Russian special military operation in Ukraine #24

caveat emptor wrote:

mr_hd wrote:I am officially Croat although my mother is Serbian - but overall I am Bosnian per my identity which gives me freedom to be neutral about any side and away from it and still connected - which is great comfort to me. The sad truth about picture above is that many Croats are brain washed about war times in Croatia.

Those "liberated" areas are now empty, crumbling regions with jungle growing in the house gardens and only few very old people left. However in the school books is written such a crap - from one ultra nationalistic point of view that new generations, kids born and raised after the war - believe in totally idealized story and do not know that they are brainwashed from early age into fantasy world.

The same system was during Yugoslavia times (Croatian propaganda is just cheaper version of it), we were brainwashed in the history books like partisans were good and all other were bad in the second world war - but real war is not black and white. Even good guys do bad things, war is such a dehumanized jungle that is able to erase all good from people under huge pressure points, it does not matter who is on which side.
Nationalism is the worst result of the Yugoslavia wars and overall all local nationalities are infected with it from Slovenia to Macedonia and with that local political elites are making more easy to rule and hide overall corruption and regression in societies.

And this war/conflict in Ukraine can be seen as parallel to wars in Yugoslavia. I had read one article that comes from the point that USSSR collapse is process that is still not finished - and is making parallel with Yugoslavia region - that is also under such process, still ongoing and unfinished  just the USSSR area is much bigger, countries are larger so process takes much longer compared to Balkan.
It is scary picture, because potential for huge wars is enormous as well as very large tragedies and those flags everywhere in Ukraine but also in Donbass is sign that in that area nationalism will soon take everything like it did in Balkans in 90s.

Sometimes reality is that there are no nice ways out. I am still hoping that Russia will not fall into that trap.

Only significant difference btw Yugoslavian and USSR disintegration is that there were no major wars till now in Ex-USSR. There were smaller conflicts and civil war in Tajikistan, that was very bloody, but nothing even close to current conflict. Considering amount of weapons and size of populations, human toll of this war can easily go into a million or so. If both sides commit. Ukrainians are there, fully commited, and with Russians the jury is still out.
And this is where all parallels stop. Russia is much more dominant in scheme of things than Serbia could ever claim. 
If there is political will in Russia to push, there's no way Ukraine can win.

Backman wrote:Scott Ritters personal show has been pretty good. A new episode just dropped. I usually view things before posting but here it is. In a way, he was right when he got in that argument with Larry Johnson and Gonzalo Lira earlier in the year about the 53 billion in weapons being some kind of game changer. But then again, maybe he wasn't. There was almost nothing defending Kharkov. Literally no professional Russian soldiers.

mnztr wrote:

caveat emptor wrote:
Where, in Kherson? Not nearly enough. First you have to take Nikolaev and go further north. Establish a blocking force towards Zaporozhye and Krivoy Rog, because Ukrainians will counter-attack on the flank. You can't go directly on Odessa, because south of oblast has several big estuaries, first being at Nikolaev and very swampy ground. 
That means you have to cut from the north and, basically, cut it off from rest of Ukraine. How many forces Russians have in Kherson, what do you figure?

Once the border to the west is closed, they will be very hard pressed to fight on, and will probably collapse. in donbass. Once they surrender there, or scuttle back to Kiev that fighting force can be moved and bolstered with armour for the Odessa attack. Odessa can be attacked from 2 directions, but it will probably surrender once the border is closed and evac corridors opened. But shutting of the flow of weapons and ammo and fuel should be the #1 prioirity. Without it they cannot fight on. How the **** here is an oil refinery still operating is a bit of a joke to be honest.

walle83 wrote:

dionis wrote:

Backman wrote:
I'm pro-Russian but come on....we need to face reality here. You're talking about 30 countries + Ukraine vs. Two (Russia and Belarus). They have a lot of money, a lot of people and a lot of sophisticated weaponry. No single country could go up against something like that, I'm just being realistic, that assessment has nothing to do with what has happened in Kharkov recently. Without nukes, Russia would be screwed.

America with draft couldn't deal with Vietnam. The rest of NATO without the US is bleh. It would go nuclear, but that's because that would guarantee parity of life lost, instead of Russia stalemating it with 5x the losses of NATO.

The difference is that the US choose to leave both Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan because of political decisions, it wasnt because the enemy had forced them out with thier military.

flamming_python wrote:

The enemy is not forcing the Russian military out of the Ukraine; that's just Western war propaganda and the desperate desire to publicly declare victory prematurely while offering some kind of deal to Russia quietly. The plan to collapse Russia has failed and they're looking for a way out.
Perhaps Russia is playing along, hence the quips from some figures about negotiations
But I doubt they would offer terms that Russia would agree to

Arkanghelsk wrote:

So you tacitly admit the losers in Moscow have decided to make an agreement ?

Well apparently the terns were already agreed to , Ukraine regained most of its territory

And sanctions won't be lifted,  nor will they respect the security interests of Russia

Instead Medvedev is throwing a fit and a tantrum while we are lectured like a defeated state

Singular_Transform wrote:

Russia have been ready for agreement since 2014.

Never said anything else.

It is the NATO side that doesn't want to make agreemen.

I have to correct myself, they willing to make an agreement about the unconditional surrender of Russia.

Singular_Transform wrote:

I have to correct myself, they willing to make an agreement about the unconditional surrender of Russia.

Arkanghelsk wrote:

Makes no sense at all, and proves that the elites had no idea wtf they were doing

dionis wrote:

Backman wrote:Scott .

Okay so who in the world was guarding it? Not DPR or LPR militia.

Rosgvardia?

Arkanghelsk wrote:

Singular_Transform wrote:

Russia want to make agreemen.

I have to correct myself, they willing to make an agreement about the unconditional surrender of Russia.

What was the point of SMO if they were gonna take it in the ass anyway ?

Just let NATO go in then if they are gonna get the whole country anyway

Makes no sense at all, and proves that the elites had no idea wtf they were doing