nov 19, 2022 5:59 am

    Imagine dying so that:
    >your country can enter the EU and become 10% white by 2100
    >fags can parade in your streets
    >your kids are turned into trannies
    The absolute state

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:03 am

    There were widespread protests against the Kiev regime in Odessa last night.

    As they get detained and tortured, probably even killed by the SBU, will we see the same amount of concern raised in western countries as we saw re Iran recently?

    Rhetorical question, of course. Yesterday the umpteenth Ukrainian war crime video made the rounds, no media has yet to give a damn. But a small-time criminal from the Moscow suburbs who *volunteered* (ie wasn't mobilized) and started badmouthing his drill sergeant, THAT is newsworthy.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:15 am



    Oh come now, it was all rather reasonably explained by the journalists. ‘Twas Iranian armaments then the North Koreans’ stepped in and helped out so all they have to do is ration them and wait until Santa steps in next month. Simple….

    To be sure, if I was in the Russian government, I would leak all sorts of misinformation to the western press, especially if I knew of the arrogant gullibility and failure to do due dilligence and research that is so much part of the Anglo-American press corps. Oh, I would sell shortages. Russian soldiers wrapping themselves in shrink wrap to keep warm. I'd plant that on Reddit and tell reporters that. I'd play up the shortages of tanks, planes, drones, missiles, and anything else because I know that it would possibly cause generals and planners to see a very distorted picture of reality.

    As David Glantz and Jonathan House both said, part of Maskirovka is to get your foe to see what he wants. Sure, you buy body armor and drones from Iran. Why not? You gain a useful partner in Southwest Asia and of you can fill the skies with 50,000 dollar drones that can destroy multimillion dollar state of the art air defense systems that you build under license then you do it. Your foe thinks your generals hate each other more than Samsanov and Rennenkampf? Have some fun on twitter and telegram. He thinks you're out of tanks? Why send late model T-72s, T-90s, and T-14s when T-62s do fine? He thinks your aim is to attack? Retreat and dig in and wipe him out.

    While I do think most of what I see in the US press about this war is creative bulls***, I cannot fully rule out that Russia may well be toying with their minds.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:55 am

    Garry, I didn't insult Isos, I just wrote him that it was another of his nonsense.
    I'm not going to be rude to anyone except MR HD - that stinker openly wrote that he supports Ukroshitstan. If there is another bastard who, like MR HD, will openly write that he is for Ukroshitstan - let him declare himself so that we know how to address him. How stupid, naive or malicious does one have to be not to see what Ukroshitstan is all about.


    Isos is a man who also has good messages, rarely lately, but it is obvious that Western propaganda has influenced him as well, so he believes in some fairy tales.
    I'm sorry, but I can't forget story of Isos about the Rafale plane because he writes about it as if it were a technological marvel of the 22nd century.
    And it's not, it's not at all.
    The Rafale is an old aircraft project and I sincerely believe that our retards in Serbia will give up on that aircraft.
    At the time when the Rafale first flew in 1986, the city of Shenzhen had 50,000 inhabitants, and China had neither highways nor high-speed railways.
    We in Serbia have a nice saying for something that has caught the ravages of time "It's hard to make a girl out of a grandmother"... Suspect

    I already wrote earlier that the future is not European, American or Russian - the future belongs to Asia and China at its head. Christianity is screwed up, dilapidated and decadent - there is no perspective. I think the same about those who glorify Western or Russian military equipment while disparaging both Chinese - that's not good either.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:59 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    Isos wrote:


    KH-55 may be old, but its still a formidable missile. Probably makes a good decoy because if its good endurance. It can probably keep making passes for 2-3 hours if they don't hit it.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:06 am



    KH-55 may be old, but its still a formidable missile. Probably makes a good decoy because if its good endurance. It can probably keep making passes for 2-3 hours if they don't hit it.

    Exactly...
    The year 1983 was also the year when both cruise missiles became operational, that is, the American BGM-109 "Tomahawk" (March 1983) and the Soviet (read Russian) H-55 "izdeliye-120".
    On December 31, 1983, the missile officially became operational.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:20 am

    Considering the price tag, stocks and replacement possibilities, I find this discussion about "intercepting" Russkie missiles actually funny 😈 Those are Gerans intercepting IRIS/NASAM, not the opposite 🤣

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    ahmedfire
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    Post  ahmedfire Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:23 am

    Ukies and west are thinking each interception is for an active Russian cruise missile which is totally nonsense .

    Russians are using waves of decoys missiles and between that they are targeting specific targets with real missiles .

    Second thing Russia is making false alarms in Ukraine by the take off Mig-31 and other platforms which trigger the alarm in Ukraine and activate their AD systems each time and this put more operational issues for their systems which needs more time for maintainance.

    Russia can send hundreds of decoys each week to empty the AD missiles in Ukraine ,that's why the west can never win in the AD game because it's a Russian made game ,they know it better than anyone .

    The west is just destroying more Ukraine's assets using a nazi persons who have no idea what they did to their country , Ukraine total loss now is near to 2.5 trillion dollars ,they gonna be under loans for a long time ,they gonna import food ,electricity ,arms and everything from abroad ,they already lost 8 millions people to abroad ,their civil and military industry are gone .

    contrary to some people here ,i see this as the real loss , i don't see the last Russian retreat from Kherson city is a big thing ,it's just the right thing ,the bigger idea is that Ukraine future is fukn dark ,they lost their advantags on the eyes of EU .

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:37 am

    Multiple incomings all night long.
    Motor Sich plant was turned into rubbles, at least 3 missiles were received.
    As that is not the first time they get a dose, it seems to be a long lasting and complex curation ...

    ahmedfire wrote:
    contrary to some people here ,i see this as the real loss , i don't see the last Russian retreat from Kherson city is a big thing ,it's just the right thing ,the bigger idea is that Ukraine future is fukn dark ,they lost their advantags on the eyes of EU .

    They have lost this advantage long time ago bro.
    Ukraine presented only one value for the EU. It was the size of the consumer market.
    On the other side, the rule in the EU is based on parity. Ukraine while being quite a big country, with 42+ mln people, would get the same size of power as Spain. Nobody in the EU was interested in that for real, including Poland in the first place. Ukraine would have gotten a bigger size of the EU cake.
    The sizes of export quotas EU offered them would be enough to carry the trade for a few weeks at most. EU is not a charity organization, it is a trade treaty first of all. People do like to miss that part of the story.
    Ukraine in the conditions they represented back there would never have been fully membered with the EU, rather stay in a frozen candidate condition. And forced to open its market for that, while closing the access to the SNG. That is why Yanuk made a turn back in 2013.


    Last edited by ALAMO on Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:45 am

    Although you all write about aviation and ground forces, the fact is that the Caspian Flotilla and the Black Sea Fleet did a lot of work in returning Ukroshitstan to the pre-Tesla period.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Russia21
    Project 21631 Buyan-M

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Fg_24210
    Project 636.6

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Articl25
    Project 22800 "Karakurt" (black widow spider). The small missile ship "Тsyklon" is undergoing sea trials in Black sea and Karakurt class could also be involved in strikes on Ukroshitstan.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Mtg4nz10
    Project 11356R

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    Post  Erk Sat Nov 19, 2022 9:48 am

    ucmvulcan wrote:

    To be sure, if I was in the Russian government, I would leak all sorts of misinformation to the western press, especially if I knew of the arrogant gullibility and failure to do due dilligence and research that is so much part of the Anglo-American press corps. ...

    I wouldn't, the truth is always a priority if you want people to trust you.

    If the truth is too sensitive, because it might put lives at risk, then say nothing.
    That is much better than misinformation, lies, and propaganda, so many of us have grown up to think is acceptable government behavior.

    Be a role model, not an also-ran.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:07 am

    ALAMO is right, the Ukroshitstans drank a lot of cruise missiles last night.

    * 23:10 🇷🇺🇺🇦 A large destroyed column of armored vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Kherson direction. A lot of burnt armored vehicles of the Ukrainian army, including T-72M1 tanks transferred by Poland.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41341

    This morning..

    * 06:09 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Footage of attacks on the Zaporozhye plant "Motor Sich", which specializes in the repair of aircraft engines.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41342

    * 06:11 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Destroyed Mi-24 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the SMO zone
    https://t.me/intelslava/41343

    * 06:17 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Ukrops report that such discos are already the norm in Ugledar.
    After the capture of the village of Pavlovka in this direction, work continues on the capture of Ugledar.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41344

    * 06:54 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Combat work of self-propelled guns "Akatsiya" in the area of   the SMO
    https://t.me/intelslava/41345

    * 07:58 🇷🇺🇺🇦 The work of artillery on armored vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the area of   Kuzemovka, Svatovsky district.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41346

    * 08:01 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Combat work of the TOS "Solntsepyok" of the "O" group in the Liman direction
    https://t.me/intelslava/41347

    * 08:43 🇷🇺🇺🇦 Soldiers of the 3rd motorized rifle brigade of the DPR conduct accurate shelling of the positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Gorlovka region.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41348

    * 09:06 🇧🇾⚡The head of the Ministry of Defense of Belarus said that the army has the necessary equipment and weapons to defend the country
    https://t.me/intelslava/41349

    * 09:35 🇺🇦⚡Tension is rising, rallies in Odessa continue: people protest against power outages
    The protesters have already blocked the road at the Korolev-Glushko intersection.
    https://t.me/intelslava/41350

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    Post  ahmedfire Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:10 am

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    Post  AMCXXL Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:47 am

    The Poles meet their mercenaries with full military honors. Or maybe Poland is quietly sending its regular troops?
    Who will meet mercenaries with state honors like that?

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:50 am

    Chronicle of the Special Military Operation for 18 Nov 2022⚡

    #Belgorod Region:

    ▪ Ukrainian militants shelled border settlements. Residential buildings and power lines in the villages of #Murom and #Ustinka were hit, an elderly man was killed.

    #Bryansk Region:

    ▪ Enemy militants struck the civilian infrastructure of Belaya Berozka, causing temporary problems with electricity supply in the settlement. There were no casualties.

    #Krasnodar Region:

    ▪ On the night of 16-17 November, an AFU naval drone attacked the Sheskharis oil harbour in the port of #Novorossiysk. The damage sustained was minor and did not affect the operational capability of the facility.

    #Starobelsk Direction:

    ▪ In the #Svatovo sector, assault forces of the AFU's 92nd Mechanized Brigade launched another attack on Russian positions near #Kuzemovka, but failed and withdrew to their initial positions with losses.

    ▪ In the #Lyman sector, Ukrainian units of the 66th Mechanized Brigade and 25th Airmobile Brigade tried to break through towards #Chervonopopovka. The Russian Armed Forces repulsed all enemy attacks.

    ▪ In the #Lysychansk sector, positional fighting continues near #Belogorovka.

    #Soledar Direction:

    ▪ There are no significant changes in the situation on the front, clashes near #Bakhmut.

    #Lugansk People's Republic:

    ▪ Ukrainian militants shelled the town of #Bryanka with HIMARS, destroying and damaging several residential and farm buildings. One elderly woman was wounded.

    ▪ Russian air defence intercepted enemy shells near #Goncharovka.

    #Donetsk Direction:

    ▪ Fighters of the Separate Reconnaissance Battalion Sparta and the 1st Slavyansk Brigade, supported by the 238th Artillery Brigade, have completed a clean-up of the northern outskirts of #Opytnoye. The liberation of the settlement allows the offensive against #Avdeevka to continue from the southwest.

    ▪ The Ukrainian command is moving reinforcements and strengthening its defences to prevent the encirclement of the #Avdeevka stronghold.

    ▪ Enemy militants have again shelled populated areas of the #Donetsk agglomeration. Residential areas and civilian infrastructure, including the Donbass Arena building, were damaged in #Donetsk. At least six people were injured.

    #Zaporozhye Direction:

    ▪ The AFU command continues to move additional forces to the #Orekhov and #Gulyaypole areas in preparation for an offensive.

    ▪ Artillery duels continue along the line of contact. Russian forces hit Ukrainian formations in #Zaliznychnoye, #Zarechnoye and #Gulyaypolskoye. During the night, Russian troops struck the 53rd workshop of the Motor-Sich plant in #Zaporozhye, causing a major fire at the facility.

    ▪ In #Melitopol, according to local sources, an enemy SRG, which had earlier carried out a terrorist attack in the Lower Town, has been detained.

    #Kherson Direction on Southern Front:

    ▪ Russian missile forces and artillery have worked on accumulations of enemy personnel and armoured vehicles in #Antonovka, #Otradokamenka and #Chernobaevka.

    ▪ Ukrainian militants have been attacking residential buildings in #Novaya Kakhovka, #Aleshki and #Tavrichanka throughout the day.


    https://t.me/sitreports/975

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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

    Post  JohninMK Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:55 am

    Clearly the ability to operate in a real war was not one of the mandatory requirements in the Specification.

    Interesting information appeared in the German press today that the AFU has big problems with German self-propelled howitzers. Fourteen of them have been delivered and now most of them are out of service. But the funny thing is that it is problematic to repair them because of the lack of spare parts.

    Just to remind you, these Panzerhaubitze 2000 were positioned by Ukrainians as "absolute weapons". Just as a little earlier the notorious "Javelins" and "Byraktars" and then American M777 guns.

    Nobody remembers "Javelins" nowadays, though just recently they were drawing icons, "Byraktars" have been destroyed so much that probably they have stopped counting, and American miracle guns were also successfully destroyed. By the way, they are quite vulnerable and precisely because of their technological guidance system, which breaks down not even from firing, but from dirt and difficult operating conditions.

    Now the same fate has befallen the German "wunderwaffe". German howitzers also do not withstand the operating conditions and intensity of firing, it is impossible to repair them in the field, and stationary repair proved to be a problem, as German engineers did not consider the stresses to which the product of their thought would be subjected. Spare parts were in short supply for this very reason - no one anticipated that the weapon would end up in a real war, rather than shooting some Afghan insurgents. It was very smooth on paper, but it's the collision with reality that the miracle of German engineering doesn't stand up to.

    In other words, they work on a firing range and parades. It's good to know .


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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

    Post  Big_Gazza Sat Nov 19, 2022 12:35 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 39 Russia21
    Project 21631 Buyan-M

    This is the supersonic AShM variant if I'm not mistaken, 3M54T?. I haven't before seen a pic of one of these launchs thumbsup

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    Post  Hole Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:13 pm

    JohninMK wrote: It was very smooth on paper, but it's the collision with reality that the miracle of German engineering doesn't stand up to.
    The excuse was that there was very intense shooting with 300 shells a day!  Laughing

    300 shells a day is not intense. Some russian 2S19 are using 300 shells in 2 or 3 hours.

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    Post  Isos Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:20 pm

    Hole wrote:
    JohninMK wrote: It was very smooth on paper, but it's the collision with reality that the miracle of German engineering doesn't stand up to.
    The excuse was that there was very intense shooting with 300 shells a day!  Laughing

    300 shells a day is not intense. Some russian 2S19 are using 300 shells in 2 or 3 hours.

    Per hour ? Hard to believe. The barrel would double in diameter at this rate with the heat.

    Russians have better logistic for their artillery, they can quickly change the barrel once used. Ukrainians with their western system and spare parts have to use them sporadically. With US intel they can be used effectively by strike with guided shells targets found by satellites.

    But now with the increase use of Lancet they can't do much with their artillery. They get destroyed quickly.

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    Post  limb Sat Nov 19, 2022 1:29 pm

    Hole wrote:
    JohninMK wrote: It was very smooth on paper, but it's the collision with reality that the miracle of German engineering doesn't stand up to.
    The excuse was that there was very intense shooting with 300 shells a day!  Laughing

    300 shells a day is not intense. Some russian 2S19 are using 300 shells in 2 or 3 hours.

    Because they need to. After the 2nd or 3rd shot, the pzh2000 and krab are extremely accurate, due to a digital FCS and much longer range(30km regular round, 40km RAP, 60km Smart or excalibur, while 24.7km, regular, 30km RAP, 27km krasnopol for msta) . The msta and giatsint arent and without krasnopol, need to fire 10-50 rounds at a target to disable it..  The koalitsiya is superior toNATO systems but its still being "ironed out"(translation: potbelly dinosaur pennypinchers don't want to throw a penny to mass produce them). Russian ammo expenditure is a sign of obsolete tech, not superiority. That being said, NATO artillery really doesn't cope withe xtended fire, but it doesn't need to. actual NATO coalition armies, with about 700-900 pzh2000, archer, krab, AS-90, paladin, M198 would the wipe the floor against 2000-3000 D-20s, 2S19M2, D-30s, msta-B, giatsint B, pion

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