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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

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    pavi


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    Post  pavi Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:38 pm

    PhSt wrote:I have already determined the modus operandi of NATzO Trolls in this forum (and others)

    These NATzO Trolls will say a thing or two about how they support Russia and then mention a couple of slurs towards the West and Pukraine, this is to give other people an impression that they support Russia's cause, but this is just a ruse, when the opportune moment comes, they will not hesitate to regurgitate NATzO Propaganda and make small and irrelevant incidents look Big and Blow them out of proportion.  A thread should be started where a list of these NATzO Dogs is shown to expose them and serve as a warning to other users.

    You should understand, that well argumented opposing opinion is very fruitfull and help understanding and even resolving problems. I do not agree always. I usually disagree, but I still respect well argumented opposing argument. Well, I have 45 years experience of being "känkkäränkkä",and if I would taken as insault everything when I dont agree I would be quite a bitter man:) This is discussion forum and differentiated opinions are richness and salt of it. Lets go back to the topic!

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    Post  caveat emptor Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:38 pm

    calripson wrote:Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.
    Modern Russia is  state of oligarchs, run by oligarchs, and it doesn't  share anything with Soviet Union. And I'm not talking only about oligarchs that control private industries, but also huge state owned conglomerates, such as Gref, Sechin, Miller or Chemezov. 
    As such, it doesn't have prevalent ideology, but a hodge-podge of beliefs that can be conveniently altered by people in power, as they see fit. Material wealth and keeping power are prime driver for all decisions.
    Considering what the country has been through last 30+ years, it was inconceivable to think that this scourge didn't take toll on the people at the top of the military, as well.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:39 pm

    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

    Again this sausage lover .
    They don't want to "humiliate" Russia with long-range systems, or they don't want to get hit on the nose themselves?  Very Happy
    Which western plane, western anti-aircraft system or tank proved the technological advantage of the West over Russia, because I have not seen any of those systems in Ukroshitstan?
    I don't see any rush in Russia at all, and I especially don't see panic, because there is no rush about mobiliziation either.  
    You write as if everything is over. Hey anvil, the game is played until the referee blows the whistle - remember that. That's what West doesn't understand and never will.

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    Post  sundoesntrise Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:49 pm

    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

    You cannot fully explain the Russian mess up in Ukraine without mentioning the political layer of it.

    Two serious questions.

    1. Why hasn't Russia at any point targeted the Ukrainian political+military leadership?

    2. Why hasn't Russia targeted the Ukrainian infrastructure in an effort to hamper the endless resupplying of UAF?

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    Post  Erk Fri Nov 11, 2022 11:51 pm

    franco wrote:

    I had a read somewhere after the Kharkov debacle and at the start of mobilization that a major problem had developed in the SMO zone. Apparently over 30,000 of the short term volunteers (3 or 6 months) had finished their contracts and had not resigned up. This along with casualties taken by the LDPR's forces and Russian forces over the first 6 months had left the Allied forces seriously under-strength.

    Also:

    More than 30,000 Russian soldiers were withdrawn to the left bank of the Dnieper. This was reported by the Ministry of Defense of Russia. It is specified that about five thousand units of weapons and equipment were also redeployed.

    https://www-gazeta-ru.translate.goog/army/news/2022/11/11/19013407.shtml?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

    NOTE: so 20-25% of total Russian forces were on the West bank... this coupled with another 300,000 troops coming in should make things happen on the East bank.

    Whilst Ukraine has moved it's forced to west Kherson, Russian forces have been having an easy time reclaiming towns in Donbas.
    Seems Kiev has gone for an "all or nothing" concentration of forces in the Kherson oblast.
    That suggests to me that they are having trouble replacing lost troops, or their strategy is to not really win the war, but create small propaganda victories.
    eg. the fixation on terrorist acts like shelling civilians in Donetsk, shelling NPP, blowing up civilian infrastructure, like the bridge in Crimea which they would have gone for the railway bridge if they wanted to stop Russian military movement, not the civilian vehicle transport bridge.

    These acts don't seem like the work of a real military commander, they seem more like something Al Qaeda would do under US instruction.

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    Post  Airbornewolf Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:01 am

    Because it is nearly the end of the year.
    Here are the compilations of events during this war so far.

    Grab a beer or vodka, slap on that Black and Orange victory ribbon patch and allow yourself to be absorbed by the heroism these brave troops show.
    If you want to share, please share.
    Their stories of their war on Fascism need to be told  russia









    |

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:03 am

    Hole wrote:
    Godric wrote:i seriously don't understand why Russia pulled out of Kherson when they had it under there control, to me it feels like a own goal that gave Ukraine a propaganda victory.

    something else might be going on that they needed those troops but to me it feels as if Russia abandoned the people of Kherson to the naz.is
    Take a look at some of the videos of Ukro Nazi fighters entering the city. The people that staid in Kherson salute them with their right arms. You know, the old "Olympic salute".
    This shows the main problem of those that declare themselfs to be "Ukrainians". Two days ago they took money, food, free healthcare and much lower utility prices from Russia and today they raise blue and yellow flags and shout "Heil Bandera". I hope someone in the FSB takes a look at that and writes down the names of this individuals.

    I think that's part of the point

    The Russians had a problem in the region of Ukr informants. Now they know who the bad apples are so to speak

    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

    Settle down sunshine

    The Russians didn't take the step of initiating mobilization and very publicly putting Surovikin in charge just to drably cut a backroom deal less than 2 months later, and putting themselves back in the same situation as they started in or worse of unofficial NATO build-up in the Ukraine and possible basing of nuclear weapons there.

    Once again, if there was some sort of deal - it would be out in the open. A public deal with its terms broadcast to the whole world and binding all parties to it by virtue of international opinion aside other things is the only one the Russians would even consider accepting.
    Even Minsk-2 was very much public, and legally binding, with specific mechanisms defined. And it didn't work. But we're to believe that Russia will work out some secret agreement with Jake Sullivan under Saudi mediation as a basis for something or other.

    mnztr wrote:So military summary channel says Ukraine already has Kherson city. The lack of carnage inflicted on AUF indicates Russia has worked out some deal with the US and has decided to take up the the ass. The only reasons the AUF can cross that territory without massive attrition is a deal or massive incompetence. Take your pick.

    The first units to arrive into Kherson city will be some recon ones, not any sort of significant force. So too early to tell in any case.

    But if nothing happens and the Ukraine is allowed to take control of everything without contest, then I can hazard a guess that they would only do so with limited forces too, and not turn the region into a front against Russia in the rest of Kherson or the Crimea. Essentially freezing the conflict on this front.
    In which case this whole episode will be a sort of trust-building gesture on both sides, as a preliminary to negotiations - but not a deal in of itself.

    But there must be some other rationale for abandoning Kherson other than for the hope of some phantom negotiations, the even more fleeting hope that the Ukraine will indeed avoid reneging back on any local ceasefire, and of course not the unconvincing logistical problems cited either.

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    Post  calripson Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:11 am

    PhSt wrote:
    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.


    Did you grab this script from your NATzO Tabloid propagandists? Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Any sign of defeat should automatically trigger Russia to fire a couple of nuke salvos. This will remind the West that Russia will not stand idle and allow itself to be humiliated. Russia will have to resort to nuclear war to humiliate the West by annihilating them. Russia will get destroyed in the process but at least a nuclear war will result in a draw. Whats most important is that the entire Western civilization is exterminated forever russia

    Putin didn't even use the threat of nuclear war to influence Western public opinion. The Russians went out of their way to avoid it thus negating important leverage. It is not just Putin that deals are currently being cut with; there are plenty of actors behind the scenes positioning for the post-Putin era.
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    Post  calripson Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:15 am

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

    You cannot fully explain the Russian mess up in Ukraine without mentioning the political layer of it.



    Two serious questions.

    1. Why hasn't Russia at any point targeted the Ukrainian political+military leadership?

    2. Why hasn't Russia targeted the Ukrainian infrastructure in an effort to hamper the endless resupplying of UAF?

    There seems to have been some quid pro quo regarding targeting the political leadership - another mistake on Putin's part. Infrastructure was targeted at some points and in varying degrees, but not early enough, nor sufficiently enough.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:27 am

    From Mercouris
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    Post  Manov Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:27 am

    This is for all the defeatist:

    Grow a PAIR!

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    Post  billybatts91 Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:28 am

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    calripson wrote:Comments leaked by various Western military and political officials and the refusal to supply certain arms indicated that deals are being cut and the retreat from Kherson is part of the package. As Macron stated , they don't want to overtly humiliate Russia, but de facto the war has already been lost for Putin and the question of what conditions they impose and the timeline for implementing those conditions are up in the air. There will be some face saving gestures, but the ultimate reality for all but the most cognitively impaired is apparent. It is a shocking geopolitical defeat - shocking except to UK and US military and intelligence strategists who game planned it perfectly. It highlights the huge inadequacies in Russian intelligence first and foremost (you have to wonder how widely penetrated and compromised those agencies are) as well as Russian military leadership. The relative disparity in technology (outside of some key areas like strategic and hypersonic weapons) is apparent to all. Also, the total uselessness of the most advanced strategic weapons in the knowledge that you will never use them even as a tool of mass psychological terror. Some general lessons to be learned from the conflict: naval capital ships are a worthless waste of money in modern warfare, no armored vehicle should be produced without an effective APS system, cost effective drone swarms and anti-drone non-kinetic weapons are the waves of the future. Demographics and ideology matter as much in 2022 as ever. The Taliban outlasted the Americans (as did the North Vietnamese) because their women pumped out 3 kids for every adult killed by the Americans and they were more than willing to fight and die for an idea. Too many people in this forum look at Russian history circa 1945 and conflate that with modern Russia.

    You cannot fully explain the Russian mess up in Ukraine without mentioning the political layer of it.

    Two serious questions.

    1. Why hasn't Russia at any point targeted the Ukrainian political+military leadership?

    2. Why hasn't Russia targeted the Ukrainian infrastructure in an effort to hamper the endless resupplying of UAF?

    I think it's partly because much of the Russian leadership was too tied to the West for years and a lot of that residue is hampering their decision making/judgement right now. It's preventing them from going all out to truly win this war and not pussyfoot around. Western capitalism has been very good to the entire leadership in Russia. Just look at all the mansions, villas, yachts, net worth of all of them. And the years of ties they had to the West and personal relationships etc., especially in Western Europe. Hard for the leadership to wage the right kind of war needed with that background for many of them imo.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:35 am

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    Post  Erk Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:43 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:From Mercouris


    He has posted an update already.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzcv1wzsvAY

    He makes comment that Russia has actually jammed missiles from HIMARS launchers.

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    Post  Azi Sat Nov 12, 2022 12:58 am

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    You cannot fully explain the Russian mess up in Ukraine without mentioning the political layer of it.

    Two serious questions.

    1. Why hasn't Russia at any point targeted the Ukrainian political+military leadership?

    2. Why hasn't Russia targeted the Ukrainian infrastructure in an effort to hamper the endless resupplying of UAF?
    Answer for first point...

    The reason are spies at the highest Ukrainian level. Also, if you take out the lead too quickly, Zelensky would become a martyr like his predecessor Bandera, and the war would still not be over.

    Second point...

    Russia has stopped flying fighter jet attacks deep in Ukrainian territory since April. Destroying the bridges across the Dnieper could severely hit the logistic flow of the Ukrainian army. Cruise missiles alone are not suitable for such attacks, or dozens are necessary for a bridge. Destroying logistics would also create a humanitarian crisis and the Kremlin would like to see a clean war...that's the reason.
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    Post  lancelot Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:16 am

    If Russia really wanted to destroy the bridges they can easily do it with either Kinzhal or Iskander. It is as simple as that.

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    Post  zorobabel Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:22 am

    From the beginning of the war, Russia has not been able to adapt from the war it wanted versus the war that actually exists.

    This explains the most recent failures, namely the collapse on the Kharkov front and the collapse of the Kherson front.

    Whether Ukraine is calling up its 9th or 90th round of conscription is irrelevant. Morale is through the roof on their side, and Ukraine still has millions of able-bodied men to call up.


    For now, Ukraine's focus will be to destroy the Kerch Strait Bridge (somehow) and push south to Berdyansk. Their ability to do so depends on what weapons they get from the US and Russia's use of newly mobilized soldiers. They don't care about the Donbas for the time being, and possibly never.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat Nov 12, 2022 1:50 am

    calripson wrote:

    Putin didn't even use the threat of nuclear war to influence Western public opinion. The Russians went out of their way to avoid it thus negating important leverage. It is not just Putin that deals are currently being cut with; there are plenty of actors behind the scenes positioning for the post-Putin era.

    I don't know if we can completely say thiat. There is a reason we are only seeing technical advisors in Ukraine, why 101 and 82 are in Poland and Rumania but not in the country. There's a big difference between propaganda where CBS talks to 101 Airborne's commander and are told, "we're training to fiight Russia," and "we're in Ukraine fighting Russia!" 101 is training to fight Russia. Its what they and the 82 and every US soldier, sailor, airman, and marine train for from the first day of bootcamp. Its what infantry doctrine, air doctrine, nuclear doctrine, armored warfare, intel, and combined arms warfare doctrine are about and have been since 1945. That they are in Romania is a bit unnerving, but that is more to show their NATO they are serious than it is about committing troops to battle. Again, there's a reason why only mercenaries and technical advisors are in Ukraine and not combat units. Now I know some will say but what about the bean counters the pentagon sent in? File that under technical advisors. They are there to make sure my tax dollars aren't sending stuff to Al Qaeda and ISIS because that is something a lot of Republicans don't like about Biden. They don't mind Nazis under US control having lethal weapons, they don't want ISIS and Al Qaeda type groups getting those. Also, those are probably a lot more instructors and advisors, the same sort who have been in every proxy war since September 1945. Care to guess why?

    Simple, even Biden admits it, he does not want nuclear war. Polish and Baltic crazies might want nuclear war, but a lot of American, British and western European folks are deadset against dying for this. The nuclear card is a reason why the US and UK and Germany have not sent Leopard II, MIA2, F-16s and all to the Ukes. One reason is they don't want to lose markets should Russian armor cause their equipment to lose its mystique, but the other is that may well cross redlines that would cause Putin to launch nukes.

    Putin has gone out of his way to not use nukes because he is not a genocidal war criminal. IF he unleashed hell, and to be fair the US and NATO have done so much crap in the developing world that they deserve hell, and rained down 8,000 warheads on Europe and the US we would retaliate by raining down 8000 of our warheads on him and life in the northern hemisphere becomes a lot less possible than it is currently.

    Nuclear war and the threat of nuclear war is not the card you play now beyond ensuring your foe knows you have nukes and if you f around too much you can rest assured that you will find out. As much as I want Russia to stamp out the Ukronazis and cause our leadership in Washington to return to our pre WWII foreign policy of trade and friendship with all and no entangleing alliances, I know that nuking NATO does not lead to that.

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    Post  VARGR198 Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:30 am

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    Post  billybatts91 Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:40 am

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Nov 12, 2022 2:58 am

    Azi wrote:
    Answer for first point...

    The reason are spies at the highest Ukrainian level. Also, if you take out the lead too quickly, Zelensky would become a martyr like his predecessor Bandera, and the war would still not be over.

    Second point...

    Russia has stopped flying fighter jet attacks deep in Ukrainian territory since April. Destroying the bridges across the Dnieper could severely hit the logistic flow of the Ukrainian army. Cruise missiles alone are not suitable for such attacks, or dozens are necessary for a bridge. Destroying logistics would also create a humanitarian crisis and the Kremlin would like to see a clean war...that's the reason.

    I don't agree with first point , whether he is a martyr or not makes no difference, they need to incapacitate Ukraine, the kid glove bullshit is not working

    Decapitating the leadership works to disrupt control

    And for second point, I also disagree, why tie your own hands to fight a "clean" war?

    There is no such thing as a "clean" war, which is why the idea of "special military operation" is inane

    There's no such thing as a special military operation

    You cannot compel your enemy to do your will, by placing some surgical strikes here and there

    The enemy isn't a weak state which you can just incapacitate with accurate strikes, that much has been seen

    You need to do Grozny on Ukraine, that's how you win,

    Waiting for winter is also going to be negligible

    Ukraine is going to tolerate what it must to survive, and Ukraine is a tough people and tough state

    Logistics has not been disrupted

    You are fighting a state with 40 million people, soviet army heritage and NATO supplies

    This is not a joke- but the leadership is too engulfed in their own fake propaganda

    Too many theatrics have deluded the Kremlin , and they are seriously underestimating the stakes

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    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:29 am

    Azi wrote:
    sundoesntrise wrote:
    You cannot fully explain the Russian mess up in Ukraine without mentioning the political layer of it.

    Two serious questions.

    1. Why hasn't Russia at any point targeted the Ukrainian political+military leadership?

    2. Why hasn't Russia targeted the Ukrainian infrastructure in an effort to hamper the endless resupplying of UAF?
    Answer for first point...

    The reason are spies at the highest Ukrainian level. Also, if you take out the lead too quickly, Zelensky would become a martyr like his predecessor Bandera, and the war would still not be over.

    Second point...

    Russia has stopped flying fighter jet attacks deep in Ukrainian territory since April. Destroying the bridges across the Dnieper could severely hit the logistic flow of the Ukrainian army. Cruise missiles alone are not suitable for such attacks, or dozens are necessary for a bridge. Destroying logistics would also create a humanitarian crisis and the Kremlin would like to see a clean war...that's the reason.

    It would be a humanitarian crisis for NATO as they would go west. They should have hit those bridges with iskanders on day 1.

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    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:31 am

    lancelot wrote:If Russia really wanted to destroy the bridges they can easily do it with either Kinzhal or Iskander. It is as simple as that.

    Well it was and continues to be an incredibly foolish failure on their part to allow their enemy freedom of movement and easy logistics.
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    Post  diabetus Sat Nov 12, 2022 3:31 am

    Erk wrote:
    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:From Mercouris


    He has posted an update already.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzcv1wzsvAY

    He makes comment that Russia has actually jammed missiles from HIMARS launchers.

    Don't believe at all that Himars has been jammed.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:06 am

    zorobabel wrote:From the beginning of the war, Russia has not been able to adapt from the war it wanted versus the war that actually exists.

    This explains the most recent failures, namely the collapse on the Kharkov front and the collapse of the Kherson front.

    Russia's failures were in the beggining, since then however it has more or less fought the war when and where it wants.

    In Kharkov Russian forces were attacked as they were in the process of withdrawing anyway, and in Kherson they also evidently made a decision earlier on to withdraw and did so without issue

    The Ukrainians have attempted to expand the battlefield to the Crimea, Belgorod, etc.. on occasion, but notice that such attempts were one-offs that weren't possible to repeat, or otherwise cost them a great deal in Russian counter-escalation

    And so that leaves the Donbass as where most of the action has been and continues to be. Exactly as Russia publicly declared a focus for back all the way in March.

    Whether Ukraine is calling up its 9th or 90th round of conscription is irrelevant. Morale is through the roof on their side, and Ukraine still has millions of able-bodied men to call up.

    That's the main fault with such Russian withdrawals/manuevers/etc... of giving up territories without a fight. It does indeed bolster enemy morale.
    Russia however doesn't care much about short-term morale boosts for the Ukraine and indeed they are short-term.
    Morale for the Ukrainians was also through the roof after Kharkov but that all faded after a further month of failed assaults against Kherson and other areas whereby they took heavy casualties

    Those millions of able-bodied men left are also left without basic infrastructure or livelihoods yet still have the need to support their families. Which they won't be able to do if they die at the front either. The motivation will be heavy for them to go to Europe and find work there.

    For now, Ukraine's focus will be to destroy the Kerch Strait Bridge (somehow) and push south to Berdyansk. Their ability to do so depends on what weapons they get from the US and Russia's use of newly mobilized soldiers. They don't care about the Donbas for the time being, and possibly never.

    Both goals are rather futile and US-supplied weapons will not change the picture. The later of which I don't doubt will be diversified, including to the ATACMS that they keep publicly denying they're supplying despite no-one having asked for their comment on that issue. Said public denials are instead of course warnings to the Russian side, about what in fact they're prepared to supply to the Ukrainians if X, Y or Z.

    Berdyansk is part of the Russian land-bridge to the Crimea and a vital route, while the Kerch straight bridge is also a supply route to the Crimea. Both are also very defensible.
    The Ukrainians will simply waste their resources in trying, so let them try

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