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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:46 pm

    That is what you get when you think that you are "exceptional". No rules for Americans it seems.

    They always make it across in the movies... from his perspective the gap would look small... he might not have realised it was not closed.

    The impact into the other part of the bridge probably would have killed him or knocked him unconscious with the impact... going from normal speed to stopped is hard on your body... air bag or no air bag.

    But
    internet "experts" claim that Russians were just throwing their men and equipment away like the Ukrainian side.

    Well they must have done this at least once a week to justify 70K dead Russian soldiers... Rolling Eyes

    Next they will claim that it was the HIMASS system that was "stolen" by Russia.

    Or HighMiss...

    This is the picture being painted for the people who vote on funding and arming Ukraine.

    When you can't admit mistakes you have to double down and go harder... nothing for the US public, but quite painful for the people of Ukraine... but if they don't care why should I...

    Any theories about what Ukrainians will get when Lend Lease starts in September?

    A live concert from Elvis Presley and Roy Orbison...

    Ukrainians were trained and equipped for last 8 years. Who gives a crap, these rag tags won't end doing anything.

    They will be hoping the war ends before they finish their training so they can seek asylum in the countries they were sent to...

    Ukie psy-op designed to stiffen the backs of their orcs in trenches.

    Yeah, cuz this is how the winning side behaves...

    It will work because the conscripts they show the video to wont get the critical scrutiny it is getting on the internet and they will just assume it is true.

    Although rumours I find it difficult to believe if your planning on surrendering why wait 3-4 weeks?

    Makes complete sense... you need to talk to everyone and work out who is going with you and who might shoot you in the back if you try and therefore need to be shot first.

    By looking at their performance, they probably squandered money for training and drank goryachka during it.

    I am more interested in what equipment they will bring

    To be fair... what sort of training teaches soldiers to deal with artillery and air power attacks 24/7...

    This is not the military of the Soviet Union... their helicopters and attack systems work 24/7.

    Yes, it is discussed on other forums too. People have never known that Panzerhaubitze 2000 has this "feature" that it can't handle 100 rounds per day. It was considered the best SPG in the world before Koalitsiya was introduced by Russia...

    Ironic as some criticism of new Russian stuff was often directed at them being great for air shows and parades but no good for real conflicts.

    Obviously the western response to this will be that German artillery in German service will hit 100 Russian targets a day with a single shot and the Russians will run out of vehicles before the German guns are worn out...

    The case with ZSU family is a lack of proper ammo. And lack of proper ammo is due to the round size limits. You cant resolve that. Plus as it was effective against soft-skinned, low-flying aircraft, next-generation planes started to fly faster&higher, while choppers became more and more resistant.

    To be fair it is still very effective, but not against very small targets like drones or incoming missiles... the point is that in Soviet and Russian service it was never intended to operate on its own, it was always intended to operate with SA-9 and then SA-13 vehicle in a gun and missile regiment, while the other AD regiment had OSA and then the vastly more capable TOR. When the TOR started replacing the OSA, the Tunguska started replacing the Shilka and SA-13...

    Now that they have command detonated 30mm shells the Tunguska should be very effective against small drone targets and missiles, as well as heavier aircraft... of course the missiles will kill at much greater ranges than 35mm shells will... but then the 2S38 is on the way as well bringing the 57mm back.

    All the mods made in years were hardly serial, and that applies to Russian, Belarusian, and Polish ones. You can count the number of modified pieces with two hands in total...
    I guess the most extensive modernization of Shilkas was performed in countries like Cuba and Vietnam.

    Spending too much money on a platform that is being phased out doesn't make a lot of sense... upgrades to keep relevant and be cheaper to maintain make sense but massive upgrades not really value for money.

    Probably the cheapest and most sensible upgrades would be take out the four 23mm cannon and install a single twin barrel 2A38M cannon and some SOSNA/Pine SAMs with a new EO ball turret...

    A similar towed mount for the 30mm cannon could replace the ZU-23-2 which would allow the 23 x 152mm calibre to be removed from the inventory...

    Russia’s use of air-launched anti-ship missiles with only and limited secondary land-attack capability to attempt to strike Ukrainian targets suggests its dedicated land-attack cruise missile inventory is running low.

    Not at all... when the Russians worked with the Indians on the Brahmos... essentially a modified Yakhont for the Indians, they added full land attack capacity to what used to be essentially an anti ship missile. It seems that that experience led to them modifying all their anti ship missiles to add land attack capacity... including all their missiles like Kh-35 and the heavy ship launched missiles too like Granit and Vulcan. The Kh-22M and the Kh-32 launched from Tu-22M3s were already land attack capable as the Tu-22M3 is a strike platform for land and sea targets.

    Even Russia wasn't successful in exporting the Sukhoi Superjet 100 because the PowerJet SaM146 engine was being designed jointly with France and the latter ensured that Superjet won't be able to rival Airbus.

    Superjet incorporated western components specifically to make it appeal to customers who already had such items in their inventory... the current split with Europe means all Russian designed and made planes will become the priority going forward.

    Airbus and Boeing are not going to lose market share for a long period of time.

    Actually Boeing and Airbus had factories and facilities in Russia making all sorts of bits and pieces and used Russian titanium components in their aircraft and designs... most of the titanium that goes in to the F-35 comes from Russia... the last lot of sanctions the EU announced included rollbacks of sanctions against a Russian company that makes steel because they were worried that same company that makes titanium parts for western aircraft engines might sanction them back...

    The market is going to be shitty for the next few years anyway... oversupply of planes and so many fired workers they will need to replace as travel returns to what it returns to.

    It is the normal state of roads in Ukraine for many years. So for the locals it is nothing new

    The locals were probably astounded that the holes from the last attack were fixed... the last 30 years in the Ukraine probably has not seen a lot of money spent on their road quality... especially in that part of the country...

    I recall that Soviet/Russian guns have several thousand round lifetimes. NATzO weapons are not going to be any better in this regard.

    Last number I remember seeing was something like 2,500 rounds for a 152mm calibre gun before it needed replacement because the rifling would be gone and accuracy would drop.

    Ironically with the fuse mounted guidance kit a smoothbore barrel would work just fine so you could probably keep using it in that case... till the barrel blows of course.

    But this sort of terrorism is not going to save the Kiev regime. It will not even slow down the Russian campaign.

    Might make a few realise who wants them dead to send some message to the west about how loyal they are... might cause even more internal division... when you know your leaders are sending you to death and if you surrender they will kill you from behind... maybe shooting them when their backs are turned is the best solution... then you can surrender safely...

    At the time South Africa had some of the best artillery pieces (G-5/G-6) but they lost the ability to manufacture replacement barrels. Most of these pieces are now in storage. Even the basic service rifle can't be serviced properly anymore, but we do have some of the biggest potholes.

    I am hoping BRICS can drag South Africa up out of the hole it is in and get it on to a better road for all its people...

    It lacks the engagement envelope. I guess that sooner or later, all will just end up as ground support vehicles as you said.

    The Soviets and the Russians use the ZU-23-2 the way the US uses 50 cal HMG... but it is so much more than a 50 cal HMG.

    On gate guard duty and even against light armoured vehicles it is a very very powerful system...

    The core problem as you say is of course that its replacement is in the process of being supplanted in some roles.

    For the Soviets and the Russians there is not a huge distinction between an air defence gun and a fire support gun... during WWII the best anti tank guns were often AA guns like the 88mm German and the 85mm Soviet guns, but 20mm cannon were used against infantry attacks, and as the task of the air defence guns got harder the solution till the 1970s was smaller and smaller calibres with higher rates of fire... when the ZSU-57-2 was made obsolete by fast flying jets they were still using 14.5mm KPV HMGs very effectively against all sorts of air targets.

    We complain that a 23mm gun only has an effective range of 2.5km, but the towed mounts are actually rather hard to spot and 14.5mm HMGs even harder so stumbling in to their kill zone is actually quite likely... in the ground support role they are devastating.

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    billybatts91
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    Post  billybatts91 Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:13 pm

    In China-Taiwan news -

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:19 pm

    When NATzO forces run down their stocks of expiring weapons (e.g. by sending them to Ukria) it is called being smart.
    But when Russia does the same, it is called Russia running out of weapons. Tiresome to listen to this drivel. Russia should
    use every freaking missile rotting in storage that it has. All such equipment has a shelf life. Maybe a bar of gold can sit
    on a shelf until the shelf and the building crumble away and the continents rearrange themselves and until the Earth is
    swallowed by our Sun in its red giant phase.

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    Post  limb Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:36 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    limb wrote:

    Why are they all T-72s? Did Ukraine capture that many russian tanks? How many T-72Bs did Ukraine have before the war?
    Obviously this is botched crossing in Belogorovka. It was known feom before that part of the equipment was Ukrainian. But, mostly Russian.

    Maybe, but how many T-72Bs did the AFU operate or have in storage before the war?
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    Post  Mir Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:49 pm

    limb wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:
    limb wrote:

    Why are they all T-72s? Did Ukraine capture that many russian tanks? How many T-72Bs did Ukraine have before the war?
    Obviously this is botched crossing in Belogorovka. It was known feom before that part of the equipment was Ukrainian. But, mostly Russian.

    Maybe, but how many T-72Bs did the AFU operate or have in storage before the war?  

    According to ISS (2021) Ukraine had 100 T-72AV/B1's and 33 T-72AMT's in service with a further 500 T-72's in storage.

    It can be mentioned that they did offer T-72's with Kontakt5 ERA on the export market.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:13 pm

    kvs wrote:When NATzO forces run down their stocks of expiring weapons (e.g. by sending them to Ukria) it is called being smart.
    But when Russia does the same, it is called Russia running out of weapons.   Tiresome to listen to this drivel.   Russia should
    use every freaking missile rotting in storage that it has.   All such equipment has a shelf life.   Maybe a bar of gold can sit
    on a shelf until the shelf and the building crumble away and the continents rearrange themselves and until the Earth is
    swallowed by our Sun in its red giant phase.


    They are dumb enough to think Russia will loose all its army, soldiers, weapons stocks, oil/gas and industries after this little war so they beleive they don't need any stock and its better to send it in ukraine.

    I wachted a documentary about french cesars canon. They need 8 months to build one. They gave 1/3 to Ukraine and more this months. French army will be left with few tens of pieces of the only artillery they use and will need years to replace the one given. Pathetic loosers are leading western world but its seems their end is nearby. No one suppirt them. They will fall like arab government during the arab springs. Probably in the next winter when they will see tge result of the energy crisis.

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:43 pm

    Well, well rumour has it that Lithuania has blocked the bank used for transit payments and will claim nothing can pass to Kaliningrad because Russia can't pay for it.

    If true they seem determined to piss off both Moscow and Brussels, but keep their masters in DC happy.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Sat Jul 30, 2022 4:55 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Well, well rumour has it that Lithuania has blocked the bank used for transit payments and will claim nothing can pass to Kaliningrad because Russia can't pay for it.

    If true they seem determined to piss off both Moscow and Brussels, but keep their masters in DC happy.

    They will stop existing soon so who cares. Moscow will make them pay their attempt to blocus Kaliningrad.

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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:36 pm

    Belisarius wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Img_2049
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Img_2050
    The video of the "Russian" soldier castrating the Ukrainian soldier has been revealed as a fake
    The sneakers that the alleged perpetrator wears were only given to the Ukrainian army in limited quantity, not to the Russians
    Besides, why would a Russian soldier wear sneakers that have the color pattern of the Ukrainian flag?
    And why are they all wearing Ukrainian camo pattern uniform?
    https://t.me/svobodadonbass/2564?single
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy58g510
    Wearing the wrong shirt, too.

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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:38 pm

    kvs wrote:
    xeno wrote:Yes, it is discussed on other forums too. People have never known that Panzerhaubitze 2000 has this "feature" that it can't handle 100 rounds per day. It was considered the best SPG in the world before Koalitsiya was introduced by Russia...

    Peculiar for the discussion to not refer to its rated total number of rounds.   All howitzers have a rather short life given the intensity of their use
    in Ukria.   It is hard to tell if this wear and tear is normal or abnormal.   Sounds to me like a bunch of wunderwaffen fetishists are surprised
    that guns wear out and fast.

    I recall that Soviet/Russian guns have several thousand round lifetimes.   NATzO weapons are not going to be any better in this regard.

    That´s why Russia is bringing in new guns from time to time. "Used" guns can be brought to the rear and their barrels refurbished or changed.

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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:40 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy6npo10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy504l10
    Colonel Obvious  Rolling Eyes

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Scree418
    A TV-guided weapon (Izd. 305?) filming the impact of a colleague seconds before hitting the building behind.  thumbsup

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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:41 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy3yhw10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy3yhw11
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Fy3yhw12
    Russian soldiers winning "hearts and minds". According to unnamed sources Pres. Biden likes this pics.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:54 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:

    but but but Kherson was cut off and the offensive was going to take Crimea, the Ukrainian general staff and CNN said so. . . .

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    Post  RTN Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:Not at all... when the Russians worked with the Indians on the Brahmos... essentially a modified Yakhont for the Indians, they added full land attack capacity to what used to be essentially an anti ship missile. It seems that that experience led to them modifying all their anti ship missiles to add land attack capacity.
    Who gives you such third rated information? There is no big deal in modifying an AShM into a land attack cruise missile. A secondary feature of almost all Russian & NATO AShM is land attack capability. Just the midcourse navigation has to be changed. The Yakhont missile will still use the monopulse seeker that provides a dual mode active and passive anti-radiation homing capability.
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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:38 pm

    Russian investigative committee working in Mariupol to collect physical evidence and eyewitness accounts of VSU and Azov atrocities against civilians:



    Lots and lots of construction going on to provide new homes for those displaced:



    Metalworker's/Miners Day, 11 days ago, Mariupol also:

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    Post  Krepost Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:04 pm

    One of the Buyan-M ships.
    Each star is for a successful strike on target.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Img-2011

    The Veliky Ustyug which is normally part of the Caspian Flotilla is in St. Petersburg for the Nvy day parade.
    The stars on this unit are more likely to be all for strikes in Syria,.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 30-10910


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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:41 pm

    Dr.Snufflebug wrote:Russian investigative committee working in Mariupol to collect physical evidence and eyewitness accounts of VSU and Azov atrocities against civilians:



    And for added context. How it began when the VSU stormed the city with armored vehicles and started killing anti-Kiev protesters and random civilians en masse, back in 2014.

    "Our government is killing us"



    After that onslaught, the VSU and the Azov nazi batallion took full control of the city and started terrorizing people, forcing them into submission, torturing and killing any detractors.

    They had been at it for 8 years, until Russia intervened in full this year.

    But even back then, it was very odd how western media went completely silent about it almost immediately, so all we have are these very initial reports. Well, we have plenty of stuff from the "evil" side of course, but that never reaches western consumers, it was quickly branded as being evil propaganda even though it's basically just the logical continuation of these early reports.

    Frightening to be honest, how skewing/cherrypicking, lying by omission and simply outright lying has characterized western coverage of this 8 year long conflict. The average Joe is woefully uninformed, or rather, amazingly misinformed.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:09 pm

    ucmvulcan wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:

    but but but Kherson was cut off and the offensive was going to take Crimea, the Ukrainian general staff and CNN said so. . . .


    Russia isn't going on any offensive in the south by august 5

    That would stretch their frontline even wider and they don't exactly have tons of free troops in Ukraine right now.

    You would see huge columns of men and gear being sent at that point as they would need to move thousands of more troops into Ukraine for an offense like that.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:11 pm

    RTN wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Not at all... when the Russians worked with the Indians on the Brahmos... essentially a modified Yakhont for the Indians, they added full land attack capacity to what used to be essentially an anti ship missile. It seems that that experience led to them modifying all their anti ship missiles to add land attack capacity.
    Who gives you such third rated information? There is no big deal in modifying an AShM into a land attack cruise missile. A secondary feature of almost all Russian & NATO AShM is land attack capability. Just the midcourse navigation has to be changed. The Yakhont missile will still use the monopulse seeker that provides a dual mode active and passive anti-radiation homing capability.

    Off topic, but... Do ship carried anti-aircraft missiles have a secondary anti-ship capability?
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    Post  RTN Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:19 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Off topic, but... Do ship carried anti-aircraft missiles have a secondary anti-ship capability?
    You can use them in an anti ship role, but won't make much of a difference. The warhead and fuel tank are too small.
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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:24 pm

    At least the naval Buk/Shtil missile of the Adm. Grigorovich can be used against sea or even land targets.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Img-2010
    The stars are for "missions" and the numbers inside them show the number of launched missiles/targets hit.

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    Post  Hole Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:26 pm

    Dr. Snufflebug wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Scree419
    She is a miner?  Very Happy
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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:58 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Dr. Snufflebug wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Scree419
    She is a miner?  Very Happy

    Ask her. Smile

    Quite poignant, the display of western weapons on the sideline of that little festival. "These are the things they were supplied with to kill us".



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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:37 pm

    RTN wrote:Russia’s use of air-launched anti-ship missiles with only and limited secondary land-attack capability to attempt to strike Ukrainian targets suggests its dedicated land-attack cruise missile inventory is running low.

    It's either doing the same thing as in Syria - testing out its inventory under different conditions and against different targets

    Or its simply rotating the types of missiles used to give production a chance to replenish the most frequently used ones

    In either case it's nothing alarming for Russia

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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:42 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    RTN wrote:Russia’s use of air-launched anti-ship missiles with only and limited secondary land-attack capability to attempt to strike Ukrainian targets suggests its dedicated land-attack cruise missile inventory is running low.

    No it doesn't, it suggests that it's doing the same thing as in Syria - testing out its inventory under different conditions and against different targets

    If it was running low of missiles it would launch less of them and rely more on airstrikes

    Certain western correspondents present in Nikolaev are on record saying that the Russians struck the Nikolaev area alone with some 130 cruise missiles over the past two weeks, and that their accuracy was scary (hitting supposedly 'secret' arms warehouses, troop quarters etc, suggesting that the Russians possess a lot of insider intel).

    So no, they're not running out of them, and no, they are not being inaccurate. Kiev claims otherwise, always, but that's another thing. Usually Kiev says that some blind children's orphanage was hit (deliberately, of course, too, the terrible accuracy of Russian weapons magically disappears when they go after kids or kittens) and most western media parrots it without a second thought, but a couple of days later stuff starts trickling in about Ukrainian military people who by sheer coincidence just happened to have died at the exact same time at the exact same location. Hm, eh?

    It rapidly looks quite bizarre, all of it, but yeah - see my earlier comments on how western media typically operates.


    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug on Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:20 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21 - Page 32 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #21

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